Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[You_Lose]

Sorry if this was mentioned earlier, but was Breloom left out on purpose? Technician mach punch + spore anyone?

 

[114]

I'm not sure how against-the-rules this would be, but an interesting discussion would be to think what would happen to the S tier if/when mega lucario and genesect leave.

I think we'll see M-Pinsir immediately move to S rank. Even talonflame I think we'll see move up to S. Also predicting a surge in KyuB. Honestly I do see M-Venu moving down to A+, especially since it was an check to both sect and m-luc. Exciting changes

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

I'm not sure how against-the-rules this would be, but an interesting discussion would be to think what would happen to the S tier if/when mega lucario and genesect leave.

I think we'll see M-Pinsir immediately move to S rank. Even talonflame I think we'll see move up to S. Honestly I do see M-Venu moving down to A+, especially since it was an check to both sect and m-luc. Exciting changes

That discussion will be made when or if they get banned. There's no need to start talking about it now anyways.

Also, MLuke should go, Genesect is completely fine in OU imo.

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

The one problem with Volcarona this gen is Azumaril, Talonflame, and M-Pinsir exist to ruin it's day. Even Physically defensive Volca is destroyed.
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcarona: 404-476 (108 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcarona: 186-218 (49.7 - 58.2%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcarona: 468-552 (125.1 - 147.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcarona: 152-180 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcarona: 300-354 (80.2 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And it's still got those issues with Stealth Rock and Spikes. Not only that, but it can't really take advantage of Sun for extra damage anymore (and even if it could, Megazard Y does it better). I guess Flame Body is cool for burning it's potential threats, but that often comes at the cost of the Volcarona, in which case you might as well have used focus sash Shedinja. Still, it's the best at what it does, which is setting up Quiver Dance and destroying everything not named Talonflame in it's path. The issue is better there. I'd say solid B - B-, but B+ is a little bit much.

EDIT:
Reading what you wrote more carefully, it seems like you're saying it has the same checks and counters as I'm saying it, I just think that those warrant a lower rating than you do. Though really it's just a manner of whether it has a shiny + next to it's name, or not a shiny + next to it's name, which I think is totally irrelevant anyway.

I think A rank is a bit much. I wouldn't say it can sweep a large amount of the meta game when it can't do anything to Talonflame, Azumarill, both Megazards, Heatran, Assault Vest Tyranitar (unless it has a lot of boosts), Terrakion, and Blissey.

This is false assuming Defensive Volcarona (Which is arguably the best set for a Volca right now) runs Giga Drain

+1 0 SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 228-270 (70.5 - 83.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
+1 0 SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 250-296 (61.8 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Both Terrakion and Azumarill lack reliable recovery, so after a few switch ins over Stealth Rocks, they're unable to revenge kill Defensive Volcarona any longer. Blissey can't do shit to Volcarona without Toxic either, or else Volcarona can just spam to +6 SPAtk with Roosts in-between until Volcarona completely massacres the opposing team. That said, I do think that A-Rank is pushing it for Volcarona; while still dangerous and benefitting from the Defog buff, Banded Talonflame is just too omnipresent. No matter how bulky, Volcarona needs Banded Talonflame KOed to pull off a sweep. That doesn't take into account dedicated Special walls that can actually stop Volcarona, Mega-Pinsir, Dragonite, Azumarill, Heatran and Scarfed Terrakion which can either stop Volcarona before it sets up or can easily revenge it.

Volcarona is dangerous as hell and has an excellent match-up against most of the current S-Rankers, but it needs too many pokemon to be dead or weakened (unless facing someone who's dumb enough to let Volcarona get 2 Quiver Dances without a Talonflame, then it just smashes everything) before it sweeps to be considered A-Ranked. B+ is perfect for it.

