Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Photofluid]

Scizor doesn't face 4mss lol BP/u-turn/roost/defog makes a perfectly respectable defogger and this set has been used in the SPL too, (week 4)
Gliscor, I agree, it doesn't really like losing poison heal for defog, but its one of the only defoggers that can actually take on bisharp somewhat, so he's still good. A set of defog/roost/eq/filler does fine, with filler being taunt, toxic, or a bunch of other stuff.
Skarmory doesn't appreciate +2 knock off the first time, but after that, I'm pretty sure it does less than 50%, so skarm can take on bisharp too. Roost/defog/whirlwind/ and taunt or bb, preference really. These guys get the job done well and don't really face 4mss in any way.

Also, I've been seeing hp fighting latias becoming a thing on the defogger set, so that has to be taken into account as well before you just click knock off with bisharp.

And once again, we have plenty of decent defoggers in the tier, like mandibuzz, zapdos, scizor, skarmory, lat@s, even empoleon isn't that bad.
The match-ups of these guys against bisharp aren't terrible either, scizor can just u-turn out, roost the damage later, zapdos heat waves, bisharp can't break through skarm, but mandibuzz and lati@s are a problem :/

This is all ignoring the fact that overall, pokemon with access to defog are just better than pokemon with access to rapid spin. It's not easy to fit an excadrill or a starmie in, but its much easier to just smack a zapdos or a scizor on a team and go at it with relative success.

But still, I don't like how people keep claiming that rapid spin cannot be something to be actively pursued. SR remains the most effective way to check Charizard, Pinsir, Talonflame, and to a less extend the majority of the pivots in the game(like Genesect). And using defog can lose you so much momentum when you need your SR back as soon as possible, well, perhaps not possible at all because they may just switch in and tax you hard before that happens.

Btw, it is actually fun to see how two team with defog deal with the SR on the field when no one want to pay for the momentum.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

Are you implying I'm not a good player fren?
People should rarely be using rapid spin because of the shit distribution and ability to be blocked, excadrill doesn't fit most teams, and most others are generally worthless. Teams that run defog over rapid spin don't desperately need sr off, it's mostly to protect from deo hyper offense while not being forced to use shit mons. And to say that defog is only for if you aren't running hazards is absolutely ridiculous. Running sr and defog isn't ridiculous at all, as long as your not using a deoxys defog is fine. I'm not gonna lie, nearly everything you have said here is wrong, latis are great defoggers, including latios. Ik this paragraph rambled a bit but I was just reading through yours looking through the bullshit :p

In summary, rapid spin is a niche option this gen cuz I would like to use good mons like latis or scizor not either excadrill or shit (and exca isn't that good tbh, it's slow and not pwrful enough to really threaten stall)

Also, like 6 excas on 60 spl teams and two starmies, one was trick specs. I guarantee every team that wasn't deo hyper offense had defog, showing which is the dominant (and better ) move

excadrill fits into every team that uses talonflame, which is most offensive teams. Most teams also kind of like having their hazards up. defog is a fucking alternative, not an end all be all replacement, especially when you consider the numerous differences (rapid spin can't be taunted and also removes leech seed and trapping moves, defog removes screens and can't be blocked)

 

[Seiterman]

Wobbufet is the kind of Pokemon that doesn't get better; it adapts to the metagame around it. Wobbufet already occupies a niche only it can fulfill, but is it in high demand? There are reasons why Talonflame is so damn common, while Smeargle and Wobbufet not so much. Are there more Pokemon it can safely trap, more Pokemon to benefit from its support, more opponents that easily do away with Wobbufet....these are all what affects Wobbufet's rank. I find that potential teammates and enemies for Wobb go hand in hand: usually the Pokemon that can become very dangerous with one free turn of setup are also the ones capable of overwhelming Wobbufet, so they don't often work in favor in terms of judging Wobb's ranking.

Wobb has two jobs it can do at once: Encore to let a teammate setup, or CounterCoat an opponent to death. More often than not, Wobb will be too damaged beyond repair by doing one job to effectively do the other. I mean, the fact that Wobb at least has options to respond to scenarios, but won't being forced to choose between the two instead of doing both reliably affect its ranking?


I don't know how you've used Wobbufet to suggest it is easy setup bait for sweepers: the whole point of Shadow Tag Encore is to turn the opponent's setup sweepers into the setup bait. That is one of Wobbufet's biggest selling points.

