I'm not sure about normal Garchomp, but if Mega Chomp moves up Kyube really should too. They're both dragon type wall breakers with mediocre speed, Kyube can use a boosting item while Chomp can use SD, Kyube doesn't take up the mega slot, they come out really close to equal in any comparison. I'm not sure if either needs to go to S, but they're so similar that if one goes, the other should too.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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Mega Venusaur (Tank version mainly) vs Top threats
Aegislash: Physical SD Aegislash can be stalled by Leech Seed. Mixed Aegislash with Shadow Ball and Aegislash with Iron Head/Shadow Claw ca be a problem. Generally wins with Earthquake.
Charizard (mega-y): Counter of the Wall version, good check of the Tank version. Only risk Sludge Bomb.
Charizard (mega-X). Abbit worse because his lower special defense but can DD at more of 70% and destroy it with DFlare Blitz. Not counter because Sludge Bomb/Earthquake.
Mega Pinsir: Return OHKO. It can't switch on a Sludge Bomb.
A+ Rank:
Deoxys-S It's faster (with 180 Base Speed), can afford to have Modest nature and with them risk an OHKO with Psycho Boost. Mega Venusaur can OHKO Deoxys with Sludge Bomb
Garchomp Giga Drain can't 2HKO Garchomp while garchmp can 2HKo with Outrage. Venusaur handles "well" the Scarf version without Outrage; the SD version are another story.
Mega Garchomp For Mega Venusaur Mega-evolving Garchomp is worse because the Mega usually ran Adamant nature and can have HP EVs. EQ 2HKO.
Heatran Can be stalled by Leech Seed. If they lack that, Venusaur has to run Earthquake and be sure that heatran doesn't have a "Air Balloon". If the verison of Heatran is a tank, it actually loses
Kyurem-B Don't even try taking Outrage (2HKo). A great check. A power Herb Freeze shock clearly OHKO Mega Venusaur (ignoring Thick Fat in the process).
Landorus-I It can't take two Psychics and Earth power. Giga Drain has a chance of 2HKo, though.
Landorus-T 50/50. If Venusaur sleeps landorus, it go well. If ti doesn't, good luck.
Manaphy A great counter at +0. Better that almost any grass type around.
Rotom-W Mega venusaur counters Rotom-W entirely. Hydro Pump doesn't do even 20% to the tank version. When Mega Venu takes 10% from Volt Switching could be a counter because has to switch. Giga Drain 2HKO. Almost any Grass type with acceptable Special Defense is a counter of Rotom-W.
Talonflame It clearly wins with Brave Bird. A great check (Sludge Bomb 2HKO)
Thundurus-I Other pokemon countered by Mega venusaur Sludge Bomb 2HKO. Nasty Pot Thundy can 3HkO at +2!!!!
A Rank:
Azumarill Counter given that Sludge Bomb does min 87% and Azumarill can't OHKO Mega Venusaur at +6.
Bisharp Normalyy loses but can win with EQ in his moveset. Risk a +`2 Sucker Punch/Iron head
Conkeldurr Venusaur does great to it given how weak are his attacks to him. Sludge Bomb 3HKO and Giga Drain recover a lot.
Deoxys-D Normally it wins at the end but it doesn't mean that has the easiest poke to throw around.
Dragonite Depends of Stealth Rocks literally. If they are up Sludge Bomb 2HKO, if they aren't it can set up a Dragon Dance. Risk the attack Outrage.
Excadrill Literally 50/50. Earthquake can 2HKo but Giga Drain 2HKOs.
Gengar A great check. The priblem that Sludge Bomb from gengar can only 3HKO. With Life Orb/Specs the reuslt is better.
Greninja A pokemon that is countered by Mega Venusaur. Nine of the attack can 2Hko, Sludge Bomb and Giga Drain 2HKO.
Gyarados Almsot a counter given that has to set up DD before venusaur is really a set.
Mega Gyarados Even better given that Giga Drain 2HKO. Not a full counter because the possibly of +1.
Keldeo Mega Venusaur counter Keldeo perfectly. A surprise HP Flying/Psychic is not doing anything to him.