 

[Emerld Shuckle]

Because getting outclassed is getting outclassed, regardless of typing or synergy. And suggesting it for B rank means that it has a niche that it isn't outclassed in (strong sweeper that can punch holes easily), which it doesn't. I could name off quite a few things that outclass him outright in the SD sweeper department that aren't named Pinsir and aren't weak to SR. Some examples are Lucario, Mega Mawile, Bisharp and Haxorus, plus I would be willing to argue Garchomp, SD Scizor and Excadrill. It's basically the same exact thing as the entire Salamence crap way back. When you're outclassed, you're outclassed, and even if you have some slight thing that MIGHT come into play, what does it matter when everything else is superior?

If you refer to my post earlier in the page, Diggersby is not completely outclassed by M-Pinsir. Diggersby isn't even totally out classed by Talonflame, as it can hit things with stupidly powerful Earthquake and Returns on the switch, and it doesn't have a problem with Rock or Steel types, which is a god send for Normal types, nor does it take recoil (aside from life orb). Even something that resists is going to take a big dent. But i think the thing that separates it from other priority users is that it can run a scarf set effectively. It fits perfectly in with the B rank, as it is overall outclassed by something else, but it can fill a nice niche that some of the major threats can't, which is raw fucking power.

Prosecutor Godot
Giga Drain is generally an unreliable form of recovery. Sure it means that it can deal with most of it's counters, but then it doesn't have the survivability of having Roost. It's a bit of a 4MSS thing where it needs both Giga Drain and Roost to be fully complete.
I'm still not totally convinced of a B+ rank (Talonflame and strong priority is a HUGE problem), but I'm not exactly going to through major objections to it either.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Because getting outclassed is getting outclassed, regardless of typing or synergy. And suggesting it for B rank means that it has a niche that it isn't outclassed in (strong sweeper that can punch holes easily), which it doesn't. I could name off quite a few things that outclass him outright in the SD sweeper department that aren't named Pinsir and aren't weak to SR. Some examples are Lucario, Mega Mawile, Bisharp and Haxorus, plus I would be willing to argue Garchomp, SD Scizor and Excadrill. It's basically the same exact thing as the entire Salamence crap way back. When you're outclassed, you're outclassed, and even if you have some slight thing that MIGHT come into play, what does it matter when everything else is superior?

I want to know how is it outclassed when it has a completely different type, different checks and different setup opportunities. I am not in any way denying that pinsir is a bigger threat, but it does not completely outclass diggersby. Pinsir cant get past thundurus with its boosted priority, diggersby can. Pinsir cant force aegislash out, diggersby can. Pinsir cant work well when stealth rocks are on the field, diggersby can. There are several other advantages, and the fact is, diggersby has its own niche as a swords dance sweeper, in the same way that scizor, garchomp, lucario, landorus, excadrill and others do. The salamence comparison is absurd, salamence isnt a good pokemon in the tier regardless of being outclassed or not and thats why it is a C rank.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

If you refer to my post earlier in the page, Diggersby is not completely outclassed by M-Pinsir. Diggersby isn't even totally out classed by Talonflame, as it can hit things with stupidly powerful Earthquake and Returns on the switch, and it doesn't have a problem with Rock or Steel types, which is a god send for Normal types, nor does it take recoil (aside from life orb). Even something that resists is going to take a big dent. But i think the thing that separates it from other priority users is that it can run a scarf set effectively. It fits perfectly in with the B rank, as it is overall outclassed by something else, but it can fill a nice niche that some of the major threats can't, which is raw fucking power.

Prosecutor Godot
Giga Drain is generally an unreliable form of recovery. Sure it means that it can deal with most of it's counters, but then it doesn't have the survivability of having Roost. It's a bit of a 4MSS thing where it needs both Giga Drain and Roost to be fully complete.
I'm still not totally convinced of a B+ rank (Talonflame and strong priority is a HUGE problem), but I'm not exactly going to through major objections to it either.

Giga drain dealing with most of Volcarona's counters sounds pretty amazing to me (I'm not convinced that it does, but that's what you said). Imagine if every pokemon could run a move to deal with most of its counters - say, if Genesect got Earth Power. Why NOT use it?
And yes, Talonflame checks it. But Talonflame checks just about every sweeper that is neutral to flying and not super bulky. Hell, it even takes out some of the super bulky stuff:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 216-255 (72.4 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's against a neutral target with 111 base defense. So being checked by Talon isn't nearly enough to keep Volcarona out of A-rank.

