XY UU Beta Discussion (Read post #32)

[eriados]

You can make the argument that Crawdaunt makes stall near-unviable because of the pressure that it puts on it. Crawdaunt has a near-full counter (watch out for Ice Beam) in Chesnaught. Chesnaught is a very good pokemon on stall in general, has leech seed to make up for the lack of leftovers, and takes very little from all of Crawdaunt's attacks (except for Ice Beam, but no one's running that yet). This isn't even over centralizing, this is just another threat that stall needs to account for. Last generation, stall teams in UU almost had to run Zapdos to counter Togekiss. Togekiss was kept in check back then, Crawdaunt can be kept in check now. A stall team that runs Chesnaught, which I would argue almost every stall team should, can be successful. For Mienshao and Heracross, one can run Granbull or Florges. Florges has Wish, Granbull can be worn down, but wish support from partners helps, and every stall team should have a Wish passer. These two pokemon are also fairly good on stall teams in general and can switch in over and over to Mienshao and Heracross without being threatened much. With every generation the number of threats that stall has to deal with increases. The methods from last generation won't suffice, which is why it is necessary for stall players to adapt.

Roserade is far better than Chesnaught on stall teams because, it has access to Toxic Spikes, it's arguably the best Keldeo check in the tier, it actually has a nice speed tier, can absorb opposing Toxic Spikes, and has a lot more variety than Chesnaught which really only runs about 5 moves (Hammer arm, spikes, leech seed, spiky shield, synthesis) Roserade can cover far more with Spikes, Tspikes, synthesis, leech seed, aromatherapy, leaf storm, giga drain, sludge bomb, hidden power, or sleep powder. I'm not going to sacrifice a tremendous amount of utility in Roserade just to use Chesnaught b/c then I'll get run over by other things (keldeo, suicune, electrics).

also suggesting granbull on stall to beat 'shao is laughable, and florges isn't a heracross counter.

 

[Oddish is the best]

Anyone know when the next round of bans is happening? The tier is actually starting to become balanced but some things like Megacham and Keldeo and even Zapdos (Ok maybe Zapdos is pushing it lol I just think it is annoying as crap) seem a little bit strong.

 

[Swamp Link]

Chesnaught fills a completely different role from Roserade; the only things they have in common are a Grass-typing and access to Spikes. Chesnuaght is physically defensive and has a different set of resistances that allow it to wall different threats like the ever-present Dark-types. And while Roserade is a good Keldeo switch-in, it's not really the best Keldeo counter, and even if it was, the tier isn't strapped for those. See the calc below as to why Roserade is overall not an exceptional switch-in. The speed tier is a nice bonus, but hardly a breaking factor either way. And you say that about moveslots like Roserade can run all of those. Chesnaught does all it needs to do with 4 of Leech Seed, Synthesis, Hammer Arm, Seed Bomb, Spikes, Spiky Shield, and Roar. Roserade, on the other hand has trouble finding the room for a Grass move, a Poison move, coverage, a form of Spikes, Recovery, Sleep Powder, and Aromatherapy if you want to run it. This is a poor comparison anyway, as you wouldn't be taking out Roserade for Chesnaught. It's like comparing fruit to suspension bridges, the two work independently of each other.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Roserade: 147-174 (45.3 - 53.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

And Granbull is decent on stall, Intimidate helps the whole team, it provides cleric support, it walls prominent threats, it's actually fairly bulky with the Intimidate boost. Florges is a pretty damn good Heracross counter too.

252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 159-188 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Unlike Specs Keldeo, Adamant Choice Band Heracross is a very uncommon set, and Florges can still take it pretty well considering how powerful it is. If it wants to run Knock Off, which seems to be the disputed set, it would probably be running an all-out attacker with Jolly and a Life Orb. If Heracross is doing that, there is no way it is breaking through Florges. And physically defensive Florges is its best set, don't bring up any bullshit like "most stall teams want specially defensive Florges."

Basically, Chesnaught and Roserade fill dissimilar roles, Chesnaught has many merits, Roserade's a decent Keldeo counter but not the best, and Florges counters Heracross fairly well.

