Garchomp can also do this role, if not better, by using an LO. It doesn't have to be 'meant' to do something necessarily. I just find garchompite a bit of a shame as it doesn't provide anything spectacularly new or an insane buff. The only upside is that you would get no LO damage. But then you could also run expert belt. Garchomp in general just has a wider range of options.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
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Garchomp can also do this role, if not better, by using an LO. It doesn't have to be 'meant' to do something necessarily. I just find garchompite a bit of a shame as it doesn't provide anything spectacularly new or an insane buff. The only upside is that you would get no LO damage. But then you could also run expert belt. Garchomp in general just has a wider range of options.
With sand support, it is a really good wall breaker, practically nothing can wall it. Skarmory gets 2HKOed by Fire Blast, Mandibuzz gets 2HKOed by Stone Edge, Slowbro gets 2HKOed by Earthquake after rocks, yeah pretty much everything. If you really want to wall it you need to be nearly as bulky as Cresselia and not be hit SE by any of its moves, but you still might fall to Swords Dance sets.
and unlike some other wall breakers it has bulk.
Mandibuzz: 110/105/95 defenses
Mega Garchomp: 108/115/95 defenses
Garchomp is as bulky as one of the best walls in the tier. Of course you're not going to be investing in it (I mean you could but Garchomp has 102 speed without mega form, that's a plus) but it's enough to survive some things.
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 313-370 (87.6 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Most powerful unboosted attack in the game has a good chance to not OHKO with zero investment. And the original Dragon Slayer?
252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 256-304 (71.7 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Nope. Life Orb does it though.
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Sarcasm aside, people mentioning that CharY is not a sweeper are correct, it blows massive holes in the opponents team and switches out whenever it can't, however it weak to SR x4 and it has a 4MSS whatever you do, it will have problems with the Pink Blobs, Dragons, Heatran depending on sets and most importantly, scarfers (which you need to scout out) and speedier opponents which you need to both take care and make sure CharY can switch in and out safely. That is essentially the argument for the A+ side, if you disagree with any of the above and think it is simply untrue you have an argument for making it stay in the S-Tier.
Pokemon, serious biz.
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xD serious biz
But serious man-- I wasn't trying to ridicule anyone; I didn't even aim at any specific post.
And while I did post with my own brand of humor (please point to the rule against having a sense of humor...), I actually did build and use a team with the specs I mentioned, and it actually DOES work pretty damn well.
Just attack, and attack, and attack, and wait for the opponent to lose. It's surprising how you can auto-pilot with all that fire power. While using the pokes I mentioned has a glaring Ice weak, it can be overcome with just lots of priority and more attacking.
So making a team that's 100% got Charizard beat just on the fact that every single mon beats Charizard is entirely possible, and actually can be a legitimate strategy in this meta. Side-stepping what is arguably the biggest threat in the meta simply on virtue of power is a pretty big asset.
Don't have any? :/
Why didn't you tell me about this before? Instead of fussing around and trying to catch up with the meta before making a generic Deoslashsharp team and getting reqs for a single ladder before running out of time, I could have used this and voted. You mods are all the same ;_;
I was just saying that CharY needs a bit more support than his siblings and what I think an S-Tier should need to succeed. I mean his brother X gets around scarfs/speedier mons as well as physical walls with DD, and he only has to worry about exactly two mons in the tier if he chooses to limit itself. I'd be fine with CharY as an S-Tier if he is the best wall breaker around.
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CharY is fine as S rank. The guy 2hko's pretty much everyone with only fireblast, solarbeam and focus miss.
I don't really have an opinion on Charizard-Y for A+... frankly I still think ranking Megas and non-megas seperate is a waste of time (better to see megas as an item...); and especially with Charizard, Y and X are way more dangerous because of having totally different counters, and I don't think there's any denying that. Ranking the effectiveness of one independent of the other just seems silly. Charizard itself is an S class threat-- to me that's that's the bottom line.
holy shit CHARIZARD is an S class threat...
holy shit CHARIZARD is an S class threat...
