Swirlix and Gligar have been banned

[blarajan]

The community has spoken and SWIRLIX AND GLIGAR have been chosen as LC's first community chosen suspects. Thank you to everyone that has voted.

The current LC Council is: apt-get prem Goddess Briyella Treecko Heysup macle

After discussing the suspects in this thread, I will choose one person for the permanent council and four people for the rotating council in this round. The seven people in the permanent council and the four members of the rotating council will be the members voting on these suspects. They will be chosen from the people who qualified to vote previously and will be based on this thread primarily, along with IRC and forum presence. Everyone else received one half vote for TC, thank you for voting.

Discuss these questions regarding the suspects:

discuss these questions:

1) Is Swirlix / Gligar broken?
2) Is Swirlix / Gligar making Little Cup not fun?
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

If 1 is satisfied, then 2 and 3 don't matter. If 1 is not satisfied, then the latter qualities in tandem might be worth banning it.

DISCUSS AWAY. Post in this thread with as many (good) replays as you want, explanations of Swirlix / Gligar as to whether it is broken or not, or your defense for it. Use Swirlix / Gligar's stats and qualities as a basis for your arguments--I do not want to see posts that end at "Swirlix and Gligar are really strong" Well made posts outlining your reasoning, well made responses to other people's posts, and just overall discussion in this thread is going to be very much taken into consideration when I decide the council members.

 

[Ashley11]

Here Is my opinion on Swirlix and Gligar.

1) Is Swirlix / Gligar broken?

Swirlix:
Swirlix is where it is now because of its amazing sweeping capabilities. Thanks to Unburden, Belly Drum, Calm Mind, Cotton Guard, and great bulk, Swirlix can pull off a sweep at any time, and your opponent won’t even know what set you are until you have set up on them. I will explain each of these sets in detail, pointing out their broken points and unbroken points, and then give my opinion in the end.



Belly Drum Swirlix with Thief:
This Swirlix focuses on finding the opportunity to set up with belly drum, and then sweep with the attacks Play Rough, Return, and Thief. Thief is used here because it can beat the sturdy smashers very well by taking their item and then using it for themselves. This Swirlix isn’t awful to deal with because it allows Meditite to check it well since it doesn’t have protect. The problem with it though is that if your team has berry juice users, you can wither it down to red health, and then it can just heal back up by taking a berry juice. It also takes away the counters such as Tirtouga and some Dwebbles. There are still some ways around this Swirlix though. Grimer is one way around it, it can take one hit at max defense and then retaliate with a gunk shot for the ko. The problem is that you have to be full health and you are pretty much dead after it has beaten Swirlix. The other notable check to this set is Meditite. Meditite can use Fake Out in combination with Bullet Punch to revenge kill this Swirlix before it can attack you. There is also hazecrow and thunderwave crow, but they will both die after hazing or thunderwaving in the end. Another notable way to beat this is Sticky Web. After Sticky Web Swirlix can be revenge killed by many other threats such as Gligar, Murkrow, Misdreavus, and Elekid. But you’d make sure you have a move that can one hit ko Swirlix



Belly Drum Protect Swirlix:
This Swirlix is the same as the last, but you have protect instead of Thief. Protect’s sole purpose is to keep Meditite from revenge killing you. This creates a different set of checks to Swirlix, being sturdysmashers, while it is now not weak to Meditite. Hazecrow and Thunder Wavecrow are still checks but die afterwards, and so is Grimer, but dies afterwards. This is pretty much the same set as Thief Belly Drum Swirlix but has a different set of checks.



Calm Mind Dazzling Gleam Swirlix:
I find this set to be the easiest set to deal with. Calm Mind Gleam Swirlix completely changes what it first did (Belly Drum) and makes it go into the SpAttacking spectrum. After a few calm minds, you can sweep multiple teams with Dazzling Gleam, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Surf, etc. This is the main problem with this Swirlix. Depending on which moves it has, you don’t know what counters it and what doesn’t counter it. For example, Tentacool would usually counter this Swirlix, but if it has thunderbolt it doesn’t. Foongus would counter this set, but if it has flamethrower it doesn’t. This set’s main problem is that you don’t know how to counter it at all until you see its coverage moves, which usually then it is too late.



Calm Mind Cotton Guard Draining Kiss Swirlix:
This is THE toughest set to beat imo. With this set, all you have to do is set up one cotton guard, then one Calm Mind, and your set. Nothing can beat this set after Cotton Guard +Calm Mind and Draining Kiss except Tentacool and Hazecrow. You weakened the Swirlix with a brave bird? Too bad, he just got all his hp back with draining kiss. You just iron headed it with Pawniard? Too bad, he drain kissed. This thing will take any hit after a cotton guard and come back with draining kiss to get its hp back. This set is the most broken set in my opinion, because there is hardly any way to stop it outside of Tentacool and hazecrow.



My Conclusion about Swirlix:
After looking at all of these sets and counters and checks, I conclude that Swirlix is broken for one reason: All of the different sets it can sweep with. Thanks to all of these different sets running around, there is no definite way to counter every Swirlix except a suicide hazecrow, and if every team is running suicide hazecrow to beat Swirlix, there is a problem. All of the sets makes it impossible to counter without using multiple Swirlix counters on one team, which is definitely centralizing if you have to resort to that. I would have to say that because of this Swirlix is broken, and is unhealthy for the metagame.



Gligar:
Gligar is not broken for a single sweeping set like Swirlix. Gligar is actually what I would call centralizing. Gligar can do so many things that it can find a spot on every team. That doesn’t seem like a bad thing when you think about it, but when you see ALL of the different sets it has to mess with you, you will get a bit terrified. Does it have an item? Is it a Sub SD Gligar? Is it an eviolite Gligar? Does it have knock off? All of these things go through my head every time I see a Gligar, and all of these things really matter each battle. Gligar’s versatility allows it to get a surprise ko on your opponent almost every time. For example, you lead your Mienfoo out and your opponent leads out with Gligar. You have absolutely no idea what he is going to do. You are pretty much screwed turn one. You don’t know if he will earthquake, acrobatics, stealth rock, knock off, substitute, swords dance, or u-turn. That is a lot of choices to decide from, and if you make the wrong move you can be done. If you decide to stay in you may die to an itemless Gligar acrobatics, if you switch out he could use u-turn and get momentum, if you decide to switch into your Misdreavus he can use knock and kill you. Gligar is so versatile it is terrifying. The weirdest part, the only thing broken about it is its virtually gone sub SD sand veil set in the sand. And of course its versatility is quite terrifying. I was going to list all of the sets and talk about each one, but that is WAY to many to talk about. Gligar is broken pretty much from its terrifying flexibility that can screw you up later on, or even early on in a match.


In Conclusion:
In conclusion, Swirlix and Gligar are both broken in their own ways. Swirlix can sweep on a moment's notice, while Gligar can do so many things it is hard to know what exactly it will screw you over with. Both of them have very few, if any, ways to deal with them. They are both unhealthy for the metagame right now, and they both deserve the boot. This satisfies question #1 for both Swirlix and Gligar.​

 

[chimp]

Gligar, in my opinion, is not so much broken as it is over-centralizing (though Sub-Juice is damn powerful). The recent Usage Stats showed that Gligar's usage is at 40%! Gligar is pretty much the best at everything: Physical walling, boosting for a sweep, defogging away hazards, building momentum, baton passing, knock off abusing, etc. Gligar has ways around most of its counters. Knock Off ruins any scarf mons (chinchou, gothita, snover) whose purpose is to outspeed and KO gligar. It also deals heavy damage to Slowpoke. Once Gligar gets a swords dance boost, its gg to any non-scarfed or any pokemon who don't hit 19 speed. The reason its so over-centralizing is because it can run so many sets that its near impossible to prepare for every single one.

I once saw someone use HP Ice on their gligar for the specific task of countering other gligars. Its at this point where you have to question whether or not this pokemon is healthy for the metagame. (Imagine running HP Fighting on your pawniard...)


EDIT:
Swirlix is very interesting. I used to think it was really broke until I read some more posts in this thread, but the reason its so dangerous is, like Gligar, it can overcome its counters just by being super unpredictable. If you come prepared with a Foongus or Magnemite in order to stop a BD, you run the chance of being roasted by a CM Flamethrower. If you attempt to paralyze it, it can just heal itself with aromatherapy. While I do think its manageable, I do think its a tad ridiculous that it can max its attack and double its speed with only a single turn of set up, and if at that point you don't have a Meditite, Magnemite (preferably still with Sturdy since it can use Flamethrower, and even without EVs is still enough to scare it) or a poison type left, its pretty much over.

 

[ryan]

This is a really interesting suspect. When we suspected and unanimously banned both Yanma and Tangela, it seemed as though the metagame was going to be stable, but then as time passed, new huge threats emerged in Yanma and Tangela's places. For most people, this was obviously Swirlix and Gligar.

Now, rather than describing what Gligar does and how to handle it, which is pretty much pointless right now because almost all of us know plenty about this, it's more important to consider the effects that it has on the LC metagame. This is what pushes these Gligar overboard for so many people, whether they fully realize it or not.

Gligar's effects on the metagame are the most immediately apparent. Generally speaking, if your team is kind of Gligar weak, you'll know it within just a couple of ladder games, so long as you're beyond the initial horror-fest that is the lower ladder. This is because it has so many incredible qualities that make it a good fit for almost every single team, including its nearly unbeatable Speed, amazing Attack, great setup options, fantastic dual STAB, and more. Defensively, even without investment, Gligar is incredibly difficult to OHKO, even sometimes with super effective attacks. All of these factors make Gligar difficult to handle from a defensive perspective, but where Gligar starts to hurt the metagame is through having that amazing Speed on top of everything else. This means that if you want to revenge kill a Gligar, you pretty much have to have a faster Choice Scarf user or one of the two (generally low quality) Pokemon that outspeeds it, or else you're risking an infamous LC Speed tie. Priority is a pretty shitty answer because every Ice Shard user is bad barring Snover which doesn't want to switch in, and the only good Aqua Jet user, Adaptability Corphish, can't even OHKO 0/0 BJ Gligar without either a Choice Band or an incredibly lucky roll with Life Orb. With few reliable defensive answers and even fewer reliable offensive answers, Gligar pretty much forces the metagame to warp itself around beating it. I'm all for accepting that the nature of LC itself means that offensive teams are usually going to be better than defensive teams, but the extent that Gligar forces this just makes LC a pain in the ass to play. To answer the specific questions outlined in the OP: yes, yes, and yes, with regard to Gligar.

