Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

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Random question of curiosity though, does he get anything for Gengar? And now that I'm thinking about it, the only Ghosts used in OU are Aegislash, Gengar, Trevenant and Gourgeist, and all of them resist ground.

It gets Payback, although that's really weak. It could also use Wild Charge for Gengar, but eh. Also, Aegislash is weak to Ground, it doesn't resist it.

Other than that I'll refrain from posting about Diggersby since I have never used it.

Also iirc it was stated before that an A- Rank would not exist.
 
I'd view Normal/Ground as alright offensively and completely abysmal defensively. It's weak to Fighting, Grass, Ice and Water, which amounts to a weakness to four different priority moves with no resistances to any priority and all of those (Grass less so) are common attacking types. Plus, anything that outpaces 78 base speed that can take a Quick Attack kinda stop it in it's tracks.
Random question of curiosity though, does he get anything for Gengar? And now that I'm thinking about it, the only Ghosts used in OU are Aegislash, Gengar, Trevenant and Gourgeist, and all of them resist ground.
I would say it's abysmal. Resistances to Rock, immunity to Electric and Ghost, being immune to Thunder Wave. It has common weaknesses yes, but Diggersby has the ability to threaten pokemon that have super effective moves against him into switching in with a powerful Return or Earthquake. That's what makes Diggersby B rank. It's not only that it can destroy things with quick attack if it gets an SD up, but it can heavily punish others pokes for switching into it. A lot of it is prediction, but predicting right can lead to great gains. I'm not arguing for Diggersby to be A rank, it certainly has it's crippling flaws, one being speed like you mentioned, but it fufills a good niche in OU that others can't and for that I consider it a B rank.

ScraftyIsTheBest They said there wouldn't be an A- rank unless the A rank got crowded, and right now, the A rank looks pretty crowded.
 
Garchomp and Mega Garchomp aren't A+. Garchomp isn't nearly as speedy as he used to be, Togekiss is immune to his dual stab and still struggles to hit Skarmory. Additionally, Chomp still can't take an ice type attack and the buff to Will-O-Wisp(along with its users like Rotom rising in popularity) doesn't help either.

Mega Garchomp swaps out Garchonps speed and makes him even slower forcing him to become more of a bulky attacker. Mega Chomp does hold the advantage of being able to severely hurt Skarmory but is too slow and its weakness to ice is ultimately its downfall. I nominate Mega Chomp for for A tier(A- if it existed) and normal Garchomp for for B+ tier or maybe I'm being too harsh and he should be an A.
 
Since we seem to have run out of discussion a slight bit, I would like to make a proposal moving Zygarde to B+

People are gonna immediately say: "oh wow its just an inferior garchomp noob it has espeed and dd thats it."
What often goes ignored is his best trait, Coil. DD zygarde sucks unless it's in UU, and you need extremespeed is just trash. Examine:

+2 252+ Atk Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 221-261 (77.2 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's just pitiful. If somehow you even get to +2 with dd, you still can't even take out something frail like greninja. Don't waste your time with espeed on this guy.

Instead, use coil. Along with outstanding bulk, great STABs, good speed, and a factor of surpise, a sub-coil set is what really makes this guy shine.
He can set up a sub on several things thanks to his great 95 base speed, allowing him to outspeed practically anything defensive, and from there he can coil up to become an even greater threat. Now, that probably sounds really unimpressive, but there are two main reasons to really even consider him:

1) He lures in and sets up on rotom-w
Let's be honest, if you have a defensive rotom-w at a good amount of health and you see a zygarde, chances are that's your switch-in. But alas, the sub-coil set naturally outspeeds and sets up a sub on rotom-w.
"Well, it has hydro pump to break the sub, duh. Zygarde can't set up on it >_>"

But feast your eyes on this:
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 93-109 (22.1 - 25.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's right! Rotom-w's hydro pump can't usually even break the sub! You need to get super high rolls, add to that 80 acc, the fact that they almost always try to WoW first, and you have yourself a great oppurtunity to do big damage. Keep in mind that rotom-w is the most used pokemon atm and the defensive sets are the most common.

