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Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)

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rachet67 said:
I feel like Altaria is a lot less creative of a theorymon than Porygon. I mean, add fairy on almost any mon and it'll be more viable.
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Maybe so, but this isn't the thread for the most creative change to a pokemon, but rather, what feasible and possible change that could happen to a pokemon that would make it have a role in OU would be most interesting to consider.

A slow protean changer? Unless you're predicting a switch and want 1.5 extra power instead of 1.3, it's useless. You'll get slapped with a supereffective move before you can change. Porygon2 is even slower than most walls, if not all, meaning it's not going to be a bulky wall breaker either.

Second turn protean is utterly useless.

Dragon/Fairy on the otherhand provides a genuine niche that is worth using. (I won't really get all that into it now, because I'm hoping to add my thoughts later if Altaria wins)
 
LoDart210 said:
Maybe so, but this isn't the thread for the most creative change to a pokemon, but rather, what feasible and possible change that could happen to a pokemon that would make it have a role in OU would be most interesting to consider.

A slow protean changer? Unless you're predicting a switch and want 1.5 extra power instead of 1.3, it's useless. You'll get slapped with a supereffective move before you can change. Porygon2 is even slower than most walls, if not all, meaning it's not going to be a bulky wall breaker either.

Second turn protean is utterly useless.

Dragon/Fairy on the otherhand provides a genuine niche that is worth using. (I won't really get all that into it now, because I'm hoping to add my thoughts later if Altaria wins)
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Agility makes its speed more than usable and 105 SpA isn't to shabby considering you get stab on everything. And it can still use eviolite making it a fantastic tank, even univested. Who said protean had to be a purely defensive boost for porygon2?
 
rachet67 said:
Agility makes its speed more than usable and 105 SpA isn't to shabby considering you get stab on everything. And it can still use eviolite making it a fantastic tank, even univested. Who said protean had to be a purely defensive boost for porygon2?
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Okay... agility.
So it has to have one turn of set up that turns it into the psychic type, making it weak to the top pokemon in OU, Scizor, Aegislash, Tyranitar (I won't mention genesect due its coming ban), and then that leaves recover for damage recovery (or else what's the point of eviolite) leaving you with two moves left. Toxic for the immunity and added damage... then what? One coverage move?

It's limited, and doesn't do anything notable, much less anything that is outclassed.
 
LoDart210 said:
Okay... agility.
So it has to have one turn of set up that turns it into the psychic type, making it weak to the top pokemon in OU, Scizor, Aegislash, Tyranitar (I won't mention genesect due its coming ban), and then that leaves recover for damage recovery (or else what's the point of eviolite) leaving you with two moves left. Toxic for the immunity and added damage... then what? One coverage move?

It's limited, and doesn't do anything notable, much less anything that is outclassed.
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Agility leaves it weak to those types for one turn. After which you can change your type. Which is why you wouldn't try to use agility on any of those mons. If would be pretty dumb to use toxic on an agility set, especially since it only makes you immune to toxic for one turn, and the counter continues. So basically you have the stab options in tons of high BP moves such as thunderbolt, ice beam, shadow ball, psyshock, psychic, and signal beam (though some are obviously better than others) that all get stab. Since its fast after agility it doesn't necessarily need recover to take advantage of its bulk (though it may be nice) and you can run 3 coverage moves (which, again, all get stab). The potential of protean porygon2 is all speculation, but then again, thats the point of this thread anyways.
 
LoDart210 said:
Maybe so, but this isn't the thread for the most creative change to a pokemon, but rather, what feasible and possible change that could happen to a pokemon that would make it have a role in OU would be most interesting to consider.

A slow protean changer? Unless you're predicting a switch and want 1.5 extra power instead of 1.3, it's useless. You'll get slapped with a supereffective move before you can change. Porygon2 is even slower than most walls, if not all, meaning it's not going to be a bulky wall breaker either.

Second turn protean is utterly useless.