However, Wobbufet is woefully prone to residual damage which can bypass CounterCoat (mostly status), it lacks any recovery, and its typing is absolute garbage since it provides minimal resists which would make it easier to Encore opponents. If you want to be truly effective at your job, you'll have to be able to do it more than once: no one wants a Talonflame that revenges only one opponent (ironically, this happens in the hands of most inexperienced players). Even Smeargle can at least lay down Sticky Web and Spore / Dark Void an opponent with some consistency (guess the key word).

I agree with Jukain on its C+ ranking, but B- is the most I'd shoot for since that was its ranking in BW OU.

It doesn't necessarily need to be in high demand to be highly viable. Usage is obviously not based on how good something is (seriously, look at some of the current OU mons,) but a factor that plays majorly into usage is how easy it is to use a Pokemon. Take Scizor, for example, in past generations. He's never been the be-all end-all of great Pokemon. His high usage primarily comes from being easy to fit into teams and being easy to use once in a team. Wobb can't be slapped onto any team, and he has a higher risk associated with using him due to the skill required on the player's part.

No, I don't think having to choose between one of those two jobs really affects Wobb's ranking. He's had the same issue for a long time now. Again, if he manages to do one of those jobs, his team will be far better off for it. As long as you can capitalize on that support Wobb is definitely worth it.

We literally just agreed that Wobb has to rely on a coin flip when up against setup sweepers that can already 2HKO him. Like, a few posts ago. Weaker setup sweepers and setup support mons he handles fine, but having to guess whether a Pokemon will go for the 2HKO or setup and OHKO is a problem.

The assertion that a job needs to be done more than once is just wrong. It's wholly dependent on what job needs to be done. Trapping a troublesome foe only needs to happen once. A revenge killer should be able to do its thing more than once, yeah (Wobb can revenge kill, but really only should in a pinch, since that's not his strong point or reason for a teamslot.)

Lastly, Smeargle is... just no. It's only consistent against players that don't know what they're doing. If you have Taunt, it can't do anything. If you have a multi-hit move, it can't do anything. If you have a Grass-type to absorb Spore, it'll probably get Sticky Web up then be dead weight. If it's using Dark Void there's a non-negligible miss chance (important when arguing for consistency.) There are just so many good ways to deal with a Smeargle, and there's a big difference between getting Sticky Web up once at the start of a match while maybe sleeping something and KOing an important threat or allowing your sweeper to set up and win.

 

[CrymsonEchidna]

It doesn't matter if Aegislash "resists" Mirror Coat (you do not resist a fixed damage attack), any Shadow Ball that doesn't KO Wobb would result in a Mirror Coat OHKO.

If you are switching it in while still in Shield form, yes it isn't too much of an issue.

 

[arenten]

Smeargle should be B or B+ as a supportive threat. Players who know what to do will still be in fear of Sticky Web or a Dark Void, and will have to sacrifice a pokemon. However, they will often be prepared for a Smeargle lead and lead with their counter. For an example, I run sr/spikes/bravebird/sleeptalk on my lead Skarmory, because Sleep Talk lets me bypass the predicted Spore and fire back with a brave bird / hazards.

 

[Uore]

Zygarde should be A- At a minimum.

Need a offensive tank? zygarde.

Need a sweeper? zygarde.

Need a Klefki/prankster stopper? zygarde.

 

[Uore]

Zygarde should be A- At a minimum.

Need a offensive tank? zygarde.

Need a sweeper? zygarde.

Need a Klefki/prankster stopper? zygarde.

Oh, also anyone try a stick web archeops team?

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

.....Im serious about zygarde.

I can't remember who it was, but there was some discussion regarding him a couple pages back with a certain SubCoil set. I think the consensus reached was B+ or B, though I do not remember for certain.

 

[Subject 18]

Zygarde should be A- At a minimum.

I completely disagree. Zygarde is largely outclassed by other bulky ground types in the tier. Such as Landorus-T, Hippowdon and Garchomp.

Need a offensive tank? zygarde.

Landorus-T fills this role much better. Even bulky Garchomp is on par if not better for this role.

Need a sweeper? zygarde.

Again Dragonite, Mega Zard X both outclass it as Dragon Dance sweepers. Garchomp is much stronger as a sweeper as well though it does lack the speed boost. Even after a Dragon Dance or two Zygarde is still pretty weak. The Coil set is pretty cool and has a nice niche but its not enough to bump it up to A-.

 

[Karxrida]

Smeargle should be B or B+ as a supportive threat. Players who know what to do will still be in fear of Sticky Web or a Dark Void, and will have to sacrifice a pokemon. However, they will often be prepared for a Smeargle lead and lead with their counter. For an example, I run sr/spikes/bravebird/sleeptalk on my lead Skarmory, because Sleep Talk lets me bypass the predicted Spore and fire back with a brave bird / hazards.