I'm in support of the notion of making Charizard a single S entry as it's true strength comes in the form of being an unpredictable Mega Form.
Goddamnit WE DID THIS FOR LIKE 9 PAGES CAN WE STOP THIS ALREADY.
Like, no offence to anybody but it's been proven and proven again that mega venusaur is the best wall if not ONE OF the best walls in the entire Overused metagame.
The amount of things it can cold stop is ridiculous:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 144-172 (39.5 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
"What was that? oh I got earth powered, didn't even notice"
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 117-138 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Mega Venusaur Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 142-168 (44.3 - 52.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 75-88 (20.6 - 24.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 276-326 (68.3 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(saur is going to hit it before it can drum lets be honest)
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Venusaur: 152-179 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Venusaur: 122-146 (33.5 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 133-157 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 102-122 (31.4 - 37.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Mega Venusaur Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 100-118 (30.8 - 36.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 102-121 (28 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (after k-off)
etc.
Not ONLY that but mega venusaur is one of the most versatile pokemon in the metagame. You may just expect a wall, but it can hit hard with offensive leaf storming sets, SD sets, mixed sets, physical wall sets, bulky attacking sets, mixed wall sets, mixed attacking stats, physical wall sets, special wall sets and little varaitions of all of those sets to beat a lot of pokemon, overall mega venusaur is just, the embodiment of a defensive and balanced S rank
right now I don't have much time but you get the point
Yeah I could definitely see charizard as S. You can fuck with so many people wondering what kind of charizard it will be. Its so great for messing with people.
Yeah, we tier Pokemon along with their Megas as singular entities; do we really get anything out of ranking them separately here? Looking across them, several are stuck together anyway, most don't even have their base form ranked, and in a couple cases it's just "this Pokemon can be slightly more/less effective played this way". Also, I took a look at the Ubers rankings and it seems they also tier Megas alongside the base form? So I really don't understand what's the purpose of doing it different here.
Man, I wonder how the people like a year ago would've reacted if we'd told them S tier for OU in Gen 6 would be Charizard, Venusaur, Pinsir, and the final evo of that floating sword.
Man, I wonder how the people like a year ago would've reacted if we'd told them S tier for OU in Gen 6 would be Charizard, Venusaur, Pinsir, and the final evo of that floating sword.
You know Mega Venusaur's not in "Conlusion Reached," right now, right? Nothing is. We're discussing the viability of the S and A Rank mons based on the recent bans and how those bans affect them.
No one's denying that Venusaur walls a crapton of threats (seriously, you chose Chou Toshio to pick on for that?) The question now is whether or not Venusaur will be hurting due to the losses of Mega Lucario and Genesect. Keep in mind that other Pokemon will see higher/lower usage because of this (most likely the Pokemon Chou listed, which Venusaur doesn't like handling so much.)
I don't know if that's enough to make Venusaur drop a rank, but it's certainly worth discussion.
Mega venusaur loves not having to take +2 flash cannon from a mega luke, hello? Genesect was an important thing it walled and kept in balance, however, it no longer has to worry about the dangerous u-turn to kyurem-b or other tactics. Overall Mega Venusaur is a mixed bag, it lost walling scarf sect for gaining not having to tank u-turn lures and flash cannons
Does it even matter if stuff rises in usage? The definition for an S Rank wall is that it has to be able to wall most of the meta, and that didnt change at all for mega venu. Yes Pinsir might see more usage now and yes Venu doesnt appriciate that but going by that argument we would have to demote aegisslash as well because his counters are everywhere and i still dont think that this is appropriate. Furthermore, and i know thats been mentioned countless times already, but venu didnt get his S Rank because of Mega Luke, he couldnt realy stop him anyway.
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Yes.
