That only works with Wobba because of Shadow Tag. Other encore users can't prevent an immediate switchout and in the case of something encored to an ineffectual move, switching out is nearly always preferable.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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It says that they cant set up because of encore
Stall remains to date as one of the most effective playstyles in the higher ladder.
As for Wobbuffet himself, he is a mid risk/high reward mon as you pretty much have to predict correctly. But even if you click Encore on a move that you'd rather Counter/Coat, you still have the benefit that you've successfully supported your team.. unless the move chosen was MLuke's Close Combat. So, yes, I agree with C+ as he is still a viable supporter and Anti-Offense mon that gives you an option to pick'nd'choose targets to weaken or set up on.
K i phrased that wrong i meant wobba sucks against stall also you need to predict wheteher there gonna set up or attack as that can often screw you over
He meant that ''wobbufett's vulnerabilitity to status AND stall sucks'', not that ''stall sucks''.
On the topic of wobuffet, its important to note that it can't touch aegislash. At all.
Proposed pokemon so far:
Kyurem-B: A -----> A+
Celebi: unranked -----> B
Moltres: unranked -----> C
Mega Pinsir: A+ -----> S
Mega Charizard X: A+ -----> S
Crawdaunt: Unranked -----> B-
Lucario: Unranked -----> B-
Skarmory: B+ -----> A
Mega Aerodactyl: Unranked -----> B
Volcarona: Unranked -----> A
Diggersby: C+ -----> B
Rotom-H: Unranked -----> B
Galvuntula: B- -----> C
Hydreigon: Unranked -----> B
Zapdos: B -----> B+
Slowbro: B -----> B+
Politoed: Unranked -----> A
Mega Absol: Unranked -----> B-
Entei: B -----> B-
Dugtrio: Unranked -----> C+
Sylveon: B -----> B+
Jellicent: Jellicent -----> B-
Tornadus-T: Unranked -----> B+
Vaporeon: Unranked -----> B-
Kyurem: Unranked -----> B-
Wobuffet: Unranked -----> C+
Alright I have the list of pokemon that have been proposed in an intelligent/good argument or pokemon who we have agreed on to be in that rank.
I personally to do not whatsoever disagree with the aforementioned.
Kyurem-B: A -----> A+
Celebi: unranked -----> B
Moltres: unranked -----> C
Mega Pinsir: A+ -----> S
Mega Charizard X: A+ -----> S
Crawdaunt: Unranked -----> B-
Lucario: Unranked -----> B-
Skarmory: B+ -----> A
Mega Aerodactyl: Unranked -----> B
Volcarona: Unranked -----> A
Diggersby: C+ -----> B
Rotom-H: Unranked -----> B
Galvuntula: B- -----> C
Hydreigon: Unranked -----> B
Zapdos: B -----> B+
Slowbro: B -----> B+
Politoed: Unranked -----> A
Mega Absol: Unranked -----> B-
Entei: B -----> B-
Dugtrio: Unranked -----> C+
Sylveon: B -----> B+
Jellicent: Jellicent -----> B-
Tornadus-T: Unranked -----> B+
Vaporeon: Unranked -----> B-
Kyurem: Unranked -----> B-
Wobuffet: Unranked -----> C+
Alright I have the list of pokemon that have been proposed in an intelligent/good argument or pokemon who we have agreed on to be in that rank.
I personally to do not whatsoever disagree with the aforementioned.
Since it's not added to the rankings yet I'm going to go ahead and also nominate Hippowdon for A- Rank whenever it gets added.
Hippowdon is one of the best mixed walls this meta has. With 108 / 118 / 72 defensive stats it can effectively wall a large portion of the tier. Most of us know what Hippowdon is capable of. It's one of the most reliable Stealth Rock users and one of the best mixed walls in the game. The fully defensive puts a stop to many physically offensive threats such as Talonflame, Terrakion, Zard X, Garchomp, Excadrill and more. With reliably recovery in Slack Off, it can effectively run Smooth Rock to assist Sand abuser in Excadrill and Mega Garchomp.
While in contrast, the fully Specially Defensive set makes Hippowdon an outstanding mixed wall. While still being able to stand strong against most physical attackers, it can also wall many of the best Special attacker in the game. Thundurus-I does a pitiful 26.6 - 31.9% while being 2HKOed by Rock Slide after Lefties and sand damage. Outside of Grass Knot Thundurus cannot beat Hippowdown while unboosted. Aegislash is also handled, doing 33.8 - 40% with Shadow Ball. Since Hippowdon is naturally slower Aegislash dies to Earthquake after the Shadow Ball. Though Hippowdon going 1v1 against Mega Zard Y is usually ill-advised, there are situations where Hippowdon can come out on top. If Mega Charizard has already Mega evolved Hippowdon can switch into a Fire Blast and avoid being 2HKOed and can KO with a Rock slide.