I disagree. Any remotely smart player can make your Smeargle completely useless just by leading with a Taunter or Grass Type. Smeargle is only usable as a suicide lead in a meta where they are almost completely dead. C- at best, and I'm being generous.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

I disagree. Any remotely smart player can make your Smeargle completely useless just by leading with a Taunter or Grass Type. Smeargle is only usable as a suicide lead in a meta where they are almost completely dead. C- at best, and I'm being generous.

...unless you're me running a Smeargle with Leftovers using the moves Spore/Imprison/Mean Look/Transform, copy the opposing Mega Venusaur, and take three of your opponent's Pokemon.

But in a NORMAL environment and assuming normal sets, yeah...Smeargle is still what it is and has been.

 

[arenten]

I disagree. Any remotely smart player can make your Smeargle completely useless just by leading with a Taunter or Grass Type. Smeargle is only usable as a suicide lead in a meta where they are almost completely dead. C- at best, and I'm being generous.

I said lead with their counter.

 

[Punchshroom]

What I find irksome about Wobbufet is that if it takes too much damage, it can no longer do its job(s). Against any stronger attackers that you respond with Wobbufet to, a single mispredict can render it deadweight. Shadow Tag Encore is still nice though, even if it will only be used like once or twice per match, as is its selective revenge killing against weaker threats, so I wouldn't put that past me.

Lastly, Smeargle is... just no. It's only consistent against players that don't know what they're doing. If you have Taunt, it can't do anything. If you have a multi-hit move, it can't do anything. If you have a Grass-type to absorb Spore, it'll probably get Sticky Web up then be dead weight. If it's using Dark Void there's a non-negligible miss chance (important when arguing for consistency.) There are just so many good ways to deal with a Smeargle, and there's a big difference between getting Sticky Web up once at the start of a match while maybe sleeping something and KOing an important threat or allowing your sweeper to set up and win.

I disagree. Any remotely smart player can make your Smeargle completely useless just by leading with a Taunter or Grass Type. Smeargle is only usable as a suicide lead in a meta where they are almost completely dead. C- at best, and I'm being generous.

People fall into the general assumption that Smeargle is completely predictable. What people forget is that not all Smeargles are the same, especially given that it can learn damn near every move in the game. Among the list of moves it can learn are: Sticky Web (its current niche), Magic Coat (blocks Taunt), Dark Void (circumvents Grasses), Explosion (stops slower Rapid Spinners or Defoggers), Parting Shot (turns your Smeargle response into setup bait), stat boost + Baton Pass (I really don't need to explain this one), and a shitton of other moves I can't explain off the top of my head like Transform or whatever the fuck. How are you supposed to prepare for all this? Don't write off Smeargle just because you've had an easy time with it in several encounters: I've never lost to Swagger Klefki yet I still register it as a threat.

I completely disagree. Zygarde is largely outclassed by other bulky ground types in the tier. Such as Landorus-T, Hippowdon and Garchomp.

One is a bulky pivot, one is a wall, and the other is your traditional speedy sweeper. Zygarde is none of these; it's a bulky booster with access to wonderful boosting moves.

Again Dragonite, Mega Zard X both outclass it as Dragon Dance sweepers. Garchomp is much stronger as a sweeper as well though it does lack the speed boost. Even after a Dragon Dance or two Zygarde is still pretty weak. The Coil set is pretty cool and has a nice niche but its not enough to bump it up to A-.

Zygarde still has its advantages over both Dragonite and XZard, mainly its SR resistance and Ground STAB (plus Extreme Speed). Zygarde is a very viable option for teams who want a Dragon Dancer but aren't bothered to get rid of SR. For the record, DD Zygarde is not very weak at all: it may be weaker in comparison to Nite, but alternate STAB in Earthquake means it doesn't have to spam Outrage against any remotely bulky opponent it sees, and unlike XZard (if not running Roost) it has little to fear from priority. That, and the SubCoil set is the absolute tits to play against defensive teams since damn near nothing short of an Ice / Fairy move can break the Sub.

I will admit that Zygarde needs to boost if it wants to stand out as an offensive threat unlike other Dragons (bar Noivern lol), but B+ could be good for it.

 

[Expulso]

While we're talking about Zygarde, ChestoRest Zygarde with Coil/EQ/Dragon Tail is pretty good; thoughts?

 

[Magicfire]

I think Zygarde is fine where it is, I'd go for Landorus over him as a Ground-type; I'd also go for Garchomp, Dragonite, or Charizard X over him as well (and I'm pretty sure that most decent players will as well). Without boosting, it's barely a threat.