 

[Liquidocelot]

The pokemon i would like to nominate for C+ Rank is none other then the orignal trapper wobbufet. The reasons for this being that wobbufet has a niche of being a great revenge killer and set up stopper too many threats such as Mega lucario terrakion mega pinsir both mega zards and even talonflame (lacking u-turn)
Wobbuefet also has access to great support moves such as encore and tickle which allow him to weaken a threat for your own set up sweeper and support the team. Would nominate for B but no custap berry.

 

[Spy]

I feel I should reiterate Hydreigons placement into B tier. PLEASE this guy is a monster. He's got the expansive movepool, he kills almost everything with a dark buffed dark pulse/dragon pulse, he can go mixed/choiced/even physical if ur crazy. His only two problems are the new fairy types and his just below amazing speed, which can be his downfall. I have a more detailed explanation on page 90 I believe, but plz. I nominate Hydreigon for b tier. Make it happen.

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

If you refer to my post earlier in the page, Diggersby is not completely outclassed by M-Pinsir. Diggersby isn't even totally out classed by Talonflame, as it can hit things with stupidly powerful Earthquake and Returns on the switch, and it doesn't have a problem with Rock or Steel types, which is a god send for Normal types, nor does it take recoil (aside from life orb). Even something that resists is going to take a big dent. But i think the thing that separates it from other priority users is that it can run a scarf set effectively. It fits perfectly in with the B rank, as it is overall outclassed by something else, but it can fill a nice niche that some of the major threats can't, which is raw fucking power.

Prosecutor Godot
Giga Drain is generally an unreliable form of recovery. Sure it means that it can deal with most of it's counters, but then it doesn't have the survivability of having Roost. It's a bit of a 4MSS thing where it needs both Giga Drain and Roost to be fully complete.
I'm still not totally convinced of a B+ rank (Talonflame and strong priority is a HUGE problem), but I'm not exactly going to through major objections to it either.

Giga Drain shouldn't be used as Recovery, it should be used as coverage to deal with most of it's counters. As you just said. The moveset I've used has been Fiery Dance/Giga Drain/Roost/Quiver Dance. Bug Buzz is a nice dual STAB for hitting the Latis harder rather than having to muscle through them, but it just isn't needed for Volcarona right now.

 

[Emerld Shuckle]

Giga drain dealing with most of Volcarona's counters sounds pretty amazing to me (I'm not convinced that it does, but that's what you said). Imagine if every pokemon could run a move to deal with most of its counters - say, if Genesect got Earth Power. Why NOT use it?
And yes, Talonflame checks it. But Talonflame checks just about every sweeper that is neutral to flying and not super bulky. Hell, it even takes out some of the super bulky stuff:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 216-255 (72.4 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's against a neutral target with 111 base defense. So being checked by Talon isn't nearly enough to keep Volcarona out of A-rank.

giga Drain
The great thing about bulky Volca is that it has staying power, which Roost gives. Giga Drain doesn't give it that in the same way. I guess both are viable, but I would personally prefer to have longevity rather than a way to check your counters.
Talonflame
It isn't that it checks Volca, it's that it completely walls Volca. Talonflame can switch into any attack Volca dishes out (barring the weird HP rock or HUrricane, both are which generally not good ideas) and then retaliate with a KO. It is the classic definition of an outright counter. When something that prevalent not only counter you, but will always OHKO you back no matter how boosted you are, that is something that to me prevents it from being A rank.

Giga Drain shouldn't be used as Recovery, it should be used as coverage to deal with most of it's counters. As you just said. The moveset I've used has been Fiery Dance/Giga Drain/Roost/Quiver Dance. Bug Buzz is a nice dual STAB for hitting the Latis harder rather than having to muscle through them, but it just isn't needed for Volcarona right now.