Conversely, Swirlix's effects on the metagame are almost irrelevant to whether or not it deserves to be banned. This is pretty rarely the case, but in this instance, it's what Swirlix does and how to combat it that makes so many people believe that it's broken in LC.

Swirlix is absolutely an astounding threat that needs to be prepared for in LC, but it just doesn't exert itself over the rest of the metagame in the way that Gligar does. In my eyes, the problem with Swirlix is that people just don't prepare for it enough. Unlike Gligar, it has a decent number of reliable defensive answers and offensive answers that can prevent it from steamrolling through a team. Magnemite is about as good of an answer as any to Swirlix, as it can reliably switch into any of Swirlix's sets and take it out or at least weaken it to the point where it is much easier to pick off with faster priority. Fake Out users, most notably Meditite, Meowth/shitty Aipom, and Mienfoo, can also revenge kill Swirlix. Meditite is the best revenge killer to handle it, of course, because Fake Out + Bullet Punch can clean out a Swirlix, while Life Orb Bullet Punch does a ton to it. The Cotton Guard/Calm Mind set is one that I'm less familiar with, but its weak ass Draining Kiss makes it easier to kill it before it kills you. When I fight Swirlix, I usually do so with the impression that it's always the Belly Drum variant because tanking a hit from a +1 SpA Swirlix is much easier than a +6 Atk one, and if I manage to knock the CM set into BJ range, I will have pretty much always kept a check healthy enough to handle it. Defensive teams are in much more of a conundrum against it, but if they carry two checks to it, they should usually be fine. The only time this isn't the case is when you're facing Belly Drum Flamethrower, which absolutely wrecks most stall teams, but even then, more inventive answers, including Koffing, can still overcome it.

Swirlix is a Pokemon that I think we could benefit from giving a little more time in the metagame. The more time we have with Swirlix, the more time we get to check out its full potential and learn all the best ways of checking and countering it. Unlike Gligar, which hasn't changed at all since the beginning of XY, we started out the generation only ever seeing Calm Mind Swirlix. Then people started to use Belly Drum, and we adjusted and learned the best ways of beating it. Then people started using Calm Mind/Cotton Guard, and people are still learning the best ways to handle that set. In the end, I'm not so convinced that Swirlix is as obviously broken as people have made it out to be when I've seen so little effort being made to adjust around it. I used to feel the same way as many people do about Swirlix, but over time, I managed to adapt around it. I just don't believe that I'm the only one who can manage that. Again, to answer the questions in the OP: maybe, no, maybe. I'd like more time with it in the metagame to get more solid answers to those questions. Perhaps I'll end up being convinced that it's broken, but I think this is a case where we're better off learning from it than we are banishing it right away.

 

[Antar]

[Edit: Essentially ninja'd by Treecko. Completely agree with everything said above up to and inclduing that Swirlix needs more time in the metagame so we can try to discover effective ways to deal with it aside from banning]

Addressing Q1, Gligar is unambiguously broken. There is not a single Pokemon that can be considered a counter for it, due to its phenomenal speed and coverage movepool. Nothing resists flying (Acrobatics), ground (Earthquake) *and* dark (Knock Off). That in and of itself wouldn't be enough to make Gligar broken, but there are extremely few Pokemon who outrun it or even speed tie, and none of them can afford to switch in on a Knock Off (this is why I can't count scarf sets among counter). Gligar's superb physical defense (which often allows it to survive priority super effective moves) and flying/ground typing (which allows it to evade Sticky Web FWIW) also mean that, even if you *do* find yourself in a favorable position against Gligar, it can simply switch out and easily come back in later.

Back when we were discussing quickbanning Sneasel, I predicted this would be the result, especially if we lost Tangela as well (whose fast Sleep Powder and crazy high defense meant could usually check it), and I definitely feel vindicated at this point.

Swirlix I've never had too much of a problem with. Yes, it's a devastating sweeper, but it only ever has one shot and is decently easy to OHKO with a super effective move. I do think it's overcentalizing to need to carry at least two Pokemon per team capable of OHKOing Swirlix, but I just really think the priority here should be Gligar.

Regarding Q2, Gligar is definitely making LC less fun. And I don't think Swirlix is helping.

Regarding Q3, yes. I think that the choice few nigh-unstoppable mons do discourage new players from trying out LC.

 

[atomicllamas]

Swirlix:

Swirlix is without a doubt broken, due to the combination of it's typing, access to good set up moves, and the ability unburden (in conjunction with Berry Juice). As I have covered in this post in the Victim of the Week thread that depending on the set Swirlix is running your response to it should be very different (ie attack belly drum or cotton guard, switch to a steel type if calm mind). Basically, if you are facing a Swirlix, and you take the wrong course of action, you lose, and if it is belly drum, you probably lose regardless. Not only is Swirlix unpredictable, but it also has the base stats to back it up, with really good defensive stats (and typing!)for an offensive mon (62 / 66 / 57), and its average offensive stats are made up for with either belly drum or calm mind, and unburden. Swirlix also fits the description of a broken offensive pokemon because it easily sweeps with one turn of set up (From the Portrait of an (LC) Uber), meaning that when building a team for LC you currently either need to have 6 pokemon that Swirlix is unable to set up (this is very difficult), or carry one of the very few counters to Swirlix there are in LC, these generally consist of sturdy mons (all though belly drum with thief beats Tirtouga, so really only Magnemite), a select few poison types that only have a small niche outside of countering swirlix (Koffing, Grimer, Tentacool, Skrelp, although Koffing is pretty decent), Meditite if you are LO, and Ferroseed if it lacks flamethrower. As you can see many of its "counters" can't really switch in (sturdy juicers), or lose if Swirlix is carrying the right move such as Flamethrower or Psychic.

In summary, Swirlix is, easy to set up, hard to predict, and almost impossible to counter, it is clearly a negative force on the LC meta game.

I'll give my thoughts on Gligar later.

 

[Kavatika]

I'll just make a short post first here, since I don't have a lot of free time atm @-@

Swirlix-
If there were one word to describe Swirlix, it would be broken. It sweeps so easily, and all of it's sets have radically different counters. Meditite beats Calm Mind and non-Protect Belly Drum, but loses to Belly Drum Swirlix with Protect and it's Cotton Guard Set. Pawniard beats calm mind, and loses to all the other sets. Ferroseed beats Swirlix only if it doesn't have Flamethrower, etc. The best possible counter is Magnemite, which I'm pretty sure beats all sets. The big killer here is unburden IMO, since it makes it impossible to revenge kill. 19 speed scarfers can tie, and 20 speed scarfers outspeed, but I highly doubt they can OHKO it, thanks to its impressive bulk. Just ban this thing.

Gligar-
I have mixed feelings about this guy, he does have nice stats, but IMO they aren't enough to be broken. All of his sets share pretty solid checks, and are not THAT hard to beat. His 19 speed tier is nice, but if he loses the speed tie against the other 19 speed mons, he loses (bar tailow I think). But, he is quite overcentralizing. I don't think I've ever made a team without him, and his effect on the metagame is large. I'm pretty sure this thing is one of the few reasons Snover is viable. He's without a doubt good, but I'm not sure if he's ban worthy.

 

[Amp Pharaohs]

I suppose I'll start by commenting on Gligar, as I'm sure many people will have things to say about Swirlix.

The issue that I have with Gligar isn't that he is broken in the sense that Swirlix is, but rather he is the superior option for a teamslot over a large portion of the metagame. He can be the premier defogger, as well as a stealth rock setter. He can also set up and sweep on unprepared teams relatively easily due to his high defences. He is also a sturdy physical wall with two immunities and and the ability to u-turn, making him usable as a pivot.

Gligars stats at first look are largely overwhelming from a pre-evo. He has a 430 BST which is quite high for a LC pokemon; Misdreavus, Murkrow and Ponyta are a few that have rivalling BSTs'. His stats alone give him a large edge in competition for a teamslot.

Gligar has the ability to fill many different roles effectively on many different teams. His bulk allows him to be an effective defogger who can also strike back on switch-ins. Vullaby is competition for a bulky defogger, but is out classed in most cases due to inferior bulk and offenses. Gligar can also fill the role of a Stealth Rock setter,but he not need dedicate himself to that role, as he has access to Defog and Stealth Rock in his movepool. He has the ability to set up and sweep in addition to support options. He has access to swords dance and agility as two common set up moves(Although the former is much more common). His attacking movepool is even vaster than his support one. He has access to powerful moves such as earthquake and acrobatic, which are standard stab moves. Knock off is also in his movepool, removing the items of potential checks and u-turn to gain momentum. He even has access to aqua tail, which can deal with other Gligars and Archens(potentially a "shaky' check to some Gligars) that may switch in on an earthquake. Berry juice gives offensive Gligar a powerful acrobatics as well as healing off damage that may put him in the OHKO range of priority attacks. His blazing 19 speed is a speed tier that few pokemon can meet or beat, a notable pokemon who is faster is Elekid, however, he cannot switch in safely due to earthquake and his lack of any bulk.