The Pokemon that are most commonly used tend to dictate what else is used, and as a result what's viable. A shift towards more powerful Psychic and Flying Pokemon would obviously have an adverse effect on how one can utilize Mega Venusaur if that happens. When something "walls most of the meta," it's not just a matter of what type of Pokemon are walled. A Pokemon could wall most Pokemon outside of the top 10 or outside of the S/A Ranks, but have major issues because it can't deal with extremely common, powerful threats.
I never said that Venusaur could take everything Lucario could do. It literally had nothing to do with what I was discussing.
You asked how the bannings affected mega venusaur, so I answered on how I think it got easier, I'm just hsaring my opinion on the subject at hand, if it's incorrect to the subjectJust notify me and I can delete the post in a couple of moments
I know what you mean but it doesnt realy apply here imo. Its not like the meta is going to shift heavily towards Psychic and Flying types in the form that more of them become viable. At most some of the pokes that used to beat venu will become a little more popular and its not like they havent been used before the ban, stuff like Pinsir and Talonflame were all over the place from the beginning. I dont see any new checks/counters to venu come up because of the banns.
It really does, for the majority of games I have played I have only seen a mega pinsir recently. Not mega mawile or anything else. Don't get me wrong, megasaur is a great wall with amazing bulk, but if you don't have a solid wall to mega pinsir or you don't have rocks up, it will be hard for megasaur to do some tanking and staying in.
I think we should wait for official statistics before making such judgements. I ve been running into mega pinsirs all the time long before the bans so thats nothing new for me. I mean if the usage numbers for pinsir or other venu counters realy rise significantly we can still think about demoting venu but i somewhat doubt that will happen.
Yeah... I don't think venusaur is very versatile. Let's face it - it's primarily a wall, if not only a wall with only one main moveset consisting of giga drain, sludge bomb, recovery, and a final filler move (leech seed, EQ, hp fire, sleep powder). There isn't much variation, and the SD set is a gimmick at best. Not even, cause it's probably used 0% of the time - more like theory.
It's not as one dimensional as say Mega-Y or Mega Pinsir (who can run feint if you're trying to e-speed), but it's not far off either.
Venusaur is by far one of the most versatile Megas out there actually. A common set may be the 252HP/252SpAtk modest set. Either physical or special wall variants are insane as well. I mean, he seriously hits hard enough even without investment to put some sweepers back into their pokeballs. Which is a reason he is S rank and will probably stay there for quite some time, until the meta game moves to a position where he isn't nearly as useful.
But that aside, with M-Luc and Gene gone, I think some rising stars may be Tyranitar, Terrakion, Mamoswine and even Heatran. With less steel, fighting and bug running around these guys may see more time to shine on teams and even see more usage altogether.
I'd like to disagree.
While you do bring up a good point about the over dominant set being wall you have to remember that usage does not completely DIRECTLY connect with viability. Yes wall venu is amazing, but it can still run other sets, Further amount of play testing shows how effective All out 3 attacks mega venu can be (it's even the first set on honko calc) and I would like to coment about the SD set being a gimmick: I think that being able to deal with the best physical walls in OU right now (Mega venu himself and rotom-w) is quite a feature, especially since you can +6 up and EQ other mega venu while they cannot touch you for very much. Gliscor and landorus T also just die sorta:
(full atk SD)+1 252+ Atk Mega Venusaur Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 294-346 (76.9 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 163-193 (44.7 - 53%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO
(variation: bulky SD)+1 44+ Atk Mega Venusaur Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 243-286 (63.6 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 212 Def Mega Venusaur: 138-163 (37.9 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
gliscor:
+2 252+ Atk Mega Venusaur Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 232-274 (65.5 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 87-103 (23.9 - 28.2%) -- 95.5% chance to 4HKO
+2 44+ Atk Mega Venusaur Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 192-226 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 212 Def Mega Venusaur: 73-87 (20 - 23.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
others:
252+ Atk Mega Aggron Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 212 Def Mega Venusaur: 108-127 (29.6 - 34.8%) -- 12.2% chance to 3HKO
+4 44+ Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 177-208 (51.4 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mega Aggron Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 127-151 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 144-169 (41.8 - 49.1%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mega Venusaur Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 256-302 (36.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+
+2 252+ Atk Mega Venusaur Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 709-835 (100.7 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
...
