Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

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114 said:
alexwolf
Some changes I propose... I don't wanna go in depth for each one cause that will be a huge wall of text. So instead maybe it can spur some discussion.

Aegislash: S --> A (The days of this thing being king are over. The meta is super prepared for it. It's not that good. The only thing that it temporarily can boast is that it stops lucario, which is gonna be gone. It was an S-tier pokemon when the meta was new, now it's totally nbd)
Venusaur: S --> A (Same goes for venu. Gets wrecked by SR, weather, and burns (if it's on your team it's probably your answer to Rotom-W. have fun getting burned). When lucario and genesect leaves, it's lost 2 of its main purposes. Still a nice azumarill counter, but it's not that good anymore. Birds, pinsir, deo-S, latios, and charizard, basically most of the upper tier completely destroy venu)
Conkeldurr: A-->A- (Since when has conk actually had major utility for your team? It mostly "fills in the gap" per say, and isn't as bulky or strong as it pretends to be)
Greninja: A--> A- (Idk I just feel it's not that good. A- material)
Gyarados: A--> A- (Mega doesn't get crunch, and the non-mega can't wall very well because of SR)
Mega Scizor (only): A--> S (Has the bulk of skarmory and a beastly typing. Late game SD sweeps are incredibly easy, or it can be a huge tank and counter azumarill with insane utility in defog (hazards), knock off (wear down), u turn (momentum), and bullet punch (priority). This thing is the most underrated mega out there. Most of its stops can be taken out by the combination of U-turn to mag/dug if you want to sweep)
Terrakion: A--> A- (Fairies really fucked this guy, and aegislash. Hard to stay relevant. Not A material imo)
Hippowdon: B --> A- (Definitely a great wall and huge support in smooth rock. Worthy of the small A- tier)
Tornadus-T: B--> A- (Assault vest set can switch into 80% of the metagame and has access to knock off/uturn/flying+fight mix coverage... life orb set takes more advatnage of the airslash+superpower coverage, while also hitting with hard fast uturns. Incredible utility)
Espeon: C+--> B (It's not that great, but it has the niche of being the best offensive dual screener because it has baton pass for HUGE momentum on HO teams. That's enough of a niche for me)
Magnezone: C+ --> B+ (It's not 5th gen where its a deadweight on teams without skarmory or ferrothorn. This thing (scarved) is just a generally good pokemon that can take out top threats and make way for huge sweeps. So many 1800+ teams use this as a testament to its underrated-ness)

Also pokemon can't be "conclusion reached" forever. It should be more like "discussion banned for 30 days". Same goes for blacklisted..
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I've never had a lot of trouble with Aegislash but then again I run Mandibuzz on all my teams. I can't comment on it much, but it's really threatening and has a lot of sets.

No, please no more venu discussion. It's stupid bulky and really hard to take down. It's the best defensive mega by a mile. No one cares that it's wrecked by STAB SE moves LIKE ALL WALLS EVER.

"Idk I just feel it's not that good" is not much of an argument (though I agree with you.)

Mega Gyarados is a really good dragon dancer, lack of a good Dark STAB isn't holding it back much. Normal form can't wall because it doesn't have good recovery, not because it's weak to rocks.
 
I agree to the deranking of Aegislash. I have never, ever had trouble going against it and I never really had any success with it either. It's just screwed over so hard by the amount of Ground/Fire types in this meta, being destroyed by Charizard Y, Lando, and hell, even Terrakion's EQ coverage is enough to scare it off, or in my case, OHKO since it almost never gets in before I swords dance. I just think it's not as good as it used to be. 150 SpA Shadow Ball is scary, but Mandibuzz completely walls it and a lot of pokes don't really mind the damage/can recover it off as he King's Shield in order to survive anything. I have to agree, the meta has morphed to combat it and it's just not as good as it used to be.

I feel that Aegislash should be moved to A+, which still testifies to how good it is while giving it the rank that it deserves.
 