Despite being extremely bulky Hippowdon does have its flaws. It does possess a case of 4MSS and does allow several Pokemon such as Rotom-W to switch in relatively unharmed. If Hippowdon lacks Whirlwind is setup bait for Garchomp, Scizor, Gliscor, Gengar and Ferrothorn. Mandibuzz can freely switch and Taunt Hippowdow making it a non-threat to Mandibuzz. Being weak to some common offensive like water does hurt it a bit but not enough to make Hippowdon unusable.
Even though it has some noticeable flaws, Hippowdon can still wall a significant portion of the tier and be a good utility Pokemon for balanced teams or stall teams. I feel like its well deserving of A- or A Rank. The fact that it's not currently on the rankings is criminal.
Hippowdon is one of the best mixed walls this meta has. With 108 / 118 / 72 defensive stats it can effectively wall a large portion of the tier. Most of us know what Hippowdon is capable of. It's one of the most reliable Stealth Rock users and one of the best mixed walls in the game. The fully defensive puts a stop to many physically offensive threats such as Talonflame, Terrakion, Zard X, Garchomp, Excadrill and more. With reliably recovery in Slack Off, it can effectively run Smooth Rock to assist Sand abuser in Excadrill and Mega Garchomp.
While in contrast, the fully Specially Defensive set makes Hippowdon an outstanding mixed wall. While still being able to stand strong against most physical attackers, it can also wall many of the best Special attacker in the game. Thundurus-I does a pitiful 26.6 - 31.9% while being 2HKOed by Rock Slide after Lefties and sand damage. Outside of Grass Knot Thundurus cannot beat Hippowdown while unboosted. Aegislash is also handled, doing 33.8 - 40% with Shadow Ball. Since Hippowdon is naturally slower Aegislash dies to Earthquake after the Shadow Ball. Though Hippowdon going 1v1 against Mega Zard Y is usually ill-advised, there are situations where Hippowdon can come out on top. If Mega Charizard has already Mega evolved Hippowdon can switch into a Fire Blast and avoid being 2HKOed and can KO with a Rock slide.
Despite being extremely bulky Hippowdon does have its flaws. It does possess a case of 4MSS and does allow several Pokemon such as Rotom-W to switch in relatively unharmed. If Hippowdon lacks Whirlwind is setup bait for Garchomp, Scizor, Gliscor, Gengar and Ferrothorn. Mandibuzz can freely switch and Taunt Hippowdow making it a non-threat to Mandibuzz. Being weak to some common offensive like water does hurt it a bit but not enough to make Hippowdon unusable.
Even though it has some noticeable flaws, Hippowdon can still wall a significant portion of the tier and be a good utility Pokemon for balanced teams or stall teams. I feel like its well deserving of A- or A Rank. The fact that it's not currently on the rankings is criminal.
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I got a couple more for D rank
Barbaracle- can shell smash sweep completely outclassed by cloyster lack of strong enough moves easily revenged good ability to suit attacking needs.
Exploud-Choice specs scrappy boomburst really powerful but to slow lack of bulk and easily revenged
I believe this should go along with pokes such as honchkrow who have a very small niche in the meta also i agree just take malamar completely off the list its not worth it at all and about as viable as spinda was last gen.
Barbaracle- can shell smash sweep completely outclassed by cloyster lack of strong enough moves easily revenged good ability to suit attacking needs.
Exploud-Choice specs scrappy boomburst really powerful but to slow lack of bulk and easily revenged
I believe this should go along with pokes such as honchkrow who have a very small niche in the meta also i agree just take malamar completely off the list its not worth it at all and about as viable as spinda was last gen.
Completely agree with Hippowdon for A-, I can't believe he wasn't even ranked yet! Hippo is still one of the best walls in the game and provides tons of support while chipping away at the opposing team with residual damage.
A few other yet-unranked Pokemon I'd like to recommend:
Whimsicott for B- Rank
This little annoyer somehow has been flying under the radar completely this gen. It received a wonderful typing buff in Grass/Fairy, which now gives it a unique typing that resists Dark, Ground, Fighting, Water, Electric, and Grass, plus immunity to Dragon. These are all important switch-in opportunities for the cottonball, and it also has STAB Moonblast as a 142.5 BP move, which means it isn't completely defenseless. Obviously though its main draw is Prankster Encore, which is absolutely amazing, shutting down many different threats. Whimsicott can then use the free turns to throw out priority Leech Seed or Stun Spore, or U-Turn out to a counter. It also has a ton of other fun options, such as priority Memento, Switcheroo with Lagging Tail, Taunt, Tailwind, Cotton Guard, and more.