Gligar stat layout is that of a physical wall, and he can fulfil that quite well. Without eviolite, his bulk can reach 25/22/14(with it = 25/33/21) on the standard defensive set, while still having an acceptable 15 speed. This bulk allows him to survive weaker ice attacks, and can even survive modest 232spA Chinchous' Ice Beam 93.7% of the time with 236 spD EV's. Being able to avoid these KOs from possible checks is very impressive, especially when they must risk switching in a pokemon does not like taking a hit from Gligar. He can also survive an Ice Punch from Timburr with maximum defense investment 93.7% of the time. These simple calculations alone show the defensive power that Gligar holds. He also has the offenses to deal with these pokemon who risk switching in.

Gligar is too powerful in the current meta, as he has access to excellent dual-stabs and an amazing movepool, including Stealth Rocks, Defog and recovery in the form of Roost. This various traits make a powerful pokemon that can literally be put on any team to improve it. There is little reason to not use Gligar on every team, as he can fill many different roles based in your teams needs.

Regarding question 1, I do not believe that he is broken in the same sense as Swirlix, however it is more powerful then the majority of the meta, and many pokemon run coverage moves for just Gligar.

Regarding question 2, in my opinion yes. It severely limits team building as every team may require one or more checks to him and has limited the usefulness of some pokemon weak to his stabs as they could be set up fodder if they lack the proper team mates and coverage.

Regarding question 3,I believe so, as it outclasses a number of pokemon at their dedicated roles, while being able to fill many others. In addition, it is difficult to determine what set it is running without scouting, and even then, many players mix up their movepools and items, causing this to become more difficult without risking a pokemon.

I may write about Swirlix later, assuming I have anything to say that hasn't been covered.
If I missed anything, or was unclear about a point, please inform me, and I will attempt to clarify.

Edit: I forgot to mention the over centralizing aspect of Gligar, forcing teams to run specified coverage usable for one pokemon(Gligar) and a bench mark for speed to tie with offensive Gligar(19 speed).
Edit2: I feel I should cover some of the common counter/checks in this post, I will likely add that in, assuming it I feel it hasn't been covered in full by others.

 

[Shaymin :D]

My opinions on Swirlix and Gligar.

There is one thing that Swirlix and Gligar have in common that makes both of them so difficult to face: Versatility. Swirlix is the textbook definition of unpredictable in the current meta. You have no idea whether it will Belly Drum or Calm Mind or Cotton Guard. It can set up in the face of one of the best types in the meta: Fighting. There are just so many situations in a game that Swirlix can set-up or take advantage. Here is an example:

You're in a 2v1 situation, you having an active Timburr and a Intact Sturdy Magnemite, while the opponent has a Swirlix. Considering you run a classic set of Knock Off/Drain Punch/Mach Punch/Ice Punch, you really have no way to hit the Swirlix hard. You have no idea what set it's running, so you need to guess what its going to do. Here are all the situations that can happen at this point of the game.

1. Thinking it's a BD set, you switch into Magnemite. If it is indeed a BD Set and it does get the BD, you win. If it's a CM set and it goes for the CM, you lose. If it goes for the CG, it also leads into a winning situation for you.

2. Not wanting the Swirlix to set up, you attack it. This is what most desperate people do and it almost ALWAYS leads into a losing situation, unless you death fodder Tim while it does for the BD and KO it with Mag. If its a CG or CM set, you lose.

Basically, the only way you can win is if it is a BD set, or if it goes for the Cotton Guard as you switch into Magnemite. If it goes for the Calm Mind at all, you lose. It's situations like these where if its one set, you win, and if its another set, you lose that imo makes Swirlix very hard to deal with. Also, like blizz said, just its ability to get effectively 8 boosts in one turn is insane.

Now, onto Gligar. This has as much versatility as Swirlix, if not more. Until its too late, you don't know whether its offensive SD or defensive with Roost, Knock Off, and Defog. It has a HUGE movepool, containing Gems like U-Turn, Defog, Roost, Knock Off, Acrobatics, and good old Earthquake. I often like to compare Gligar to our departed Tangela, they both have about 1 good offensive set, and are really good defensively. However, I do not think Gligar should be banned JUST yet. Why? Because it is actually very consistent. Its offensive set has no real way to boost its speed, unless you run Double Dance, which is just not very good. Unlike a +6 Swirlix, things can take hits from a unboosted Gligar, including Slowpoke, Archen, Defensive Murkrow, Defensive Gligar, and others. Now, if it gets a boost, ofc its dangerous.

However, this then leads to its defensive set. Things like Slowpoke and Archen hate taking Knock Offs. With its amazing speed, it can just U-Turn out of bad or dangerous situations. Defog is good utility, and Earthquake is Earthquake. There's really not much to say about Defensive Gligar, other than the fact it can reach up to 33 Def with Eviolite, Knock Off Eviolites, U-turn out of bad situations, and recover off damage, along with hitting decently hard with Earthquake.

So, what deals with these 2 threats? Honestly, nothing deals with Every Single Freaking Swirlix Set. HazeKrow gets rid of any boosts that Swirlix might have gotten, tho it gets destroyed by Play Rough/Dazzling Gleam. Meditite KOs with Fake Out + Bullet Punch. However, if the Swirlix carries Protect, or Cotton Guard, Tite loses. Honestly, the best overall poke that actually does well against all versions of Swirlix is Cottonee. With the ability to encore any and all of Swirlix's status moves, Cottonee is very solid at dealing with Swirlix. Purrlion functions in the same way, except it actually is weak to Swirlix's STAB n_n. The fact that almost nothing can deal with Swirlix makes me believe that Swirlix should be hit as hard as possible with a banhammer. Gligar, on the other hand, is either too weak on one hand, or can be revenge killed by Carvanha, Corphish, and Scarfed Ice moves instantly. Gligar should not be banned yet.

(also, this is my first attempt to try to argue with a really long post, so if my arguement sucks, feel free to correct me n_n)

 

[Camden]

I've been waiting quite some time for this.

Is Swirlix broken?

In Swirlix's case, I would definitely say it's a possibility. The problem with Swirlix is its versatility. While Swirlix is purely a boosting Pokemon, it has three popular strategies which all operate differently, and as such require separate counters/checks. It is known for it's Calm Mind, Belly Drum, and Cotton Guard sets. While it has been argued that the Cotton Guard set is the most viable of the three, they are all threatening and can easily tear a team apart if not prepared. Before you even start the battle you have to be able to determine the variety of Swirlix based on the rest of the team.

Calm Mind Swirlix is the easiest to deal with, but is also the easiest to use because it requires taking a very small risk, involving setting up a Calm Mind or two while your opponent whittles you down into Given the movepool available, Swirlix can be very hard to switch-in to, with the possibility of seeing Dazzling Gleam, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Surf, or even Psychic and Energy Ball (not recommended, but still very possible). The problem with running this set over the other two is that you lack the sheer power of Belly Drum, or the overall bulk given with the Cotton Guard set. Its niche though is that it offers the greatest coverage of the three sets.

Belly Drum Swirlix is a monster. With one easy use of Belly Drum, Swirlix can have its Attack maximised and its Speed doubled, and be at 100% HP thanks to Berry Juice. STAB Play Rough and Return allow Swirlix to hit anything that isn't a Steel-type for at least neutral damage. Its last move can be Thief but could also be Protect/Substitute. This set is easily the strongest but lacks the bulk and coverage provided by the other two.

Cotton Guard Swirlix is an interesting fiend with an interesting goal. It begins by instantly obtaining +3 Defense and then sets up a Calm Mind. Afterwards, it uses Draining Kiss to constantly give itself more HP while dealing out hard damage, and then using Flamethrower/HP Ground as coverage. While it easily has the most bulk of the three, it lacks in coverage and power.

To be quite honest, I don't think any of Swirlix's sets are broken on their own. They're all very good, but certainly not overpowered. The problem is that you don't know which set it will even use until it uses its first move. You have to be prepared ahead of time to know how to truly stop it. With that in mind, each form of Swirlix can be dealt with similarly. All forms become crippled by paralysis, especially the Belly Drum set which won't even have any bulk to back itself up. Second, since Swirlix relies on boosting its stats to be effective, a Haze or Clear Smog, or even a Roar/Whirlwind can easily put it in its place and render it's massive power ineffective. After that, it's as simple as simply beating it down, since a Swirlix w/o its speed or boosted power isn't that strong. I say we leave Swirlix alone for some time, and see how easily it becomes to play around it.


I'll write up on Gligar later because I need to collect my thoughts.

 

[Expulso]

1) Is Swirlix / Gligar broken?

Swirlix: This thing is absolutely insane. Surprisingly bulky for an offensive 'Mon, this thing can set up with impunity on most offensive Pokemon, and any defensive one lacking Thunder Wave, or Will-O-Wisp* for Belly Drum sets. Another negative thing about Swirlix is how much it restricts teambuilding. Every team must carry one or more of LO Fake Out+BP Meditite (Which is already a good mon, however), a SturdyJuicer like Magnemite with Defog support, Foongus, Koffing, Tentacool, Skrelp, HazeKrow, Wooper and Grimer, and many of those need Defog support to live, while others must die themselves. Basically, it's very hard to prepare for, especially on a defensive team; if you fight a Swirlix, you can only use that Pokemon to beat it, and it can't do anything else.

Now, let's talk about the sets.

Belly Drum: This is, in my opinion, Swirlix's most destructive set. With SR + 1 layer of spikes, nothing but like Focus Sash Abra (Magic Guard) can avoid the OHKO. It is easy to use Swirlix's above-average bulk to set up on many Pokemon; for example, a Chinchou locked on Ice Beam does about 25%. Belly Drum activates Berry Juice, which, in turn, activates Unburden. Afterwords, it can sweep right through the enemy's team.

If running Protect: A BD Swirlix running Protect is able to protect against Meditite's Fake Out, letting it avoid being killed by Bullet Punch.

If running Thief: If running Thief, BD Swirlix can beat SturdyJuice Pokemon without hazards up, and can also cripple a defensive 'mon by taking its Eviolite; however, this removes its Unburden boost. This serves a more supportive role, weakening many 'Mons while crippling those it cannot KO.