Coil set is pretty nice, but not good enough to make it an A.

 

[Ruffles]

Alright I'd like to nominate something that is pretty underrated.

I'd like to Nominate it to C+

Cofagrigus gives a lot of support to team, WoW, TR, Haze, Toxic, Protect, Pain Split, Haze, Knock Off, and the new Infestation is a great addition.

furthermore, Cofagrigus can be a TR sweeper thx to TR + NP, with respectable 95 base SpA and Shadow Ball + HP Fighting. I personally prefer the defensive set with WoW + Infestation, and, while not reliable, Pain Split is an ok method to heal, Rest is always there too. But you know what? Infestation is actually pretty good.

I want to bring more attention on Mummy and dat base 145 Defense though. Mummy will screw a lot of physical attackers who depend on their ability, such as Azumarill, Mega Mawile, Scizor, Charizard X, Mega Pinsir, Physical Mega Lucario, Talonflame, Mega Medicham, Infernape, etc.

Yes, it is outclassed by other ghost- types in the support category, such as Sableye, and Trevenant. but Cofagrigus is the ultimate counter for Physical attackers (That are not Dark- type) and this gen, you can trap them with infestation, you'll be doing a lot with Infestation + Wow, maybe Protect to rub it in and make that Leftovers more useful? Hell yeah.

252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def set is definitely usable too, but I'd honestly take 248 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD Bold anytime as the meta thrives with Physical attackers.

Physically defensive set:

252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 106-126 (33.1 - 39.3%) -- 12.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 118-141 (36.8 - 44%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 154-183 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 77-91 (24 - 28.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Pain Split then Infestation, Spam Hex + Protect?

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 148-175 (46.2 - 54.6%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 142-168 (44.3 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Charizard X will most likely win by spamming DD, but if you have Toxic, Protect, Infestation, and 252 HP / 252+ Def, you should have a good chance of winning against it, especially if you have Pain Split / Hex.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 138-163 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers rec

If Mega Pinsir loses Aeratilaitel GG my friend.


Cofagrigus does have pitiful SpD and HP, very slow but all the more reason to use TR, not reliable recovery, 4MSS, is outclassed by Sableye as it can stall Specially and Physically defensive, Trevenant does an equally good job / bit better with Leech Seed (But has a lot of more weaknesses)

This video does let Cofagrigus shine a bit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&list=UUU_mC__7H8NBJzX8ubMGY4Q&v=PLttQgmK8tE

If I may.

Also, Trevenant is missing it's name in the OP.

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

Is Deoxy-S A+ for it's hazard set or it's lo set?

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Alright I'd like to nominate something that is pretty underrated.

I'd like to Nominate it to C+

Cofagrigus gives a lot of support to team, WoW, TR, Haze, Toxic, Protect, Pain Split, Haze, Knock Off, and the new Infestation is a great addition.

furthermore, Cofagrigus can be a TR sweeper thx to TR + NP, with respectable 95 base SpA and Shadow Ball + HP Fighting. I personally prefer the defensive set with WoW + Infestation, and, while not reliable, Pain Split is an ok method to heal, Rest is always there too. But you know what? Infestation is actually pretty good.

I want to bring more attention on Mummy and dat base 145 Defense though. Mummy will screw a lot of physical attackers who depend on their ability, such as Azumarill, Mega Mawile, Scizor, Charizard X, Mega Pinsir, Physical Mega Lucario, Talonflame, Mega Medicham, Infernape, etc.

Yes, it is outclassed by other ghost- types in the support category, such as Sableye, and Trevenant. but Cofagrigus is the ultimate counter for Physical attackers (That are not Dark- type) and this gen, you can trap them with infestation, you'll be doing a lot with Infestation + Wow, maybe Protect to rub it in and make that Leftovers more useful? Hell yeah.

252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def set is definitely usable too, but I'd honestly take 248 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD Bold anytime as the meta thrives with Physical attackers.

Physically defensive set:

252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 106-126 (33.1 - 39.3%) -- 12.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 118-141 (36.8 - 44%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 154-183 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 77-91 (24 - 28.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Pain Split then Infestation, Spam Hex + Protect?

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 148-175 (46.2 - 54.6%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 142-168 (44.3 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Charizard X will most likely win by spamming DD, but if you have Toxic, Protect, Infestation, and 252 HP / 252+ Def, you should have a good chance of winning against it, especially if you have Pain Split / Hex.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 138-163 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers rec

If Mega Pinsir loses Aeratilaitel GG my friend.