Dragon/Fairy on the otherhand provides a genuine niche that is worth using. (I won't really get all that into it now, because I'm hoping to add my thoughts later if Altaria wins)
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This is wrong, and let me explain you why. First of all, i will post some calcs against Pokemon that Porygon2 could wall/check but not OHKO without Protean, so it ended up taking too much damage in the process (will be using a max HP / max SpA+ spread):
  • 252+ SpA Protean Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 278-330 (81.5 - 96.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252+ SpA Protean Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 336-396 (83.1 - 98%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252+ SpA Protean Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 222-264 (66.8 - 79.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252+ SpA Protean Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 258-306 (85.4 - 101.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252+ SpA Protean Porygon2 Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 372-444 (108.1 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • 252+ SpA Protean Porygon2 Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 174-206 (66.4 - 78.6%), not a OHKO but a pretty impressive number
  • 252+ SpA Protean Porygon2 Psychic vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 192-228 (54.7 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (what would be considered as a perfect counter before)
There are more OHKOs and 2HKOs, and there are other spreads as well, but this should do for what i want to prove.

Furthermore, there is always the potential to use Protean defensively. As i already mentioned, some of the best checks to Porygon2 are Fighting-types, and by carrying Psychic, Toxic, or Shadow Ball you can completely turn the tables in your favor, as long as you hit them on the switch.

Finally, Trick Room + 3 attacks is always a possibility, and with 105 SpA, Life Orb, good bulk, and a wide movepool, Protean Porygon2 could become a good cleaner.
 
Its just that, Porygon2 would be so honking easy to revenge kill. Normal type's a decent defensive type this gen as there aren't that many fighting types (conkeldurr, lucario (we'll see), breloom, mienshao, keldeo, terrakion, heracross, ok, so there's a few, but it's hardly a staple, and fighting coverage is a ghost of what it once was. In fact, as far as single types go, it's one of the best (steel obviously beats it, but besides that, all the others have so many cons they're usually not worth switching to). I honestly don't think I'd ever use protean as trace lets you do things like force intimidate pokes out, get free switch ins on things like heatran, and other fun things. All the other possibilities seem either gimmicky, or overrated as they leave you vulnerable
 
Kairyu_Gen1 said:
Its just that, Porygon2 would be so honking easy to revenge kill. Normal type's a decent defensive type this gen as there aren't that many fighting types (conkeldurr, lucario (we'll see), breloom, mienshao, keldeo, terrakion, heracross, ok, so there's a few, but it's hardly a staple, and fighting coverage is a ghost of what it once was. In fact, as far as single types go, it's one of the best (steel obviously beats it, but besides that, all the others have so many cons they're usually not worth switching to). I honestly don't know if I'd ever use protean as trace lets you do things like force intimidate pokes out, get free switch ins on things like heatran, and other fun things. All the other possibilities seem either gimmicky, or
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Porygon2 was always easy to revenge kill but it doesn't matter, as it's a tank, not a sweeper, unless you are using Trick Room + 3 attacks, in which case it's not easy to revenge kill anyway.
 
alexwolf said:
This is wrong, and let me explain you why. First of all, i will post some calcs against Pokemon that Porygon2 could wall/check but not OHKO without Protean, so it ended up taking too much damage in the process (will be using a max HP / max SpA+ spread):
  • 252+ SpA Protean Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 278-330 (81.5 - 96.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252+ SpA Protean Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 336-396 (83.1 - 98%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252+ SpA Protean Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 222-264 (66.8 - 79.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252+ SpA Protean Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 258-306 (85.4 - 101.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252+ SpA Protean Porygon2 Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 372-444 (108.1 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • 252+ SpA Protean Porygon2 Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 174-206 (66.4 - 78.6%), not a OHKO but a pretty impressive number
  • 252+ SpA Protean Porygon2 Psychic vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 192-228 (54.7 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (what would be considered as a perfect counter before)
There are more OHKOs and 2HKOs, and there are other spreads as well, but this should do for what i want to prove.

