Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Kairyu_Gen1]

The Zygarde discussion has been done already. It is a B rank pokemon, and while that can be fidgeted slightly, C+ and A- simply make no sense. His DD is pretty comparable to gyarados's in terms of effectiveness, his coil sets can stop most physical attackers dead and set up on them, his sub coil sets are very hard to take down once set up, and hit glare + dragon tail set (my personal favorite right now) has amazing utility. With team support, it can stop most physical attackers, late game sweep, or spread paralysis, but its ice and special weakness can hinder its effectiveness. It fits the "fulfill a given niche, but has flaws" part of B rank perfectly.

Also, I wouldn't say it's outclassed by anything. Punchshroom explained it very well, but I'll add that Zygarde has some very useful offensive presence when compared to similar ground tanks, and while Dragonite is usually the more useful, there are teams that Zygarde is just what the doctor ordered. I don't know why people insist on comparing it to Garchomp, because it has a unique playing style that is only sort of like a tank, and if you get good at playing it, Zygarde is a great pokemon

 

[Srn]

Good god, I didn't think I'd have to defend Zygarde after most of us agreed it is an underrated threat. Let me just start with this: sorry Uore , but Assault Vest Zygarde is kind of a dud idea; Zygarde does not have the raw (unboosted) power to do much with its boosted bulk, I mean it can take an Ice Beam so what....oh wait the most common Ice Beamer in the tier is Life Orb Protean Greninja which OHKOes 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Zygarde anyway (252 HP / 0 SpD takes more), and if you're telling me you're running more special bulk than that I can officially consider AV Zygarde as both a lackluster offensive threat and poor defensive response to almost anything due to its lack of recovery (it can't even Glare shit).

Edit: I forgot about Genesect and Deoxys-S, both of which still 2HKO you with Ice Beam. How is Assault Vest Zygarde working for you again?


Let's see Zygarde for what it is: it is a Ground / Dragon. Are there any other Ground / Dragons? Yes, there is Garchomp and Flygon, but who uses Flygon (<-now this is outclassed)? Garchomp has better offensive stats (well suited for Choice items), has Swords Dance and even a Mega Form, so that's several pluses for the land shark. But wait, Zygarde has Dragon Dance and Coil! We never had a Ground-type that could Dragon Dance before, so that opens new doors for sweeping potential! Nor did we have a Dragon-type that knows Coil, aka a Bulk Up that just happens to make its Stone Edge / Dragon Tail perfectly accurate, which again isn't something any other Dragon can replicate. And it even has Glare + good bulk, which pretty much means parashuffler Dragonite just got overshadowed since Glare > Thunder Wave. Not 1, but 3 niches other Dragons (or Pokemon in general) cannot occupy, yet you say it is outclassed? Even if it's not the cream of the crop, Zygarde is still a very viable Dragon.


+2 252+ Atk Zygarde ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 271-319 (106.27 - 125.09%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Some Greninjas even run Hasty.

For the record, yes Dragonite is still the go to Dragon if you want an Extreme Speeding Dragon. However, it's not like it's completely useless on Zygarde, as it is still a useful move to have for priority, or against weakened opponents if Zygarde is unboosted.

I'm gonna reply to this with my "unquothed" quote.

Zygarde still has its advantages over both Dragonite and XZard, mainly its SR resistance and Ground STAB (plus Extreme Speed). Zygarde is a very viable option for teams who want a Dragon Dancer but aren't bothered to get rid of SR. For the record, DD Zygarde is not very weak at all: it may be weaker in comparison to Nite, but alternate STAB in Earthquake means it doesn't have to spam Outrage against any remotely bulky opponent it sees, and unlike XZard (if not running Roost) it has little to fear from priority. That, and the SubCoil set is the absolute tits to play against defensive teams since damn near nothing short of an Ice / Fairy move can break the Sub.

Zygarde definitely has its niches to fill: Dragon Dance Zygarde arguably needs less maintenance than Dragonite to pose a threat to offensive teams, Coil sets can setup on weaker physical attackers, and SubCoil sets can make most defensive teams cry. And of course Glare sets can dick around with paralysis on everything bar Electrics and shuffle in unparalyzed foes with Dragon Tail. This is actually pretty damn versatile for a supposed 'outclassed' Dragon, whose only real flaw compared to its brethren is that it needs to boost to be an offensive threat, but the many ways it can do so is not to be underestimated. I still prefer to see it in B+ for that matter.