Latios Almost a counter again, the problem is from Latios side. Psyshock are 50% of OHKO and it's guaranteed to be faster, no matter what he tries. Mega Venusaur has to hope that Psyshock is not named Psychic
Latias Depends of the HPs and Psyshock. If they lack either or both of this, it can win if not, clealry loses to latias 1 vs 1.
Mamoswine Mega Venusaur is a counter of Mamoswine because EQ can't 2HKO without CB while Giga Drain can activate the Sash.
Mandibuzz 50/50 The battle is now starting tio have a stall war. The one with a crit wins given that mandibuzz never runs Brave Bird.
Mawile (Mega) Meg mawile counter ;Mega Venusaur by countering him with Iron head (2HKO) Also has a free SD against him.
Scizor It can be stalled with leech Seed and Synthesis. It can U-turn away successfully. CB Bullet Punch 3HKo though
Mega Scizor If ti has a Swords Dance, it loses because it can't tsake Scizor attacks at +2. Need HP fire to win.
Terrakion One of the few (almost) counters of that beast. Stone Edge 3HKOs at best and has the chance of oh-miss. CC makes sure that Giga Drain will OHKO.
Tyranitar Normally Venusaur wins but it's literally 50/50 in sandstorm.
Mega Tyranitar The increased Special defense gives the advanbtage to mega tyranitar now.
Clefable Mega Venusaur is faster and can 2HkO with Sludge Bomb, even bypassing one Cosmic Power.
Skarmory The opposite thing. Brave Bird 2HKO. HP fire 2hkoes but has issues having it int he moveset.
Against lower threats
B+
It wins vs Chansey tanks to Leech Seed if not, it loses to Seismic Toss and constant recovery. Ferrothorn vs Mega Venusaur is a pure stall battle unless Gyro Ball (and then, Ferrothorn wins). Mega Gardevoir is literally 50/50 depending if Sludge Bomb OHK (Psychic surprisingly doesn't). Mvenusaur generally wins against Gliscor because is a Posion type. Hippowdon is a no problem for him. Mega medicham is not a full counter of MVenusaur (defenses) but a great check with psycho Cut (Zen headbutt guarantee the OHKO). Politoed is an easy target for him specially now that offensive Politoed is non-existant 8and rain are not that hindering now). Togekiss is literally 50/50 (the funny part is that Normal-type Togekiss would be better against Mega Venusaur). Zapdos can be stalled with Leech Sedd it does well, but Venusaur clearly doesn't defeat Zapdos easily.
B rank (No details)
Clearly wins
Mega Blastoise, Diggersby, Suicune, Sylveon, Zygarde
Clearly loses
Alakazam (and his Mega), Jirachi, Mew with psychic, Tornadus-T.
The rest of the B tier.
B- rank (No0 details): Win vs Brellom, Jellicent and Sharpedo. Loses vs Mega Aggron, AV Goodra, Klefki** and Staraptor*. Depdns for the rest.
C+ rank. Wins vs Mega Abomasnow, Crawdaunt, Dugtrio, Gourgeist, Krookodile, Tangrowth and Vaporeon. It loses vs Aerial Ace Aerodactyl, Celebi, Darmanitan*, Espeon*, Kyurem and Ninetales. Iffy about everything else.
C rank it wins vs Kabutops, Quagsire, Rhyperior, Smeargle. It lsoes vs Azelf*, Crobat, Mega Houndoom, Moltres, Noivern*, And Snorlax. Depends of everything else.
The rest: Lose against Meloetta and Honckrow* Wins against Cloyster, Ludicolo, Rotom-C, Shaymin and Whismicott**. Iffy about the rest (Note: Mawile is usually in dedicated BP team, the rest of team uses the superior Mega Mawile)
This is all. And the pokemon with * means pokemon of lower tiers that can defeat 1vs1 but aren't counters because the threat of Sludge Bomb or Giga Drain(they are usually frail). Threats with ** means that are pranksters user whose main use is to be annoying to deal. And the performance shows how well it does against permofing with those sweepers. With reslts of opposite direction. Whismicott dies the moment Sludge Bomb touches; Klefki can d his tricks almost always.
I considered a standard set of Sludge Bomb/Giga Drain/Synthesis and Leech Seed or Sleep powder for the calculations.