Furthermore, there is always the potential to use Protean defensively. As i already mentioned, some of the best checks to Porygon2 are Fighting-types, and by carrying Psychic, Toxic, or Shadow Ball you can completely turn the tables in your favor, as long as you hit them on the switch.

Finally, Trick Room + 3 attacks is always a possibility, and with 105 SpA, Life Orb, good bulk, and a wide movepool, Protean Porygon2 could become a good cleaner.
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Like I said, I don't doubt that Porygon2 would take great advantage of the damage boost of a newly obtained stab. But that's not my argument against it. My argument is it is too slow, and if it wants to be effective in anyway, will run agility or trick room, a psychic move to boost it's speed.

It will also doubtlessly run recover, which will change it back into a normal type. Then you can only pick two coverage moves, severely limiting what you will be able to take out.

Let's say you run three attacking moves. You are now susceptible to toxic or any other status without any means of recover, greatly diminshing it's effectiveness, and due to the necessity of running a speed boosting move (via agility or trick room) it won't be keen to be switching in and out often, as protean would prefer (as seen in Greninja).

Porygon is limited by its need to run a speed boosting move and recover, not by its coverage options or power. THAT is why protean is a waste, or at least, not nearly as effective as it might seem to be, and again, provides no unique niche nor does it outperform any other protean pokemon, except for Keckleon (lol).
 
Yeah Chou has a point. Let's refrain from going into details for each theorymon's viability and merit until the voting ends.
 
Not only am I voting again for Dragon/Fairy Altaria, but I'm also furthering the notion that the loser should be the next thing discussed after the winner.
 
Hmm, Porygon Protean seems to be cool, but i'm not sure that could create more niche for it as it has already similar abilities (trace/analatic);anyway, let's see how it will use that ability for a defense role.
 
I think Dragon/Fairy altaria would give the most interesting discussion

If you want a slow bulky protean user with a huge movepool, there's always kecleon, though admittedly porygon2 would probably be a better user of it

Gale Wings is a stupidly powerful ability and one talonflame is bad enough to deal with. Dealing with both talonflame and articuno on many teams won't be very fun

Rattled emboar might be cool but I can't really see much discussion there besides "yeah, that'd be nice for it to have" like what kinda ended up happening with m-ampharos
 
Porygon2 is already viable as it is, though. It's crazy bulky with Eviolite and has decent offenses and pretty awesome abilities in Trace and Download.

So, I vote for Dragon/Fairy Altaria.
 
Dragon Fairy altaria sounds pretty cool to me , the amount of poks it checks is good enough to reserve it place in middle or high OU , better than that protean pory thats for sure.

Dragon/Fairy Altaria.
 
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And the results are:

Altaria: 42
Porygon2: 19

So here is our new theorymon subject:

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+ Fairy typing replacing Flying
 
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Alright guess I'll start something. Altaria with a Dragon/Fairy typing allows it to check if not counter almost all of the dragons in OU. However it will need a physically defensive spread in order to check Char-X reliably. That Dragon/Fairy typing also allows it to check/counter a variety of Fire types including but not limited to Infernape, Char-Y, and Volcarona. Going through the Viability rankings, I'll just list off the Pokemon that it could check. These include Garchomp/Garchomp-Mega, Char-Y/Char-X, variants of Thundurus-I (as long as not life orb), Rotom-W (although it could just volt switch out), variants of Landorus-T (as long as not max attack which is pretty rare), Dragonite, Keldeo, Lati@s, and variants of Terrakion (as long as not band). So as you can see if it is fully invested in defensive bulk it can avoid 2HKO's from all of these. Altaria would definitely be used much more often with this amazing defensive typing. Seeing as it now has only weaknesses to Steel, Poison, and Ice. That's not a lot to be worried about. This bitch would definitely impact the metagame, and give us all a nice check to all the threats roaming around.
 
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