+2 252+ Atk Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 221-261 (77.2 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Something is wrong here lol

 

[Rafael J. Feliciano]

Giometry eaglehawk --- Concerning Goodra's and Mega-Aero's ranking

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First giometry, consider that Adamant Mega Aerodactyl is only slightly stronger than Life Orb Aerodactyl when using its primary STAB: Stone Edge. Also consider the "only-average" increase in power when using supereffective moves with the Hone Claws boost against you counters. I chose Chansey and Skarmory for the ease of demonstrating calcs:

252+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 246-289 (34.9 - 41%)
252 Atk Life Orb Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 242-286 (34.3 - 40.6%)

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 120-142 (35.9 - 42.5%)
252 Atk Life Orb Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 105-125 (31.4 - 37.4%)

That slight increase in power on your Aerodactyl is totally not worth using your Mega-slot. The only other thing you gain is a guaranteed speed win vs opposing base 130's, which is a really small advantage because they are nearly absent from the metagame. If you used Jolly, you are now weaker and get good speed. But is that role better served with Deoxys-S? It absolutely is because it is stronger, has better coverage to revenge kill a wider array of Pokemon, doesn't have an SR weakness, and it doesn't take your mega-slot that could be used for something really fearsome like Mega-Lucario. Echoing eaglehawk's sentiments about Mega-Aerodactyl being wasted potential.

Now on Goodra. Not having reliable recovery's has a significant impact on its raw bulk with Assault Vest and its lack of speed really hurts it sometimes vs offensive teams. Let's say Goodra is put into a typical situation: checking Rotom-W with SR in play. If Rotom-W burns you, you are now taking 25% damage every time you come in to check a threat (same with Latias) but with no opportunity to get that health back. I can't deny Goodra can check a lot of special threats better than Latias, but it can not do it throughout a long match, leaving very little room for error in wasting Goodra's health. Latias let's you make a few mistakes here and there because of its recovery, so it is a safer option going into most battles.

Now if Rotom-W Volt Switches, it is an entirely different situation with Goodra and Latias. Rotom-W's Volt Switch holds a lot more momentum against Goodra. Since the majority of offensive threats outspeed Goodra, you will find that Goodra will be forced out giving an opponent a free turn. With Latias' high speed, the opponent has to be a lot more careful of what to send out because not many offensive threats can stomach Life Orb Draco Meteor's or one of its coverage moves. Overall, Latias has an expanded list of threats it can check because it can immediately force out pokemon with high-powered Draco Meteors (ex. Charizard X, Terrakion, Garchomp, physical Landorus, etc). Goodra can not do the same.

Although I don't really mind if it is sent to B-. I'm not going to split hairs between +1 or -1 rankings.

TooMuchSugar Rafael J. Feliciano--- Concerning Infernape's ranking

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Infernape doesn't have the raw power compared to a lot of the other OU wallbreakers / mixed attackers out there. Without that raw power, it struggles to get through pokemon that are common on defensive teams, the types of teams that Infernape is thrown on to your team to take down. These include Mega-Venasaur, Clefable, Slowbro, and Latias. It faces competition in the form of Keldeo in a "mixed" fighting type that can take down Aegislash. In exchange for the ability to get around certain Grass types, Keldeo gets a much better neutral / cleaning STAB in water. I've tried Infernape out seeing as how rain went away, and I found while it has great coverage, it can get robbed of 2HKO's if it doesn't predict correctly. A poke with more raw power behind it (e.g. keldeo) can still find itself getting 2HKO's even when a Pokemon switches in on a resisted hit.

Honestly either B- or C+.

SmashBrosBrawl --- Concerning Dragonite's ranking

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I don't disagree with you about Extreme Speed's awesomeness on Dragonite. I put that as Dragonite's redeeming quality in my post. But since it runs Extremespeed, Dragonite's coverage is much more limited vs defensive threats, moreso than any other Pokemon in A-rank. Outrage is still good too, Fairy-types aren't so prominently used in the tier that it will put Dragonite's sweep to a deadend against the vast majority of teams. The key is that it locks you in and then confuses you. Offensive steel-type != just Scizor, but three of the S-ranked offensive threats in the metagame. Most offensive teams can find a little wiggle room to break up your sweep or to counter sweep themselves.

