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XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)
- Thread starter Aldaron
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No way is mega aggron a reliable check or counter. Even if it thunder waved on the set up,
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 231-273 (67.1 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Your retaliation isn't good enough either
4 Atk Mega Aggron Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 214-254 (76.1 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even if you switch out after the first hit your aggron takes damage it can only wish pass back ( unless you run rest in which case why the hell would you run rest and thunder wave).
I think only bulky intimidate Pokemon do the job of reliably checking this guy but even then,
Landorus-t fears ice punch, gyarados and volcarona fear the odd but possible stone edge...
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 231-273 (67.1 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Your retaliation isn't good enough either
4 Atk Mega Aggron Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 214-254 (76.1 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even if you switch out after the first hit your aggron takes damage it can only wish pass back ( unless you run rest in which case why the hell would you run rest and thunder wave).
I think only bulky intimidate Pokemon do the job of reliably checking this guy but even then,
Landorus-t fears ice punch, gyarados and volcarona fear the odd but possible stone edge...
There's Deoxys-S, but the point remains ;)
To me, there is no such thing as "prediction"; there is calculated risk. I want to avoid mind games by using the bulk of my Pokemon to enable me to spam prophylactic, yet suboptimal, attacks and then infrequently use a more rewarding move. Obviously, I do not like Choice items based on that playing style.
However, Scarf Genesect accommodates my play style well because he also has potential utility has an endgame cleaner or revenge killer in addition to his asset of presenting the opponent threatening gambits of either surrendering momentum or loss of material at the expense of momentum. When not used as its capacity as a revenge killer, Scarf Genesect can provide either momentum or loss of material.
If you hate constant U-turning, learn to better control hazards more. Or use pivots.
Gliscor can set up against its common U-turn partners (especially Lando-T) or can at least Toxic a Defense Rotom before (and if, which is a nice subordinating conjunction because RNGesus may fail it) it gets Hydroed on the switch as it outspeeds it. Not to mention it can survive a Hydro Pump from a Defensive Rotom-W due to Game Freak. I hate the fact that I cannot conservatively play against Gliscor by prophylatically spamming Hydro Pump, even the current Pokemon in against Rotom-W resists Hydro Pump, as I am not aiming to kill it on the switch or outpredict my opponent. Once it survives the incoming Hydro Pump, here comes the SubProtect bullshit. Sure it can Toxic me, but I lost the deterrent value of Hydro Pump this Gen.) Hell, sacrificing it to an Ice Beam, even at full health, to maintain momentum may be a good play against the Scarf set, even if you "incorrect" predicted U-Turn so you can Sub, as you would get a highly rewarding Sub, and at worst lose material and gain momentum when the Genesect user has to send in a Pokemon before you can. If you want to be even more conservative, use "Protect".
Physically Defensive Rotom-W can sponge U-Turns (and resists its coverage moves and is only hit neutrally with T-bolt) and use one its moves against whatever you predict the switch-in to be. It also has the threat of momentum in Volt Switch with as it is slower. Just remember using 44 Speed EVs puts you at a disadvantage against slower Rotom-W although this would ensure to Will-O-Wisp Mega Mawile before it subs, and Volt Switch Jolly Azumarill.
Physically Defensive Rotom-W and Gliscor are not counters or checks to Genesect, but they do provide nice counterplay options against Volt-Turn that makes Genesect's life (or its partners) more stressful. They allow you to play Genesect's game and have nice tools to help you beat it.
Although AV Conkeldurr cannot reliably switch into Genesect, its presence on the battlefield deters the use of Genesect as Conkeldurr's predictable moveset has to potential to punish Genesect and any U-Turn switch in. It is also a nice "fuck you" to Sucker Punchers like Bisharp.
Thundurus-I cripples Genesect before it can attack you and prevent it from conducting another scouting run or assassination attempt, but this often require you to sac it.
AV Conkeldurr, Rotom-W, Thundurus-I, and Gliscor work and do not depend of the maintenance of hazards but rather by their offensive and support moveset and ability.
Genesect cannot constantly U-turn if Stealth Rock is up. Often I have to preserve it to act as a revenge killer against a priority sweeper, and that deters me from using it when hazards are up. Rocky Helmet and Iron Barbs/Rough Skin are good deterrents against conservative users of Genesect.
It's barely OU, it was right on the 3.41% line. Once January stats are out it will probably be UU.