If using Flamethrower: In my opinion, this isn't its most threatening set, but does let it beat Ferroseed and some other Steels it cannot OHKO.

Fake Out from Meowth, Aipom, Mienfoo, and Eviolite Meditite don't work very well even against BD sets not running Protect! You need to use LO Meditite to offensively counter those sets with SR up.

196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 68 Def Swirlix: 8-9 (36.3 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

236+ Atk Mienfoo Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 68 Def Swirlix: 5-6 (22.7 - 27.2%) -- 2.2% chance to 4HKO

252 Atk Normal Gem Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 68 Def Swirlix: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 68 Def Swirlix: 7-9 (31.8 - 40.9%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO

196+ Atk (Eviolite) Pure Power Meditite Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 68 Def Swirlix: 6-8 (27.2 - 36.3%) -- 11.7% chance to 3HKO
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 68 Def Swirlix: 12-16 (54.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Eviolite Meditite has an extremely miniscule chance to KO BD Swirlix with Fake Out / Bullet Punch.

196+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 68 Def Swirlix: 8-10 (36.3 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
196+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 68 Def Swirlix: 16-21 (72.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Calm Mind: If using Calm Mind, Swirlix moves to the Special side of things. Although not able to activate the Unburden boost itself, it can usually take a hit, especially a Special one after a boost, and start attacking, using its diverse coverage moves to eliminate potential counters. Countering it with Tentacool? Good thought, but it packed Psychic. Magnemite? Oops, it has Flamethrower, and it's getting past (assuming SR are up). While not the most threatening set, it can eliminate many potential counters, making it very different to handle. This is also an excellent switch-in to Knock Off (not Pawniard!!!), giving it more opportunities to come in.

Cotton Guard / Calm Mind: This is a very potent, though more defensive, Swirlix set. If it sets up Cotton Guard, it's basically impossible for a physical attacker to break through it without a crit; it can then set up Calm Mind and continue to tank, while getting recovery with Draining Kiss.

Gligar: This, in my opinion, is not as broken as Swirlix, but still ridiculously strong. The best thing about it is its diversity; like Swirlix, it can run many different sets. Unlike Swirlix, however, it can serve many different roles on a team, from pivot to sweeper to wall. Its offensive sets are excellent switchins to Knock Off; it is, in my opinion, also the best user of Defog in LC. Gligar also does this same thing. In addition, it causes many Pokemon who wouldn't normally need it to carry Ice coverage, like Misdreavus. Also, it forces too many speed ties, which can decide the outcome of a game. However, Gligar's checks are more useful overall than Swirlix's Let's take a look!

SubSD Sweeper: This set is by far the most common, and foregoes prediction by using Substitute, which lets it securely set up a Swords Dance in the face of many Pokemon. From there, it can use its incredible power to mow through opponents; with the foe's Scarfer gone, it can easily sweep.

ScarfGar: With a Choice Scarf, Gligar abandons its previous approach, hitting hard and getting out instead of sweeping. It can also lure in checks, like Scarf Chinchou, and outspeed and KO them. Its neutrality to Stealth Rock and sparse weaknesses let it switch into many things. Overall, a great set.

Physical Wall: As Amp Pharaohs said, Gligar's stat spread is that of a physical wall, and it performs that function very well. Being able to survive attacks like Timburr's Ice Punch is very impressive, and it can also use Knock Off, Stealth Rock, Defog or U-Turn to support its team.

Questions 2 and 3 are irrelevant, as I believe both are ban-worthy. Thank you!

*Using Will-o-Wisp on Swirlix is dangerous, as it could be a Calm Mind set that you freely let set up.

 

[Ashley11]

Gligar's effects on the metagame are the most immediately apparent. Generally speaking, if your team is kind of Gligar weak, you'll know it within just a couple of ladder games, so long as you're beyond the initial horror-fest that is the lower ladder. This is because it has so many incredible qualities that make it a good fit for almost every single team, including its nearly unbeatable Speed, amazing Attack, great setup options, fantastic dual STAB, and more. Defensively, even without investment, Gligar is incredibly difficult to OHKO, even sometimes with super effective attacks. All of these factors make Gligar difficult to handle from a defensive perspective, but where Gligar starts to hurt the metagame is through having that amazing Speed on top of everything else. This means that if you want to revenge kill a Gligar, you pretty much have to have a faster Choice Scarf user or one of the two (generally low quality) Pokemon that outspeeds it, or else you're risking an infamous LC Speed tie. Priority is a pretty shitty answer because every Ice Shard user is bad barring Snover which doesn't want to switch in, and the only good Aqua Jet user, Adaptability Corphish, can't even OHKO 0/0 BJ Gligar without either a Choice Band or an incredibly lucky roll with Life Orb. With few reliable defensive answers and even fewer reliable offensive answers, Gligar pretty much forces the metagame to warp itself around beating it. I'm all for accepting that the nature of LC itself means that offensive teams are usually going to be better than defensive teams, but the extent that Gligar forces this just makes LC a pain in the ass to play. To answer the specific questions outlined in the OP: yes, yes, and yes, with regard to Gligar.

I completely agree with this.

Conversely, Swirlix's effects on the metagame are almost irrelevant to whether or not it deserves to be banned. This is pretty rarely the case, but in this instance, it's what Swirlix does and how to combat it that makes so many people believe that it's broken in LC.

Swirlix is absolutely an astounding threat that needs to be prepared for in LC, but it just doesn't exert itself over the rest of the metagame in the way that Gligar does. In my eyes, the problem with Swirlix is that people just don't prepare for it enough. Unlike Gligar, it has a decent number of reliable defensive answers and offensive answers that can prevent it from steamrolling through a team. Magnemite is about as good of an answer as any to Swirlix, as it can reliably switch into any of Swirlix's sets and take it out or at least weaken it to the point where it is much easier to pick off with faster priority. Fake Out users, most notably Meditite, Meowth/shitty Aipom, and Mienfoo, can also revenge kill Swirlix. Meditite is the best revenge killer to handle it, of course, because Fake Out + Bullet Punch can clean out a Swirlix, while Life Orb Bullet Punch does a ton to it. The Cotton Guard/Calm Mind set is one that I'm less familiar with, but its weak ass Draining Kiss makes it easier to kill it before it kills you. When I fight Swirlix, I usually do so with the impression that it's always the Belly Drum variant because tanking a hit from a +1 SpA Swirlix is much easier than a +6 Atk one, and if I manage to knock the CM set into BJ range, I will have pretty much always kept a check healthy enough to handle it. Defensive teams are in much more of a conundrum against it, but if they carry two checks to it, they should usually be fine. The only time this isn't the case is when you're facing Belly Drum Flamethrower, which absolutely wrecks most stall teams, but even then, more inventive answers, including Koffing, can still overcome it.

Ok, everything I don't agree with is in red, and I will explain my reasoning for every red line, and compare it with your viewpoint. I am not trying to choke down opinions, I am just sharing my varied opinion.

"In my eyes, the problem with Swirlix is that people just don't prepare for it enough."
I disagree with this because there are so many swirlix sets with different checks and counters, it is pretty much impossible to check and counter every swirlix set in one team unless you are using suicidal hazecrow. For example, Bellydrum swirlix itself has different sets of counters depending on what you are using. Belly Drum with Protect doesn't get checked by all the fake out members you mentioned, but it does get beaten by sturdyjuice. Thief Belly Drum Swirlix does get checked by fake out users, but doesnt lose to berry smashers. The Calm Mind Dazzling Gleam set itself is impossible to counter for every set. It could have Thunderbolt, Surf, or Flamethrower as its last moveslot, and according to which one you don't have yourself a counter. Flamethrower beats ferroseed and other steel types but loses to tentacool and skrelp. Surf takes out fire types like ponyta and larvesta but loses to skrelp and tentacool. Finally, Thunderbolt takes out those counters skrelp and tentacool, but loses to ferroseed. There is also the CM+Cotton Guard set with Draining kiss which beats everything except tentacool, or ferroseed, depending on which attack it has. The point is, there is no way every team is going to have Tentacool, Ferroseed, Tirtouga, Larvesta, and Meditite on the same team to counter every swirlix variant, so this is not the problem since it is virtually impossible to be fully prepared for a swirlix, one of the sets will always be a fullproof sweep.

"it can reliably switch into any of Swirlix's sets and take it out or at least weaken it to the point where it is much easier to pick off with faster priority."
This is referring to magnemite. This is untrue, as there are Calm Mind sets that carry flamethrower to kill it, and if there is 1 calm mind swirlix will survive a magnemite flash cannon, and then get berry juice to heal back up to full. While magnemite is a good counter to most swirlix, it isn't one to ALL swirlix. Not to mention that if there is any entry hazards up or if you have been damage at all, or if knock off took away your berry juice, magnemite is useless against swirlix.

236 SpA Magnemite Flash Cannon vs. +1 0 HP / 100 SpD Swirlix: 18-24 (81.8 - 109%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO


"Fake Out users, most notably Meditite, Meowth/shitty Aipom, and Mienfoo, can also revenge kill Swirlix."
Once again, Some swirlix. Swirlix with protect is now running around to counter the checks, which completely ruins these checks. There is also cotton guard CM swirlix there to take the hit then heal back to full with draining kiss. These only revenge kill 1/2 of the swirlix sets.


"its weak ass Draining Kiss makes it easier to kill it before it kills you."
Whenever you are facing a +3 defense +1 SpDef Swirlix with +1 SpA and +2 Speed with a healing move, it's not weak ass. you get hit by a powerful attack? Doesn't matter, you have draining kiss there most likely 2 hit ko it, then just heal right back up from the damage it dealt.

In the end, these facts that you mention really build up your opinion of why swirlix isn't as broken as people think, but many are invalid. Because of this, I can't agree that swirlix needs more time, it has had enough.

 

[Professor Birch]

Ok so this is my opinion on this matter.