It might now make much sense, but to me at least, Dragonite is one of the sweepers that gives you the most "breathing room" before you face it. It isn't particularly fast, it doesn't run Life Orb / plates to boost its immediate power, nor does it retain the best momentum in its sweep by locking itself into Outrage. That gives you time to respond and time to regain some ground after the damage has been done. For this reason, I liked using Choice Band a lot more than DD than last gen and this gen. No setup for power = less time for opponent to respond. Also forcing the keep my multiscale or break it then die was a tough trade to put the opponent in too. Anyway, given that that offensive teams now have a wider selection of offensive steel-types and can even use fairy-types, I think it isn't as an immediatly threatening than other Pokemon in a A-Rank. Honestly, it is the poke I am least concerned about being moved.

edit: also i find lando-t's popularity extremely annoying to it

edit: alexwolf alright you got me on the power but I would still say it is a pretty bad use of a mega slot for offensive teams. b-

Ok.... u make a valid argument... mayb i havent played against enough "veterans" who can wisely predict infernape but i have seen first hand how one misread can stall the momentum for my team cuz smashape couldnt net the 2hko.... either that or i always try to keep SR active and that def alleviates some pressure.... sometimes i have sand up too :-) but your point is well taken

 

[TheDuckChris]

The problem with ninetales is that all it can do is setup the sun then sack itself later to keep the sun up. While the fact that it doesnt need to spend a turn to set it up is a nice thing it has over sunny day users, ninetales literally does nothing else. Something like uxie, deoxys-s, klefki or whimsicott could do things like setup stealth rock, use memento/u-turn to give a teammate a free turm, setup dual screens, use priority taunt and encore to disrupt the opponent's team etc. There are so many possibilities for these mons that ninetales just feels out of place. At least politoed has a decent typing and access to perish song/encore and as such is a justifiable choice for rain teams but it is really hard to justify ninetales for sun.

That's true, and it's definitely one of ninetales' down sides. That being said, sun support isn't something we can just throw away as unviable. Maybe decrease to C rank?

As for Suicune it's definitely an underrated threat, although it can be worn down with all the strong physical moves around OU recently. I would say it's a solid B rank, very powerful in the right hands. It has problems with a lot of things though, and outside of late game it doesn't do that much to support the team, as it really needs to be at high health to deal with talonflame properly.

 

[Punchshroom]

+2 252+ Atk Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 221-261 (77.2 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Something is wrong here lol

Huh. I used the old calc and input the respective base stats of Zygarde and Greninja. I now don't actually have any clue on how it resulted in the calc that I got. Regardless, I wouldn't write off Extreme Speed on Zygarde: it's less effective than on Nite for sure, but it's not exactly a bad move to have. I know most would prefer Stone Edge in this slot though.

Zygarde is far too weak to to be a big threat.

Sigh, do I really have to go through with this again? Yes, Zygarde is not an immediate threat like other Dragons, but that doesn't mean you can comfortably let it do its own thing, since it has 2 great boosting moves coupled with a great STAB combo and very good bulk: it is just as capable and dangerous as every other powerful Dragon that is given the chance to setup, and with Zygarde that isn't very hard at all.

 

[Photofluid]

Sigh, do I really have to go through with this again? Yes, Zygarde is not an immediate threat like other Dragons, but that doesn't mean you can comfortably let it do its own thing, since it has 2 great boosting moves coupled with a great STAB combo and very good bulk: it is just as capable and dangerous as every other powerful Dragon that is given the chance to setup, and with Zygarde that isn't very hard at all.

Well, I am assuming I am talking about tanks here.

I question Dragon/Earth being a good typing from a physical tank perspective, and I believe that a special tank is simply not a very nice way to utilize Zygarde, correct me if I am wrong though.

Dragon has long been a typing which provides more special defense than physical. Ice weakness was there for too long so I am not talking about it, but the dragon weakness is really awful when so many of the powerful sweepers utilize it as their major STAB. I don't know how prevalent is dragon type in the current generation, but threats like Charizard X, Dragonite, Garchomp, are still there.

On the offensive side, I think we can all agree that Zygarde is not having an up to standard attack stat, what that tells me, is that neutral damage are not necessarily sufficient for it to become a threat. In this sense, picking up a typing which provides you next to no SE coverage is probably a bad idea.

Overall, I think the dragon typing is more of a liability than a bonus, not commenting about the others.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

This is 100% wrong. You can't make a real sun abusing team without Heat Rock Ninetales or Heat Rock + Sunny Day users. Sun offense can't work with just Mega Charizard Y as your sun source while it can work with just Heat Rock Ninetales as your sun source. You can have one or two Pokemon in your team that indirectly benefit from the sun that Mega Charizard Y brings, but if you want to use Chlorophyll Pokemon and Scarf Fire-types, such as Darmanitan and Victini, you need Ninetales, otherwise you won't manage to bring in those Pokemon fast enough to take advantage of the sun.