Deoxys-S does not have OU usage.
And yeah, Klefki is OU. But what the people discounting it were trying to say is that it isn't very good (please don't turn this into a discussion about Klefki, that's just their opinions).
its really a no brainer to cripple something that is powerfull and fast
Indeed, but the other criteria for banning can too abstract and open to highly subjective intrepretations interpretation.
Stare decisis is a conservative jurisprudence concept. Too many people are ban happy and liberal in regard to Genesect. Prudence is anti-ban and wait.
"Too good" is synonymous with "broken". One can argue that Genesect is the best at generating momentum, but something has to be the ordinal best. If Genesect is banned, perhaps the penultimate would be the best.
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Why vacuum wave when you just OHKO with aura sphere?
At this point people are really discussing the same points over and over again. There is not much about lucario in pages 20-30 that was not said in pages 1-10
So lets ask about the suspect test ladder. The ladder is already a couple of days old. What do you guys think about this metagame? Is it more fun? What is doing better now? What is the new OP mega people are using? How is stall doing?
So lets ask about the suspect test ladder. The ladder is already a couple of days old. What do you guys think about this metagame? Is it more fun? What is doing better now? What is the new OP mega people are using? How is stall doing?
There really is no point in winding on about Mega Luke when literally every point has been made in this thread at least twice. Stick to Gene and Deo-s.
A lot of people are down playing the scarf set, claiming that Gene's unpredictability and sweeping sets are what make it so strong. While they are both viable arguments, I would say that I find Scarf Physical Genesect to be the most useful and viable set. Fast, potentially +1 U-turns from the non-invested special Gene already threaten more than any other volt/turner, and investing in attack threatens so much more. It gives Genesect a lot more leg room with prediction (U-turn's KO range becomes bigger, giving you more "KO or free switch" scenarios) and Iron Head gives you a reliable STAB that hits hard at +1. (I'm not shouting about Steel's offensive coverage, however it has improved in Gen VI.) Physically defensive Rotom-W can't cut it any more - he takes too much from U-Turn.
You then have two more slots for special coverage, the most obvious ones being flamethrower and ice beam. I don't need to list things 4x weak to them to prove they're good, we already know all that. Extremespeed is also an option for Talonflame, depending on your team build up. It's a bit redundant with scarf, though.
I also dislike how much people are downplaying how much momentum Genesect generates. "KO or free switch" is so powerful with offensive teams as the amount of offensive pressure you can keep, should your opponent switch, with other fast pokemon like Greninja, Analytic Starmie, Terrakion, Landorus-I, Keldeo, Thundurus-I and Latios, all of which are strong and fast in their own right. Hard hitters and wall/stall breakers like of Sub-3 attacks Kyu-B, Mega-Pinsir, Azumarill and Bisharp also appreciate free switches on things they threaten with their power. Not to mention Life Orb Deo-S and more notably, Mega-Lucario.
The "weakness" lies in the loss of momentum after a KO (this is already a net gain on your part), which can be patched up with offensive pivots like Landorus-T, Aegislash, AV Conkeldurr and Rotom-W.
With these ease of U-turn and strong teammates, it's not hard for Gene to wrack up easy kills and free switches - he can check so many viable Pokemon one way or another that the title of "momentum machine" does not do him justice.
I would agree with this, but I'm still rooting for it's ban. Feel free to shoot down part of this post: my experience is not as wide range as others may be, some of it is a little speculation because I mostly stick to what works for me. But that happens to include Genesect.
A lot of people are down playing the scarf set, claiming that Gene's unpredictability and sweeping sets are what make it so strong. While they are both viable arguments, I would say that I find Scarf Physical Genesect to be the most useful and viable set. Fast, potentially +1 U-turns from the non-invested special Gene already threaten more than any other volt/turner, and investing in attack threatens so much more. It gives Genesect a lot more leg room with prediction (U-turn's KO range becomes bigger, giving you more "KO or free switch" scenarios) and Iron Head gives you a reliable STAB that hits hard at +1. (I'm not shouting about Steel's offensive coverage, however it has improved in Gen VI.) Physically defensive Rotom-W can't cut it any more - he takes too much from U-Turn.
You then have two more slots for special coverage, the most obvious ones being flamethrower and ice beam. I don't need to list things 4x weak to them to prove they're good, we already know all that. Extremespeed is also an option for Talonflame, depending on your team build up. It's a bit redundant with scarf, though.