1) Is Swirlix / Gligar broken?
Ok so, there are a few things that go into consideration when you need to decided whether it is broken or not. First, you need to take into account the pokemon and its stats and how they work just in general. Then, it comes down to centralization.

Ability: Sweet Veil (Unburden)
Stats: 62/48/66/59/57/49
Just at a quick glance, Swirlix does not seem like an issue at all. Everything changes though when it is put into practice and in an actual situation. With access to Calm Mind, Cotton Guard, and Belly Drum, it can choose whatever it wants to set up. That is the first issue with Swirlix, it can use any of these boosting moves and work with each extremely effectively. Personally, I ran the Belly Drum+Protect set and I found it to be way to strong. Still, after the boost it does not seem like killing it would be too hard due to the low base speed. After the Berry Juice boost after setting up a Belly Drum or a Cotton Guard, it becomes considerably faster and it a much bigger threat. With the set I ran, you could get the free Belly Drum off and then heal up with Berry Juice. Then, you may just proceed to sweep a team with the only real way of stopping it being priority. Also, it can not even be stopped by Fake Out if you have decided to run Protect on it. I have not actually ran the Cotton Guard+Calm Mind set but I have had issues facing against it. It is much like the Belly Drum set in the aspect that it can get a free Cotton Guard off and be full thanks to Berry Juice. Then, after the boost it can set up a few Calm Minds and become an insanely tanky attacker. +2 in Def/SpAtk/SpDef is not easy to take down especially when it has a good special movepool, one of the moves being Draining Kiss which can prolong its time in the battle.
Late Game Cleanup: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-80869218

Ability: Hyper Cutter/Sand Veil(Immunity)
Stats: 65/75/105/35/65/85
Now, we have the issue of Gligar. Unlike Swirlix, Gligar is more of a straight forward pokemon. It has good stats and is consderably bulky with 65/105/65 defenses not counting the boost from Eviolite if you have chosen to run it. Gligar has a common set which usually only differs on the item, Berry Juice or Eviolite. Berry Juice helps with boosting Acrobatics and since it has a relatively good speed stat, it outpseeds a lot and can spam STAB Acrobatics. Eviolite is a tanky approach but it is still a big deal due to the fact that he does access to Roost. In addition, the buff on Knock Off this gen gives Gligar another tool that it can spam to victory. With access to Swords Dance, it can get a free boost thanks to Substitute and its naturally high bulk and would usually have consumed the Berry Juice after one or two Swords Dances. It can then proceed to sweep thanks to its high speed and now high attack.

2) Is Swirlix / Gligar making Little Cup not fun?
This question now focuses more on the centralization aspect. In both cases, yes, Swirlix and Gligar are centralizing LC way too much. It is normal for pokemon to be strong and stand out but these two are making it difficult to have a more diverse metagame. Both of these pokemon are either in one of these two scenarios:
1. I run it on my team
2. I need to run certain pokemon in hopes of countering them
Both of which are poor for a healthy metagame. Depending on the set, Swirlix may have a few so called "counters" but is still extremely hard to stop, especially when set up. If that counter dies before you can take it out, it is pretty much a guaranteed loss. Gligar does have the crippling 4x Ice weakness but it still is not an easy thing to stop. Like Swirlix, if that counter is gone, Gligar can roam freely and completely destroy your team. Simply put, the centralization that they have created is worth the ban, especially Swirlix.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
What most people look for in a metagame is one where you can enjoy yourself. Play some games and see/learn other peoples strategy. Instead, we have these 2 pokemon being on more than every other team which is completely centralizing LC. Therefore, it will lead to less diversity and then leading to a poor metagame, one in which nobody would like to play.

TL;DR
-Both of these pokemon are unique and are extremely strong/centralizing in their own way.
-They create and unhealthy metagame and destroy diversity
-Thanks to the unpredictability(Swirlix) and great coverage(Gligar), there are no "true" counters
-Swirlix and Gligar should be banned

Will add more if I think of something else to say.

 

[Burnside]

"1) Is Swirlix / Gligar broken?"
2) Is Swirlix / Gligar making Little Cup not fun?

I'm going to say first that I believe that only one of the two suspects should be removed from the LC environment so that the other one can be tested independently of the meta influence of the other. There are many ways to define the attributes of a "broken" pokemon. These can be 'mons that hit too hard or that are too fast for the meta. Another way that we might judge a pokemon as being broken is through the over centralization that takes places in response to that pokemon. This sort of over centralization leads to a lack of creative team bulding in the meta, cookie cutter teams, and an overall environment that lacks the room for us to construct interesting and diverse teams that include an array of common and uncommon, but viable pokes, that have an array of coverage options that they can choose from.

With Gligar in the meta almost ever pokemon that can run ice coverage does. Misdreavus now runs icy wind over HP Fighting, Murkrow does as well, anything that can run ice punch surely does over other elemental punches and coverage moves. Magnamite runs HP Ice, Grimmer, a pokemon that would love to be able to runs Fire Punch to deal with Pawniard is forced to run Ice Punch to check the more dangerous Gligar. Gligar's presence in the meta leads to an unhealthy team building environment that makes LC overall less interesting, less creative, and less fun to play.

Swirlix, while strong, has not had as much of an effect on the meta. Swirlix's presence, in this meta, has not forced less creative team building, but has actually led to an array of more interesting pokemon being viable as checks (Grimmer comes to mind as one that I've used myself and have seen others using).

Others (Ashley11's post is a great) have spoken to Gligar's brokeness as an offensive and defensive threat which together makes him perhaps broken enough to be removed from the meta, but the over-centralization that has taken place in response to Gligar's presence in the meta has led to a LC meta that is overall less engaging, less diverse and creative, and overall less fun to play. Gligar should be banned to LC ubers.

 

[DTC]

sorry if this post is a bit over the place, a lot of new posts came in as i was typing this <>


Treecko, I have a problem with some of the "counters" you listed for Swirlix.

@ Magnemite, if it switches into Calm Mind, which Swirlix very easily sets up:

(Cotton Guard)
240 SpA Magnemite Flash Cannon vs. +1 180 HP / 60 SpD Swirlix: 18-24 (72 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)

(Calm Mind) 240+ SpA Magnemite Flash Cannon vs. +1 20 HP / 60 SpD Swirlix: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
(18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)

Not exactly a very reliable counter. When Swirlix gets knocked down to low HP, it gets its HP right back up with Berry Juice and Magnemite barely did anything at all. Swirlix almost always 2HKO's Magnemite with Fairy Move + Flamethrower (CM has a 1/16 chance of knocking Magnemite below 50% with Dazzling Gleam). Not to mention Calm Mind Swirlix can just outspeed and OHKO Magnemite if SR is on the field.

@ Fake Out,

Fake Out is hardly a reliable answer to Swirlix. Meditite is fine to list, but the other three are really flawed. Meowth and Aipom simply aren't very good in the current metagame, and Mienfoo only does 22-27% to Belly Drum Swirlix, which is the easiest to revenge. And don't forget that all 4 of these just flat out lose to Cotton Guard Swirlix, or Protect (on Belly Drum), although Protect isn't that common.

Cotton Guard Swirlix is really dumb because it's indestructible for most teams aside from crits. You need to use really specific Pokemon like Tentacool, Koffing, Foongus, or TrickScarf Misdreavus to break through it, or get lucky and crit it lol.

In the end, most Swirlix checks are really flawed, either by being easy to wear down, losing to a specific set, or just not being very viable in the first place. Trying to adequately deal with Swirlix in teambuilding is a huge pain because you have to use otherwise bad Pokemon just to beat it. =/


Shaymin, I don't get how 3 specific revenge killers is enough to make Gligar not broken. That is completely ignoring all of Gligar's other ridiculous attributes, e.g the fact that it totally centralizes the tier because it pretty much improves every single team. I also don't get why you're comparing unboosted Gligar with +6 Swirlix... of course things can actually tank a hit from unboosted Gligar unlike +6 Swirlix lol. Anyways, I don't necessarily think Gligar is broken just based off of its SD set, but when it starts being used on almost every single top team because of how much it can offer to a team, that's a huge symptom of being broken.

 

[Professor Birch]

Ok, everything I don't agree with is in red, and I will explain my reasoning for every red line, and compare it with your viewpoint. I am not trying to choke down opinions, I am just sharing my varied opinion.

"In my eyes, the problem with Swirlix is that people just don't prepare for it enough."
I disagree with this because there are so many swirlix sets with different checks and counters, it is pretty much impossible to check and counter every swirlix set in one team unless you are using suicidal hazecrow. For example, Bellydrum swirlix itself has different sets of counters depending on what you are using. Belly Drum with Protect doesn't get checked by all the fake out members you mentioned, but it does get beaten by sturdyjuice. Thief Belly Drum Swirlix does get checked by fake out users, but doesnt lose to berry smashers. The Calm Mind Dazzling Gleam set itself is impossible to counter for every set. It could have Thunderbolt, Surf, or Flamethrower as its last moveslot, and according to which one you don't have yourself a counter. Flamethrower beats ferroseed and other steel types but loses to tentacool and skrelp. Surf takes out fire types like ponyta and larvesta but loses to skrelp and tentacool. Finally, Thunderbolt takes out those counters skrelp and tentacool, but loses to ferroseed. There is also the CM+Cotton Guard set with Draining kiss which beats everything except tentacool, or ferroseed, depending on which attack it has. The point is, there is no way every team is going to have Tentacool, Ferroseed, Tirtouga, Larvesta, and Meditite on the same team to counter every swirlix variant, so this is not the problem since it is virtually impossible to be fully prepared for a swirlix, one of the sets will always be a fullproof sweep.