That's what I said though. Whimsicott is better alongside Mega Charizard-Y than Ninetales because of typing synergy, e.g. getting up 8 free turns of Sun on a Dragon-move. If you're gonna use Ninetales as a source of Sun alongside Mega Charizard-Y, and you want to use a Scarfed Fire-type on top of that, then you already have a triple SR weakness and three overlapping types on your team. That is NOT a solid base to build a team from, which I've learned from extensive personal experience as well as common sense.

Ofcourse the five turns of sunlight of Mega Charizard-Y isn't going to cut it for a Chlorophyll sweep, but Heat Rock Ninetales is just mediocre and impractical and there's much better options available. As it stands, Mega Charizard-Y is unarguably the better choice over Ninetales. Work from there, and you just have to realize that using Ninetales for team slot two is a poor choice. Idk how else to say it. Whimsicott provides synergy and doesn't burden you with a relatively weak pokemon that's SR-weak, and is in every way inferior to your first team slot in Mega Charizard-Y aside from 3 extra Sun turns. Pick a poor pokemon without synergy like Ninetales for 8 turns of Sun, or a great support mon like Whimsicott with great synergy and 8 turns of Sun. I know what I picked and it's been working out for me much better than the other mon ever did.

So before saying I'm 100% wrong, consider what I said carefully. Your whole argument as to why I'm supposedly "100% wrong" was all in my post, though maybe not as explicit.

 

[Srn]

Well, I am assuming I am talking about tanks here.

I question Dragon/Earth being a good typing from a physical tank perspective, and I believe that a special tank is simply not a very nice way to utilize Zygarde, correct me if I am wrong though.

Dragon has long been a typing which provides more special defense than physical. Ice weakness was there for too long so I am not talking about it, but the dragon weakness is really awful when so many of the powerful sweepers utilize it as their major STAB. I don't know how prevalent is dragon type in the current generation, but threats like Charizard X, Dragonite, Garchomp, are still there.

On the offensive side, I think we can all agree that Zygarde is not having an up to standard attack stat, what that tells me, is that neutral damage are not necessarily sufficient for it to become a threat. In this sense, picking up a typing which provides you next to no SE coverage is probably a bad idea.

Overall, I think the dragon typing is more of a liability than a bonus, not commenting about the others.

Hello?
Dragon might've gained a new weakness and tarnished in offensive practicality (something is immune to it) but it still fantastic typing. You may be weak to other dragons and ice, but resistances to water,grass,fire,and electric are HUGE! Dragon as a whole still has good neutral coverage and can still be potent when playing with or against them. But resistances to water, grass, fire, and electric are simply amazing, like really, that's such superb resistances. Now I realize that some powerful dragons out there are hindered by their secondary typing, but how much does it really hurt your defensive capabilities when you're 4x weak to one type? Look at heatran, he's 4x weak to ground, and he's pretty much a defensive monster. His resistances are whats more important here, I know, but that doesn't make his weakness any easier to take advantage of.

Think of it like this: If milotic became part dragon, do you think it would be an advantage or a disadvantage?
If darmanitan became part dragon, (lets give him access to outrage too why not.) do you think it would be beneficial or harmful?
If tangrowth got grass/dragon typing, would it be better or worse?

In general, pokemon with a single typing would beg to have a secondary dragon typing, it just gives them so much more resistances and a much more potent STAB to work with most of the time! I mean, come on, a grass/dragon tangrowth? A fire/dragon darmanitan? Those imaginary typings, if they ever occurred, would make them much much better. There are few pokemon that would actually mind being part dragon.

 

[Prinz]

I dont know if that was already said by something but why Thundurus-I isnt a S tier? Just look at the SPL's usages and on the ladder to see how it's common in the current metagame and for good reasons. It checks TalonFlame and Pinsir, ones of the biggest threat around and Water-types as well (think bout Manaphy that it's becoming more and more common), it's reliable at revenge killing with priority Thunder Wave and it can use a physical set too to bypass its common counter like M Venusaur. It can also run Knock Off, one of the strongest moves in XY OU (if not the strongest) and has also Defiant to take advantage of Defog users. Definitely S rank material imo, one of the most and threatening mon in XY Ou right now that can give lot of support for many offensive teams.