 

[RowDog]

Not to mention Chesnaught's ability in Bulletproof has some very handy immunities, allowing it to even wall M-Blastoise quite well.

And speaking of M-Blastoise, has anyone used him with a Physically Defensive set as a counter to Crawdaunt? I did with quite some success, as it resists its Water STAB, Knock Off isn't boosted, M-Blast has quite strong Defence and it can easily OHKO Crawdaunt with an Aura Sphere (I think, can't be bothered doing the calc). I used it to some success and is quite viable in UU.

 

[Swamp Link]

Yeah, Blastoise takes it pretty well, but it doesn't do so quite as well as you'd want from something with no recovery.
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Blastoise: 140-166 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It can check it well, and considering how limited Crawdaunt's switch-in opportunities usually are because of poor bulk and speed, it's a good way to deal with it, but it's not perfect.

 

[666lumberjack]

+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 407-479 (113 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Florges is not a Heracross counter. It is an exceptionally effective check, and it does beat essentially any choiced Heracross quite easily, but it loses to the variant of Heracross that most threatens stall teams. I agree that running pure special defense is not ideal for Florges on a stall team, but I would not want to run pure defense either because that essentially guarentees you will lose to Specs Keldeo, which is not a particularly easy Pokemon to check - with a balanced, defense-favouring spread, and Stealth Rock on the field, it is certainly not inconcievably that CB Heracross could 2HKO Florges just using its STABs.

Anyway, that was a bit of a tangent, I guess the TL;DR is don't count on Florges to deal with every Heracross variant, make sure you have something faster that can OHKO it like Mew since it's almost impossible to wall between Close Combat/Knock Off/Facade at +2.

I do agree that Chesnaught and Roserade are very different; as a pure stall 'mon, I actually prefer Chesnaught, because I think it has greatly superior mixed bulk and nicer typing, however, there are some responsibilities I would not want to give it, switching into Scalds chief among them. It's more of an anti-meta Pokemon in my opinion, the prevalence of certain moves and types making its resistances artificially useful. Roserade is a better all-around Pokemon from an objective standpoint, but does not fit into the current UU tier as well as Chesnaught does.

 

[Arkian]

Honestly, I don't think Knock Off is a broken move. Knock Off is usually just a one-time thing; it hits hard just on that one hit, and after a Pokemon's item has been removed, you can keep sending that Pokemon in against predicted Knock Offs to take a weak hit, granted that Pokemon isn't weak to Knock Off. As for the item-losing aspect, many people need to understand that a lot of Pokemon can live without their items. Obviously, you shouldn't send in a Pokemon that desperately needs its item on a potential Knock Offer, instead, you should use your judgement and see which Pokemon doesn't mind having their item taken away, like a Hippowdon. What makes this easier is how easy to predict Knock Off has become, even on Pokemon that we initially thought wouldn't carry it, like Tangrowth or Empoleon. Also, Knock Off isn't that powerful and many Pokemon can take it with ease, especially after they've lost their item. What people shouldn't be doing is going to ridiculous lengths to make sure they can counter Knock Off, like an itemless Crobat, because it's just not necessary and you're being overly paranoid ._.

I also wanted to point out that Crawdaunt is not broken in any way in UU. It is really slow and extremely frail, which makes it really hard to come in and start firing off powerful attacks. Furthermore, Crawdaunt's Aqua Jet, while strong, fails to OHKO many common sweepers, and in turn, they can OHKO back.

What is ridiculously annoying and stupid, however, is Mega Banette. I really hate this thing. It is the stop to any setup sweeper that lacks Taunt (which is every setup sweeper barring the incredibly rare Taunt + CM Keldeo). All you need is a moveset of Protect / Destiny Bond / Shadow Claw or Knock Off / filler (Taunt, WoW, etc.) Sure it takes up your Mega slot and is just left to die afterwards, but would rather you lose one Pokemon or lose the entire battle? Honestly, I feel that it is an okay price to pay for how clutch it can be and how effective it really is. Then again, there are some battles in which it's just dead weight, but those are fairly rare. Mega Banette can also run offensive sets but I haven't used or faced one yet, so I don't know how effective they are.

