Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Rafael J. Feliciano]

I'd like to make a case to increase a really underrated Pokemon's rank: Ditto. I've been using this guy recently and I strongly believe that the current XY metagame has shaped up in a way such that Ditto becomes significantly more of a threat than in past generations. Firstly, its scouting utility is absolutely banging. It helps you instantly determine unpredictable Pokemon's sets, most notably Genesect, and allows you to act accordingly to that. I mean, the metagame is riddled with Pokemon that can run a plethora of different sets and even run surprise moves to take out lures; examples of these include Thundurus, Azumarill, Charizard, Mega Venusaur, and the previously mentioned Genesect. The scouting utility alone is enough to bring Ditto out of the rank it currently resides in, as it significantly aids in checking and countering your opposition once you now know exactly what you're up against. The other thing about it is it can seriously screw with your opponent when it copies their Pokemon. It's just another play you can make when trying to take on something, such as Genesect's U-turn (the best part about this is you can potentially get +2 Attack or +1 Special Attack/Attack), Mega Venusaur's Giga Drain, Landorus-T's Earthquake, and a myriad of other things. Finally, just the fact that Choice Scarf Ditto checks literally every single boosting sweeper or just basic all-out attackers is unreal. Not only will the opponent actually hesitate to boost in fear of Ditto, it easily prevents you from getting swept by something like Dragon Dance Gyarados and Charizard-X, Tail Glow Manaphy, Swords Dance Diggersby, and Nasty Plot Thundurus if they do choose to boost. This fact can significantly damage the opponent, or even sweep them clean altogether, when you're rolling with an exact copy of their sweeper with 1.5x the Speed. I love that about it. So, with all of that considered, I'd like to take Ditto out of C territory and nominate it for B- rank.

I second this nomination... Ditto's information gathering is such an enormous tool and on top of it, his ability to precisely gather the said information on top of being a deterrent to teams with boosting sweepers makes him all the more mentionable. Here are the definitions for B and C Class Pokémon:

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks.

Thus, based on the definitions provided, Ditto can always activate his Imposter ability and continue to wreck havoc on the opposing team; making him ineligible for C Rank and somewhere in B Rank.

 

[Homeslice]

Can someone explain to me why Kyurem is ranked? Just curious.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

Can someone explain to me why Kyurem is ranked? Just curious.

subroost sets (pressure) and purely special attacking sets (higher special attack)

 

[SergantGold]

Can someone explain to me why Kyurem is ranked? Just curious.

If it is ranked that means its viable. Simple as that.

And it preforms well with its SubRoost set

 

[Riolupe Fiasco]

I second this nomination... Ditto's information gathering is such an enormous tool and on top of it, his ability to precisely gather the said information on top of being a deterrent to teams with boosting sweepers makes him all the more mentionable. Here are the definitions for B and C Class Pokémon:

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks.

Thus, based on the definitions provided, Ditto can always activate his Imposter ability and continue to wreck havoc on the opposing team; making him ineligible for C Rank and somewhere in B Rank.

I think it is because he has the crippling flaw of.. well.. only being as good as the other team.
Against defensive teams, he is -almost- always a completely useless team slot.
Against offensive teams, he has to come in on a pokemon he can scare out or ohko with their own move.
It might do well some of the time, but it is definitely inconsistent.

 

[NoahStar]

I'd like to make a case to increase a really underrated Pokemon's rank: Ditto. I've been using this guy recently and I strongly believe that the current XY metagame has shaped up in a way such that Ditto becomes significantly more of a threat than in past generations. Firstly, its scouting utility is absolutely banging. It helps you instantly determine unpredictable Pokemon's sets, most notably Genesect, and allows you to act accordingly to that. I mean, the metagame is riddled with Pokemon that can run a plethora of different sets and even run surprise moves to take out lures; examples of these include Thundurus, Azumarill, Charizard, Mega Venusaur, and the previously mentioned Genesect. The scouting utility alone is enough to bring Ditto out of the rank it currently resides in, as it significantly aids in checking and countering your opposition once you now know exactly what you're up against. The other thing about it is it can seriously screw with your opponent when it copies their Pokemon. It's just another play you can make when trying to take on something, such as Genesect's U-turn (the best part about this is you can potentially get +2 Attack or +1 Special Attack/Attack), Mega Venusaur's Giga Drain, Landorus-T's Earthquake, and a myriad of other things. Finally, just the fact that Choice Scarf Ditto checks literally every single boosting sweeper or just basic all-out attackers is unreal. Not only will the opponent actually hesitate to boost in fear of Ditto, it easily prevents you from getting swept by something like Dragon Dance Gyarados and Charizard-X, Tail Glow Manaphy, Swords Dance Diggersby, and Nasty Plot Thundurus if they do choose to boost. This fact can significantly damage the opponent, or even sweep them clean altogether, when you're rolling with an exact copy of their sweeper with 1.5x the Speed. I love that about it. So, with all of that considered, I'd like to take Ditto out of C territory and nominate it for B- rank.