 

[NotSoClutch]

I really think we should give everything currently in OU a viability ranking. I mean, if Liepard is considered OU viable, how are cloyster and donphan not considered viable? Cloyster is arguably the best ice type and shell smash sweeper and donphan is a pretty solid tanky rapid spin user. Not saying that either pokemon is great or that either is a staple, but I honestly see donphan as a C and Cloyster as a B- this gen. Anyone else agree?

 

[Salt]

There are a few Megas that have yet to be ranked. I'm going to nominate them, seeing as how every Mega evolution should be good enough to be used in OU at least. None aren't viable choices.

Mega Aggron for B+/B

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 225-265 (65.4 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That calc is just there to illustrate Mega Aggron's bulk. That's the strongest Physical attack in the game that Mega Aggron just happens to be weak to. Mega Aggron doesn't even come close to dying. When you have a wall that doesn't die to any unboosted physical attack in the game, you know that Mega Aggron is definitely worth the Mega slot if you have the right teammates for it. Mega Aggron's physical bulk is so great that it can leave it completely uninvested and still take hits from a significant amount of physical attackers.

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 117-139 (34 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Aggron: 114-135 (33.1 - 39.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 168-199 (48.8 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

Most physical attackers would need boosts to break through it, but setting up on Mega Aggron isn't a wise choice as it has base 140 Attack, and a strong STAB Heavy Slam which hurts much of the lighter metagame. It also can phaze with Roar/Dragon Tail. However, having no recovery outside of Rest + Sleep Talk holds it back from being the perfect tank, as Rest-talk is a bit unreliable even though sleep mechanics have changed back to Gen IV mechanics. However, that flaw shouldn't hold back Mega Aggron from a B ranking as it isn't as bad a flaw as it would have been last generation.

Mega Banette for C+

Mega Banette is a bit of an oddball. It certainly isn't the first choice for your Mega slot, and for good reason. Mega Banette didn't really get the stat boosts it needed. It got an amazing ability in Prankster, and it has access to some of the best moves which benefit from this such as Destiny Bond, Will-o-wisp, and Thunder Wave. But instead of getting a much needed increase to its bulk, it got a rather redundant boost to its Attack. Sitting at 165, Mega Banette has one of the highest Attack stats available, but only has a few moves to abuse this with; Shadow Claw, Sucker Punch, and Shadow Sneak are the most significant. The Mega Evolution mechanics also hurt Banette the most, as Prankster isn't activated the turn that it Mega evolves. Banette is very strong and has useful tools such as Prankster Destiny Bond, but being a Mega where stronger ones are available holds it back. I don't think it should go higher than C+.

Mega Houndoom for B-
Mega Houndoom is powerful and fast, with 140 Special Attack and 115 Speed. Coupled with a STAB combination that few Pokemon resist, and boosting moves in Nasty Plot and Sunny Day (because of Solar Power) Mega Houndoom looks like a threatening special sweeper. However, Mega Houndoom competes with other Megas, especially Mega Charizard Y as a Fire-type special attacker. It's also quite frail, which means boosting is hard and sweeping isn't an easy task either with the large amount of priority in this metagame. One must not count Mega Houndoom as a threat though, because it's still extremely powerful when it does get a Nasty Plot boost and sun support.

Mega Ampharos for B-/C+
Mega Ampharos has an incredibly interesting Electric/Dragon typing, giving it great coverage with its STABs and many useful resistances. With great 90/105/110 bulk and a gigantic 165 Special Attack stat, Mega Ampharos looks like a solid Pokemon. It's very slow, sitting at 45 Speed, but this can work to its advantage by taking hits and then using a slow and powerful Volt Switch to bring a teammate in safely. However, one major thing hold Mega Ampharos back: absolutely no reliable recovery. This is a huge setback for a bulky pivot like Ampharos, as it becomes very easy to wear down. Strong neutral hits or supereffective attacks combined with hazards quickly bring Mega Ampharos down, making it an underwhelming choice as a Mega Pokemon.

 

[Srn]

I dont know if that was already said by something but why Thundurus-I isnt a S tier? Just look at the SPL's usages and on the ladder to see how it's common in the current metagame and for good reasons. It checks TalonFlame and Pinsir, ones of the biggest threat around and Water-types as well (think bout Manaphy that it's becoming more and more common), it's reliable at revenge killing with priority Thunder Wave and it can use a physical set too to bypass its common counter like M Venusaur. It can also run Knock Off, one of the strongest moves in XY OU (if not the strongest) and has also Defiant to take advantage of Defog users. Definitely S rank material imo, one of the most and threatening mon in XY Ou right now that can give lot of support for many offensive teams.