Anyway, with that little rant out of the way, I'd like to share yet another effective core I have been using:

Roserade and Hippowdon form the defensive backbone and can set up hazards, while Jirachi is a stop to a lot of Ice-types that give the core trouble, such as Abomasnow. Roserade and Jirachi work together to keep common special attackers like Keldeo and Latias, while Hippowdon checks almost every physical attacker in UU reliably. Hippowdon sets up SR and Roserade gets up Spikes, and Hippo's sand doesn't really hinder it much since I use Rest + Natural Cure > Synthesis. Jirachi and Roserade spread status such as paralysis and sleep to aid my sweepers in setting up and getting past otherwise faster threats as well. Jirachi also loves the residual damage provided by sand from Hippo, as it's useful in giving some chip damage while the foe fails to do anything thanks to the paraflinch combo. Overall, I have been loving this core, and it only faces trouble from the likes of Nidoking and Hydreigon, but they give almost every core trouble >.> Some good partners for this core might be Mega Gardevoir and Diggersby, as they appreciate paralysis support and the former can revenge kill both Nidoking and Hydreigon with relative ease.

 

[Swamp Link]

Regarding Mega-Banette, this is the set that I have found most effective:
Banette @ Banettite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Destiny Bond
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Claw

Protect is really helpful because Prankster doesn't activate on the first turn, but it can find opportunities to Mega Evolve most of the time, and Will-O-Wisp is really good. Taunt shuts down walls and works well with Destiny Bond, Destiny Bond stops everything, and Shadow Claw hits pretty hard. The reason the speed is minimized is that Destiny Bond goes first with Prankster, meaning that you will take them with you, and then Destiny Bond doesn't wear off until you move again, which should be after they move twice because of your slow Shadow Claw. If you really have trouble, you can replace Taunt with Protect, but Taunt is useful.

 

[Kingpoleon]

Crawdaunt could be broken. What something needs to counter it:
To counter it, you have to ask 1) is it faster(if yes, go to 2, if not, go to 3), 2) can it take LO Adamant Knock Off+Aqua Jet(if yes, go to 4; if no, go to 5), 3) Can it take a LO Adamant Crabhammer+Knock Off(if yes, go to 4; if no, go to 5) 4) Then it can counter it. 5) Then it can NEVER counter it.
Knock Off has 9 abusers really good with it: Krookodile, Absol, Scrafty, Ambipom, Heracross, Mienshao, Weavile, Crawdaunt, and Machamp. Adaptability Crawdaunt hits off huge STAB attack, Knock Off is 195 BP first use.

 

[jamashawalker]

Wait. Like five pages ago it was SD Diggersby (who conspicuously lacks Knock Off) that was running Stall into the dirt. Is it Diggersby or Crawdaunt?

Diggersby!! SD Normal+Ground is alot better in this UU metagame than SD Dark+Watert. Also Diggersby is a little bulkier, more immunity and a non limited dual STAB attack. Though Crawdaunt hits just a little bit harder. Id take Diggersby to destroy stall vs Crawdaunt anyday. Unless the opponent decides to run rotom or misdrevous. which goes to the extreme for countering diggersby.

 

[CascadeBeta]

I'm not quite sure how anyone can argue in good faith that Knock Off is not inherently an overpowered move.

In Gen V, it was a very solid utility move. You were sacrificing a move slot to have one of, if not the most powerful secondary effect in the game. It was a choice before. Looking at the Gen VI meta, there isn't a choice. Even in the worse scenario, if you're Knocking Off a Pokemon without an item, whether it was previously knocked off or used, you're still getting a 65 power move. Granted, that's not a 120 power Close Combat or whatever, but it still hurts. If they've still got an item? Forget about it, there's no choice.

That's really the problem. If it's a physical Pokemon that gets it, you run it, or else you are going to be worse off. That does not lead to a productive metagame, and I would rather see one move get banned rather than a whole host of Pokemon get banned that are only considered overpowered because of one move.