"Well the common mandibuzz can just come in, not give a shit about anything and just whirlwind it out, duh >_>"
Which leads me to my next point

2) A fast dragon tail prevents phazing.
That's right! Since zygarde is faster than most phazers, and dragon tail/storm throw/roar/whirlwind are all in the same priority bracket, speed comes in to play on who gets phazed first, meaning that mandibuzz, hippowdon, and skarmory can't get rid of your boosts!
Honestly, this set almost has an unfair advantage against defensive teams; you can come in on chansey, you threaten heatran out, you beat rotom-w, and you can just set up on those guys and go to goddamn town. Taunt is really the only thing defensive teams can do to this guy, and he outspeeds a lot of taunt users too.

For reference/stealing, here's the set. Not too complicated really.
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Coil
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake

I'll throw in some replays too
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-75173589 clean 6-0
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-74361279 The best a defensive team can do. You have to really catch skarm with eq on the roost...
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-74332537 More defensive team destruction
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-76817611

There are a way more replays that I just forgot to actually save, hopefully this captures that he's not complete trash.
His teammates need to pick up the slack against heavily offensive teams, but he's literally unfair against defensive teams

The definition of a B rank pokemon:
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Zygarde can sweep through significant portions if you let it set up enough, and you can usually grab 2 boosts + a sub if you get to set up on rotom-w, and trust me, you will. He has flaws that prevent him from doing so, however, the presence of fairies like sylveon that can 2hko through the sub and togekiss who completely walls this set are both big problems.

However, I don't think any other pokemon can boast to set up on rotom-w and destroy teams afterwards quite well like he does. He isn't really outperformed by any other pokemon in the luring and taking advantage of rotom-w, which is his dangerous niche. Kyu-b comes close, but it can easily be forced out afterwards by tyranitar, scizor, and such, but zygarde is not easy to force out. Even IF he's taunted, it won't do you much good if he's at +2/+3 smacking your team with eq's and forcing switches with dtail.

Other than his fairy flaws and general uselessness against all out offense, he's very dangerous, and he definitely doesn't belong in B for his potential.
I would go as far as to suggest A-, but he's not good enough to be A and A- isn't a thing yet, so for now, Zygarde for B+
 
List on agreed ranks for pokes: (Past 10-15 pages or so?)

Kyurem-B: A -----> A+
Celebi: unranked -----> B
Moltres: unranked -----> C
Mega Pinsir: A+ -----> S
Mega Charizard X: A+ -----> S
Crawdaunt: Unranked -----> C+
Lucario: Unranked -----> B-
Skarmory: B+ -----> A
Mega Aerodactyl: Unranked -----> B+
Volcarona: Unranked -----> A

Diggersby convo: So have we agreed on bumping him up to B-? The majority does.
 
List on agreed ranks for pokes: (Past 10-15 pages or so?)

Kyurem-B: A -----> A+
Celebi: unranked -----> B
Moltres: unranked -----> C
Mega Pinsir: A+ -----> S
Mega Charizard X: A+ -----> S
Crawdaunt: Unranked -----> C+
Lucario: Unranked -----> B-
Skarmory: B+ -----> A
Mega Aerodactyl: Unranked -----> B+
Volcarona: Unranked -----> A

Diggersby convo: So have we agreed on bumping him up to B-? The majority does.

Eh, I got out majority voted, so I don't have a say anymore.
 
List on agreed ranks for pokes: (Past 10-15 pages or so?)

Kyurem-B: A -----> A+
Celebi: unranked -----> B
Moltres: unranked -----> C
Mega Pinsir: A+ -----> S
Mega Charizard X: A+ -----> S
Crawdaunt: Unranked -----> C+
Lucario: Unranked -----> B-
Skarmory: B+ -----> A
Mega Aerodactyl: Unranked -----> B+
Volcarona: Unranked -----> A

Diggersby convo: So have we agreed on bumping him up to B-? The majority does.