Aegislash is completely deserving of S Rank. It isn't predictable, and I don't know why people are saying it is. It can run a multitude of different sets. It has a huge amount of power, and for goodness sakes, it can 2HKO Mandibuzz with Flash Cannon if you're that worried about it. It has a wealth of options at its disposal. If you're saying it is predictable because it is obvious when it will King's Shield, you're wrong, as the Aegislash user can play around you easily with King's Shield, not the other way around.

As for Shaymin, I wholeheartedly believe it deserves a high rank. While it competed heavily with Celebi in BW, the Dark-type buff has severely affected Celebi, while Shaymin remains remotely the same. It is mandatory for it to run Hidden Power Rock so Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, and Charizard Y can't switch in, and its best set is a Life Orb set with Seed Flare / Earth Power / Hidden Power Rock / Dazzling Gleam | Psychic. Its coverage allows it to threaten almost the entire metagame, while Seed Flare in itself is simply great just to catch foes on the switch-in and halve their Special Defense. It does have both Synthesis and Rest + Natural Cure for defensive sets and sets that require recovery, and Air Slash is often unnecessary as it doesn't really provide much in terms of coverage.
 
114 said:
alexwolf

Aegislash: S --> A The days of this thing being king are over.
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..No, we're still in Aegislash's metagame. The reason that Terrakion of all things is out of OU range? Aegislash. The reason nearly every single offensive pokemon that gets it uses Earthquake or Earth Power as a coverage move? Aegislash. Will-O-Wisp is also extremely popular mostly because burn is the most reliable status that bothers Aegislash. I find this suggestion to be completely absurd.
 
I want to nominate Wobbuffet for B/B+ rank

Wobbuffet is a very potent threat, ranging from simple CounterCoat, to tickle sets and (potentially) Charmbuffet. Wobbuffet is near guaranteed a kill, barring moves that can OHKO wobbo. Thanks to Wobbo's high HP, he can live many attacks, while retaliating with twice the moves power; with Wobbo's colossal HP, it will KO or near KO most pokes.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

Wobbo requires no support, in fact providing it. The only flaw is the potential to the OHKO'd or have a sub set up on him. While these are troublesome, i would hardly say crippling. Even VoltTurn is not a weakness, as wobbo can simply nail and trap the switch-in. The only other poke that can trap with the efficiency that Wobbo can is Megagar. Tickle sets can destroy walls, encore can allow set-up/a surefire hit with CounterCoat, and charm (may) be able to allow set up.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Wobbo fits this much better, as he fufills several niches. He is a support poke with several flaws, and he can be set-up bait for Pokemon to set up behind a sub. He is effective nevertheless though.
 
Prosecutor Godot said:
..No, we're still in Aegislash's metagame. The reason that Terrakion of all things is out of OU range? Aegislash. The reason nearly every single offensive pokemon that gets it uses Earthquake or Earth Power as a coverage move? Aegislash. Will-O-Wisp is also extremely popular mostly because burn is the most reliable status that bothers Aegislash. I find this suggestion to be completely absurd.
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Yeah.... you just named all the reasons it shouldn't be S rank anymore. Because the meta has completely shifted to countering it.

Aegislash is an amazing pokemon.. when I first saw it I thought it might even get banned.. and using LO shadow ball set on the first week of simulator was ridiculous cause it destroyed everything. Now it just can't do the same. Not S rank anymore is the idea.
 
114 said:
Yeah.... you just named all the reasons it shouldn't be S rank anymore. Because the meta has completely shifted to countering it.

Aegislash is an amazing pokemon.. when I first saw it I thought it might even get banned.. and using LO shadow ball set on the first week of simulator was ridiculous cause it destroyed everything. Now it just can't do the same. Not S rank anymore is the idea.
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So you are saying Aegislash isn't good enough for S when it FORCED the meta game to adapt to it....
WHAT!
If anything that makes it fit S-Rank perfectly.
It hasn't lost anything as its still practically unwallable and NOTHING enjoys switching in on it. It's Incredibly bulky, boasts almost as much raw power as FRIGGIN ZARD Y, and has great typing.
With Lucarionite leaving Aegislash defines S rank.
 