Not only that, but how many Pokemon does Knock Off hurt now, even more so when you factor in the extra damage? Eviolite users, Choice users, Assault Vest, Life Orb/Sheer Force especially since the Life Orb is usually what's giving them that extra bit of power they need to be competitive. Not to mention it gives a lot of Fighting types a lot more coverage against Psychic and Ghost types than they had before. Pokemon can live without their items, but they can't be competitive without them. Knock Off limits the options too much for such an easy to utilize move.

We're at a point where we have more options available to use than ever before. It would be such a shame to narrow the field down so tightly because one move is left unchecked.

 

[Oddish is the best]

Crawdaunt could be broken. What something needs to counter it:
To counter it, you have to ask 1) is it faster(if yes, go to 2, if not, go to 3), 2) can it take LO Adamant Knock Off+Aqua Jet(if yes, go to 4; if no, go to 5), 3) Can it take a LO Adamant Crabhammer+Knock Off(if yes, go to 4; if no, go to 5) 4) Then it can counter it. 5) Then it can NEVER counter it.
Knock Off has 9 abusers really good with it: Krookodile, Absol, Scrafty, Ambipom, Heracross, Mienshao, Weavile, Crawdaunt, and Machamp. Adaptability Crawdaunt hits off huge STAB attack, Knock Off is 195 BP first use.

Honestly Crawdaunt is extremely predictable and dirt slow and is now way broken for the already stated reasons. It first off one powerful attack and then is either forced out or revenge killed.

No offense, but what are you switching in to Crawdaunt? If you're switching in something that NEEDS it's item like Chansey for instance then you deserve to lose… Just carry a grass type like Virizion for example and you'll be fine. No way is Crawdaunt getting banned let alone suspected or even nominated for a ban.

 

[Oddish is the best]

I'm not quite sure how anyone can argue in good faith that Knock Off is not inherently an overpowered move.

In Gen V, it was a very solid utility move. You were sacrificing a move slot to have one of, if not the most powerful secondary effect in the game. It was a choice before. Looking at the Gen VI meta, there isn't a choice. Even in the worse scenario, if you're Knocking Off a Pokemon without an item, whether it was previously knocked off or used, you're still getting a 65 power move. Granted, that's not a 120 power Close Combat or whatever, but it still hurts. If they've still got an item? Forget about it, there's no choice.

That's really the problem. If it's a physical Pokemon that gets it, you run it, or else you are going to be worse off. That does not lead to a productive metagame, and I would rather see one move get banned rather than a whole host of Pokemon get banned that are only considered overpowered because of one move.

Not only that, but how many Pokemon does Knock Off hurt now, even more so when you factor in the extra damage? Eviolite users, Choice users, Assault Vest, Life Orb/Sheer Force especially since the Life Orb is usually what's giving them that extra bit of power they need to be competitive. Not to mention it gives a lot of Fighting types a lot more coverage against Psychic and Ghost types than they had before. Pokemon can live without their items, but they can't be competitive without them. Knock Off limits the options too much for such an easy to utilize move.

We're at a point where we have more options available to use than ever before. It would be such a shame to narrow the field down so tightly because one move is left unchecked.

No offense, but the field is not really being narrowed down. As my post earlier stated 8 psychics are getting above cutoff usage!!! Latias is considered one of the best pokemon in the tier and other spy's like Mew, Victini, and Celebi are dangerous in there own rights. Knock off is just something you have to watch for and not switch into. At this point we KNOW who the knock off users are so you shouldn't be switching something that's weak to dark into a knock off user simple as that.

 

[CascadeBeta]

No offense, but the field is not really being narrowed down. As my post earlier stated 8 psychics are getting above cutoff usage!!! Latias is considered one of the best pokemon in the tier and other spy's like Mew, Victini, and Celebi are dangerous in there own rights. Knock off is just something you have to watch for and not switch into. At this point we KNOW who the knock off users are so you shouldn't be switching something that's weak to dark into a knock off user simple as that.