and there's more walls mega venusaur can demonstrate it's worth against however:
There's one huge thing about set up and offensive venusaur you're missing: it threatens stall due to being immune to toxic, having access to threatening attacking stats (100/122), having good bulk to tank stall's pitiful attempts to chip at it (especially bulky SD) and access to a movepool of strong things like KNOCK OFF, earthquake, leaf storm and power whip. Mega Venusaur's offensive and defensive capabilities are, dare I say it, top notch and should not be ignored, remember, there's 2 sides to a pokemon, offensive and defensive, and mega venu does a good job at both of them.
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I agree. Even if Lucario ban causes more usage of Mega Pinsir or Talonflame, Venusaur would still technically fall under the S Rank Criteria of being able to wall/check most competition.
We won't know that. I myself want to try out AV/LO future sight reuniclus. The meta will change - keep in mine we are not even 6 months into gen6, and the fact that we only just banned 2 very constraining pokemon. Remember celebi only came to prominence in the final stretch of gen5.
I'm inclined to believe the venusaur train will slow down and drop to A+, but perhaps we'll just have to wait and see.
I think otherwise all S and A+ are where they should be... perhaps charY can move down but perhaps not. Does anyone else think mega-scizor should be A+?
What? No. Mega Venusaur's place in the metagame doesn't change. The reason Celebi wasn't noticed was because the public eye is not very good at noticing good things like gen 5 latias and gen 5 celebi, heck celebi was great early BW1 too, it could switchin on terraks CC, even before that excadrills EQ with little to no fear and it was greeat at dealing with kingdra pre drizzle swsw ban, And you're forgetting celebi's final usage amount non 1850 was still only around #40 in OU at the end of BW2, the public ladder is not good at gaining usage for not so obvious threats like mega saur. The thing about bans changing the meta is that , they only negativity impact the certain pokemon if it's the key reason that pokemon succeed. Like lets say somebody found a perfect niche excadrill counter early gen 5 and it is was banned then the pokemon sucked. Mega Venusaur is good with and without the monstrous threats that recently got banned, it's not like talonflame isn't the most common thing ever. Usage does not decide a metagame or viability directly, usage decides TRENDS that MAY effect the metagame or viability. SO unless every psychic and flying type or anti-mega venu goes to S ran and they all become super good and trending, I doubt mega venu's stance in the metagame will change (damn if that was aegislash I was talking about I could have made a really cool pun :c).