I also dislike how much people are downplaying how much momentum Genesect generates. "KO or free switch" is so powerful with offensive teams as the amount of offensive pressure you can keep, should your opponent switch, with other fast pokemon like Greninja, Analytic Starmie, Terrakion, Landorus-I, Keldeo, Thundurus-I and Latios, all of which are strong and fast in their own right. Hard hitters and wall/stall breakers like of Sub-3 attacks Kyu-B, Mega-Pinsir, Azumarill and Bisharp also appreciate free switches on things they threaten with their power. Not to mention Life Orb Deo-S and more notably, Mega-Lucario.
The "weakness" lies in the loss of momentum after a KO (this is already a net gain on your part), which can be patched up with offensive pivots like Landorus-T, Aegislash, AV Conkeldurr and Rotom-W.
With these ease of U-turn and strong teammates, it's not hard for Gene to wrack up easy kills and free switches - he can check so many viable Pokemon one way or another that the title of "momentum machine" does not do him justice.
lets say if mega luke did get banned. there would be a slight increase in chansey and blissey usage, then lets say if mega mawile mega medicham, mega heracross and mega tyranitar got banned then pretty much then the meta would be overrun by those 2 pokes because all the physical threats are banned and they would troll other players to death because they are facing something that cant even die plus something that stalls them out. in gen 5 nearly every team had a blissey or chansey and now they aren't getting as much usage because of said threats in 6th gen and honestly I prefer that the usage in those 2 pokes are kept to a minimum.
The only mega that is seriously being considered banworthy is Luke, there are other strong megas but they all fit well into the current OU Metagame, and as such the likelihood of them being banned is very low. There are other physical threats aside from megas you know, there is no way they'd all be banned.
...No? Even if they did somehow, miraculously, strangely, incredulously, insertawordherely, become banned, there are still Pokemon like Scizor, Terrakion, Keldeo, the list goes on, who'll still mess up Chansey and Blissey easily. Just because some Pokemon are banned doesn't mean the physical side of the game comes crashing down on its head.
Soooo, you don't want Mega Luke banned because you hate the pink blobs?
but the question is who keeps either evolite chansey or lefties blissey in for a physical move? the answer is obvious. no one does. they either switch into gliscor or avalugg to take the hit and then get your physical pokes out of the way and then just troll you until your team is dead.
not really I just don't want it to be banned because this is the first time that lucario could do something other than the extreme killer set because its normal form is kind of frail and requires sash and SD to even do something.
Are you that worried about those two? Infernape handles any physical/special wall core (SkarmBliss, AggroBliss, AvvaBliss). Conkeldur can break all of those. Bisharp breaks them, Hydregion breaks them, Alakazam can get close to breaking them, CB genesect with one special move can break them.
Again, your argument needs structure and real reason.
Again, your argument needs structure and real reason.
Infernape cant handle Gliscor. it pretty much shits on it with toxic stall, actually it shits on everything that isn't poison or steel or that has poison heal, immunity, natural cure, hydration or magic bounce and kills said types with e-quake.
Gliscor also loses to any special attacker, and anything with Substitute. Especially Gengar. Or Kyurem-B if you can get it in without getting Toxic'd, Substitute Kyurem beats just about every staller in the game.
But this thread is for the suspects, not Gliscor, so let's get back to that.
Maybe at the bottom of the ladder...
But even if that were true, it's irrelevant. They aren't hard to deal with for a well-built team, and are in no way more of a problem than Mega Lucario. Chansey and Blissey are in no way broken. Mega Lucario arguably (I say arguably because that's the point of this thread after all) IS, so who cares if Chansey and Blissey see more usage and something that's actually overpowered gets banned.
I've preferred to observe Gen 6 OU from afar rather than actively take part, but it hasn't taken much to show exactly how much of a problem Mega Lucario is. Like many others, I see Deoxys-Speed as the most likely to retain their spot in OU, but even in the game Mega Lucario was just too ridiculously good. I know the in-game AI are obviously not up to the team standards set by PS, but at least make the game a little more challenging eh?
I've not had a popular opinion on recent tests (I was quite hopeful Keldeo would be banned not long before XY's release, and I was hoping they'd ban Liepard instead of Assist-Prankster) but I can't help but feel I'm smartening up a little bit this time.