I found relative larg list of surprises to the usual set. Many of them are deal with HP Fire (but warning, 60 BP now) and Earthquake (it's physical)
Aegislash: Physical SD Aegislash can be stalled by Leech Seed. Mixed Aegislash with Shadow Ball and Aegislash with Iron Head/Shadow Claw ca be a problem. Generally wins with Earthquake.
Charizard (mega-y): Counter of the Wall version, good check of the Tank version. Only risk Sludge Bomb.
Charizard (mega-X). Abbit worse because his lower special defense but can DD at more of 70% and destroy it with DFlare Blitz. Not counter because Sludge Bomb/Earthquake.
Mega Pinsir: Return OHKO. It can't switch on a Sludge Bomb.
A+ Rank:
Deoxys-S It's faster (with 180 Base Speed), can afford to have Modest nature and with them risk an OHKO with Psycho Boost. Mega Venusaur can OHKO Deoxys with Sludge Bomb
Garchomp Giga Drain can't 2HKO Garchomp while garchmp can 2HKo with Outrage. Venusaur handles "well" the Scarf version without Outrage; the SD version are another story.
Mega Garchomp For Mega Venusaur Mega-evolving Garchomp is worse because the Mega usually ran Adamant nature and can have HP EVs. EQ 2HKO.
Heatran Can be stalled by Leech Seed. If they lack that, Venusaur has to run Earthquake and be sure that heatran doesn't have a "Air Balloon". If the verison of Heatran is a tank, it actually loses
Kyurem-B Don't even try taking Outrage (2HKo). A great check. A power Herb Freeze shock clearly OHKO Mega Venusaur (ignoring Thick Fat in the process).
Landorus-I It can't take two Psychics and Earth power. Giga Drain has a chance of 2HKo, though.
Landorus-T 50/50. If Venusaur sleeps landorus, it go well. If ti doesn't, good luck.
Manaphy A great counter at +0. Better that almost any grass type around.
Rotom-W Mega venusaur counters Rotom-W entirely. Hydro Pump doesn't do even 20% to the tank version. When Mega Venu takes 10% from Volt Switching could be a counter because has to switch. Giga Drain 2HKO. Almost any Grass type with acceptable Special Defense is a counter of Rotom-W.
Talonflame It clearly wins with Brave Bird. A great check (Sludge Bomb 2HKO)
Thundurus-I Other pokemon countered by Mega venusaur Sludge Bomb 2HKO. Nasty Pot Thundy can 3HkO at +2!!!!
A Rank:
Azumarill Counter given that Sludge Bomb does min 87% and Azumarill can't OHKO Mega Venusaur at +6.
Bisharp Normalyy loses but can win with EQ in his moveset. Risk a +`2 Sucker Punch/Iron head
Conkeldurr Venusaur does great to it given how weak are his attacks to him. Sludge Bomb 3HKO and Giga Drain recover a lot.
Deoxys-D Normally it wins at the end but it doesn't mean that has the easiest poke to throw around.
Dragonite Depends of Stealth Rocks literally. If they are up Sludge Bomb 2HKO, if they aren't it can set up a Dragon Dance. Risk the attack Outrage.
Excadrill Literally 50/50. Earthquake can 2HKo but Giga Drain 2HKOs.
Gengar A great check. The priblem that Sludge Bomb from gengar can only 3HKO. With Life Orb/Specs the reuslt is better.
Greninja A pokemon that is countered by Mega Venusaur. Nine of the attack can 2Hko, Sludge Bomb and Giga Drain 2HKO.
Gyarados Almsot a counter given that has to set up DD before venusaur is really a set.
Mega Gyarados Even better given that Giga Drain 2HKO. Not a full counter because the possibly of +1.
Keldeo Mega Venusaur counter Keldeo perfectly. A surprise HP Flying/Psychic is not doing anything to him.
Latios Almost a counter again, the problem is from Latios side. Psyshock are 50% of OHKO and it's guaranteed to be faster, no matter what he tries. Mega Venusaur has to hope that Psyshock is not named Psychic
Latias Depends of the HPs and Psyshock. If they lack either or both of this, it can win if not, clealry loses to latias 1 vs 1.
Mamoswine Mega Venusaur is a counter of Mamoswine because EQ can't 2HKO without CB while Giga Drain can activate the Sash.