Huh, I've never thought of it that way. Now that I think of it, the only thing Bug Buzz is really good for now is hitting Tyrantiar harder, but if you're trying to KO Tyranitar (especially mega or Assault Vest) with a non Fighting special attack... yeah good luck. With that set in mind, I can definitely see it being a contender for A rank. Which rank was it last gen if I may ask (I wasn't around these forums back then)?

 

[Srn]

All right I come back and I see way too many posts about SD diggersby vs SD mega pinsir. So lets just summarize what I've seen so far.
These are the things diggersby has over mega pinsir and the things it doesn't. Keep in mind this is mostly just concerning the SD sets

Why SD diggersby is better than SD mega pinsir
1) Ignores Thundurus-i t-wave
2) No rocks weakness
3) Stab on eq
4) Assuming the opponent doesn't know you're SD, they actually have to scout what you're running, even though counters for different sets are fairly similiar; pinsir on the other hand is not versatile in the slightest.
5) Doesn't take up a mega slot, can actually use an item
6) Isn't walled by rotom-w or bbb (banded brave bird) weak.

Why SD mega Pinsir is better than SD Diggersby
1) Flying STAB is more threatening than normal and ground STAB.
2) Stronger and better typing on Pinsir's priority.
3) Better base speed and base attack
4) No life orb recoil (probably the item you're running on SD diggersby)
5) Resists mach punch/vacuum wave, has a solid 120 base defense
6) Looks badass AF

 

[TooMuchSugar]

giga Drain
The great thing about bulky Volca is that it has staying power, which Roost gives. Giga Drain doesn't give it that in the same way. I guess both are viable, but I would personally prefer to have longevity rather than a way to check your counters.
Talonflame
It isn't that it checks Volca, it's that it completely walls Volca. Talonflame can switch into any attack Volca dishes out (barring the weird HP rock or HUrricane, both are which generally not good ideas) and then retaliate with a KO. It is the classic definition of an outright counter. When something that prevalent not only counter you, but will always OHKO you back no matter how boosted you are, that is something that to me prevents it from being A rank.

Huh, I've never thought of it that way. Now that I think of it, the only thing Bug Buzz is really good for now is hitting Tyrantiar harder, but if you're trying to KO Tyranitar (especially mega or Assault Vest) with a non Fighting special attack... yeah good luck. With that set in mind, I can definitely see it being a contender for A rank. Which rank was it last gen if I may ask (I wasn't around these forums back then)?

I'm pretty sure it was A or A+ last gen, even though it had to deal with rain.
HP Rock/Ground was pretty standard last gen, although I don't know how often either one is used now. I was not taking into account the fact that Talon often walls Volcarona, though, that's a good point. If Volcarona gets a chance to set up, it can 2HKO Talon at +1 with Fiery Dance, so Talon doesn't really want to switch in after setup except maybe on a predicted Bug Buzz or Giga Drain.

Srn9130, Diggersby is in fact fairly weak to banded brave birds as well - 252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 265-313 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It won't outright OHKO him all the time like it does Pinsir, but he's taking a ton of damage. Basically 90% of everything offensive is Talonflame weak as I said before though, so that isn't really a point against him, he just doesn't do it much better than Pinsir.

You_Lose, we haven't been ignoring Breloom on purpose, his rank just hasn't been decided yet. Feel free to make a suggestion!

 

[Emerld Shuckle]

All right I come back and I see way too many posts about SD diggersby vs SD mega pinsir. So lets just summarize what I've seen so far.
These are the things diggersby has over mega pinsir and the things it doesn't. Keep in mind this is mostly just concerning the SD sets

Why SD diggersby is better than SD mega pinsir
1) Ignores Thundurus-i t-wave
2) No rocks weakness
3) Stab on eq
4) Assuming the opponent doesn't know you're SD, they actually have to scout what you're running, even though counters for different sets are fairly similiar; pinsir on the other hand is not versatile in the slightest.
5) Doesn't take up a mega slot, can actually use an item
6) Isn't walled by rotom-w or bbb (banded brave bird) weak.