"it can reliably switch into any of Swirlix's sets and take it out or at least weaken it to the point where it is much easier to pick off with faster priority."
This is referring to magnemite. This is untrue, as there are Calm Mind sets that carry flamethrower to kill it, and if there is 1 calm mind swirlix will survive a magnemite flash cannon, and then get berry juice to heal back up to full. While magnemite is a good counter to most swirlix, it isn't one to ALL swirlix. Not to mention that if there is any entry hazards up or if you have been damage at all, or if knock off took away your berry juice, magnemite is useless against swirlix.

236 SpA Magnemite Flash Cannon vs. +1 0 HP / 100 SpD Swirlix: 18-24 (81.8 - 109%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO


"Fake Out users, most notably Meditite, Meowth/shitty Aipom, and Mienfoo, can also revenge kill Swirlix."
Once again, Some swirlix. Swirlix with protect is now running around to counter the checks, which completely ruins these checks. There is also cotton guard CM swirlix there to take the hit then heal back to full with draining kiss. These only revenge kill 1/2 of the swirlix sets.


"its weak ass Draining Kiss makes it easier to kill it before it kills you."
Whenever you are facing a +3 defense +1 SpDef Swirlix with +1 SpA and +2 Speed with a healing move, it's not weak ass. you get hit by a powerful attack? Doesn't matter, you have draining kiss there most likely 2 hit ko it, then just heal right back up from the damage it dealt.

In the end, these facts that you mention really build up your opinion of why swirlix isn't as broken as people think, but many are invalid. Because of this, I can't agree that swirlix needs more time, it has had enough.

I agree with Ashley on these points. The arguements that you have made are only valid on certain sets and sometimes not even in then. Even with Belly Drum, I have faced Magnemite and that thing has not been as big of an issue as you say it is. Also, think about this, if I set up Rocks then Sturdy is broken. Swirlix sets up a Belly Drum and ohkos it thanks to Sturdy having been broken. One does not simply prepare for Swirlix. A main point that most people are thinking of is the variety of sets it can run. You may be prepared for one but that counter or check you have ready gets destroyed by another one of its sets. In an attempt to completely prepare for Swirlix, you would need at least 4 team slots taken up. This would then lead back to the fact that Swirlix is too over-centralizing of the metagame. You claim that Fake Out users revenge kill it but Protect is rising in popularity on Swirlix. It protects against the Fake Out and then can ohko back thanks to the Unburden and whatever other boosts it has. I just lol'ed at the last one. So you claim that a pokemon with +2 in Def/SpAtk/SpDef with the power to heal more than the damage you can deal is weak-ass? You may want to rethink.

 

[Expulso]

big ass snip
Because of this, I can't agree that swirlix needs more time, it has had enough.

I agree with this post completely. People haven't even realized its full potential; Thunderbolt on a CM/CG set can let it get past Tentacool, while hitting almost all Steels neutrally (damn magnemite). Again, what cannot be emphasized enough is its diversity. Here are all of its options:

Belly Drum
- Protect
- Thief
- Flamethrower
- Aromatherapy

Calm Mind (potential coverage moves listed)
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Flamethrower
- Surf
- Energy Ball
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Cotton Guard / Calm Mind (potential coverage moves listed)
- Flamethrower
- Thunderbolt
- Energy Ball

Overall, this thing can do too much, too well, and needs to get out.

 

[Corporal Levi]

1)
I would certainly consider Swirlix broken, primarily due to its phenomenal versatility and the effectiveness of every single one of its sets. Pokemon that can call themselves strong checks to every common variant of it are few and far between, and are generally limited to Pokemon that lack reliable recovery, such as Koffing and Grimer (since they are forced to run Eviolite or +6 Return OHKOs), meaning they have to be saved for Swirlix and only for Swirlix if they are to perform the role effectively lest they be worn down. Other than these bulky poison-type Pokemon, certain Pokemon are able to beat one variant of Swirlix but find themselves absolutely decimated by another variant. For example, Ferroseed can wall BD variants that lack Flamethrower, but should the Swirlix be a CM or CGCM variant that does carry flamethrower, Ferroseed is done for; on the other hand, Tentacool is able to comfortably take on CM and CGCM variants but struggles to withstand a +6 Return. Revenge-killing is a solid option for CM and BD Swirlix but is of little to no use against CGCM Swirlix. CGCM and BD Swirlix variants in particular are able to sweep entire teams with such ease and pack mostly different checks and counters, forcing almost every competitively designed team to run multiple pokes just to stop Swirlix. Although support is certainly appreciated, one thing to note about all three Swirlix sets is that they don't actually need support to function extremely effectively.
None of Swirlix's base stats are outstanding, but Unburden + Berry Juice allows it to outspeed every unboosted Pokemon in LC, and its numerous boosting and coverage options mean it's not exactly lacking in the offensive department, either. Its bulk is what allows non-CGCM variants to be revenge-killed, but it's still not frail by most standards, being able to survive weaker attacks, activate Berry Juice, and set up. Its huge movepool allows it to actually get through otherwise decent would-be counters such as Foongus (which is 2HKO'd by Flamethrower) and Tentacool (which will not enjoy switching into Thunderbolt repeatedly); even the aforementioned bulky poison-types such as Grimer will often find themselves 2HKO'd by Psychic, leaving Swirlix pretty much entirely uncounterable. I'm not going to go into detail about which Swirlix set is my favourite or list every single one of its checks to its individual sets, but I would like to mention that Swirlix's ability to wreak havoc after setting up with such ease is unparalleled, and as such, I believe Swirlix is far too broken to remain in LC.

I do not consider Gligar nearly as broken as Swirlix, because its double weakness to ice leaves it much easier to check. Sets that run Substitute over Knock Off are walled by Pokemon such as Slowpoke and Porygon, while sets that choose Knock Off are prone to fast and powerful revenge-killers. Gligar's utility is absolutely ridiculous, with access to such potent moves as Knock Off, U-Turn, Taunt, Roost, Stealth Rock, Defog, and Baton Pass, but none of these moves are quite game-changing on their own. A movepool that contains solid boosting options such as Swords Dance and Agility make Gligar a prime candidate for sweeping and Baton Passing, especially in conjunction with nearly unresisted dual STABs, but once again depending on whether it runs Knock Off or Substitute, Gligar is either walled by multiple Pokemon or revenge-killed by multiple Pokemon.
However, a combination of excellent dual STABs, high speed, stellar bulk, good attack, and above all, versatility means Gligar is still a notch above most other Pokemon. A BST rivalling that of Misdreavus's allows it to act as a top tier sweeper, wall-breaker, wall, tank, or even revenge-killer. As an offensive Pokemon, common switch-ins will often be hard-pressed to deal with Knock Off and U-Turn shenanigans, and once its checks and counters have been removed, which there aren't actually a huge number of (although they find themselves to be quite popular due to their ability to deal with Gligar), it is an astoundingly simple task to find an opportunity to set up and sweep. Regarding defensive or utility Gligar, very few Pokemon can come anywhere close to Gligar's amazing support movepool, and basically nothing gives it outright competition thanks to Gligar's other wonderful traits. I do not consider Gligar outright broken, but it is still remarkably centralizing.

2)
As has been mentioned multiple times before me, both Swirlix and Gligar are very centralizing. Although this can prove to be entertaining in its own right to some players, I feel as if the extent to which they do so causes many battles to become somewhat mundane, and overtly dependent on these two Pokemon alone. Clutch sweeps are usually fun to watch, but it has come to the point where Swirlix and Gligar do this so often that these sweeps aren't very amusing anymore. Gligar is in a ridiculous number of games simply because it can do so many things so well. Although certain Pokemon will always find themselves outclassed, the sheer number of Pokemon Gligar causes to be irrelevant is something I find worthy of mention, as Gligar alone is severely limiting the diversity of the metagame by overshadowing such a huge number of other ground types, such as Drilbur, and, and, to a lesser degree, flying types and Baton Pass users. Being weak to Gligar alone is far more detrimental than it should be; for example, rock types see almost no use at all relative to what they would otherwise be able to accomplish only because Gligar decimates them (except Archen, which finds itself viable in the current metagame largely thanks to its ability to take on certain variants of Gligar). Even though it's true that the big reason why many Pokemon are not viable is because they have bad match-ups against common Pokemon, once again, I think it's the quantity of Pokemon that Gligar makes unviable in this manner that demands consideration. I feel as if a metagame without Gligar will be much more varied than it currently is.
As for Swirlix, I consider Swirlix blatantly broken, and I do not enjoy playing against Pokemon that are able to single-handedly shape the metagame so drastically. There's not much to say for this question regarding an outright broken Pokemon such as Swirlix.

3)
From what I understand, a metagame that is less fun will have a smaller playerbase than a metagame that is more fun, meaning that by banning Swirlix and Gligar, both of which are making LC less entertaining than it could be, the playerbase will likely grow; I would imagine that most people value a relatively balanced metagame more than a metagame defined by a piece of cotton candy. I do not think the metagame will become plain and boring upon the removal of Swirlix and Gligar; once Swirlix is gone, there can be much more variety in teambuilding since it will no longer be necessary to pack multiple checks and/or counters to Swirlix, while if Gligar goes, numerous ground (and possibly flying) types will be able to finally have a notable niche in the metagame, opening up a variety of interesting options to help influence the metagame in a positive manner. I personally look forward to a metagame free of these two Pokemon, and I don't think I'm alone on this one.

 

[Shaymin :D]

Shaymin, I don't get how 3 specific revenge killers is enough to make Gligar not broken. That is completely ignoring all of Gligar's other ridiculous attributes, e.g the fact that it totally centralizes the tier because it pretty much improves every single team. I also don't get why you're comparing unboosted Gligar with +6 Swirlix... of course things can actually tank a hit from unboosted Gligar unlike +6 Swirlix lol. Anyways, I don't necessarily think Gligar is broken just based off of its SD set, but when it starts being used on almost every single top team because of how much it can offer to a team, that's a huge symptom of being broken.

Gligar, on the other hand, is either too weak on one hand, or can be revenge killed by Carvanha, Corphish, and Scarfed Ice moves instantly.