Mandibuzz 50/50 The battle is now starting tio have a stall war. The one with a crit wins given that mandibuzz never runs Brave Bird.
Mawile (Mega) Meg mawile counter ;Mega Venusaur by countering him with Iron head (2HKO) Also has a free SD against him.
Scizor It can be stalled with leech Seed and Synthesis. It can U-turn away successfully. CB Bullet Punch 3HKo though
Mega Scizor If ti has a Swords Dance, it loses because it can't tsake Scizor attacks at +2. Need HP fire to win.
Terrakion One of the few (almost) counters of that beast. Stone Edge 3HKOs at best and has the chance of oh-miss. CC makes sure that Giga Drain will OHKO.
Tyranitar Normally Venusaur wins but it's literally 50/50 in sandstorm.
Mega Tyranitar The increased Special defense gives the advanbtage to mega tyranitar now.
Clefable Mega Venusaur is faster and can 2HkO with Sludge Bomb, even bypassing one Cosmic Power.
Skarmory The opposite thing. Brave Bird 2HKO. HP fire 2hkoes but has issues having it int he moveset.
Against lower threats
B+
It wins vs Chansey tanks to Leech Seed if not, it loses to Seismic Toss and constant recovery. Ferrothorn vs Mega Venusaur is a pure stall battle unless Gyro Ball (and then, Ferrothorn wins). Mega Gardevoir is literally 50/50 depending if Sludge Bomb OHK (Psychic surprisingly doesn't). Mvenusaur generally wins against Gliscor because is a Posion type. Hippowdon is a no problem for him. Mega medicham is not a full counter of MVenusaur (defenses) but a great check with psycho Cut (Zen headbutt guarantee the OHKO). Politoed is an easy target for him specially now that offensive Politoed is non-existant 8and rain are not that hindering now). Togekiss is literally 50/50 (the funny part is that Normal-type Togekiss would be better against Mega Venusaur). Zapdos can be stalled with Leech Sedd it does well, but Venusaur clearly doesn't defeat Zapdos easily.
B rank (No details)
Clearly wins
Mega Blastoise, Diggersby, Suicune, Sylveon, Zygarde
Clearly loses
Alakazam (and his Mega), Jirachi, Mew with psychic, Tornadus-T.
The rest of the B tier.
B- rank (No0 details): Win vs Brellom, Jellicent and Sharpedo. Loses vs Mega Aggron, AV Goodra, Klefki** and Staraptor*. Depdns for the rest.
C+ rank. Wins vs Mega Abomasnow, Crawdaunt, Dugtrio, Gourgeist, Krookodile, Tangrowth and Vaporeon. It loses vs Aerial Ace Aerodactyl, Celebi, Darmanitan*, Espeon*, Kyurem and Ninetales. Iffy about everything else.
C rank it wins vs Kabutops, Quagsire, Rhyperior, Smeargle. It lsoes vs Azelf*, Crobat, Mega Houndoom, Moltres, Noivern*, And Snorlax. Depends of everything else.
The rest: Lose against Meloetta and Honckrow* Wins against Cloyster, Ludicolo, Rotom-C, Shaymin and Whismicott**. Iffy about the rest (Note: Mawile is usually in dedicated BP team, the rest of team uses the superior Mega Mawile)
This is all. And the pokemon with * means pokemon of lower tiers that can defeat 1vs1 but aren't counters because the threat of Sludge Bomb or Giga Drain(they are usually frail). Threats with ** means that are pranksters user whose main use is to be annoying to deal. And the performance shows how well it does against permofing with those sweepers. With reslts of opposite direction. Whismicott dies the moment Sludge Bomb touches; Klefki can d his tricks almost always.
I considered a standard set of Sludge Bomb/Giga Drain/Synthesis and Leech Seed or Sleep powder for the calculations.
I found relative larg list of surprises to the usual set. Many of them are deal with HP Fire (but warning, 60 BP now) and Earthquake (it's physical)
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I'm going to be a bit arbitrary here. I haven't thoroughly read everyone's argument.