We also have:

Zapdos: B ---> B+
Ferrothorn: A ---> B+
Mega Medicham: A ---> B+ or B
Galvantula: B- ---> C+ or lower
Rotom-H ---> B+ (also mentioned many pages ago)
 
List on agreed ranks for pokes: (Past 10-15 pages or so?)

Kyurem-B: A -----> A+
Celebi: unranked -----> B
Moltres: unranked -----> C
Mega Pinsir: A+ -----> S
Mega Charizard X: A+ -----> S
Crawdaunt: Unranked -----> C+
Lucario: Unranked -----> B-
Skarmory: B+ -----> A
Mega Aerodactyl: Unranked -----> B+
Volcarona: Unranked -----> A

Diggersby convo: So have we agreed on bumping him up to B-? The majority does.

U forgot Hydreigon: Unranked -----> B
 
We also have:

Zapdos: B ---> B+
Ferrothorn: A ---> B+
Mega Medicham: A ---> B+ or B
Galvantula: B- ---> C+ or lower
Rotom-H ---> B+ (also mentioned many pages ago)

I don't think we agreed on a specific rank for Galvantula, but I think C is mid-way
Mega Medicham has been discussed/agreed upon enough.

The rest are right though.
 
Nothing on recent pages; there was quite a bit of talk about it for B about 20~30 pages back and it was on sidakarya's list that epicdrill was reposting every page prior to the OP being updated.
Yeah, you're right. I was a bit more interested in the Chansey arguments back then to notice.
 
I support all the nominations including Zygarde for B+ but think

Galvantula for C (Most arguments are for how good Sticky Web is rather than Galvantula itself, I think C is more than fair)
Volcarona for A- (It needs certain team support because it has several very hard counters that are quite common.)

I also nominated:

Tornadus-T for B-
Hitmontop for C
Chesnaught for B-
Roserade for B-


http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-viability-ranking-thread.3495992/page-112

Would like to see some discussion.
 
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There's actually a lot of A rank pokes that can fit into an A- category if it's made. A quick look reveals Gengar, Latios, Greninja, Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Mega Medicham can all be demoted from A rank to A-, while Skarmory, Clefable, and Zapdos all make good candidates to be promoted to A-

Willing to provide arguments/explanations for all of the above but that aside, I believe an A- rank should be made since A, A+, and even S are going to look too crowded.
 
Kyurem-B: A -----> A+
Celebi: unranked -----> B
Moltres: unranked -----> C
Mega Pinsir: A+ -----> S
Mega Charizard X: A+ -----> S
Crawdaunt: Unranked -----> C+
Lucario: Unranked -----> B-
Skarmory: B+ -----> A
Mega Aerodactyl: Unranked -----> B+
Volcarona: Unranked -----> A
Diggersby: C+ -----> B-
Rotom-H: Unranked -----> B+
Galvuntula: B- -----> C
Hydreigon: Unranked -----> B
Zapdos: B -----> B+

These are the pokemon that have been discussed and agreed uopn.
I didn't see an argument about Ferrothorn to B+ rank, and if there is, I'm pretty sure not many people have agreed. Cuz I didn't see anything.
 
Calm Mind / Fire Blast / Moonblast / Soft-Boiled, Life Orb, 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA, Bold Nature

I have tried the set above, pretty damn good.

Cosmic Power / Charge Beam or Moonblast / Stored Power / Soft Boiled, Leftovers, 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD

Didn't try it.

Heal Bell / Wish / Protect / Toxic

or something like that, basically cleric.

Or all-out attack LO or Soft Boiled 3 attacks or Specs.
 