If Aegislash is S-rank when people expect it to be everywhere, but not anymore, then logically its usage should drop, reducing its prominence and therefore the preparations for it. This, in turn, would shift conditions back so that it would be as effective as it used to be and make it S-rank again.

There's no sense in having that sort of bounciness. Either it's actively operating at S-rank effectiveness or it's exerting an S-rank influence on the metagame. We don't need to get caught in some cycle of flipping its rank around as it rotates between the two.
 
114 said:
Yeah.... you just named all the reasons it shouldn't be S rank anymore. Because the meta has completely shifted to countering it.

Aegislash is an amazing pokemon.. when I first saw it I thought it might even get banned.. and using LO shadow ball set on the first week of simulator was ridiculous cause it destroyed everything. Now it just can't do the same. Not S rank anymore is the idea.
Click to expand...

Just because the metagame adapted to deal with it doesn't mean Aegislash shouldn't be S Rank anymore. Take Xerneas in Ubers for example. GeoXern was so insane, people almost wanted to ban it, in a banlist tier no less! But when the dust settled and people found more and more answers to it, guess what? It was still as annoying as balls! Aegislash is a very difficult Pokemon to wall, as its impeccable 150/150 offenses, overall coverage, and KS mindgames it can play can throw off a lot of strategies. Even the stuff that wall it completely have a hard time dealing with it if it runs the right coverage move, as TRC. said with Flash Cannon with Mandibuzz. Awesome wallbreaking and sweeping potential, coupled with good versatility is why Aegislash is S rank for a reason.
 
Oh. 114 post. How I miss these.

Mega Venusaur would've only been A under an opportunity cost presented against it taking a Mega slot. Beyond that the discussion is finalized.

Also Aegislash to A is kind of a joke. Mixed Aegislash really ramps up the threatening aspect and isn't as one - dimensional as Swords Dance.

I'll address more later but I'm sure I will be flamed hard for this - but I can buy Talonflame in S.
 
Though Aegislash is a big topic, speaking of the Steel nerf, I want to talk about a Pokemon that was once a top star of the tier, but has fallen from usage lately, and I feel that I should start some sort of discussion about it. That Pokemon is Jirachi, and the possible nomination of it to B Rank, at the very worst C+ Rank. Since Jirachi can do so many things that I am still not aware of, let's look at the definition of B Rank (because everyone loves definition repitition)
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Jirachi has always been a versatile and annoying Pokemon to deal with, primarily because of its solid BST, great offensive and support movepool, and of course, it practically invented the Serene Grace shenanigans we know today. With these factors put into consideration, Jirachi can still perform defensive or offensive sets to a relatively good degree, with T-Wave+Iron Head almost always guaranteeing either it killed or crippled something. Serene Grace furthers this by giving it even more chances to crush the spirits of players everywhere (ex. Fire Blast burns, Ice Punch freezes, etc.), always letting it have its way with something. Also, its support movepool of fun stuff like Wish, Stealth Rock, U-turn, and other things I haven't mentioned let Jirachi effectively carve itself a great niche as a good example as a utility 'mon, preventing the opponent from figuring out the possible set before something gets crippled or flinched to death. Despite these great things that Jirachi has going for it, it has to deal with one major thing: the Steel nerf. Like its Steel/Psychic brothers Bronzong and Metagross, Jirachi has to deal with 2 spankin' new weaknesses in Ghost and Dark, preventing it from checking the things it used to effectively. Also, some of the sets it can perform may lead to it getting outperformed by other top-tier Pokemon, like Mandibuzz for defensive sets or Landorus/Manaphy for offensive sets (Jesus Christ these were bad examples). Regardless, I feel that Jirachi still has a solid niche in this metagame as a B-rank mon, and if my explanation is not good enough (trust me, it's not), further elaboration on it would be neat.
 