Looking at the pokemon that are currently in the S rank, what Charizard-Y lacks that Charizard-X and Mega Pinsir have is speed. Charizard-X has Dragon Dance and Pinsir has strong priority in Quick Attack and a pretty good 105 base Speed to spam Return. Aegislash and Mega Venusaur have amazing typing and bulk to tank opponents. Charizard-Y does not have the physical bulk or the proper speed to be difficult to defeat. A faster pokemon with Rock or Electric attacks like Garchomp and Infernape can take it down. I don't want to move it down to A+, but I only speak with logic.
I will say, however, that I have not faced Charizard-Y all that much, so people who have more experience with this pokemon have to decide how hard it is to defeat it. Aegislash, Mega Venusaur, and the other two (which I admit I have not faced either) are all difficult to defeat.
So those of you who have experience with these Pokemon should decide based on how difficult you have had facing it and how strong it has been on your team. I'm simply theorymoning.
I will get back to Heatran and Rotom-W later based on what I said.
Looking at the pokemon that are currently in the S rank, what Charizard-Y lacks that Charizard-X and Mega Pinsir have is speed. Charizard-X has Dragon Dance and Pinsir has strong priority in Quick Attack and a pretty good 105 base Speed to spam Return. Aegislash and Mega Venusaur have amazing typing and bulk to tank opponents. Charizard-Y does not have the physical bulk or the proper speed to be difficult to defeat. A faster pokemon with Rock or Electric attacks like Garchomp and Infernape can take it down. I don't want to move it down to A+, but I only speak with logic.
I will say, however, that I have not faced Charizard-Y all that much, so people who have more experience with this pokemon have to decide how hard it is to defeat it. Aegislash, Mega Venusaur, and the other two (which I admit I have not faced either) are all difficult to defeat.
So those of you who have experience with these Pokemon should decide based on how difficult you have had facing it and how strong it has been on your team. I'm simply theorymoning.
I will get back to Heatran and Rotom-W later based on what I said.
....Speed is your argument for it to be dropped? While I will say the Base 100 Speed Tier is no longer anywhere near as good as it once was (which seems two generations ago now. Damn I'm old) but he works plenty fine without it. Would it be nice? Sure it could be, all ya would have to do is just add Flame Charge or even run the mixed Char Y sets that are now or have been discussed in the Charizard thread. Comments like people saying it can be checked and calcs using Air Slash of all things are what piss me off the most. Sure it can be checked, but it fufills the S Rank criteria without effort, thus solidifying its position.
Sorry if that came off towards you as annoyed, but its getting silly. I truly detest the idea of it being moved down as it has no reason to be moved down at all. If anything, I love the idea of having them both listed under Charizard himself, but again, that seems like something for another time.
Don't worry about it. But again, I did say that my argument was arbitrary, so I could be totally off. I did mention bulk in tandem with speed, because Aegislash and Mega-Venusaur are not fast at all. Base 100 is good, but it's not fabulously high anymore. I don't think slapping Flame Charge on Charizard-Y is really worth it, too.
I'm trying to get people who have faced or used Charizard-Y to tell me how well it performed against most teams. Is it very difficult to take down, or is it manageable? I don't know this. "Live and learn." That's honestly the best way to determine how effective a pokemon is. Those with experience with Mega Charizard-Y know how strong it is.
Char-Y can run Flame Charge. Also, it can bluff Dragon Dance to trick in the wrong counter.
Also, Flame Charge, under sun, from a base 104 attack against a mon that doesn't see a physical attack coming? (*ahem Blissey*) Dude, it's a great idea.
0 Atk Mega Charizard Y Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Blissey in Sun: 345-406 (48.3 - 56.8%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not too shabby
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Because of the rule that you are only allowed to have one mega on your team, I think there is a good reason to rank megas separately from their base form. Let's say you have already decided that you want to use Mega Pinsir on your team. Then there is absolutely no reason to even consider using Charizard at all because it is useless without one of its mega forms. However, there is still a reason to consider using Garchomp on your team because regular Garchomp is good in OU. For this reason, I think megas need to be ranked separately from their base forms to tell people not to bother using something if they do not want to commit their mega slot to it.
As for the Charizard forms, should they be considered as completely independent entities or should the potential threat of one be considered in ranking the other? Someone with authority on the matter should clarify so that we all know what the criteria is for which to base our opinions on.