Cofagrigus does have pitiful SpD and HP, very slow but all the more reason to use TR, not reliable recovery, 4MSS, is outclassed by Sableye as it can stall Specially and Physically defensive, Trevenant does an equally good job / bit better with Leech Seed (But has a lot of more weaknesses)

This video does let Cofagrigus shine a bit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&list=UUU_mC__7H8NBJzX8ubMGY4Q&v=PLttQgmK8tE

If I may.

Also, Trevenant is missing it's name in the OP.

You basically said it all in the end: why would I ever want to use Cofagrigus over Trevenant or Sableye?
I'm sure there's a reason, but you need to convince me.

Is Deoxy-S A+ for it's hazard set or it's lo set?

Both. We rate a pokemon based on all its viable sets. (LO is the best one though).

 

[TaBuu]

Nomination for A+ Rank

Pros

• Base 105 Attack in tandem with Huge Power means Mega Mawile is not playing any games.
• Near perfect coverage in STAB Play Rough and Sucker Punch.
• Has access to Swords Dance and Substitute allowing Mega Mawile to f*ck over defensive and offensive teams respectively.
• It's not frail - Base 125 Defense with Intimidate as a pre-MEvo ability allows Mega Mawile to switch in and stomach hits when it needs to.
• Oh, let's not forget its 9 resistances and 2 immunities.

Cons

• Base 50 Speed is a hindrance and although Sucker Punch is a semi-alleviation, things like Rotom Wash can score a Will O Wisp.
• Two weaknesses to two common elements : Fire and Ground
• Anything faster that can stomach an unboosted Sucker Punch and threaten a KO (i.e Garchomp) is a shaky but nonetheless viable answer.
• Straight up physical walls (i.e Skarmory) can phaze out Mega Mawile. However, they should be careful about switching in carelessly as even unboosted hits can sting.
  252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 152-180 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 178-211 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
  252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 320-380 (90.9 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
• Fire Types in general can be a bit of a problem most notably Heatran.

 

[doughboy]

Just from a quick look at the list, some stuff really needs to be moved around:

Moved down:

Goodra C+ Rank
Mega-Aerodactyl C Rank
Dragonite B+ Rank
Tentacruel C Rank
Infernape C+ Rank
Celebi C+ Rank
Liepard D Rank, preferably E Rank for "don't ever use"

Goodra and Mega-Aerodactyl are possibly the most inflated Pokemon on this list. From my experience, Goodra is definitely not a threat to prepare for above Mega-Medicham or Gliscor. It's ability as a defensive tank is limited because of the lack of resistance's, reliable recovery, and a small support movepool. Competition with Latias is very intense because Latias has some critical extra resists, most importantly Fighting + Ground immunity, and Defog / Healing Wish that can support its team very well. Also Goodra loses momentum in games by being susceptible to all the other dragons being faster + most physical attackers. Mega Aerodactyl is probably the worse Mega-evolution. It's ability doesn't really do anything for it, its not very powerful, and its niche as a revenge killer is heavily contended with Deoxys-S and stacking priority users on a team.

Dragonite doesn't really fit in with all the other A tier Pokemon. It faces a 4MSS scenario of choosing between hitting Skarmory, Aegislash, or faster revenge killers as targets to beat. Dragonite's power is not very immediate either unlike other Dragons or sweepers, since his main STAB is now a measly 80 base power and it is very slow. You also have high pressure to keep multiscale intact, since if it isn't having enough health to set up DD and sweep will not happen. However its powerful Extremespeed, especially behind a CB or DD, is a great tool to take down a lot of the offensive teams in the metagame.

Tentacruel is a pretty bad option to spin in this meta because it's entire strategy for Aegislash is to pray it gets the burn with Scald. It no longer has the recovery of rain behind it, so it is no longer "immune" to Jellicent's Will-o-Wisp wearing it down. Tentacruel can't get past Trevnant or Gourgeist at all. Celebi provides a lot of switch-in oppurtunities to the most powerful and used offensive threats in the game: Charizard, Genesect, Mega-Pinsir, Latios, Aegislash, Talonflame, Bisharp, Tyranitar, etc. So while providing all these free switchins it doesn't really cover the offensive threats any better than competing Pokemon do. It isn't gen 5 anymore where 100% accurate burning hydro pumps are flying everywhere (rain scald q.q)

Hide

Liepard because it uses a strategy that is entirely based on luck to win. You are just going for a 50% coinflip. If you think swag play should be used as a legitimate strategy, screw you lol

Moved up:
Galvantula B+ or A- Rank
Mega-Medicham A- Rank
Mega-Manectric A- Rank

Galvantula has distinguished itself as the best dedicated Sticky Web user because it has a good amount of power behind it + good speed to reapply sticky web mid-game if necessary. Sticky Web is really just that good in an offensive of a meta as this one to warrant Galvantula being moved that much higher.