I fail to see how a move is one pokemon, but I see what you're saying. Carvanha and Corphish were just random things I got off the top of my head. Literally most Ice moves KO Gligar (looking at you, HP Ice), and scarf lets them pull it out before Gligar attacks. So yes, Gligar can be checked by most Scarfed Ice Moves, expecially Special Ice Moves.

 

[chimp]

This is a really interesting suspect. When we suspected and unanimously banned both Yanma and Tangela, it seemed as though the metagame was going to be stable, but then as time passed, new huge threats emerged in Yanma and Tangela's places. For most people, this was obviously Swirlix and Gligar.

Now, rather than describing what Gligar does and how to handle it, which is pretty much pointless right now because almost all of us know plenty about this, it's more important to consider the effects that it has on the LC metagame. This is what pushes these Gligar overboard for so many people, whether they fully realize it or not.

Gligar's effects on the metagame are the most immediately apparent. Generally speaking, if your team is kind of Gligar weak, you'll know it within just a couple of ladder games, so long as you're beyond the initial horror-fest that is the lower ladder. This is because it has so many incredible qualities that make it a good fit for almost every single team, including its nearly unbeatable Speed, amazing Attack, great setup options, fantastic dual STAB, and more. Defensively, even without investment, Gligar is incredibly difficult to OHKO, even sometimes with super effective attacks. All of these factors make Gligar difficult to handle from a defensive perspective, but where Gligar starts to hurt the metagame is through having that amazing Speed on top of everything else. This means that if you want to revenge kill a Gligar, you pretty much have to have a faster Choice Scarf user or one of the two (generally low quality) Pokemon that outspeeds it, or else you're risking an infamous LC Speed tie. Priority is a pretty shitty answer because every Ice Shard user is bad barring Snover which doesn't want to switch in, and the only good Aqua Jet user, Adaptability Corphish, can't even OHKO 0/0 BJ Gligar without either a Choice Band or an incredibly lucky roll with Life Orb. With few reliable defensive answers and even fewer reliable offensive answers, Gligar pretty much forces the metagame to warp itself around beating it. I'm all for accepting that the nature of LC itself means that offensive teams are usually going to be better than defensive teams, but the extent that Gligar forces this just makes LC a pain in the ass to play. To answer the specific questions outlined in the OP: yes, yes, and yes, with regard to Gligar.

Conversely, Swirlix's effects on the metagame are almost irrelevant to whether or not it deserves to be banned. This is pretty rarely the case, but in this instance, it's what Swirlix does and how to combat it that makes so many people believe that it's broken in LC.

Swirlix is absolutely an astounding threat that needs to be prepared for in LC, but it just doesn't exert itself over the rest of the metagame in the way that Gligar does. In my eyes, the problem with Swirlix is that people just don't prepare for it enough. Unlike Gligar, it has a decent number of reliable defensive answers and offensive answers that can prevent it from steamrolling through a team. Magnemite is about as good of an answer as any to Swirlix, as it can reliably switch into any of Swirlix's sets and take it out or at least weaken it to the point where it is much easier to pick off with faster priority. Fake Out users, most notably Meditite, Meowth/shitty Aipom, and Mienfoo, can also revenge kill Swirlix. Meditite is the best revenge killer to handle it, of course, because Fake Out + Bullet Punch can clean out a Swirlix, while Life Orb Bullet Punch does a ton to it. The Cotton Guard/Calm Mind set is one that I'm less familiar with, but its weak ass Draining Kiss makes it easier to kill it before it kills you. When I fight Swirlix, I usually do so with the impression that it's always the Belly Drum variant because tanking a hit from a +1 SpA Swirlix is much easier than a +6 Atk one, and if I manage to knock the CM set into BJ range, I will have pretty much always kept a check healthy enough to handle it. Defensive teams are in much more of a conundrum against it, but if they carry two checks to it, they should usually be fine. The only time this isn't the case is when you're facing Belly Drum Flamethrower, which absolutely wrecks most stall teams, but even then, more inventive answers, including Koffing, can still overcome it.

Swirlix is a Pokemon that I think we could benefit from giving a little more time in the metagame. The more time we have with Swirlix, the more time we get to check out its full potential and learn all the best ways of checking and countering it. Unlike Gligar, which hasn't changed at all since the beginning of XY, we started out the generation only ever seeing Calm Mind Swirlix. Then people started to use Belly Drum, and we adjusted and learned the best ways of beating it. Then people started using Calm Mind/Cotton Guard, and people are still learning the best ways to handle that set. In the end, I'm not so convinced that Swirlix is as obviously broken as people have made it out to be when I've seen so little effort being made to adjust around it. I used to feel the same way as many people do about Swirlix, but over time, I managed to adapt around it. I just don't believe that I'm the only one who can manage that. Again, to answer the questions in the OP: maybe, no, maybe. I'd like more time with it in the metagame to get more solid answers to those questions. Perhaps I'll end up being convinced that it's broken, but I think this is a case where we're better off learning from it than we are banishing it right away.

I agree somewhat, but there is a limit to how far we can push things. Swirlix has been out for 5 months, if we haven't found a reliable counter in that time, I don't think we will be able to in the foreseeable future. There are so many possible sets that swirlix can run, its impossible to say that only one pokemon can do the job. If its Cotton Guard, then meditite's bullet punch just doesn't cut it. If it got a CM up (which is likely) then magnemite has a tough time as well. At this point I think we have all seen what swirlix is capable of. Just as we have adapted to Swirlix, Swirlix will continue to adapt to its counters with its insane coverage (as Expulso pointed out) and unpredictability.

 

[Expulso]

I fail to see how a move is one pokemon, but I see what you're saying. Carvanha and Corphish were just random things I got off the top of my head. Literally most Ice moves KO Gligar (looking at you, HP Ice), and scarf lets them pull it out before Gligar attacks. So yes, Gligar can be checked by most Scarfed Ice Moves, expecially Special Ice Moves.

It takes 14 Special Attack to OHKO Gligar with HP Ice, meaning not everything can OHKO it without significant investment. Pawniard could pack HP Ice to be an excellent Gligar lure, except for the fact that it needs max investment with a positive nature to OHKO with it.

 

[DTC]

I fail to see how a move is one pokemon, but I see what you're saying. Carvanha and Corphish were just random things I got off the top of my head. Literally most Ice moves KO Gligar (looking at you, HP Ice), and scarf lets them pull it out before Gligar attacks. So yes, Gligar can be checked by most Scarfed Ice Moves, expecially Special Ice Moves.

The problem I have with listing "Choice Scarf Ice moves" is they are a) obvious (Chinchou, Snover, Amaura, Misdreavus (this is a speed tie anyways lol), Meditite comes in directly on your Gligar after they have a free switch... that's very obviously Choiced with an Ice-type move) b) Those are revenge killers, so you either need to take a big risk switching them in, or sacrifice something and THEN bring them in. Yeah every Pokemon can be revenged, but unless you can convince me that Gligar is particularly easy to revenge, it's not really a good argument. I'm not saying Gligar is hard to revenge (unlike Swirlix, who is really hard to revenge), but it certainly is not trivial, and just the fact that Gligar can be revenged does not mean it's broken when it performs a variety of roles, is used a large majority of the time by top teams (used 40% of the time on the ladder with a massive weight of 0.8; 77% usage in SPL), and the fact that it can be revenged isn't particularly relevant for some of those roles. I firmly believe that Gligar is stifling the development of the tier.

 

[tcr]

My post will be broken up into two parts, obviously one shall focus on Swirlix and one shall focus on Gligar.

Swirlix

1) Is Swirlix broken?
- Yes, Swirlix is indeed broken

2) Is Swirlix making the metagame not fun?
- I know this is uneeded if the above is true, but I think it is still a good point that no one else seems to have made. Yes, at least to me. It is so easy to set up pretty much any swirlix set (BD, CG+CM, or even CM) that literally every time I see Swirlix, my entire game plan revolves around "Oh Shit, I need to take that out." This is a huge problem. I tried laddering, to see if I could break 1600 in 50 battles, and after 35 or so battles, literally every team I saw carried Swirlix. I absolutely despise playing against it, simply because it doesnt matter if I am dominating my opponent early and midgame. Who cares if I'm 6-1ing them? When this happens you know something is wrong. Swirlix punishes people for using slowpoke, as it can easily set up on it (CM+sub, CM+aroma, BD+aroma, or the rare CG+Aroma) and simply wreck the opposing team. Or it can come in on Gligar, or Timburr, or Mienfoo, etc. The amount of things it can set up on is ridiculous, its versatility is ridiculous, and the amount of checks or counters that are wrecked by another set is ridiculous. Essentially I assume that the swirlix I face are always BD, and if I happen to guess wrong, you get screwed over. People say "oh but this counters this, or this can paralyze swirlix" but it generally can't, and there's no guarantee that the Swirlix will even stay paralyzed if the opponent is Aromatherapy+w/e. Most priority fails to do significant enough damage to ko a full HP (or even a 60-75%) swirlix, posing the same problems as Yanma faced last generation, to a degree. This requires you to sac at least one pokemon just to take it out.

3) Is Swirlix detering players from playing LC?
- I don't believe there are any. At least not as much as Gligar seems to be. I know it deters me to a degree, where I don't really want to face certain people because I know they run Swirlix, or I don't care to ladder because I don't want to deal with Swirlix, etc etc, but I can't really speak for anyone else.