So what you're saying is, you don't run Pokemon that:

A. Need items.
or
B. Are weak to Dark.

Because while I could see the argument for the latter, I have no idea what game you're playing if you think the former is at all possible. Also, I like how all the Psychics you listed are high stat Legendaries.

 

[Kingpoleon]

Honestly Crawdaunt is extremely predictable and dirt slow and is now way broken for the already stated reasons. It first off one powerful attack and then is either forced out or revenge killed.

No offense, but what are you switching in to Crawdaunt? If you're switching in something that NEEDS it's item like Chansey for instance then you deserve to lose… Just carry a grass type like Virizion for example and you'll be fine. No way is Crawdaunt getting banned let alone suspected or even nominated for a ban.

252+ Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 231-273 (71.2 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 78-92 (24 - 28.3%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
No. 75%+25%=KO'd. Not going to be able to counter it. Anyway, has anyone tried the core of DDHaxorus+ScarfDreigon? They smash teams.
Really great, in my opinion. Has anybody tried it?

 

[Swamp Link]

Kingpoleon, most of the time Virizion won't be switching into Superpower. If you predict it and use it, props to you, but Crawdaunt spams Knock Off and maybe Crabhammer. And even if it did, Aqua Jet would be at -1. Virizion is not a full counter, but it is a good check that can switch into Crawdaunt 2-3 times, because it won't be using Superpower most of the time.

 

[Schpoonman]

252+ Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 231-273 (71.2 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 78-92 (24 - 28.3%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
No. 75%+25%=KO'd. Not going to be able to counter it. Anyway, has anyone tried the core of DDHaxorus+ScarfDreigon? They smash teams.
Really great, in my opinion. Has anybody tried it?

Way to not include the Attack drop after Superpower. You hurt Virizion, sure, but you lose Crawdaunt and Virizion gets a shitton of its HP back if it's running Giga Drain. Also: Your math sucks, even IF Crawdaunt could follow up a +0 Superpower with a +0 Aqua Jet (hint, it can't, not without White Herb in which case Crawdaunt sure as shit isn't getting that 2HKO because Life Orb), that's still not a guaranteed OHKO. 71% + 24% = 95%.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

Are people seriously thinking of banning knock off? Then what about stealth rock and sticky web, those moves are more metagame centralizing than knock off. Lmfao, if you think a pokemon is useless without it's item, you shouldn't be using that pokemon.

 

[Oddish is the best]

Honestly, Crawdaunt is THE most overhyped pokemon in UU.| 16 | Crawdaunt | 9.09813% | 51206 | 8.463% | 41606 | 8.422% |

Let me being with the pro's and con's of Crawdaunt: Base stats 63/120/85/90/55/55
Pro's
1. Great attack with adaptability
2. Strongest knock off in the tier

Con's
1. Bad defensive typing with common weakness's to grass, electric, fighting, and bug (U-turn)
2. Horrible defensive stats at 63/85/55
3. Horrible speed at 55 especially since it has horrible defenses

Summary: Crawdaunt make look appealing at first because of its strong knock off, but in practice, it often doesn't meet expectations. Horrible defensive stats make it impossible to switch into the battle field unless you're switching into something like chansey. This means that Crawdaunt has to come in AFTER something dies. Additionally, Crawdaunt's dirt poor speed makes it hard to stay in once it switches in, let alone not get 1HKO'd. This limits Crawdaunt to switching into stall 'mons, and staying in at max 2 turns before being forced out. When Crawdaunt does sub in on something that can't 1HKO it, (Very few things in the metagame TBH) it goes straight for the knock off which does hit hard, but anything that can survive it and then an aqua jet (Think grass people grass!!!) can easily KO it and thus the usual situation with Crawdaunt is that you lose an item, but Crawdaunt dies.

No way in heck Crawdaunt is broken.


P.S The only thing Crawdaunt gained from last gen was a knock off buff and aqua jet (Admittedly priority is quite useful) . If anyone recalls, in B/W, Crawdaunt was in the depths of RU not really being that great. This gen, after just gaining a knock off buff, Crawdaunt is now supposedly top tier worthy in a more dangerous than last gen UU. The math simply doesn't add up!