Giometry said:
So you are saying Aegislash isn't good enough for S when it FORCED the meta game to adapt to it....
WHAT!
If anything that makes it fit S-Rank perfectly.
It hasn't lost anything as its still practically unwallable and NOTHING enjoys switching in on it. It's Incredibly bulky, boasts almost as much raw power as FRIGGIN ZARD Y, and has great typing.
With Lucarionite leaving Aegislash defines S rank.
Click to expand...

No I read the rest of your post

Lucarionite helps Aegi stay S as Aegi can live crunch and then OHKO in return with sacred sword, so Lucarionite actually helps it.

It has lost things; namely, the element of surprise, as (most) teams are prepared for it, because the metagame adapted to counter it..
 
For the "Conclusion Reached" mons, is there somewhere I can see the major talking points on them; like, for example, is Latios A tier because it's still a very good offensive mon, or is it NOT A+ tier because of Fairies and the recent popularilzation of Darks (I hope I'm making sense)?
 
Blinkythechicken said:
No I read the rest of your post

Lucarionite helps Aegi stay S as Aegi can live crunch and then OHKO in return with sacred sword, so Lucarionite actually helps it.

It has lost things; namely, the element of surprise, as (most) teams are prepared for it, because the metagame adapted to counter it..
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So say Aegislash moves down, so many of its checks and counter would change one of its moves or change the whole moveset to adapt the other S-Tier list mons. When Aegislash comes against that team, people will make a fuss about it being S-Rank again. There's no point in changing it. Also, if you can say Aegislash should move down, shouldn't Mega Lucario move down too? Because it has alot of checks and counters, but why is it still S-Rank? Because of its versatile sets it can run + Adaptability still wrecks its checks/counters on the correct timing with the use of 'free turns' to set up.
 
Kai013 said:
Also, if you can say Aegislash should move down, shouldn't Mega Lucario move down too? Because it has alot of checks and counters.
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Wait, what?

Kai013 said:
Because it has alot of checks and counters.
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What? Barely anything counters it fully. Remember, a counter is something that can come in on it and then win. Nothing barring ghosts can come in well on a STAB adaptability CC, before taking ANOTHER AND winning the matchup. If it's a ghost, then crunch. Talonflame, then Espeed. Only one poke can do all this and cripple/beat Luc; Sableye. And even that is shaky; if Luc has bullet punch over E-speed then luc can do good damage to Sab. This is only the physical set; the special one dosen't care about Sableye's WoW. Aegi can CHECK it, as it can take cruch and hit back. 2 pokemon. 1 check, one counter. And both are shaky. You will be hardpressed to find anymore counters, as near-nothing can take 2 CCs. And checks are quite rare as well, as not much can force Luc out.
 
Update time:

Sharpedo: Unranked ---> B-
Gardevoir: B ---> C+
Gardevoir (Mega): B ---> B+
Cloyster: Unranked ---> C-
Deoxys-D: Stays in A
Manaphy: Stays in A+
Thundurus: Stays in A+
Ampharos (Mega): Unranked ---> C+
Tangrowth: Stays in C+
Diggersby: B- ---> B
Jirachi: Unranked ---> B
Aggron (Mega): Unranked ---> B-
Pinsir (Mega): Stays in S
Infernape: C+ ---> C
Magnezone: C+ ---> C
Salamence: Stays in C+
Shaymin: Unranked ---> C-
Nidoking: Unranked ---> C-
Mega Tyranitar: Stays in A
Hippowdon: B ---> B+
Rhyperior: Unranked ---> C
Zygarde: B- ---> B
Froslass: Unranked ---> C-
Azelf: Unranked ---> C
Meloetta: Unranked ---> C-
Rotom-C: Unranked ---> C-
Chesnaught: Stays in B-
Landorus-T: A ---> A+
Slowking: Unranked ---> C-
Houndoom (Mega): Unranked ---> C
Krookodile: B ---> C+
Crobat: C- ---> C
Escavalier: Unranked ---> C
Banette (Mega): Unranked ---> D