The fact that Ditto can help you find the exact set for Genesect--the one Pokemon that you don't want to try guessing the set of--is honestly enough reason to use him. I'm all for moving him to B- or B but it is hard to bring him in unless its after a kill...

 

[Voltage]

I think it is because he has the crippling flaw of.. well.. only being as good as the other team.
Against defensive teams, he is -almost- always a completely useless team slot.
Against offensive teams, he has to come in on a pokemon he can scare out or ohko with their own move.
It might do well some of the time, but it is definitely inconsistent.

I'm going to second this statement. Whenever I have faced ditto, all I would have to do is switch into something defensively oriented on my team, and odds are Ditto will make the bad choice, and therein be locked. Ditto can work sometimes, but not to the point where it should be B rank. Speaking from experience, Ditto has never posed a threat to my team because odds are, I'm able to counter it since it has the Choice Scarf. It usually switches out, and can waste a slot of a perfectly good team mate. That said, Ditto does have its benefits. Against a HO team, Ditto thrives but quite frankly, how many HO teams have you seen on the ladder since Gen 5? To conclude I would nominate Ditto to stay C+/C rank. It can sweep through parts of the metagame, but is severely flawed in one way or another.

 

[Cobalt314]

I would like to nominate Metagross for C/B- Rank. It is a very dangerous threat with an Assault Vest, but the new weaknesses to Dark and Ghost pretty much sealed the fate of a Pokémon that was already slipping. Don't get me wrong, the Quad Core Processor is my personal favorite, but I don't think it can function as effectively or viably this generation.

 

[Srn]

I second this nomination... Ditto's information gathering is such an enormous tool and on top of it, his ability to precisely gather the said information on top of being a deterrent to teams with boosting sweepers makes him all the more mentionable. Here are the definitions for B and C Class Pokémon:

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks.

Thus, based on the definitions provided, Ditto can always activate his Imposter ability and continue to wreck havoc on the opposing team; making him ineligible for C Rank and somewhere in B Rank.

That's not entirely true, imposter doesn't copy a pokemon that is hiding behind a sub. This could always be trouble when you're trying to do something about that sub-punch (or just any threatening sub user in general) mawile and it turns out you stay ditto and have to let somebody else eat a powerful attack. Basically, a very solid phazer is absolutely necessary when running ditto.

I like ditto due to the scouting abilities it gives, but I find that it gets worn down way too quickly. 48 base hp is not stellar by any means

Furthermore, when the opponent brings in ditto, you too know exactly what to bring in to check it. If you don't have a check to it, well, that might be bad news, but its never tough to predict one move correctly and then abuse the fact that its choice locked. (For this reason, I actually sorta prefer focus sash)

However, his scouting ability is still godly and the pressure he can apply, forcing the opponent to wait until it is dead before they can sweep is outstanding. I definitely think ditto for B- as well, but he has plenty of flaws preventing him from going further.

 

[Ruffles]

That's not entirely true, imposter doesn't copy a pokemon that is hiding behind a sub. This could always be trouble when you're trying to do something about that sub-punch (or just any threatening sub user in general) mawile and it turns out you stay ditto and have to let somebody else eat a powerful attack. Basically, a very solid phazer is absolutely necessary when running ditto.

I like ditto due to the scouting abilities it gives, but I find that it gets worn down way too quickly. 48 base hp is not stellar by any means

Furthermore, when the opponent brings in ditto, you too know exactly what to bring in to check it. If you don't have a check to it, well, that might be bad news, but its never tough to predict one move correctly and then abuse the fact that its choice locked. (For this reason, I actually sorta prefer focus sash)

However, his scouting ability is still godly and the pressure he can apply, forcing the opponent to wait until it is dead before they can sweep is outstanding. I definitely think ditto for B- as well, but he has plenty of flaws preventing him from going further.

Copying Megas + Item is also extremely good. As added power in form of Expert Belt, or added speed in form of Scarf, will help most of the common Megas. (Copying Physical Lucario, then Scarf CC)

 

[Lcs865]

Lopunny for D-Rank:
Almost a strictly niche Pokemon, Lopunny is the best at two things: Baton Passing and Switcheroo + Assault Vest counter lead. However, Lopunny preforms these niche roles very well, so I feel Lopunny is deserving of a rank.