Whimsicott still struggles with its common weaknesses (now including Steel-types, meaning Ferrothorn is now a big nuisance). Its stats are still quite low as well, so it won't last very long, but it's the best at what it does. Because it has a unique niche and is effective at supporting the team despite its obvious drawbacks, I think it belongs in the B- rank.
Gothitelle for B- Rank
Gothitelle is another Pokemon with the unique niche of trapping all non-Ghost types. Unlike Dugtrio, it can trap Flying/Levitating Pokemon and take a hit, and unlike Wobb, it can actually attack... which is pretty nice. Obviously, trapping and removing Pokemon like Blissey and Mega Venusaur is a wonderful ability for many teams. Unfortunately, Gothitelle has very mediocre stats and a poor mono-Psychic typing, so it really struggles to switch in. It also struggles to take hits without bulk investment, or get kills without maximum SpA/Spe and a Choice Item. However, there's still nothing that can quite do what it does.
Slight changes I'd like to see as well:
Kyurem-B: A -> A+ This one's been mentioned before, but it absolutely deserves A+. It's incredibly powerful, matches up very well against top-tier threats like Rotom and Megasaur, and destroys stall like no other.
Starmie: B(-) -> B There's no way Starmie is worse off in this metagame than Mega Blastoise or Tentacruel. While many of XY's changes weren't kind to it, it's still the fastest spinner and very effective (and Exca doesn't fit onto every team).
A few other yet-unranked Pokemon I'd like to recommend:
Whimsicott for B- Rank
This little annoyer somehow has been flying under the radar completely this gen. It received a wonderful typing buff in Grass/Fairy, which now gives it a unique typing that resists Dark, Ground, Fighting, Water, Electric, and Grass, plus immunity to Dragon. These are all important switch-in opportunities for the cottonball, and it also has STAB Moonblast as a 142.5 BP move, which means it isn't completely defenseless. Obviously though its main draw is Prankster Encore, which is absolutely amazing, shutting down many different threats. Whimsicott can then use the free turns to throw out priority Leech Seed or Stun Spore, or U-Turn out to a counter. It also has a ton of other fun options, such as priority Memento, Switcheroo with Lagging Tail, Taunt, Tailwind, Cotton Guard, and more.
Whimsicott still struggles with its common weaknesses (now including Steel-types, meaning Ferrothorn is now a big nuisance). Its stats are still quite low as well, so it won't last very long, but it's the best at what it does. Because it has a unique niche and is effective at supporting the team despite its obvious drawbacks, I think it belongs in the B- rank.
Gothitelle for B- Rank
Gothitelle is another Pokemon with the unique niche of trapping all non-Ghost types. Unlike Dugtrio, it can trap Flying/Levitating Pokemon and take a hit, and unlike Wobb, it can actually attack... which is pretty nice. Obviously, trapping and removing Pokemon like Blissey and Mega Venusaur is a wonderful ability for many teams. Unfortunately, Gothitelle has very mediocre stats and a poor mono-Psychic typing, so it really struggles to switch in. It also struggles to take hits without bulk investment, or get kills without maximum SpA/Spe and a Choice Item. However, there's still nothing that can quite do what it does.
Slight changes I'd like to see as well:
Kyurem-B: A -> A+ This one's been mentioned before, but it absolutely deserves A+. It's incredibly powerful, matches up very well against top-tier threats like Rotom and Megasaur, and destroys stall like no other.
Starmie: B(-) -> B There's no way Starmie is worse off in this metagame than Mega Blastoise or Tentacruel. While many of XY's changes weren't kind to it, it's still the fastest spinner and very effective (and Exca doesn't fit onto every team).
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You missed my Gothitelle nomination on page 112 :[
#actuallyaman
Nominating Gothitelle for B Rank
Gothitelle has one and only one function in OU - Shadow Trapping.
While it took a slight nerf in its ability to trap Ghost Type Pokemon, Gothitelle still stands as an amazing offensive trapper, making life easier for various sweepers such as Mega Lucario, Mega Pinsir, Mega Charizard X, etc.
Gothitelle can "can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche" , a requirement for any B Rank nominee.
Honestly, it's ability alone is what merits OU viability and placement within the B Rank. The amount of utility and support it brings to the table is worthy of recognition.