Thanks for reading.

P.P.S Can the knock off discussion seriously stop? I think its already been discussed pretty throughly.

 

[zeriloa]

Honestly Crawdaunt is THE most overhyped pokemon in UU.

Let me being with the pro's and con's of Crawdaunt: Base stats 63/120/85/90/55/55
Pro's
1. Great attack with adaptability
2. Strongest knock off in the tier

Con's
1. Bad defensive typing with common weakness's to grass, electric, fighting, and bug (U-turn)
2. Horrible defensive stats at 63/85/55
3. Horrible speed at 55 especially since it has horrible defenses

Summary: Crawdaunt make look appealing at first because of its strong knock off, but in practice, it often doesn't meet expectations. Horrible defensive stats make it impossible to switch into the battle field unless you're switching into something like chantey. This means that Crawdaunt has to come in AFTER something dies. Additionally, Crawdaunt's dirt poor speed makes it hard to stay in once it switches in, let alone not get 1HKO'd. This limits Crawdaunt to switching into stall 'mons, and staying in at max 2 turns before being forced out. When Crawdaunt does sub in on something that can't 1HKO it, (Very few things in the metagame TBH) it goes straight for the knock off which does hurt hard, but anything that can survive it and then an aqua jet (Think grass people grass!!!) can easily KO it and thus the usual situation with Crawdaunt is that you lose an item, but Crawdaunt dies.

No way in heck Crawdaunt is broken.


P.S The only thing Crawdaunt gained from last gen was a knock off buff. If anyone recalls, in B/W, Crawdaunt was in the depths of RU not really being that great. This gen, after just gaining a knock off buff, Crawdaunt is now supposedly top tier worthy in a more dangerous than last gen UU. The math simply doesn't add up!

Thanks for reading.

not commenting on Crawdaunt's merit, but saying he only gained the knock off buff is just wrong. He gained Aqua Jet, an improved Crabhammer, and benefited from the dark-type buff as well

 

[Oddish is the best]

not commenting on Crawdaunt's merit, but saying he only gained the knock off buff is just wrong. He gained Aqua Jet, an improved Crabhammer, and benefited from the dark-type buff as well

Oops! forgot about Aqua jet! Will add that in.

 

[CascadeBeta]

Are people seriously thinking of banning knock off? Then what about stealth rock and sticky web, those moves are more metagame centralizing than knock off. Lmfao, if you think a pokemon is useless without it's item, you shouldn't be using that pokemon.

What Pokemon are still usable without their item and 20-50% less health due to knock off?

 

[Oddish is the best]

So what you're saying is, you don't run Pokemon that:

A. Need items.
or
B. Are weak to Dark.

Because while I could see the argument for the latter, I have no idea what game you're playing if you think the former is at all possible. Also, I like how all the Psychics you listed are high stat Legendaries.

I actually happen to run CM Reuniclus and it works pretty well even with Knock off. Obviously, knock off is something that hurts it, but at this point we know who the knock off users are and I choose not to switch Reuniclus into a potential knock off user. While its CM set is obviously weaker since KO became popular, it definitely doesn't make it not viable.

 

[CascadeBeta]

I actually happen to run CM Reuniclus and it works pretty well even with Knock off. Obviously, knock off is something that hurts it, but at this point we know who the knock off users are and I choose not to switch Reuniclus into a potential knock off user. While its CM set is obviously weaker since KO became popular, it definitely doesn't make it not viable.

It's good against knock off, so you never put it in against knock off. Got it.

I'm also glad to see you mention a non-legendary mon for once.

 

[Oddish is the best]

It's good against knock off, so you never put it in against knock off. Got it.

I'm also glad to see you mention a non-legendary mon for once.

I'm saying that even with Knock off as a popular move it doesn't hinder Reuniclus's viability. That's all, just something to watch for.

And about the legendaries… Most Psychics with a usable BST are legendaries so… and what spy's form last gen uu are you referring too that aren't viable again this gen?