What does a physical thundurus look like right now? Something like wild charge/knock off/superpower or u-turn/thunder wave?
First off, how does physical thundurus beat mega venu? Unless you wanna use fly or sky drop, I really don't see how thundurus beats it.
Next, if you want to take advantage of defog users, you have to forego prankster, which is one of his biggest perks.
Finally, if you want to thunder wave something that's sweeping you, you usually end up sacking your thundurus. This means that thundurus is a one-time back up to any non-electric and non-ground sweeper. A scarfer could instead come in multiple times and revenge kill, or the sweeper might even be packing a lum berry, so I wouldn't call it a "reliable" revenge killer.

 

[Waffru]

I dunno, but I think Venomoth is still a very viable Quiver Passer in OU. I'd at least mention it.

 

[Jukain]

What does a physical thundurus look like right now? Something like wild charge/knock off/superpower or u-turn/thunder wave?
First off, how does physical thundurus beat mega venu? Unless you wanna use fly or sky drop, I really don't see how thundurus beats it.
Next, if you want to take advantage of defog users, you have to forego prankster, which is one of his biggest perks.
Finally, if you want to thunder wave something that's sweeping you, you usually end up sacking your thundurus. This means that thundurus is a one-time back up to any non-electric and non-ground sweeper. A scarfer could instead come in multiple times and revenge kill, or the sweeper might even be packing a lum berry, so I wouldn't call it a "reliable" revenge killer.

I think you're seriously underestimating the para. Like, MPinsir predicted right and got the Frustration off. QA for the KO? Sure, but now Pinsir isn't sweeping because of TWave. Likewise, have your own Pinsir? That Latias a bitch, but Thundurus TWaved it, so now you beat it. Having Greninja trouble? Para. Want to prevent Talonflame from RKing Pinsir? Para. Who cares if you sack it when you basically won the game right there. Lum sweepers are uncommon; it's rare that you'll have trouble against them. TWave is an amazing RKing AND supportive tool. And Thundurus is fast, and versatile due to a nice movepool.

 

[alexwolf]

That's what I said though. Whimsicott is better alongside Mega Charizard-Y than Ninetales because of typing synergy, e.g. getting up 8 free turns of Sun on a Dragon-move. If you're gonna use Ninetales as a source of Sun alongside Mega Charizard-Y, and you want to use a Scarfed Fire-type on top of that, then you already have a triple SR weakness and three overlapping types on your team. That is NOT a solid base to build a team from, which I've learned from extensive personal experience as well as common sense.

Ofcourse the five turns of sunlight of Mega Charizard-Y isn't going to cut it for a Chlorophyll sweep, but Heat Rock Ninetales is just mediocre and impractical and there's much better options available. As it stands, Mega Charizard-Y is unarguably the better choice over Ninetales. Work from there, and you just have to realize that using Ninetales for team slot two is a poor choice. Idk how else to say it. Whimsicott provides synergy and doesn't burden you with a relatively weak pokemon that's SR-weak, and is in every way inferior to your first team slot in Mega Charizard-Y aside from 3 extra Sun turns. Pick a poor pokemon without synergy like Ninetales for 8 turns of Sun, or a great support mon like Whimsicott with great synergy and 8 turns of Sun. I know what I picked and it's been working out for me much better than the other mon ever did.

So before saying I'm 100% wrong, consider what I said carefully. Your whole argument as to why I'm supposedly "100% wrong" was all in my post, though maybe not as explicit.

You were completely wrong because your claims weren't true. Specifically:

I don't see any reason to run Ninetales, even on Sun. Mega Charizard-Y is the only Drought pokemon you should ever be using aside from Groudon. You can't argue that Ninetales has anything whatsoever over MegaZard-Y

In addition, just because you provided an alternative to Heat Rock Ninetales (Whimsicott) doesn't make Ninetales unviable. Unlike Heat Rock Sunny Day setters, Ninetales doesn't need to spend a turn setting up the sun, which means that you get both one turn of sun more and way smaller loss of momentum, both of which are obviously big pros. Also, if you are using manual Sunny Day support you will often need two Sunny Day setters, which greatly limits your options on what offensive Pokemon you want to run, as well as options to deal with hazards. On the other hand, with Ninetales, you have the sun thing covered, so you have 5 teamslots to focus on all sorts of stuff. So, Ninetales has 3 turns of sun more over Mega Charizard Y, which is huge (otherwise you don't really have the time to take advantage of the sun), and she also has the pros i already mentioned over manual Sunny Day setters, which again, are very important pros. I never said you should use Mega Charizard Y with Ninetales together, this is just superfluous, increases your weakness to SR, and provides very little in terms of synergy. Use either Sunny Day Ninetales or Mega Char Y + Sunny Day manual setters if you want to use a dedicated Sun team. Oh, not to mention that Mega Charizard X is one of the best Pokemon to use on sun teams, so there is a big opportunity cost by using a sun team with Mega Charizard Y.

tl;dr Don't downplay the importance of automatic 8 turns sun, it's a pretty big deal.