Gothitelle does possess a solid base 95 Special Attack stat that can hurt when combined with Choice Specs + great coverage. It also has an above average base 110 Special Defense which is pretty useful for 2HKOing certain Pokemon, should such a situation ever arise.
Overall, Gothitelle fits right in with the B Rank class
Given Whimsicott's pitiful attacking stats, STAB moonblast isn't really a point in its favor. It's not even setup bait due to prankster Encore/Taunt.
A Rank Tornadus-T (I'm serious) and Kyurem-B is A+ Rank
Tornadus-T is amazing. Last generation, it was banned for a reason. Hurricane is amazing combined with that amazing coverage and U-turn. Regenerator offsets LO and SR damage and is a good scouting tool as well making it hard to wear down. There are 4 things that it has to deal with giving it this lower rank. Mega Aero, Mega Manetric, Greninja, and Mega Zam. All are uncommon bar greninja, so IMO this is a little problem. Aegislash is hit hard with Knock Off and Heat Wave and like last gen Hurricane still hits mad hard even w/ 110 bp this gen. Rain nerf sucks, but it can set up its own rain on things like Heatran and walls or can use Air Slash which is still pretty long late-game. Hurricane can still be used despite 70 accuracy since it has power an can be combined with air slash for no expl. needed. Superpower, Heat Wave, Knock Off, U-turn, Rain Dance, etc makes it have good support options and speed is epic. Next 110 SpA is great with LO or specs so don't underestimate. Offenisive teams can use the AV set as a great scout who can sit in front of many special attacker and hit them hard with repeated hurricanes. Genesect being unbanned currently is amazing too as it forms an extremely good core. YES, it is THAT good even w/ rain nerf and greninja so don't question that.
jukain already explained well enough why kyu-b is A+ material
Tornadus-T is amazing. Last generation, it was banned for a reason. Hurricane is amazing combined with that amazing coverage and U-turn. Regenerator offsets LO and SR damage and is a good scouting tool as well making it hard to wear down. There are 4 things that it has to deal with giving it this lower rank. Mega Aero, Mega Manetric, Greninja, and Mega Zam. All are uncommon bar greninja, so IMO this is a little problem. Aegislash is hit hard with Knock Off and Heat Wave and like last gen Hurricane still hits mad hard even w/ 110 bp this gen. Rain nerf sucks, but it can set up its own rain on things like Heatran and walls or can use Air Slash which is still pretty long late-game. Hurricane can still be used despite 70 accuracy since it has power an can be combined with air slash for no expl. needed. Superpower, Heat Wave, Knock Off, U-turn, Rain Dance, etc makes it have good support options and speed is epic. Next 110 SpA is great with LO or specs so don't underestimate. Offenisive teams can use the AV set as a great scout who can sit in front of many special attacker and hit them hard with repeated hurricanes. Genesect being unbanned currently is amazing too as it forms an extremely good core. YES, it is THAT good even w/ rain nerf and greninja so don't question that.
jukain already explained well enough why kyu-b is A+ material
I don't think Whimscott is as you give her credit for: C+ is pretty good rank though.
Kyurem-B is already on the list.
I honestly think Gothetille is better at B-, because Psychic typing isn't really good defensively or offensively, and Gothitelle needs both, being Aegislash weak, combined with Sucker Punch, Pursuit, and Shadow Sneak weak also hurts a lot. 65 speed hurts too, and if you think TR is a great idea, well you just lost your Choice Specs. However the CM set is pretty nice, but it lacks recovery outside of Leftovers or Chesto Resto, which goes for everything.
Though you did mention great reasons, but B- is more fitting IMO.
Kyurem-B is already in the list to be A+, so an OU mod can edit the OP.
I think Tornadus-T fits in B+ more. You can't spam Hurricane is presence, and even on a rain team, that's pretty hard. U-Turn LO Regenrator is pretty nice for a relatively bulky pokemon like him. And that blazing speed is nice. But it has much more things to deal with that what you have mentioned.
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 174-205 (58.3 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Tornadus-T is a set-up fodder for Char X unless you flinch with Air Slash (Which odes less than Focus Blast btw), Chzarizard Y completely walls you, and even if you have rain, thnx to his son your Hurricane is 50% acc. Rotom-W too, and Scarf Genesect takes care of you after some residual damage.
Garchomp, Manaphy, Thundurus are also pokemons that can take more than one hit and retaliate w/ a OHKO. (Manaphy can set up Tail Glow and OHKO you next turn). Talonflame destroys you too.