Mega Medicham is a really fearsome attacker that demolishes most defensive teams without Aegislash. While priority Bullet Punch is really nice to find an opportunity to mega-evolve, having a third coverage move really makes you unstoppable by anything slower than you. Nothing can take the combination of HJK, Ice Punch, Fire Punch, and Zen Headbutt outside of Aegislash. The speed issue is really overplayed on Mega-Medicham, base 100 is a completely capable speed tier. I find Bullet Punch and especially Fake Out aren't buying you anything really in the speed department outside of picking up a kill on a weakened Lati@s. Note you can tank a hit from Terrakion since you resist its STAB's.

Mega-Manetric has really surprised me of how stellar of a check it can be to a lot of offensive threats out there. Intimidate + high speed, enough to outrun Adamant DD dragonite and gyarados, means it can check a decent amount of sweepers. Mega Pinsir, Dragonite, Gyarados, Talonflame, Scizor, Manaphy, Shift Gear Gene etc. Manetric's expanded coverage with Flamethrower / Overheat against Grass-types and Steel-types really distinguishes it from other Electric-types, since certain Grass-types (cough ferrothorn) can't feel safe even with the Hidden Power nerf.

 

[Seiterman]

People fall into the general assumption that Smeargle is completely predictable. What people forget is that not all Smeargles are the same, especially given that it can learn damn near every move in the game. Among the list of moves it can learn are: Sticky Web (its current niche), Magic Coat (blocks Taunt), Dark Void (circumvents Grasses), Explosion (stops slower Rapid Spinners or Defoggers), Parting Shot (turns your Smeargle response into setup bait), stat boost + Baton Pass (I really don't need to explain this one), and a shitton of other moves I can't explain off the top of my head like Transform or whatever the fuck. How are you supposed to prepare for all this? Don't write off Smeargle just because you've had an easy time with it in several encounters: I've never lost to Swagger Klefki yet I still register it as a threat.

A great movepool is meaningless when you can't utilize it well.

• Sticky Web, as I argued with Galvantula, is extremely useful. However, there's no way you're getting this up more than once with Smeargle (keep in mind I argued in Galvantula's favor, and believe that Galvantula has assets to get the hazard up at least one more time.) Smeargle just doesn't have the speed, bulk or offensive presence to do it more than once. In this regard, I believe that Galvantula is a better user of the move in most, if not all, situations.
  
• Magic Coat is neat, and honestly it's one of the better options for Smeargle. Many Taunt users this generation aren't exactly pushovers though. If you manage to use the move correctly and Taunt the opposing Pokemon, in many cases they'll just break your sash and take the incoming Spore/Dark Void, so they're not exactly worse for wear than normal. There's also the issue of an opponent directly attacking instead of Taunting. While this isn't exactly a smart move unless they know you're carrying Magic Coat, it's not impossible. In that case you just flat-out lose Smeargle. Still, it's a good move that I would certainly run on Smeargle if I decided to run him.
• Personally, I don't like the idea that my Pokemon has a 1/5 chance of just failing to accomplish anything in battle, so Dark Void isn't my thing. Smearlge needs that free turn. Yeah, getting past Grass-types is great, but playing with one less Pokemon every few matches with nothing to show for it seems like a less-than-stellar idea. Other moves miss, but generally it isn't the end of the world for that Pokemon in every situation in which it misses.
  
• What is Explosion stopping? I'm not against pumping those HP/Def/SpDef EV's into Attack since it does make a meaningful difference against frail threats and it's not like Smeargle is gonna survive a hit without Focus Sash, but it really doesn't have the power to stop much of anything. With 252 Attack EV's and a Jolly nature, Smeargle fails to OHKO Starmie with Explosion. An Adamant nature doesn't fix that, and is also ill-advised since you likely need that Speed. You can't even go with a Normal Gem or boosting item since you need the Focus Sash to ensure you're not OHKO'd by the first thing that hits you with an Attack. If you want to go out while doing something with Smeargle, go with Memento. That gives you a much more concrete benefit than Explosion.
• Parting Shot is another neat idea, but it's likely hard to get off after you've set up Sticky Web. Sure, you could go for this first, but why? Parting Shot isn't so good as to warrant using Smeargle solely for it.
  