Why SD mega Pinsir is better than SD Diggersby
1) Flying STAB is more threatening than normal and ground STAB.
2) Stronger and better typing on Pinsir's priority.
3) Better base speed and base attack
4) No life orb recoil (probably the item you're running on SD diggersby)
5) Resists mach punch/vacuum wave, has a solid 120 base defense
6) Looks badass AF

In general I agree, but three things, one on the Diggersby side, two on the Pinsir side:
>6) Isn't walled by rotom-w
It's true that Rotom W can't switch into return, but is can switch on any of the other 3 moves, and unless you run speed evs on Diggersby (which isn't necessarily a bad idea, but you sacrifice bulk), it's going to ouspeed and either KO with Hydro Pump (unless you're at full health) or burn you.

>2) Stronger and better typing on Pinsir's priority.
Diggersby with life orb is actually overall stronger than M-Pinsir, except if it's using Thrash.
>has a solid 120 base defense
This is true, and M-Pinsir is slightly bulkier on the physical side, but it's much less bulk than Diggersby on the special side.

Am I the only one that feels kind of weird that Diggersby outclasses Pinsir in more things than Pinsir outclasses Diggersby? Because that feels kinda weird.

 

[Srn]

Srn9130, Diggersby is in fact fairly weak to banded brave birds as well - 252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 265-313 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It won't outright OHKO him all the time like it does Pinsir, but he's taking a ton of damage. Basically 90% of everything offensive is Talonflame weak as I said before though, so that isn't really a point against him, he just doesn't do it much better than Pinsir.

Yeah as you stated, he's not taking bbb's well at all, but not a lot offensive pokemon are. Resisting bbb alone is honestly a valid strength for any sweeper nowadays, so you're right, its not something that can really be used against him. That's what makes CB talonflame so damn popular; powerful STAB thats priority and is used to revenge kill is just broken.

In general I agree, but three things, one on the Diggersby side, two on the Pinsir side:
>6) Isn't walled by rotom-w
It's true that Rotom W can't switch into return, but is can switch on any of the other 3 moves, and unless you run speed evs on Diggersby (which isn't necessarily a bad idea, but you sacrifice bulk), it's going to ouspeed and either KO with Hydro Pump (unless you're at full health) or burn you.

>2) Stronger and better typing on Pinsir's priority.
Diggersby with life orb is actually overall stronger than M-Pinsir, except if it's using Thrash.
>has a solid 120 base defense
This is true, and M-Pinsir is slightly bulkier on the physical side, but it's much less bulk than Diggersby on the special side.

Am I the only one that feels kind of weird that Diggersby outclasses Pinsir in more things than Pinsir outclasses Diggersby? Because that feels kinda weird.

For #6 I assumed you run some speed evs to outspeed rotom-w, that's usually a smart idea. It's not like you're super bulky anyway so you're not losing out on much.

For #2 Ok maybe diggersby's QA is stronger than mega pinsir's with LO, but remember, mega pinsir's is still flying type, and he isn't suffering LO recoil either.
And once again, the slightly more special bulk doesn't matter as much because both of them are pretty damn frail anyway. If anything, better physical bulk is more useful because you're taking priority slightly better, and you resist the only special priority , vacuum wave, which diggersby is actually weak to.

 

[Emerld Shuckle]

Probably because Diggersby has a lot more cons to using it than Pinsir.

Well yeah I realize that, it just was visually kind of weird seeing the more Diggesrby pros than Pinsir pros.

I'm pretty sure it was A or A+ last gen, even though it had to deal with rain.
HP Rock/Ground was pretty standard last gen, although I don't know how often either one is used now. I was not taking into account the fact that Talon often walls Volcarona, though, that's a good point. If Volcarona gets a chance to set up, it can 2HKO Talon at +1 with Fiery Dance, so Talon doesn't really want to switch in after setup except maybe on a predicted Bug Buzz or Giga Drain.

Not quite
+1 0 SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 114-134 (38.2 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And this is assuming you come in on a +1. Normally you'd bring in Talonflame when Volca is setting up, meaning that it won't get a chance to attack anyway.

