Powerhouses like Victini and Darmanitan do not even have an impact near that of Knock Off. They have a lot of viable counters in UU that can take their attacks easily or at least scout Victini's set. Most of them such as Rhyperior, Gastrodon, Slowbro etc. are useful other than taking on them.
Okay, run a team devoted to countering Knock Off. Come back when you get swept, and don't post until then.
However, the knock off buff pushes many of its users over the edge. Pokemon that can take every attack its users use are permanantly crippled and is it becomes much harder to do their job.
No it isn't. A lot of Pokemon don't need their item to function properly. If you're relying on your item to sweep or stall (except for maybe a few choice 2HKOs or OHKOs, or Toxic Orb + Poison Heal on the first turn), you're doing something wrong. The leftovers or life orb power boost are both nice, but they aren't needed as much as you'd think.
Crawdaunt is one of the major offender here. There is not many viable checks for it already except niche mons like Chesnaught and Poliwarth. However, it becomes increasingly difficult for them to counter Crawdaunt when they lose their lefties especially if they do not want to give free turns to opponent. Residual damage will be racked up quite easier and force stall users to take much more risk to keep the defensive core, violating stall's aim to minimize risk.
Crawdaunt? You're using Crawdaunt, the thing that dies to pretty much any neutral hit coming off of a good attack stat, as an argument?
Just look at this: 252 Atk Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crawdaunt: 264-312 (98.5 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO. This is without a Light Ball. That's right, a thing with 55 base attack just OHKO'd your argument. Imagine what other pokemon in the UU tier will do to it. It's the definition of a glass cannon. Of course it's going to use Knock Off well because of its Attack, just like Bisharp did. For Mienshao, it's frail. Sure it has regen, but its Knock Off isn't going to be doing as much as Crawdaunt/Bisharp's, even against a psychic type.
The difference between taking risks in a stall vs offense match is that stall can usually only rack up some damage on offensive mons if winning the prediction whereas the stall will lose part of their defensive core when predicting wrong.
Really? Predict wrong in an offensive team, you lose a Poke (or that Poke loses a lot of its health) because of the enemy hitting you too hard. Predict right, they lose a Poke. There is no difference.
Having recovery does not mean being able to use them anytime and a lot of stall staples such as Doublade and Mega Aggron does not even have recovery.
Liar. They both have Rest, and Mega-Aggron can use Rest-Talk sets very reliably. Also, why are you switching into Doublade against Crawdaunt?
The problem of Knock Off apart from its power is its disrupting effect leads to even would-be counters failing to be a counter in long run. Its great distribution makes even dedicated Knock Off absorbers unable to do their job. Crawdaunt and Mienshao wrecks every single Knock Off absorbes outright.
Keldeo outspeeds Crawdaunt and OHKO's with Secret Sword (Heck even sacred sword post-justified boost). It didn't need its item to do that, now did it?
You have been really underestimating how Knock Off limits stall's teambuilding. Knock Off basically makes everything weak to it or have not enough physical bulk to take one a burden. This is different from other powerhouses when the switch ins to knock off will just be harder to constantly switch in. I have even run shit like Rest Aggron, Granbull etc. on my stall team to take on Knock Off users. Stall's passive nature makes it hard to get rid of Knock Off users quick. Saying Jolteon OHKOes all Knock Off users is the dumbest argument I've ever seen as one revenge killer, especially one that not even viable in stall, doesn't make Knock Off less broken.
Then you're doing it wrong. Unless you want to be the Adrian Marin of UU, you almost always need an offensive presence on stall to deal with the things like Crawdaunt or Mienshao. Get used to it.
Saying that people need to adapt for it is another shitty argument against banning Knock Off. In fact, this is the argument I've seen in EVERY SINGLE SUSPECT THREAD against banning. Seriously, can people even make better arguments?
It's also the same argument towards banning Knock Off. No matter what we have to adapt.
Naming random dark resists as Knock Off counter is dumb. All of these mons will be permenantly crippled and stil takes a huge hit. Only megas or sticky hold mons lol can actually sort of 'counter' Knock Off.
Define crippled. If you mean losing their item, rework your definition. Also define a "huge hit." If you're saying it gets 2HKO'd by Knock Off + STAB move, rework your definition. In the case of Crawdaunt, it has 55 speed. Almost everything that doesn't yell "USE ME ON A TRICK ROOM TEAM" outspeeds it. In the case of Mienshao, it's pretty frail, plus its main STAB is blocked by Protect for 50% recoil.
The combination of power and disruptive effect makes Knock Off the single best offensive move in pokemon. However, what pushes it over its edge is its great distribution. The quantity of quality users of this move is immense and stall teams are forced to use niche pokemons and moves to counter its presence. This isn't much different from Terrakion, whose 90% of counters reside in UU, but its presence requires niches mon for stall to counter it. Knock Off faces the same syndrome and should therefore be banned.
So all of these fighting mons that you see in UU are niche? I don't see your point here. Power? It's 97.25 BAP. Heat Wave has only slightly less power. Then it turns to 65 BAP on the second+ hits. Weak much? The disruptive effect? Easily replicated by Trick or Switcheroo. And if your argument to that last sentence is "It does a lot of damage too," we can just ban moves like U-turn, as they preserve momentum. Why am I using momentum as an argument with disruptivity? Because by disrupting the opponent by knocking off their item, you're preserving momentum for yourself in the late game.