I would like to nominate Roserade for B- rank
I think roserade desrves B- rank this gen as it gained quite a few buffs and is one of the best offensive spikers this gen. Roserade can now legally use leaf storm sleep powder and spikes all together and with technician and the hidden power nerf it can always have a 90 base power coverage move of any type. Furthermore roserade has a nice 90 speed stat 125 special attack stat a great typing this gen its stabb moves buffed and a boost too its Def stat. Only b-rank though because it is outclassed as a offensive spiker by deoxys-s and as a grass type in general by mega venusaur and still has some pitiful defense stats that being said it is a amazing poke this gen that can easilly set up spikes hit hard with stab's and hidden power and be a great teammate overall.
I think roserade desrves B- rank this gen as it gained quite a few buffs and is one of the best offensive spikers this gen. Roserade can now legally use leaf storm sleep powder and spikes all together and with technician and the hidden power nerf it can always have a 90 base power coverage move of any type. Furthermore roserade has a nice 90 speed stat 125 special attack stat a great typing this gen its stabb moves buffed and a boost too its Def stat. Only b-rank though because it is outclassed as a offensive spiker by deoxys-s and as a grass type in general by mega venusaur and still has some pitiful defense stats that being said it is a amazing poke this gen that can easilly set up spikes hit hard with stab's and hidden power and be a great teammate overall.
You make some good points but I don't think you realize why it is so good in the first place. Read last gen suspect test. Free turns is amazing as well which makes core with it very good. It can clean teams late-game too single handed. Air Slash provides different utility than Hurricane. That's the difference. It is good even if it has disappointing power
- U-turn + Regenerator is an endless combo that is great
- Hurricane is powerful. Charizard Y has to deal with Stealth Rock, switching into Air Slash is tough (OHKO after rocks and 2HKO so either way it needs to sac or double switch to get in. Tornadus-T can Rain Dance as it switches in too. It can just U-turn to something that can easily deal with its counters like Terrakion or Thundurus and then proceed to SPAM its STAB.
- Rotom-W doesn't can't really do crap bar Volt Switch which is prolly the most predictable to see.
- Choice Scarf Genesect is a problem, but its a check that can easily played arouynd or set-up on since Ice Beam doesn't make you switch.
- regen offsets lo + sr recoil which is amazing. If sr isn't up, good luck wearing this down. If with SR it only lose 2% health for U-turning. Really good. It can offset sand damage and it take Aegislash's Shadow Ball quite nicely for an offensive mon.
It cleans most of the metagame, it can also make some free turns with U-turn, so IMO, this thing can fit A Rank. It can do its job most of the time and it can also come in an ample amount of times (79 / 90 sdef is good). Superpower checks alot and Knock Off has amazing utility. Garchomp can't switch into Air Slash without suffering a 2HKO after rocks / prior damage. Hurricane is even worse. Knock Off severely cripples all but mega chomp sets. Manaphy can't do much and suffers a 2HKO from Hurricane and Air Slash with prior damage. Even without rocks, it still hits most of the fast metagame for 2HKOes. Flying STAB is beast and mono flying typing gives it a a good resistance to fighting allowing it to come in on Conkeldurr's Drain Punch fairly easily and force it out / free turn.
Little support needed too.
Easy A Rank.
Well considering the sheer utility that Gothetille brings to the table I feel like B Rank is a pretty good rank for an offensive Shadow Tagger. Keep in mind there's only two Shadow Taggers in OU so having access to such an exclusive and powerful ability should surely deserve some more credit.
Also why is Aegislash even a relevant argument? Gothetille can't trap Aegislash because it's a Ghost Type and unless it lacks Shadow Sneak, there's no reason for Gothetille to stay in and face it off 1 v 1. I'm not even sure if Aegislash has Pursuit and if it does, I have yet to see it be used on standard sets.
Choice Specs/Scarf are Gothetille's only real viable OU set. CM isn't too great and effective consistently, considering Goth's glaring weaknesses in typing and stat spread. TR is just ... what?
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 268-320 (64.7 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
while
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Tornadus-T: 254-300 (84.9 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
and
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Tornadus-T: 51-60 (17 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO
Tornadus-t is not a great check to conk since it mostly runs AV. You can't switch in on an attack and you have to rely on the super reliable hurricane to do any real damage.
While Hurricane does have a good shot at killing, most people really don't wanna risk hurricane when you have a much more reliable option in air slash.
If you run hurricane, you're most reliable move might be superpower (not good) knock off (not too great) or u-turn (no). None of those should be your go-to move if you want to do damage. The chance of hurricane even hitting twice is 49%, do you really want to rely on THOSE odds? Even if hurricane hits, you have to rely on one of the other moves mentioned to kill your target, and it might not!