 

[Srn]

I think you're seriously underestimating the para. Like, MPinsir predicted right and got the Frustration off. QA for the KO? Sure, but now Pinsir isn't sweeping because of TWave. Likewise, have your own Pinsir? That Latias a bitch, but Thundurus TWaved it, so now you beat it. Having Greninja trouble? Para. Want to prevent Talonflame from RKing Pinsir? Para. Who cares if you sack it when you basically won the game right there. Lum sweepers are uncommon; it's rare that you'll have trouble against them. TWave is an amazing RKing AND supportive tool. And Thundurus is fast, and versatile due to a nice movepool.

But if they have multiple speedy things that needs paralyzing, like a mega pinsir and a talonflame on the same team, you have to basically choose which one to para, and you'll be vulnerable to the other and left without a revenge killer for anything else. I'm definitely not underestimating the usefulness of TWave, but I'm doubting its description as "reliable." It's usually a one-time revenge killer, and even then, it's not revenge killing, it's just crippling. If the sweeper is bulky and you don't have the right move to kill it, then somebody is gonna be taking a powerful boosted hit.

 

[Exclaimer]

I'll play a little while with Thundurus-I on my offense team and see if this hype is worth the effort.

Also, regarding Ampharos, I have to say, it doesn't seem to play much differently than Rotom does, except it has different typing. A bulky volt switch abuser? Yeah, sounds good. No reliable recovery? Sounds familiar, Pain Split was never that great at this job anyway. Seems like wish support would be amazing for Ampharos, and many wish passers have great synergy with it and can be switched in rather easily. Togekiss has great type synergy with it, and can also provide paralyze support in addition to wish passing. Add a steel type, and you got a really good defensive core.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

You don't use Thundurus as your only method of checking opposing threats, but it still serves as a naturally dangerous offensive Pokemon that can reliably cripple an opponent's sweeper before dying. Maybe "revenge killer" isn't the best phrase, but it's still a great check to pretty much anything not immune to Thunder Wave or holding a Lum Berry.

 

[Srn]

I'll play a little while with Thundurus-I on my offense team and see if this hype is worth the effort.

Also, regarding Ampharos, I have to say, it doesn't seem to play much differently than Rotom does, except it has different typing. A bulky volt switch abuser? Yeah, sounds good. No reliable recovery? Sounds familiar, Pain Split was never that great at this job anyway. Seems like wish support would be amazing for Ampharos, and many wish passers have great synergy with it and can be switched in rather easily. Togekiss has great type synergy with it, and can also provide paralyze support in addition to wish passing. Add a steel type, and you got a really good defensive core.

Here's where the differences start: Typing and ability

Rotom-w superb typing give it only two weaknesses, grass and ground, and ground is negated due to levitate. This means rotom-w has a great amount of resistances to abuse and a good amount of bulk to work with. The only ground type you even fear is excadrill, meanwhile mega ampharos will be switching out of every ground type it sees (unless its dugtrio, then its dead :P) Rotom-w also has good speed to abuse WoW/Twave with, meaning that slower things like scizor will have to switch out. But mega ampharos is so slow, something like scizor can just u-turn out of there.

 

[Exclaimer]

Here's where the differences start: Typing and ability

Rotom-w superb typing give it only two weaknesses, grass and ground, and ground is negated due to levitate. This means rotom-w has a great amount of resistances to abuse and a good amount of bulk to work with. The only ground type you even fear is excadrill, meanwhile mega ampharos will be switching out of every ground type it sees (unless its dugtrio, then its dead :P) Rotom-w also has good speed to abuse WoW/Twave with, meaning that slower things like scizor will have to switch out. But mega ampharos is so slow, something like scizor can just u-turn out of there.

I guess the two have a lot of differences, I wasn't thinking about that in particular. I just wanted to point out that they can both play the same role: bulky pivot. The typing does set them apart, but both are really good.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Use either Sunny Day Ninetales or Mega Char Y + Sunny Day manual setters if you want to use a dedicated Sun team.