It also has two amazing abilities, both of which could work in any one of those sets above (except LO with Unaware lol). Magic Guard means immune to SR, Toxic which is nice, and Unaware lets you stop a lot of boosting sweepers (Volcarona, Manaphy, Dragonite, and so on)
 
I'm actually very curious: what set are people running that makes Clefable a B/A threat?
I generally use this set for a CM sweeper:

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Modest
252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
-Calm Mind
-Fire Blast
-Moonblast
-Thunderbolt

Or you could go fully defensive with this one:

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Calm
252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 SpA
-Moonblast
-Cosmic Power/Calm Mind
-Softboiled Moonlight
-Toxic

I suppose you could run either Unaware or Magic Guard on the defensive set, but I find that Unaware helps more so that you can wear down boosting sweepers while they set up, or set up on them.

Edit: Moonlight instead of Softboiled if Softboiled is illegal with Unaware.
 
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Another support for Volcanrona to A, it seems that it is really getting underestimated due to the 4* SR weakness, while in fact so many things in this generation is actually going right for it.
 
Rotom-H: Unranked -----> B+
This is not agreed upon at all.
Rotom-H for B+ - Rotom-H is one highly unique pokemon that has many things going for it that put it in competition with Rotom-W that can make it a viable alternative. Defensively, Rotom-H actually beats Rotom-W for number of resistances, trading a weakness to Grass for a weakness to Water and Rock while resisting Bug, Fairy, Electric and Grass on top of it. Rotom-H resists every one of Genesect's common attacks by itself which is impressive and threatens with Overheat. Also unlike Wash, Heat's Fire typing means it has an immunity to Burn on top of Paralysis. Combined with Ferrothorn that's an immunity to all the common status types if not counting Hypnosis. Fire/Electric STABs are amazing for coverage with good power. It's downsides are that because of Rotom-W itself and Stealth Rock it doesn't get as many switch in opportunities as it could. Still, choice sets are particularly dangerous with Volt Turn, Overheat and Trick at the least, either causing major damage or gimping something particularly hard. For its unique niche and only requiring nominal team support at best I think B+ is a very fair grade.
Nominal support. Sure. Who cares about number of resistances when you're weak to SR. It goes from being an okay Greninja check to murdered by it, and can't take a Stone Edge for its life (common coverage). Those are nice resistances, and Rotom-H has merit in handling Genesect nicely, but it's even less complicated to wear down than Rotom-W, and falters against many other OU threats. For these reasons, I can't see Rotom-H above B-.

Okay this list:
Kyurem-B: A -----> A+
Celebi: unranked -----> B
Moltres: unranked -----> C
Mega Pinsir: A+ -----> S
Mega Charizard X: A+ -----> S
Crawdaunt: Unranked -----> C+
Lucario: Unranked -----> B-
Skarmory: B+ -----> A
Mega Aerodactyl: Unranked -----> B+
Volcarona: Unranked -----> A
Diggersby: C+ -----> B-
Rotom-H: Unranked -----> B+
Galvuntula: B- -----> C
Hydreigon: Unranked -----> B
Zapdos: B -----> B+
Like idk why you're putting Hydreigon in B, it really isn't that good, or Celebi in B, when it's barely good at all in the current metagame and overshadowed by Mega Venusaur. Is Volcarona even A? I'm inclined to think B+, or A- if that exists in the future.

There's also stuff everyone's ignored. For example, alexwolf proposed Politoed for A, Slowbro for B+ (I think B tbh, but that's arguable), Dugtrio for C+/B- (probably the former), Crawdaunt for C+/B- (the latter imo), and Tornadus-T for B+ -- all excellent points.

Dice proposed Diggersby for B (where it belongs imo). I proposed Mega Absol for B-, Entei for B-, Sylveon for B+, Jellicent for B-, Krookodile for B-, Vaporeon for B, and Kyurem for B (could be like B- I think).

Of this list, I think Kyurem-B, Moltres, Mega Pinsir, Mega Charizard X, Lucario, Skarmory, Galvantula, and Zapdos are conclusive. The others are too up in the air (like Megadactyl in B+, that's ridiculous).
 