I've not had a popular opinion on recent tests (I was quite hopeful Keldeo would be banned not long before XY's release, and I was hoping they'd ban Liepard instead of Assist-Prankster) but I can't help but feel I'm smartening up a little bit this time.
Genesect has a fast U-turn and many of the aforementioned partners are frail and can be dealt by anticipating their switch-in and attacking them. This requires something to sponge a U-turn. If Genesect scores a kill, it has to forfeit momentum. Scarf Genesect creates parity due to it being choice-locked against teams that are not immensely weak to its common attacks.
Genesect's below average bulk for a pivot prevents it from switching in, and critically, reliably going Scarfless to sponge hits from faster Pokemon, and switch out. It almost always has to use fast U-turn because cannot switch in on anything or absorb hits despite its good defensive typing, and that is an inherent limitation that one can play around.
Gliscor shut all those Pokemon down due to its Volt Switch immunity, U-turn resistance (it takes chip damage from it), and passable bulk. At best, prediction from AV Conkeldurr removes the Toxic Orb from the switch and Hydro Pump does not guarantee a KO when Stealth Rock is off the field, and often the core's Stealth Rock setter is Lando-T and it is hapless from Gliscor, whose best option is to U-turn away from the core into the periphery before it can set up Stealth Rock. Ice Punch without a status doesn't KO Gliscor, although Life Orb + Iron Fist does.
I do not know the calcs, but one can put special defensive investment to ensure it survives uninvested Hydro Pump at full health or probably after Stealth Rock. Survival is more important than the amount of health to Gliscor since it has the Ground and Electric immunity and good speed to spread Toxic if it decides to sacrifices itself.
An unorthodox option to deal with Gliscor within the core can be Knock Off instead of U-Turn on Lando-T to hit Gliscor on the switch, and is highly superior to U-Turn in that case, but this is highly situational. Manectric cannot OHKO with HP Ice.
In general, Gliscor does not mind the entry hazards that the Genesect user can leverage.
Genesect gives that core a chance against Gliscor. Only a chance, those as Genesect has to forfeit momentum just to break the Sub or kill it with prediction on the switch. Genesect can kill Gliscor but it does not counter it.
The narrow distribution of Ice Beam and shittyness of HP Ice this Gen 6 help Gliscor a lot. It also shutdown the common spinner Excadrill when its Balloon is popped and status and outspeed Mandibuzz for status. Thundurus-I needs Life Orb to kill it and does not get free switches. Icicle Spear or Cloyster on the physical side? Also, Kyu-B needs a clean field to destroy things and has many counters.
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I apologize for the disquisition into Gliscor but one can inquiry into how Gensect synergizes cores, especially against its problems...
As I pointed out with the Gliscor example, Genesect can only be as good as its partners that it can U-turn out to, and that's if it is being used as a U-turner, not revenge killer. It was banned last gen due to its capacity to be a terrifying sweeper, in addition to the roles it can perform as a Scarf and EBelter.
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I slapped on a Kyurem-B with a Rotom-W, Lando-T, and AV Conkeldurr core. It obviously needs a "free" switch. Kyurem-B can handle Stealth Rock even with Life Orb, but Toxic would be lethal. Even if it is in, it would only force Gliscor out into a check. At best it would force Gliscor out. Kyurem-B is too ponderous and does not like to switch out; I intend to use it on a stall-breaking run when its checks has been removed.
Kyurem-B cannot beat Blissey or any Fairy.
Gengar can get a free switch in the SubToxic set but it needs to watch out for Knock Off.
Genesect is only as a good as its partners. It can been seen as part of a core, or the periphery of the core. I do not primarily regard Genesect as a U-turner as I do not highly value its defensive traits or see much defensive synergy with Rotom-W or Lando-T, so I do not see it as part of a Volt-Turn core with Rotom-W. I am more likely to use Hydro Pump prophylatically than risk the Volt-Switch being predicted.
Its efficacy also depends on the state of the field. This is a corollary to the adage that "Genesect is only as a good as its partners". It does not solve any of the problems that the defensive core it supplements suffers, but it certainly has the tools to remedy them. That is why Genesect is an asset, but the effective application of those tools can be thwarted by the opponent and the core would be rendered impotent. I do not use hazard removal so I have less control over hazards. If Genesect is not supplemented by hazard control, its efficacy wanes dramatically. As a result, I cannot use it liberally as a momentum generator, and I have to live with that. Hell, even the odd Galvantula Sticky Web put it at a disadvantage.
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