I AM PRO-BAN

Gligar

1) Is Gligar broken?
- I do not believe Gligar is broken in any way. I do believe it is powerful, but only as any other SD sweeper is. I believe it is good defensively, but again, only as much as a lot of other pokemon. With a failure to OHKO Slowpoke even with Knock Off and a +2 boost, it shows that is strong, but not overly strong. It fails to OHKO Mienfoo, Timburr, and Eviolite Meditite unless Berry Juice is activated, and even then Timburr can run Def EVs over the standard 236 SpD to negate the OHKO. Meanwhile all hit back relatively hard, with Ice Punch for the latter two, and Knock Off for the first, or even the odd HP Ice. It fails to OHKO Swirlix, who isn't known for its bulk, with either an EQ or a boosted Acro (by boosted I mean no item). To the above statement of failing to OHKO various fighting types with 55 Acro, yes, you can repeatedly switch Gligar in on stuff to make it get down to Berry Juice level, but this is extremely risky, as Knock Off is everywhere, meaning Gligar is very easily forced out. In fact Meditite is a safe check despite being outsped because it can hit Gligar with around 50% IIRC with Fake Out + BP. Its defensive set is easily worn down by common pokemon such as Foongus, Slowpoke, or anything that really carries a S/E move. Yeah, it may not OHKO 100% of the time, but it does enough where Gligar can't just switch in, and bam, instant momentum, which to me is the breaking point between a good wall, and something that does its job too well.

2) Is Gligar making the metagame less fun?
- As strongly as I oppose a Gligar ban, I have to say, yes, it can make the metagame less fun. Having pretty much every SPL team running Gligar, or every minitournament on PS running Gligar, or having 40% usage stat last I checked, etc etc can get really stale. It starts to turn into BW LC where the same hand picked mons were on every team. Don't get me wrong, you can make good teams without Gligar. Pawniard can be your Swords Dancer, Slowpoke+Foongus can be a defensive core, Archen can be your Stealth Rocker (or even Pawniard, again), Vullaby can be your Defogger. Gligar does not dominate every single position it plays in like Tangela did, which I believe is what a lot of players use as a pro-ban argument. However it is still a very solid pokemon. Its typing is easy to fit in on almost every single team, leading to that insanely high usage stat, not to mention great stats. I would argue that it is centralizing as well. When I start facing people running weird ass shit just to deal with Gligar, i.e. Al_Alchemist and his stupid HP Ice Lileep ;-; it gets pretty out of hand.

3) Is Gligar detering players from playing LC?
- To this, I would also have to say yes. The sheer amount of players that I have talked to about LC, that aren't regular players, say they don't play because of Berry Juice and because of Gligar. The amount of people that always say in the LC chat, "Isn't Gligar banned? No? Damn, this tier sucks" is astounding. The amount of douchebag comments in SPL about LC is both rude and astonishing as well, i.e. "In order to win at LC, just run Gligar." So yes, I would say that Gligar is a deterent of LC, as well as centralizing, however I do not believe it is broken (for the record, broken =/= centralizing, or vice versa). For that, I say that I am on the fence about Gligar, and would like more discussion before I go to one side.

Just tag me in a post if you guys want me to explain any thoughts in depth more.

 

[Heysup]

Obviously this is going to overlap with other posts a bit (but not completely, not yet) but here are my initial views on the suspects:

Gligar:

I'll start with Gligar because I think it's more broken and there's more to talk about. Let's start with the obvious monster, Swords Dance. Gligar is fast, has high Attack, has great bulk, and can boost its attack to ridiculous amounts with Swords Dance. Gligar will come in vs one of the many Pokemon that it can set up on (ie. Fighting-type or something). Set up a Substitute or Swords Dance, and just plow through our entire team. We've all seen this happen, whether it's been against us or by us. Now, most of us have adapted and stopped trying to counter Gligar and simply sacced something to stop set up and revenge kill it or use our own Gligars or use one of its very specific counters like Porygon or Ice Beam Slowpoke (note: SLOWPOKE DOES NOT COUNTER GLIGAR WITHOUT ICE BEAM, SCALD IS NOT A OHKO).

This is a scary Pokemon, no doubt, but then I recently heard someone say "what's the difference with Misdreavus?" I think this argument is really interesting and is worth addressing because people often fall for it. Switching into Misdreavus is almost as difficult as Gligar. It can, like Gligar, use various moves like Hidden Power Fighting, Icy Wind, Dazzling Gleam, Thunderbolt, Psychic, Substitute, etc to get by certain threats. So why Gligar and not Misdreavus? Notice how all of the sudden, we removed the bulk of arguments about Gligar from the equation? Misdreavus, while dangerous, is missing a lot of aspects of Gligar that make it so much more difficult to deal with. Misdreavus has Will-O-Wisp, lets go through Gligar's list:

Stealth Rock: Stealth Rock is much more difficult to set up this generation, unless of course you are the scariest Pokemon to stay in against. I'm not going to explain how good Stealth rock is because we know.

Acrobatics and Earthquake: Misdreavus has a nice 80 base power Shadow Ball to hurt people with, and it does, but it doesn't have dual STAB 110 and 100 base power moves. That lack of immediate power is what makes Gligar so much more difficult to switch into. If Misdreavus isn't carrying Dazzling Gleam for your Scraggy, you beat it because its move isn't going to hurt you that much. Gligar will always have something to hurt you with.

Rock Polish: If you're relying on Scarf Amaura to revenge Gligar, gg wp no re.

U-turn / Knock Off: I grouped these together because they are both filler moves. They are filler moves that can destroy games. U-turn gives Gligar the ability to bounce off Slowpoke and such while going to a threat like Pawniard without any prediction. It might be called lazy, but very important against good players. Knock Off, on the other hand, dismantles Pokemon that counter Gligar. If you Knock Off Slowpoke, you can 2HKO it with Acrobatics while it doesn't KO you with Scald. You can make Scarfers useless and have basically no safe switch-ins besides Shellos.

Baton Pass: The biggest argument in Gligar's favor, in my opinion, is Baton Pass. Ok, you are sick of Gligar running rampant and you brought Shellos. You then throw your Ice Beam at it, only to be met with a +2 Pawniard or Scraggy. Good bye Shellos, and most importantly, good bye the rest of your team. If you guess wrong with a Baton Pass Gligar, you lose.

Misdreavus has switch-ins, Gligar really doesn't and the reward for predicting wrong is most likely game-deciding. I think it's pretty clearly broken.

Swirlix:

Swirlix is less broken, in my opinion, but it's less complicated. Swirlix is a one-shot wonder. If you fuck up, it's basically useless. However, it's really hard to do that. Swirlix is as dangerous as Gligar because its so easy to end the game at any random point in the match. Say you carry Meditite, congratulations you have prepared for Swirlix. It comes in on your....Gligar (lol ironic?) or Meditite and you're like "hoo hah I'm gonna hit it in the face so that it'll be at 50% and I can revenge kill it (you need to sac something with Meditite, I guess)". Now, if you are one of those players I like to call "good" you will notice at least two things wrong with that. First, you will notice the argument that even a Pokemon that 2HKOes Swirlix actually needs to be sacrificed to stop it. That's basically an automatic 1 for 1 and grounds for a ban already. Second, what happens when you Earthquake, and then it Cotton Guards twice and sets up Calm Minds or Belly Drum. Or you could switch to your Calm Mind / Cotton Guard counter like Calm Mind Spritzee or Foongus which are legitimate counters if they switch in after one Calm Mind. Then what happens if you guess wrong and it Belly Drums? You lose not just the counter, but the game.

You can't say things like "people don't prepare for Swirlix" when the counters for one side lose to the other side and then you lose the game. If the only argument is Prankster Encore / Haze from Pokemon that are hit hard by its unboosted attacks, then I think it's pretty clear that Swirlix is out of hand.

Wow. It's barely tl;dr not bad.

 

[Kappaten]

Lots of posts going down while I post this, so there's probably a lot of restatements from other posts.

1) Is Swirlix / Gligar broken?

Yes / No

Swirlix has versatility as a sweeper that many ubers wish they had. Both its Belly Drum and Cotton Guard sets are very viable, and the checks for each are wildly different besides stuff that handles setup sweepers in general, not just Swirlix, like Haze Murkrow or Cottonee. Swirlix has gone through various "standard" sets since the beginning of XY, from its Calm Mind set (which isn't very good anymore, in my opinion), to its Belly Drum set (which, while the least bulky of its sets, definitely becomes the scariest the fastest), to what seems to be the current best set, Cotton Guard. The fact that Swirlix has so many wildly different sets that have surfaced over time due to more teams being prepared for the standard set make me believe that even with more time in the metagame, Swirlix will adapt, just like it has since its potential was discovered.

Gligar, on the other hand, has very exploitable weaknesses no matter what set it runs. If it runs a defensive set with Eviolite, it lacks the offensive presence to beat bulky Pokemon like Slowpoke or Porygon, while offensive sets have issues with common scarfers who have any ice move. While Gligar can fill a wide variety of roles on a team, and is often the glue holding a good team together, it cannot do more than one thing effectively at a time. This makes Gligar broken to me. However...

2) Is Swirlix / Gligar making Little Cup not fun?

x / Yes

I believe Swirlix is broken, making this question irrelevant, so I will continue with my thoughts on Gligar.

Gligar, while great for teambuilding when deciding how to fill out your team, has several qualities that make the metagame not fun. Least importantly, Gligar's versatility encourages people to use Gligar itself as their check to opposing Gligar in the heat of the moment (especially vs. Swords Dance sets), and makes many games come down to a simple speed tie, and results in many otherwise decent players believe the metagame is full of game-deciding speed ties. This is not a characteristic that a healthy metagame should have. Gligar's high usage as a result of its versatility also results in teams being over-prepared for Gligar, which means people start running ice moves on weird stuff for the sole reason of checking Gligar. Without Gligar there is, in fact, little reason to run ice moves on many Pokemon, such as Meditite, Porygon, and Murkrow.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

x / Yes

Again, I think Swirlix is broken, which is deterring myself from laddering, so I can only assume that there are other players who feel the same.

As for Gligar, I frequently see comments on PS! chat such as "Why isn't Gligar banned?" and the like, which makes me believe that Gligar's presence makes the metagame seem undesirable to new players. Gligar also makes a number of pokemon unviable, which limits players from using otherwise viable options due to a 40% gligar usage, and ergo making teambuilding less creative.