For #2 Ok maybe diggersby's QA is stronger than mega pinsir's with LO, but remember, mega pinsir's is still flying type, and he isn't suffering LO recoil either.
And once again, the slightly more special bulk doesn't matter as much because both of them are pretty damn frail anyway. If anything, better physical bulk is more useful because you're taking priority slightly better, and you resist the only special priority , vacuum wave, which diggersby is actually weak to.

Actually, LO Diggersby's Return is stronger than Pinsir's Return.

True though that Diggersby is very priority weak, being weak to not only Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave, but Aqua Jet as well.
And I would argue that both aren't actually that frail in the fact that they can balk super effective hits at full health (which might be all they need to get 1 SD up and clean up).

At this point though, it feels like we're just comparing the two instead of actually arguing if Diggersby is a B rank or not. We can all agree that while Diggersby can do some things better than Pinsir, Pinsir is overall better than Diggersby. So unless there's other arguments against, can we also agree that
Diggersby C=> B
Volcarona Unranked => A- (splitting the difference here) ?

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Well yeah I realize that, it just was visually kind of weird seeing the more Diggesrby pros than Pinsir pros.


Not quite
+1 0 SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 114-134 (38.2 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And this is assuming you come in on a +1. Normally you'd bring in Talonflame when Volca is setting up, meaning that it won't get a chance to attack anyway.


Actually, LO Diggersby's Return is stronger than Pinsir's Return.

True though that Diggersby is very priority weak, being weak to not only Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave, but Aqua Jet as well.
And I would argue that both aren't actually that frail in the fact that they can balk super effective hits at full health (which might be all they need to get 1 SD up and clean up).

At this point though, it feels like we're just comparing the two instead of actually arguing if Diggersby is a B rank or not. We can all agree that while Diggersby can do some things better than Pinsir, Pinsir is overall better than Diggersby. So unless there's other arguments against, can we also agree that
Diggersby C=> B
Volcarona Unranked => A- (splitting the difference here) ?

I can easily see volc in A-, so I don't have much to say here. Just one question; why does your Volcarona hove no special attack EVs? I'm pretty sure it uses 252, as well as modest on some sets. Other than that your post makes perfect sense, you would of course bring Talonflame in while Volc set up.

If this means we're moving on (I don't really have an opinion on Diggersby), does anyone have any new proposals?

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

A-Rank itself is really crowded, so adding an A- Rank and dropping/rising a few pokemon into it would make some sense.

I can easily see volc in A-, so I don't have much to say here. Just one question; why does your Volcarona hove no special attack EVs? I'm pretty sure it uses 252, as well as modest on some sets. Other than that your post makes perfect sense, you would of course bring Talonflame in while Volc set up.

If this means we're moving on (I don't really have an opinion on Diggersby), does anyone have any new proposals?

Because the 252 HP/252 Def/4 Speed spread is the best Volcarona can run right now. It lets the normally physically frail Volcarona take Physical hits that a normal Modest offensive variant wouldn't be able to take, while still boosting it's other used stats to high levels.

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 402-474 (128.8 - 151.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 292-344 (78 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Sandoori]

I can easily see volc in A-, so I don't have much to say here. Just one question; why does your Volcarona hove no special attack EVs? I'm pretty sure it uses 252, as well as modest on some sets. Other than that your post makes perfect sense, you would of course bring Talonflame in while Volc set up.

Most of the Volcarona discussion in this thread so far has been centered around physically defensive builds (I think the norm is something like 240HP 252Def 16Spe Timid; I run 248HP 252Def 8SpA/Spe Modest for more immediate power, particularly useful against M-Mawile), Volc really appreciates the bulk this gen.