• Baton Passing boosts with Smeargle didn't work for him last gen when he got Quiver Dance and Shell Smash to play with. I don't see what's changed to make him suddenly able to actually pull this off.

So, he's not entirely predictable, but there are few things he can do well/without being outclassed severely. On top of that, he has what may be the most problematic case of 4MSS in all of Pokemon. Those moves would all be great together, but you can't run them all at once. Without Magic Coat, you're Taunt bait. Without Dark Void, you're gonna get blocked by Grass-types. Without Spore you flat-out won't be guaranteed to actually do anything. Without Sticky Web you're giving up one of his only usable niches entirely. There's also Taunt, Memento and Endeavor to mention. Yeah, he can do stuff, and when it's pulled off it's a great boon to the team. He just can't do things as well or reliably as others, and his niches lie in strategies that aren't used much for a reason.

Like with your SwaggerKey example, this doesn't mean I'd write Smeargle off entirely. You need to know what you're doing around it and be prepared for literally anything. So long as you are, though, you likely won't be in too much trouble.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Nomination for A+ Rank

Pros

• Base 105 Attack in tandem with Huge Power means Mega Mawile is not playing any games.
• Near perfect coverage in STAB Play Rough and Sucker Punch.
• Has access to Swords Dance and Substitute allowing Mega Mawile to f*ck over defensive and offensive teams respectively.
• It's not frail - Base 125 Defense with Intimidate as a pre-MEvo ability allows Mega Mawile to switch in and stomach hits when it needs to.
• Oh, let's not forget its 9 resistances and 2 immunities.

Cons

• Base 50 Speed is a hindrance and although Sucker Punch is a semi-alleviation, things like Rotom Wash can score a Will O Wisp.
• Two weaknesses to two common elements : Fire and Ground
• Anything faster that can stomach an unboosted Sucker Punch and threaten a KO (i.e Garchomp) is a shaky but nonetheless viable answer.
• Straight up physical walls (i.e Skarmory) can phaze out Mega Mawile. However, they should be careful about switching in carelessly as even unboosted hits can sting.
  252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 152-180 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 178-211 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
  252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 320-380 (90.9 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
• Fire Types in general can be a bit of a problem most notably Heatran.

We discussed this a little while back and just about everyone agrees that Mega Mawile deserves A+, so yeah.

Just from a quick look at the list, some stuff really needs to be moved around:

Moved down:

Goodra C+ Rank
Mega-Aerodactyl C Rank
Dragonite B+ Rank
Tentacruel C Rank
Infernape C+ Rank
Celebi C+ Rank
Liepard D Rank, preferably E Rank for "don't ever use"

Goodra and Mega-Aerodactyl are possibly the most inflated Pokemon on this list. From my experience, Goodra is definitely not a threat to prepare for above Mega-Medicham or Gliscor. It's ability as a defensive tank is limited because of the lack of resistance's, reliable recovery, and a small support movepool. Competition with Latias is very intense because Latias has some critical extra resists, most importantly Fighting + Ground immunity, and Defog / Healing Wish that can support its team very well. Also Goodra loses momentum in games by being susceptible to all the other dragons being faster + most physical attackers. Mega Aerodactyl is probably the worse Mega-evolution. It's ability doesn't really do anything for it, its not very powerful, and its niche as a revenge killer is heavily contended with Deoxys-S and stacking priority users on a team.

Dragonite doesn't really fit in with all the other A tier Pokemon. It faces a 4MSS scenario of choosing between hitting Skarmory, Aegislash, or faster revenge killers as targets to beat. Dragonite's power is not very immediate either unlike other Dragons or sweepers, since his main STAB is now a measly 80 base power and it is very slow. You also have high pressure to keep multiscale intact, since if it isn't having enough health to set up DD and sweep will not happen. However its powerful Extremespeed, especially behind a CB or DD, is a great tool to take down a lot of the offensive teams in the metagame.

Tentacruel is a pretty bad option to spin in this meta because it's entire strategy for Aegislash is to pray it gets the burn with Scald. It no longer has the recovery of rain behind it, so it is no longer "immune" to Jellicent's Will-o-Wisp wearing it down. Tentacruel can't get past Trevnant or Gourgeist at all. Celebi provides a lot of switch-in oppurtunities to the most powerful and used offensive threats in the game: Charizard, Genesect, Mega-Pinsir, Latios, Aegislash, Talonflame, Bisharp, Tyranitar, etc. So while providing all these free switchins it doesn't really cover the offensive threats any better than competing Pokemon do. It isn't gen 5 anymore where 100% accurate burning hydro pumps are flying everywhere (rain scald q.q)

Hide

Liepard because it uses a strategy that is entirely based on luck to win. You are just going for a 50% coinflip. If you think swag play should be used as a legitimate strategy, screw you lol

Moved up:
Galvantula B+ or A- Rank
Mega-Medicham A- Rank
Mega-Manectric A- Rank

Galvantula has distinguished itself as the best dedicated Sticky Web user because it has a good amount of power behind it + good speed to reapply sticky web mid-game if necessary. Sticky Web is really just that good in an offensive of a meta as this one to warrant Galvantula being moved that much higher.