More on Mega venusaur, I feel as if many people are being illogical about the recent bannings effecting mega venusaur: It's like saying Garchomp would move to B+ rank if Rotom-W(something that annoys it, the mega luke of chomps world) and Haxorus(something it beats the genesect of chomps world you could say) were banned, Like, what? Until we see CLEAR changes in the metagame that make mega venusaur actually less viable for some reason that spawns out of the recent bans, I see no reason why it should be dropped
Look back in the thread I myself and another amount of people asked for a S rank garchomp a lot earlier (post gengar and post-khan I think)in the thread, would it be possible to pick up the argument again? if so:
I'm loving this so far based ninja :], but here are some of the things I'd like to comment on:
Garchomp to S Rank
I already had thoughts on this on gen V so I guess I'll use some of my ideas from then: Garchomp is probably the most solid (stat wise) pokemon in OU bar shit like Kyurem B, it has awesome bulk, only facing competition in raw bulk from Kyurem B and lolzygarde as a dragon, it's 130 attack with it's amazing STAB coupled with Swords Dance really makes it hard to switch into, it has one of the best speed tiers in XY OU *for something that has that bulk and power*, letting it revenge a lot of stuff with it's scarf sets and even banded sets. .It has 2 fantastic lure sets in: yache and haban SD chomp. Which beat most ways of revenging it, and it's bulk lets it run both a lead set and an subsalac set. While fairies may have fucked salamence and maybe even dragonite, Gachomp can remain near unscathed. Heck the biggest nerf to it this gen was actually the fucking rain nerf! Now the aqua tail sets are going to either run LO more often or use damp rock on politoed support or scrap politoed/rain altogether. The only 3 true counters to this thing (togekiss, skarm and bronzong) are smashed by the aqua tail set, which now can use it's badass new mega form which I will cover later:
Calcs
*Outside of rain calcs*
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 147-174 (44 - 52%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 266-315 (71.1 - 84.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 191-225 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 234-276 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 166-196 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 156-184 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 212-252 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 179-211 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 250-295 (66.8 - 78.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 152-179 (45.5 - 53.5%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 171-202 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 275-324 (73.5 - 86.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 196-231 (52.4 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(I honestly believe mega chomp should always be adamant if it's going to SD because it's a great way to abuse the power it was given while saying fuck you to the sped tier the mega puts it in, but I put in jolly calcs because that fact is very debetable)
*Inside of rain calcs*
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss in Rain: 294-346 (78.6 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss in Rain: 268-316 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong in Rain: 234-276 (69.2 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong in Rain: 257-303 (76 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 207-244 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 227-268 (67.9 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 170-201 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong in Rain: 192-226 (56.8 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss in Rain: 308-363 (82.3 - 97%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss in Rain: 220-259 (58.8 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(left out LO on regular chomp in inside rain calcs because I doubt people would run LO when they have rain, because they could just run a resist berry and be even more check resistant)
This lets garchomp like previously stated, smash it's counters. And if chomp wasn't strong enough, it got a freakin mega! which allows it to run mixed sets, bulky SR sets, wallbreaker, and wall sets even better! all in the exchange for an item slot. The only way to beat this beast is to revenge it with fast dragon or ice moves(or ice shard) and hope it doesn't have a resist berry, Overall garchomp is just awesome and deserves one of these 2 ranks. I also thing mega g. should be in the same rank as I believe seperate ranks in terms of megas should only be reserved form egas like lucario or charX who work like 9x differently or are 9x better than their base form, but that's just imo.
<SOME RANDOM QUOTE I WAS REPLYING TO SAYING CHOMP WASN'T WORTHY>
Let me tell you the amount of checks and counters of the 3 'good' offensive sweeping chomp variations, not even the mega form
Base/Original Set: SD aqua tail chomp in the rain
Yache Chomp:
Checks: latis & scarf dragons
counters: I'll leave that one for the end of the 2nd set since their power level is the same
Haban Chomp:
Checks: strong ice shards, weavile
Counters:
*Inside of rain calcs*
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 170-201 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong in Rain: 192-226 (56.8 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss in Rain: 308-363 (82.3 - 97%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss in Rain: 220-259 (58.8 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Life Orb variation outside of rain:
Checks: Ice Shards, Scarf Dragons, Weavile & the latis
Counters:
*Outside of rain calcs*
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 147-174 (44 - 52%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 266-315 (71.1 - 84.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 191-225 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 234-276 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 166-196 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Overall, this is just a weak argument imo, it has no counters, it can just switch an item and it losses/gains a whole new group of checks, and overall, it's good. Whether it be Setting up SR, revenging, banded powerhousing, SD sweeping or walling stuff, garchomp is just really hard to stop from doing what it wants for it's team.
I know these arguments of mine have flaws and I was a bit rude and inconsiderate in the past making these arguments and it may seem like I'm just slapping calcs, but if anybody wants to pick this up, I'd love to have a debate, I'm not even 100% sure myself now
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