Ultimately, hurricane is pretty irrelevant in comparison to air slash, it shouldn't even be brought up outside of rain.
Think of it this way:
If alakazam had access to aura sphere, do you think focus blast would see much usage? Would focus blast even be considered a viable option when something as reliable as aura sphere exists? probably not :/
Aegislash is a relevant argument because its not always about what you can trap, what can come in on you and force you out is also important! Aegislash demonstrates exactly this; he can come in after the opponent has sacked a mon to gothitelle and harass your team with shadow balls. Everytime you let gothitelle in, you have to make sure your prey can't pivot into aegislash, and that alone is a great burden.
Btw, aegislash does have access to pursuit, but I see little to no reason to ever run it.
Despite gothitelle's drawbacks simply when aegislash is present, I agree that gothitelle should be B.
I would say A- is a more logical position, as Tornadus-T is very good, but it's not A Rank good. Don't ignore its Air Slash set Professional2341 Srn9130 which is absolutely viable, and has been used to success by a number of players, including myself.
Gothitelle should be C+: I've played with Gothitelle a good chunk this generation, and honestly, it just isn't that good. It has huge trouble against HO teams that often don't pack a single Pokemon Gothitelle can trap, and it can't really afford to run a Choice Scarf lest its power be utterly abysmal. It's a good way to take out defensive Pokemon, but even then, it can't trap Heatran as reliably as Dugtrio -- with Genesect in the metagame, proficiency in trapping Heatran is a pretty big deal. Crippling defensive Pokemon with Choice Specs is indeed excellent, but honestly (another thing), Gothitelle isn't even that powerful. You know what happens? It can't OHKO a lot of the Pokemon it's supposed to trap, but doesn't want to Trick away its Choice Specs because without them it can't kill a damn thing. It's difficult for Gothitelle to come into defensive Pokemon and even kill it. Gothitelle has a niche in OU, but based on these observations of mine, I don't think it belongs anywhere above C+.
Okay I brought this up to some other people, and I'll post it here: Mega Mawile should be in A+ Rank. Among OU players, Mega Mawile is known as a top-tier offensive threat. Its Steel/Fairy typing, solid Defense stat, and ridiculous Huge Power-boosted base 105 Attack stat cement it as a solid Pokemon. It has access to Sucker Punch, which is powerful because Mega Mawile is ridiculously strong, even without STAB. STAB Play Rough slices through souls, and Mega Mawile has the accompanying offensive movepool to back it up. Access to Iron Head, Knock Off (the best move in the game), Brick Break, and even Focus Punch (to surprise Heatran, the set is far from a joke that's for certain). Thanks to these moves, it has some attacking versatility, and Mega Mawile can dedicate one slot to another move: Swords Dance or Substitute. Mega Mawile with a Swords Dance boost is something no team wants to face. It's certainly not without its share of ways to beat it (WoW Talonflame on the predicted BB as an offensive check comes to mind, and there are some good defensive ones), but with boosts and the appropriate move, it can rip through almost all ways to beat it. Its aforementioned defenses and typing grant it numerous opportunities to set up. Meanwhile, Mega Mawile behind a Substitute turns the tables on offensive teams hoping to take advantage of Sucker Punch, as revenging killing it proves impossible; basically, you WILL lose a Pokemon given Mega Mawile gets a free Substitute. And, Mega Mawile can run a three attacks moveset, SubSD (a deadly set provided you have the support to take out things that can handle Play Rough + Sucker Punch), or even the aformentioned Focus Punch, which is much less reliant on prediction behind a Substitute. All of these Mega Mawile variants can rip apart teams given but one free turn, which isn't too hard considering how many resistances it has, and thus opportunities to get in and force the foe out.
With all these traits, you might be wondering why I don't think Mega Mawile should shoot all the way up to S Rank. Well, there are a couple reasons. First of all, non-Sub sets are reliant on Sucker Punch, and Sub sets have a limited amount of Subs available to set up. Weaknesses to Fire and Ground, which are common types, hold it back. Additionally, sets without a Fighting move are walled by Heatran, and there are other Pokemon (such as Taunt or WW Skarmory) that can handle it without too much trouble. Its coverage isn't an end-all be-all, but with the right move it CAN fuck over almost all its counters, so that's still something to watch out for. Not to mention, these counters can easily be dealt with via proper team support, which should be very obvious. For example, Dugtrio can pair with Mega Mawile to take out Heatran whilst it runs Knock Off, Iron Head, or Substitute. Even just something like Landorus, or like Knock Off Thundurus -- which can chip away at it -- works.