Sunny Day Ninetales or Mega Charizard-Y, tough pick. Mega Charizard-Y doesn't give you 8 turns of Sun, I'll give you that. But it does function as an excellent wallbreaker or even a lategame sweeper with Flame Charge, while Ninetales fulfills few to zero roles on a team (aside from getting up Sun). No recovery whatsoever because of Heat Rock coupled with a SR weakness sucks. Its power is mediocre compared to Mega Charizard-Y. Also there is no opportunity cost whatsoever for using Mega Charizard-Y. Mega Charizard-X is good on a Sun team? Guess what, Mega Charizard-Y is even better because it doesn't rely on teammates to get up Sun and hits hard without having to waste Sun turns by setting up. There really isn't any competition between the two. You're just putting a mediocre support pokemon against a very powerful pokemon that lets its teammates take care of support. I can tell you from personal experience that the second scenario is much more effective.

 

[Ropeburn]

I really think we should give everything currently in OU a viability ranking. I mean, if Liepard is considered OU viable, how are cloyster and donphan not considered viable? Cloyster is arguably the best ice type and shell smash sweeper and donphan is a pretty solid tanky rapid spin user. Not saying that either pokemon is great or that either is a staple, but I honestly see donphan as a C and Cloyster as a B- this gen. Anyone else agree?

This is still a WIP viablility thread. We're only a few months into X and Y, and there are bigger fish to fry, so to speak. Cloyster and Donphan will more than likely get a ranking soon.

I can definitely get behind Donphan as a C rank pokemon. Not a big fan of Cloyster, but I'd honestly put it in C as well, with the likes of Salamence. It's certainly viable, but with that terrible speed and sp.def, it has a tough time setting up freely. It also has a nasty case of needing everything at once. Without Lum Berry, you are easily stopped cold (heh) in your tracks by prankster T-wave users. Without Life Orb, you miss several ko's (notably on scizor and lucario) and with King's Rock, 41% flinch rate is great, but that means half the time you're just wasting your item slot. I dunno, Cloyster is just always one of those "noob" pokemon you see.

 

[fightnugget]

cloyster's still a good anti-lead against deoxys-s, but the offensive uber support set from last gen is walled pretty hard by every steel type and it's special defense and sr weakness are just balls. you'd have to forego rapid spin (one of the best reasons to use cloyster) and priority to get any decent coverage on a shell smash set. i like cloyster a lot but yeah it's a c.

 

[Shiruba]

Pardon, but since when was one of Cloyster's best moves Rapid Spin? It's used because of the power and sash/Substitute-breaking utility of its five hit moves w/ Skill Link + Shell Smash. I've heard it be compared to Gen I Slowbro in the sense that it's supposedly Pokemon's version of the CoD "noob tube" and requires little to no skill to use to get decent results, [which is why it was looked down upon by some people, I believe], though Pokemon that weren't as "brain-dead" could potentially do better [and spamming Specs Keldeo's Hydro Pumps in rain is somehow less brain dead apparently, but I digress], Cloyster doesn't really spin - it's not that good at it because of dat Special Defence and being weak to the very rocks it's trying to spin away, as well as being affected by all entry hazards.

 

[Mood4food77]

you use mega charizard Y for sun the same way you use non smooth rock tyranitar for sand

basically, you can't, you only use it to support themselves and that's it, 5 turns is not enough to abuse, you can take advantage of it sometimes but usually, you can't and it's unreliable

charizard y and ninetails do not fill a similar role even though they have drought and are fire types, ninetails is not busting through defensive teams anytime soon unlike charizard Y who makes a lot of defensive pokemon its bitch

ninetails should be used for support and support only, whether it be for revenge killing or for setting up screens or for phazing, whatever, do not try to sweep with it, it doesn't have the power to do so

charizard Y is for blasting holes through teams, you basically ignore the fact it has sun (as a user) and just powerhouse your way through enemy teams, fire/grass coverage is really good, being resisted only by fire and dragon types, thankfully zard has options to get around them with earthquake, focus blast, and dragon pulse. also, fire/flying is a pretty damn good defensive typing unlike pure fire, add in sun and you essentially only have weaknesses to rock and electric (which for the most part, are rare attacking types this gen). he's also got roost to stay healthy

if you want a sun team, use ninetails, if you need a specially based wall breaker with fire stab, use mega charizard Y