Mega-Charizard X for A+ Rank:
Mega Charizard X is a MASSIVE threat, but not worthy of the same position as Zard Y, Genesect, etc. Zard X is a fitting A+ Poke in my opinion and doesn't need to be included within S rank.

Haxorus for C+ Rank
Although Haxorus lost power due to not being able to spam Outrage due to fairies, Haxorus still has an impressive 147 Base Attack, allowing it to hit anything like a truck.

 

[Salemance]

Lopunny for D-Rank:
Almost a strictly niche Pokemon, Lopunny is the best at two things: Baton Passing and Switcheroo + Assault Vest counter lead. However, Lopunny preforms these niche roles very well, so I feel Lopunny is deserving of a rank.

Mega-Charizard X for A+ Rank:
Mega Charizard X is a MASSIVE threat, but not worthy of the same position as Zard Y, Genesect, etc. Zard X is a fitting A+ Poke in my opinion and doesn't need to be included within S rank.

Haxorus for C+ Rank
Although Haxorus lost power due to not being able to spam Outrage due to fairies, Haxorus still has an impressive 147 Base Attack, allowing it to hit anything like a truck.

Haxorus is outclassed by every other Dragon due to lack of additional STAB to assist it, and outclassed by those who don't have reliable stab due to their ability (Dragonite) and Salamence (due to his ability to beat common physical switch ins due to his usable Sp. Atk stat). He has his uses (Mold Breaker is a GREAT one) but not enough to distinguish his use when so many better/other dragons dominate above him (and considering Salamence is C+ atm, then he needs to be C- or so at best).

 

[Aragorn the King]

^got buried before.

Whatcha all think?

Well, I wouldn't say you're safe from Garchomp, as most are scarfed (who outspeed and OHKO) or mega (who I believe avoid the 2HKO). Scarf Magnezone's biggest problem is still its speed, as it can only reach 360. Thus, every pokemon with a base speed of 115 will outspeed you and tear you apart. 70/115/90 bulk is decent if invested in HP, but if you want a speedy set it just isn't that bulky. Magnezone hits hard, there's no doubt about that, but in my opinion its bulk and speed don't cut it for A-. I'd place it probably in B rank, as it can do its job effectively, but it does have many obstacles to overcome.

Lopunny for D-Rank:
Almost a strictly niche Pokemon, Lopunny is the best at two things: Baton Passing and Switcheroo + Assault Vest counter lead. However, Lopunny preforms these niche roles very well, so I feel Lopunny is deserving of a rank.

Mega-Charizard X for A+ Rank:
Mega Charizard X is a MASSIVE threat, but not worthy of the same position as Zard Y, Genesect, etc. Zard X is a fitting A+ Poke in my opinion and doesn't need to be included within S rank.

Haxorus for C+ Rank
Although Haxorus lost power due to not being able to spam Outrage due to fairies, Haxorus still has an impressive 147 Base Attack, allowing it to hit anything like a truck.

I completely agree with Lopunny.

Charizard X would be a A+ threat if it started out in that form, but in my opinion what makes it S is the fact that on the first turn the opponent has no idea what its counters will be. It can easily get a dragon dance off, and then sweep pretty much every pokemon there is. Again, you are right that it itself is not worthy of the same rank as Mega Luke or Genesect, but the element of surprise it has is what makes it S.

Regarding Haxorus, I completely agree with Salemance.

 

[6feetunder]

Lopunny for D-Rank:
Almost a strictly niche Pokemon, Lopunny is the best at two things: Baton Passing and Switcheroo + Assault Vest counter lead. However, Lopunny preforms these niche roles very well, so I feel Lopunny is deserving of a rank.

lopunny is crap and should not be ranked. the only thing remotely notable about it is klutz + switcheroo, making it easy to cockblock by simply switching a mega into it. there are plenty of good mons that can cripple stuff with trick/switcheroo while not being complete garbage outside of doing so.

lopunny was barely D rank in NU last gen, there is no reason for it to be ranked in OU.

 

[rachet67]

Lopunny is absolutely useless in everything else it does and is dead weight on a team. Stick the multitude of much better trick users.

lopunny is crap and should not be ranked. the only thing remotely notable about it is klutz + switcheroo, making it easy to cockblock by simply switching a mega into it. there are plenty of good mons that can cripple stuff with trick/switcheroo while not being complete garbage outside of doing so.

lopunny was barely D rank in NU last gen, there is no reason for it to be ranked in OU.

On the topic of cockblocking, Conkeldurr completely counters trick-assualt vest.

 

[Lcs865]

lopunny is crap and should not be ranked. the only thing remotely notable about it is klutz + switcheroo, making it easy to cockblock by simply switching a mega into it. there are plenty of good mons that can cripple stuff with trick/switcheroo while not being complete garbage outside of doing so.

lopunny was barely D rank in NU last gen, there is no reason for it to be ranked in OU.