Mega Mawile also partners well with some of the deadliest Pokemon in OU. For example, SG Genesect is something it synergizes pretty well with (offensively). It synergizes well with Latios, too, covering all of its weaknesses. These are just a couple examples of top threats that Mega Mawile pairs well with. Why not run Mega Mawile? Well, there's other Megas that compete with it for a Mega slot in different ways, but Mega Mawile is definitely a beyond stellar competitor for the slot.
Essentially, Mega Mawile can sweep through much of OU due to its extreme power, and its ease of setup as well as excellent typing mean it can do a huge amount of damage in the OU tier. For these reasons, I think it's a clear A+.
Gothitelle should be C+: I've played with Gothitelle a good chunk this generation, and honestly, it just isn't that good. It has huge trouble against HO teams that often don't pack a single Pokemon Gothitelle can trap, and it can't really afford to run a Choice Scarf lest its power be utterly abysmal. It's a good way to take out defensive Pokemon, but even then, it can't trap Heatran as reliably as Dugtrio -- with Genesect in the metagame, proficiency in trapping Heatran is a pretty big deal. Crippling defensive Pokemon with Choice Specs is indeed excellent, but honestly (another thing), Gothitelle isn't even that powerful. You know what happens? It can't OHKO a lot of the Pokemon it's supposed to trap, but doesn't want to Trick away its Choice Specs because without them it can't kill a damn thing. It's difficult for Gothitelle to come into defensive Pokemon and even kill it. Gothitelle has a niche in OU, but based on these observations of mine, I don't think it belongs anywhere above C+.
Okay I brought this up to some other people, and I'll post it here: Mega Mawile should be in A+ Rank. Among OU players, Mega Mawile is known as a top-tier offensive threat. Its Steel/Fairy typing, solid Defense stat, and ridiculous Huge Power-boosted base 105 Attack stat cement it as a solid Pokemon. It has access to Sucker Punch, which is powerful because Mega Mawile is ridiculously strong, even without STAB. STAB Play Rough slices through souls, and Mega Mawile has the accompanying offensive movepool to back it up. Access to Iron Head, Knock Off (the best move in the game), Brick Break, and even Focus Punch (to surprise Heatran, the set is far from a joke that's for certain). Thanks to these moves, it has some attacking versatility, and Mega Mawile can dedicate one slot to another move: Swords Dance or Substitute. Mega Mawile with a Swords Dance boost is something no team wants to face. It's certainly not without its share of ways to beat it (WoW Talonflame on the predicted BB as an offensive check comes to mind, and there are some good defensive ones), but with boosts and the appropriate move, it can rip through almost all ways to beat it. Its aforementioned defenses and typing grant it numerous opportunities to set up. Meanwhile, Mega Mawile behind a Substitute turns the tables on offensive teams hoping to take advantage of Sucker Punch, as revenging killing it proves impossible; basically, you WILL lose a Pokemon given Mega Mawile gets a free Substitute. And, Mega Mawile can run a three attacks moveset, SubSD (a deadly set provided you have the support to take out things that can handle Play Rough + Sucker Punch), or even the aformentioned Focus Punch, which is much less reliant on prediction behind a Substitute. All of these Mega Mawile variants can rip apart teams given but one free turn, which isn't too hard considering how many resistances it has, and thus opportunities to get in and force the foe out.
With all these traits, you might be wondering why I don't think Mega Mawile should shoot all the way up to S Rank. Well, there are a couple reasons. First of all, non-Sub sets are reliant on Sucker Punch, and Sub sets have a limited amount of Subs available to set up. Weaknesses to Fire and Ground, which are common types, hold it back. Additionally, sets without a Fighting move are walled by Heatran, and there are other Pokemon (such as Taunt or WW Skarmory) that can handle it without too much trouble. Its coverage isn't an end-all be-all, but with the right move it CAN fuck over almost all its counters, so that's still something to watch out for. Not to mention, these counters can easily be dealt with via proper team support, which should be very obvious. For example, Dugtrio can pair with Mega Mawile to take out Heatran whilst it runs Knock Off, Iron Head, or Substitute. Even just something like Landorus, or like Knock Off Thundurus -- which can chip away at it -- works.
Mega Mawile also partners well with some of the deadliest Pokemon in OU. For example, SG Genesect is something it synergizes pretty well with (offensively). It synergizes well with Latios, too, covering all of its weaknesses. These are just a couple examples of top threats that Mega Mawile pairs well with. Why not run Mega Mawile? Well, there's other Megas that compete with it for a Mega slot in different ways, but Mega Mawile is definitely a beyond stellar competitor for the slot.