Perhaps suggesting B+ for Mega Dactyl is a bit iffy, but I can still see it there. Aside from Terrakion, this is one of the fastest Rock-type attackers, and Rock STAB plugs a boatload of offensive Pokemon for solid damage. Hone Claws ups its threat level to eleven, and Tough Claws elemental fangs or Aqua Tail (or even Aerial Ace lol) makes switching into Mega Aero a very tricky proposition; many Rock resists or even bulky walls in general face a good chance of getting smacked by SE coverage. I would say Hone Claws Stone Edge makes for good sweeping material, but being weak to Aqua Jet and Bullet Punch sucks a lot. It does resist Brave Bird and Extreme Speed though so it still has that going for it. However, it doesn't resist very much, so setting up that Hone Claws can be tricky, though Mega Aero can make use of its blistering Speed to scare stuff out. Maybe B is more generous for it.
 
ive been seeig some people attempting to tell me diggersby does some things better than mega pinsir. While this is true for SR weakness, for anything else, it is not.

Regarding SD diggersby

Diggersby like really struggles to ever get an SD up. most things hit it too hard for it to SD, or wall it too hard. SDing is very risky and normally should only be used upon predicting a switch, even then its riskiy.

SD Pinsir on the other hand takes psyical hits way better, and scares way more out, so SDing isnt as hard.

Diggersby, regardless for quick attack, is too slow. Anything living its QA is probs gonna own it, and anything fatser with priority (Mega Lucario :)) is going to end diggersbys life. While Mega Pinsir is weak to brave bird, keep in mind fighting priority can be found on multiplr pokemon.

Mega Pinsir is way faster. This is good, meaning it can outspeed and killl way more than diggersby can. It also actully has a very powerfull QA and Return thanks to Aerialate, and is likley to me killing alot.

I also hate how diggersby is easily worn down. Remember the LO argument? well, if Diggersby needs LO to wear down threats, and Mega Pinsir doesnt need LO to have boosted power on its return, it means the LO is wearing down diggersby so OHKOing it is easier, while mega pinsir never has this issue. Diggersby faces the problem where its CB set is done almost entirely better (argue against this, you havent yet) by azumarril, and its SD set is done almost entirley better by mega pinisr. Its has a unique agility set, but thats quite bad.

C rank for Diggersby.
 
ive been seeig some people attempting to tell me diggersby does some things better than mega pinsir. While this is true for SR weakness, for anything else, it is not.

Regarding SD diggersby

Diggersby like really struggles to ever get an SD up. most things hit it too hard for it to SD, or wall it too hard. SDing is very risky and normally should only be used upon predicting a switch, even then its riskiy.

SD Pinsir on the other hand takes psyical hits way better, and scares way more out, so SDing isnt as hard.

Diggersby, regardless for quick attack, is too slow. Anything living its QA is probs gonna own it, and anything fatser with priority (Mega Lucario :)) is going to end diggersbys life. While Mega Pinsir is weak to brave bird, keep in mind fighting priority can be found on multiplr pokemon.

Mega Pinsir is way faster. This is good, meaning it can outspeed and killl way more than diggersby can. It also actully has a very powerfull QA and Return thanks to Aerialate, and is likley to me killing alot.

I also hate how diggersby is easily worn down. Remember the LO argument? well, if Diggersby needs LO to wear down threats, and Mega Pinsir doesnt need LO to have boosted power on its return, it means the LO is wearing down diggersby so OHKOing it is easier, while mega pinsir never has this issue. Diggersby faces the problem where its CB set is done almost entirely better (argue against this, you havent yet) by azumarril, and its SD set is done almost entirley better by mega pinisr. Its has a unique agility set, but thats quite bad.

C rank for Diggersby.
To add to this, Scarf Diggs is outclassed by Scarf Lando-T.
 
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