Even ignoring the Switcheroo set, Lopunny is a staple in almost all baton pass teams.

 

[dcae]

...

EDIT: Yeah Lopunny is complete trash. Absolute shit at everything, should never be used in OU ever. It does nothing for Baton Pass teams honestly, and its Klutz Switcheroo is really not worth the slot when you can use shit like Band Talonflame, a random Trick Scarfer, etc. No ranking for it.

 

[jam]

Even ignoring the Switcheroo set, Lopunny is a staple in almost all baton pass teams.

lopunny is not a staple in almost all baton pass teams

source: my infinite and masterful knowledge of pokemon

 

[Molk]

Agreeing that Lopunny is pretty bad and i don't think it deserves any kind of ranking at all on this list, it's aggressively mediocre all around and Klutz+Switcheroo (pretty much the only niche she has at all) isn't nearly enough to justify a slot on the list imo, especially when lopunny has trouble posing a threat in any other way and Mega pokemon (on a LOT) of teams are completely immune to getting tricked.

Also, i have never seen a Lopunny on a (good) full baton pass team in any tier in my entire life :x. If anything, stuff like Espeon and Speed Boost Scolipede are way better examples of BP Staples.

 

[Lcs865]

Agreeing that Lopunny is pretty bad and i don't think it deserves any kind of ranking at all on this list, it's aggressively mediocre all around and Klutz+Switcheroo (pretty much the only niche she has at all) isn't nearly enough to justify a slot on the list imo, especially when lopunny has trouble posing a threat in any other way and Mega pokemon (on a LOT) of teams are completely immune to getting tricked.

Also, i have never seen a Lopunny on a (good) full baton pass team in any tier in my entire life :x. Lopunny is barely used on the OU ladder at all (and pretty much 100% sure its literally never used in tournament play) according to the recent usage stats and the teammate stats for this month don't suggest those few uses being on baton pass teams at all. if anything, stuff like Espeon and Speed Boost Scolipede are way better examples of BP Staples.

It sees the best usage of Cosmic Power + Baton Pass, clearly outdoing Lunatone, Delcatty and Smeargle. Plus, it gets other moves to enhance this combo like Encore and whatnot.

 

[Exclaimer]

It sees the best usage of Cosmic Power + Baton Pass, clearly outdoing Lunatone, Delcatty and Smeargle. Plus, it gets other moves to enhance this combo like Encore and whatnot.

Smeargle is a better user, because it has Spore, Dark Void, and literally every other move in the entire game.

 

[jam]

It sees the best usage of Cosmic Power + Baton Pass, clearly outdoing Lunatone, Delcatty and Smeargle. Plus, it gets other moves to enhance this combo like Encore and whatnot.

its the best user of cosmic power + baton pass but that doesnt mean its good, which it very much isnt
if we rank lopunny well have to rank pokemon like pupitar and horsea too

source: my infinite and masterful knowledge of pokemon

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[perplexingpool]

Not to mention that Stockpile+Baton Pass is basically the same thing and can be done by Drifblim and Mawile, both of which are better than Lopunny (not that you should use a Mega Mawile for Stockpile passing lol)

 

[Exclaimer]

Not to mention that Stockpile+Baton Pass is basically the same thing and can be done by Drifblim and Mawile, both of which are better than Lopunny (not that you should use a Mega Mawile for Stockpile passing lol)

But that's the thing: You can use regular Mawile instead of the mega. I think that's why it's listed in the first place (The non-mega one, that is.)

 

[Seiterman]

It sees the best usage of Cosmic Power + Baton Pass, clearly outdoing Lunatone, Delcatty and Smeargle. Plus, it gets other moves to enhance this combo like Encore and whatnot.

If that's your competition for a niche your niche is probably not very good. Just putting that out there.

Going back to a different topic, I think Ditto is absolutely fine where it is. It's too dependent on your opponent. When it works it works magnificently. Baton Pass teams literally cannot function if you have Ditto waiting in the wings and you keep them from having a Sub up. Many sweepers can't set up without endangering their teams immensely. Even against random other stuff you have the ability to do something, whether that be crippling an opponent, taking a hit by abusing abilities (switch into Heatran, transform and get a Flash Fire boost, for example,) scouting sets or VoltTurning out. There are few better choices for a revenge killer. However, as said earlier, Ditto struggles with bulkier teams (and bulky boosters in particular.) Furthermore, he's still kept in check with careful play and team composition.

That said, he's so much fun if you get him to work. Just let a Baton Pass team do their thing then dismantle it with a huge sweeper they essentially gave you. =P