Essentially, Mega Mawile can sweep through much of OU due to its extreme power, and its ease of setup as well as excellent typing mean it can do a huge amount of damage in the OU tier. For these reasons, I think it's a clear A+.
That never happened. And he's in B already to begin with.
Seconding Tornadus -T to A rank (or A-). My post on it a page back was completely ignored but alas now that we're finally discussing this beast of a pokemon let's go. It reminds me of 5th gen UU crobat (which was S) in how versatile. Damage calcs distract from the main point of tornadus. The fact of the matter is that with AV it checks 90% of the metagame, and also outspeeds it. Combined with uturn, knock off, and 2 near perfect coverage moves (only one to resist is aegi, who eats knock off), this thing chips away at the other team until any of your other 5 pokes are ready to rip holes. It switches in with ease, with genesect only doing 40% with ice beam (AV set), and completely countering Landorus-I. Can also switch into Latios, take it huge hit, and either knock off or u turn out. Combined with just SR this is incredible.
The LO set is also deadly, probably not as good tier wise, but it catches most teams off guard with superpower+airslash. Consider some of the most prevalent walls from the top tier: tyranitar, heatran, mega-venu, conkeldurr. And the rest that are able to survive the super power + air slash (LO) combination are deftly handled with knock off: skarmory, jelicent, aegislash, etc…
With two very different sets (though both have same moveset), torn-t can fit onto ANY team. It’s really that good. A rank.
The LO set is also deadly, probably not as good tier wise, but it catches most teams off guard with superpower+airslash. Consider some of the most prevalent walls from the top tier: tyranitar, heatran, mega-venu, conkeldurr. And the rest that are able to survive the super power + air slash (LO) combination are deftly handled with knock off: skarmory, jelicent, aegislash, etc…
With two very different sets (though both have same moveset), torn-t can fit onto ANY team. It’s really that good. A rank.
Don't mean to be rude, but... Can the "score updates" or whatever they're called that're posted each page maybe be lowered in their frequency, or culled entirely? There are a few problems with them:
a) The poster could think that a decision was settled, when in reality the issue was equally split when conversation drifted off to the next topic, thus meaning that no consensus was reached. This means that the mods have to read the thread again anyway in order to remain accurate.
b) It's not as though the people in charge of this take the thread into consideration and nothing else. They also have their own discussions, I believe, on the irc. This board is for presenting arguments, and it's definitely important, but it is not an "end-all" as people seem to think.
c) Someone who posts them could forget a thing or two, causing those reading the list to be misled, particularly if the mods actually went by those without reading the arguments and deciding for themselves. Alternatively, a poster could fabricate a rank change when such a discussion never took place.
Apologies if I came across as rude or if there are inaccuracies as to what I've said. I may also have missed the actual intention of the lists, whatever they may be.
a) The poster could think that a decision was settled, when in reality the issue was equally split when conversation drifted off to the next topic, thus meaning that no consensus was reached. This means that the mods have to read the thread again anyway in order to remain accurate.
b) It's not as though the people in charge of this take the thread into consideration and nothing else. They also have their own discussions, I believe, on the irc. This board is for presenting arguments, and it's definitely important, but it is not an "end-all" as people seem to think.
c) Someone who posts them could forget a thing or two, causing those reading the list to be misled, particularly if the mods actually went by those without reading the arguments and deciding for themselves. Alternatively, a poster could fabricate a rank change when such a discussion never took place.
Apologies if I came across as rude or if there are inaccuracies as to what I've said. I may also have missed the actual intention of the lists, whatever they may be.
I understand your concerns (especially as the list grows increasingly long). I think one of the best effects of the lists is that they allow us to easily check whether something has been discussed already or not without reading the last 50 or so pages. However, I agree that they could maybe be cut down to every other page or less. And yeah, the list is probably not going to have any effect on what eventually gets tiered, it's just a reminder.
What do people think of Weavile this gen? There was a bit of conversation way back in the thread about B+, though not much (and opinions may have changed over time). I've been running LO Weavile and the Knock Off buff was pretty damn great; among other things, it cleanly OHKOs uninvested Aegislash-Shield and still has a slight chance of OHKOing 252/0. Its speed is pretty nice too (outspeeds Greninja/Noivern and OHKOs both!), but Dark/Ice isn't the best typing to have in a meta with Mach/Bullet Punch everywhere. All factors considered I don't know where I'd rank it, but I haven't been disappointed by it.
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