Mega Medicham is a really fearsome attacker that demolishes most defensive teams without Aegislash. While priority Bullet Punch is really nice to find an opportunity to mega-evolve, having a third coverage move really makes you unstoppable by anything slower than you. Nothing can take the combination of HJK, Ice Punch, Fire Punch, and Zen Headbutt outside of Aegislash. The speed issue is really overplayed on Mega-Medicham, base 100 is a completely capable speed tier. I find Bullet Punch and especially Fake Out aren't buying you anything really in the speed department outside of picking up a kill on a weakened Lati@s. Note you can tank a hit from Terrakion since you resist its STAB's.

Mega-Manetric has really surprised me of how stellar of a check it can be to a lot of offensive threats out there. Intimidate + high speed, enough to outrun Adamant DD dragonite and gyarados, means it can check a decent amount of sweepers. Mega Pinsir, Dragonite, Gyarados, Talonflame, Scizor, Manaphy, Shift Gear Gene etc. Manetric's expanded coverage with Flamethrower / Overheat against Grass-types and Steel-types really distinguishes it from other Electric-types, since certain Grass-types (cough ferrothorn) can't feel safe even with the Hidden Power nerf.

That's... a lot of extreme changes. (I was confused at first by the use of "moved up" and "moved down" and checked to see whether you had actually done so on the OP lol).

Anyway I'm okay with a lot of the downgrades, but I'm questioning Celebi and Infernape.
-Celebi can always switch into Rotom-W forever, which is enough to put it in B in my books (it can also sometimes regain momentum with U-turn should Rotom-W Volt Switch).
-You didn't post any reasoning for Infernape, not sure why. Anyway, it's a pretty decent fast mixed attacker with good coverage and high powered STABs to make up for its weak attacking stats. Now that perma rain's gone, you can just stick Ape onto offensive teams and not have to worry about him being useless against 1/3 of all teams. He makes a pretty decent scarfer too with the new emphasis on having U-Turn on anything choiced, and he hits a great speed tier with a scarf, beating Scarf Genesect and Deoxys-S.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

• What is Explosion stopping? I'm not against pumping those HP/Def/SpDef EV's into Attack since it does make a meaningful difference against frail threats and it's not like Smeargle is gonna survive a hit without Focus Sash, but it really doesn't have the power to stop much of anything. With 252 Attack EV's and a Jolly nature, Smeargle fails to OHKO Starmie with Explosion. An Adamant nature doesn't fix that, and is also ill-advised since you likely need that Speed. You can't even go with a Normal Gem or boosting item since you need the Focus Sash to ensure you're not OHKO'd by the first thing that hits you with an Attack. If you want to go out while doing something with Smeargle, go with Memento. That gives you a much more concrete benefit than Explosion.

Explosion is to prevent something from getting a Rapid Spin or Defog off, since they'll fail if there's no target.

 

[Seiterman]

Explosion is to prevent something from getting a Rapid Spin or Defog off, since they'll fail if there's no target.

Oh. Okay.

Is there a reason you'd use it over Memento though?

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Oh. Okay.

Is there a reason you'd use it over Memento though?

No.

But I personally wouldn't sacrifice a team member just to keep hazards up, especially since Smeargle is usually only ever going to get either of Stealth Rock or Sticky Web down. I actually think a Scarfed set with Parting Shot/Destiny Bond/Trick/??? has more utility than something that sleeps something, spits out hazards and dies. Parting Shot for momentum, and giving something a free turn of set up. Destiny Bond to possibly take something down with it, Trick to cripple a wall. And then something else; Lunar Dance maybe?

I said Smeargle was pretty bad in a previous post, and I still think that: at least for laying Hazards. It has Stealth Rock and Spore/Void over Galvantula, but has nowhere near the offense or speed. Having both hazards is also not much of a positive when you're only likely to ever get one of the two down. Over other stealth rock users, it has just about nothing besides Spore. But Smeargle has every move at its disposal, you can get creative with it, and since it's pretty much ever only used for hazards it can catch people off guard.