I'll just copy this from my first post:

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 147-173 (39.4 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 98-116 (26.2 - 31%) -- 9.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 50-59 (13.4 - 15.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere/Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 89-105 (23.8 - 28.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0+ SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 326-386 (116 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The extra bulk helps it out against things like Azumarill, Crawdaunt, and even Mega Pinsir if they attempt to switch in after Volcarona's set up.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 204-240 (54.6 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0+ SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 270-318 (99.2 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 246-290 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0+ SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 276-326 (68.3 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 280-332 (75 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0+ SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 372-438 (138.8 - 163.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[TooMuchSugar]

A-Rank itself is really crowded, so adding an A- Rank and dropping/rising a few pokemon into it would make some sense.



Because the 252 HP/252 Def/4 Speed spread is the best Volcarona can run right now. It lets the normally physically frail Volcarona take Physical hits that a normal Modest offensive variant wouldn't be able to take, while still boosting it's other used stats to high levels.

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 402-474 (128.8 - 151.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 292-344 (78 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ah okay that makes sense then. And I'm pretty sure A- rank exists already, there just isn't anything in it yet.

 

[Emerld Shuckle]

A-Rank itself is really crowded, so adding an A- Rank and dropping/rising a few pokemon into it would make some sense.

Then I guess the next step would be who to move down.
I nominate Geninja for A- rank, simply because of all of the priority in this meta, and it's weakness to scarfers.

 

[Meru]

I'm not sure how against-the-rules this would be, but an interesting discussion would be to think what would happen to the S tier if/when mega lucario and genesect leave.

I think we'll see M-Pinsir immediately move to S rank. Even talonflame I think we'll see move up to S. Also predicting a surge in KyuB. Honestly I do see M-Venu moving down to A+, especially since it was an check to both sect and m-luc. Exciting changes

Banning speculation aside, I can see M-Venu moving down to A+ if Genesect is banned, in a manner similar to the ice cube analogy made in regards to centralization. Psychic-types are far too big of a liability in OU these days when they're forced out by a +1 U-turn regardless of their speed tier (unlike CB Scizor). Looking at the 1850 stats, only Lati@s, Deo-D/S, Alakazam, and Espeon made the cut. And since Psychic-type is never seen as a coverage move, M-Venusaur pretty much only has one weakness in this metagame.

 

[Judgement Blade]

At this point though, it feels like we're just comparing the two instead of actually arguing if Diggersby is a B rank or not. We can all agree that while Diggersby can do some things better than Pinsir, Pinsir is overall better than Diggersby. So unless there's other arguments against, can we also agree that
Diggersby C=> B
Volcarona Unranked => A- (splitting the difference here) ?

Well, I still don't think he should be in B because of his crappy typing and coverage vs just about anything else that can SD and sweep, but do what you want.

 

[Emerld Shuckle]

Well, I still don't think he should be in B because of his crappy typing and coverage vs just about anything else that can SD and sweep, but do what you want.

I wouldn't say that Normal/Groud is bad typing at all. In fact, I would say it's great. The only two types that resist Normal attacks are Rock and Steel, which Ground is super effective against, and Ground is neutral to Ghost. Sure you gain a weakness to Fighting, but you gain an immunity to Ghost, meaning that Diggersby is a good check to Aegislash. I would consider Normal/Ground good offensively, and mediocre defensively, and with Diggersby being mostly an offensive poke with a bit of bulk, it works fine.

And I think you have to remember that Diggersby is not a sweeper. it is a late game clean up threat that can pick off weakened mons and dish out big damage on a switch.
Sorry for sort of closing it, but it seem'd as though everyone had sort of agreed, though I'll gladly keep the discussion going if you have any obejections.

 

[Judgement Blade]

I'd view Normal/Ground as alright offensively and completely abysmal defensively. It's weak to Fighting, Grass, Ice and Water, which amounts to a weakness to four different priority moves with no resistances to any priority and all of those (Grass less so) are common attacking types. Plus, anything that outpaces 78 base speed that can take a Quick Attack kinda stop it in it's tracks.
Random question of curiosity though, does he get anything for Gengar? And now that I'm thinking about it, the only Ghosts used in OU are Aegislash, Gengar, Trevenant and Gourgeist, and all of them resist ground. And Jellecent, he get's him. Forgot about that guy lol