114 said:
Also pokemon can't be "conclusion reached" forever. It should be more like "discussion banned for 30 days". Same goes for blacklisted..
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Those Pokemon have reached their ideal ranking conclusively, so unless the metagame changes (something gets banned or released), there is nothing more to be said about them, simple as that. And blacklisted Pokemon just attract bad posters like magnets and fuck up the thread, while also being very insignificant Pokemon, so they are locked permanently, unless the metagame changes.
 
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Blinkythechicken said:
Wait, what?



What? Barely anything counters it fully. Remember, a counter is something that can come in on it and then win. Nothing barring ghosts can come in well on a STAB adaptability CC, before taking ANOTHER AND winning the matchup. If it's a ghost, then crunch. Talonflame, then Espeed. Only one poke can do all this and cripple/beat Luc; Sableye. And even that is shaky; if Luc has bullet punch over E-speed then luc can do good damage to Sab. This is only the physical set; the special one dosen't care about Sableye's WoW. Aegi can CHECK it, as it can take cruch and hit back. 2 pokemon. 1 check, one counter. And both are shaky. You will be hardpressed to find anymore counters, as near-nothing can take 2 CCs. And checks are quite rare as well, as not much can force Luc out.
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Yeah that was a bad example, Lucario has practically no counters. Anyway, that's not the criteria for S-rank - it's the criteria for getting banned.

The point is that the main reason Aegislash's counters are so common is because it's so good it has warped the metagame around itself. That's solid S-rank.
 
alexwolf said:
Update time:

Sharpedo: Unranked ---> B-
Gardevoir: B ---> C+
Gardevoir (Mega): B ---> B+
Cloyster: Unranked ---> C-
Deoxys-D: Stays in A
Manaphy: Stays in A+
Thundurus: Stays in A+
Ampharos (Mega): Unranked ---> C+
Tangrowth: Stays in C+
Diggersby: B- ---> B
Jirachi: Unranked ---> B
Aggron (Mega): Unranked ---> B-
Pinsir (Mega): Stays in S
Infernape: C+ ---> C
Magnezone: C+ ---> C
Salamence: Stays in C+
Shaymin: Unranked ---> C-
Nidoking: Unranked ---> C-
Mega Tyranitar: Stays in A
Hippowdon: B ---> B+
Rhyperior: Unranked ---> C
Zygarde: B- ---> B
Froslass: Unranked ---> C-
Azelf: Unranked ---> C
Meloetta: Unranked ---> C-
Rotom-C: Unranked ---> C-
Chesnaught: Stays in B-
Landorus-T: A ---> A+
Slowking: Unranked ---> C-
Houndoom (Mega): Unranked ---> C
Krookodile: B ---> C+
Crobat: C- ---> C
Escavalier: Unranked ---> C
Banette (Mega): Unranked ---> D
Click to expand...

Do you guys have something against Hippo in A-Rank or what? Like seriously. Some kind of explanation would be great. Kind of BS that we're left in the dark about some of the more influential placements.
 
alexwolf said:
Update time:

Sharpedo: Unranked ---> B-
Gardevoir: B ---> C+
Gardevoir (Mega): B ---> B+
Cloyster: Unranked ---> C-
Deoxys-D: Stays in A
Manaphy: Stays in A+
Thundurus: Stays in A+
Ampharos (Mega): Unranked ---> C+
Tangrowth: Stays in C+
Diggersby: B- ---> B
Jirachi: Unranked ---> B
Aggron (Mega): Unranked ---> B-
Pinsir (Mega): Stays in S
Infernape: C+ ---> C
Magnezone: C+ ---> C
Salamence: Stays in C+
Shaymin: Unranked ---> C-
Nidoking: Unranked ---> C-
Mega Tyranitar: Stays in A
Hippowdon: B ---> B+
Rhyperior: Unranked ---> C
Zygarde: B- ---> B
Froslass: Unranked ---> C-
Azelf: Unranked ---> C
Meloetta: Unranked ---> C-
Rotom-C: Unranked ---> C-
Chesnaught: Stays in B-
Landorus-T: A ---> A+
Slowking: Unranked ---> C-
Houndoom (Mega): Unranked ---> C
Krookodile: B ---> C+
Crobat: C- ---> C
Escavalier: Unranked ---> C
Banette (Mega): Unranked ---> D
Click to expand...

What happened with Shaymin? Everyone, and I'm pretty sure I'm not exaggerating, suggested B- or higher.
 
Gary2346 said:
Do you guys have something against Hippo in A-Rank or what? Like seriously. Some kind of explanation would be great. Kind of BS that we're left in the dark about some of the more influential placements.
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I don't Gary, and i agree with Hippo for A-, but apparently most of the other OU mods don't, so i would like as well to see some clarification for this.

And fincent1, Shaymin was ranked so low because it struggles a lot in this metagame. It is outclassed by Mega Venusaur in offensive roles, and by a plethora of other Grass-types (Celebi, Trevenant, Gourgeist, Tangrowth, Ferrothorn) in defensive ones, making it very hard to justify using it. Seed Flare is really meh when Grass resists are everywhere, especially 4x ones, such as Mega Char X, Mega Char Y, Mega Pinsir, Mega Venusaur, Talonflame, Skarmory, and Genesect.
 
TooMuchSugar said:
Yeah that was a bad example, Lucario has practically no counters. Anyway, that's not the criteria for S-rank - it's the criteria for getting banned.

The point is that the main reason Aegislash's counters are so common is because it's so good it has warped the metagame around itself. That's solid S-rank.
Click to expand...

Okay that was my bad on my end. But the thing is I still can't explain any further that Aegislash is still S-Rank material because of how almost every mons in the OU tier are revolving around him as per quoted by TooMuchSugar. I think that's how I wanted to explain it but gave a wrong example, my bad.
 
alexwolf said:
I don't Gary, and i agree with Hippo for A-, but apparently most of the other OU mods don't, so i would like as well to see some clarification for this.

And fincent1, Shaymin was ranked so low because it struggles a lot in this metagame. It is outclassed by Mega Venusaur in offensive roles, and by a plethora of other Grass-types (Celebi, Trevenant, Gourgeist, Tangrowth, Ferrothorn) in defensive ones, making it very hard to justify using it. Seed Flare is really meh when Grass resists are everywhere, especially 4x ones, such as Mega Char Y, Mega Char Y, Mega Pinsir, Mega Venusaur, Talonflame, Skarmory, and Genesect.
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I don't mean to be a bother, but could you also explain Banette's ranking? It's very similar to Sableye, with a couple major and minor differences:

Major +:
• It has an offensive presence. 165 base attack with one of the best offensive typings as STAB is scary.
• It gets destiny bond. This means it is guaranteed to get rid of a troublesome pokemon on the opposing team, as long as they aren't sweeping with priority.

Minor +:
• It has more bulk than Sableye.

----------

Major -:
• On the first turn, you don't have prankster

Minor -:
• No recovery
• Cannot be used with other megas.

Obviously as a team player Sableye will 9 times out of 10 be better, but as a focus of a team Banette certainly has a niche. To be D rank, you have to, "[be]
simply not very effective in the current metagame," while to be C ranked, you have to be effective but have crippling flaws, which, in my opinion completely describes Banette. So, by definition, and by comparison to Sableye, I'd recommend Banette (Mega) to C- rank. But I'd like to hear what the OU mods have to say.
 
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