I understand man, but I am just more citing somethings I saw. The Flame Charge option is actually somewhat good as it isn't exactly horrendous with it getting a boost in power this gen while also having STAB+Drought boost, but its just a different beat for each person. There are many things that Char Y can do that Char X wishes it could do, and vice versa. One being immediate power, the other lasting (if only in theory cause due to practice, they neither care as all seem to die by the fire dragons).
Y is one who can pretty much only be checked in the best cases while being countered by the same bane of all Special Attackers; the blobs of death (be it Goodra, Chansey, or Blissey). Is it manageable? If you manage to get that counter in and keep stealth rock up the entire match sure. Yet SR is easier to get off now and becomes more of a hassle to put back up as it can essentially become free turns, and those Blobs wont enjoy having to kill all momentum to just jump in and take a Sun boosted STAB attack. It is a great pokemon that destroy significant portions of the metagame with minimal support (Defog, Spinner, Strong Physical attacker, Knock Off...that's not much to ask for really if at all), supports others by giving sun/destroying threats that could harm those said guys, and has slight versatility as it can choose to be all out special destroy, or be able to destroy opposing fire types and usual special walls, you get the gist by now.
He deserves S Rank more so than under initial appearance, and it is easy to misjudge it, but it is deserving of it in all regards.
EDIT: Message 150! Yeah!!!
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I dunno. Really shouldn't be a standard move. It doesn't help that it has a small case of 4MSS
But if it works, then sure. I don't mind it staying in S; I'm not taking a side strongly. Just wanted to give some more thought.
I think treating the item (and thus the mega) as a seperate pokemon as a good idea. Charizard without sun and solar power is nothing in OU, and thus, would still be NU (maybe higher thanks to defog), however his mega forms... definitely OU material.
It definitely isn't standard. Earthquake/Focus Punch are usually considered over it. See, unlike most pokemon, Char-Y is REALLY comfortable in the speed tier it's in, because everything it can reliably nuke is slower than it, bar choice scarf, of course. The only reason you would run a speed boosting move is if you were really desperate to sweep with charizard, in which case, Char X is your mon.
How? It doesn't need to be running fifty different moves at all. With Fire Blast, Solar Beam, and Earthquake/Focus Blast, he hits everything he would ever want to. Flame Charge sets are a different beast altogether as it attempts to make him a sweeper rather than the largest nuke this side of OU meaning different things would be taken into account, but how does the standard Char Y have 4MSS?
EDIT: Oh, sorta got beat to it. dang it Dart XD
Ok. I'll have to get to know Mega Charizard-Y better then.
I must be wrong. I think I got it confused with Char X or something. I don't know. This isn't my strongest argument.
Dragon Pulse is completely unnecessary: It hits only one type super effectively, and a resisted fire blast still hits harder than a neutral Dragon Pulse. I'd recommend earthquake to get past heatran.
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To be honest, the only change I'd agree with making
I hope you mean Focus Blast... XD
Anyway, would anyone else, before I post my reasoning, agree that Rotom-W should be S ranked?
Dragon Pulse is
If you want Rotom-W to move up, post your arguments. I don't know how much support the idea has, but it's not so ridiculous that you shouldn't even bother or anything like that. I would personally leave Rotom-W in A+ because it's so easy to wear down over the course of a battle, but it's still incredibly threatening to switch in to and checks or counters a ton of top-tier threats, so I dunno, I wouldn't have a huge problem with it going to S.
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No dude, I really meant Focus Punch, it sounds crazy, but on a predicted Heatran/Blissey switch, it does decent damage.
What 4MSS? He has 3 moves he has to use and one slot where he could run damn HP Electric if he so desires.
Fire Blast under sun: 110*1.5*1.5=247.5/2=123 basepower on a resisted hit
Dragon Pulse hits 140 on a SE move.
To give you an idea, that Fire Blast is stronger than Mega Luke's CC.
So, just to show you the raw power on it against the dragons of OU.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite in Sun: 78-92 (24 - 28.3%) -- 97.8% chance to 4HKO Okay, not exactly too powerf-oh multiscale. If it's broken...
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite in Sun: 156-185 (48.1 - 57%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Sun: 144-171 (47.6 - 56.6%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Sun: 126-148 (41.7 - 49%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence in Sun: 189-222 (57 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp in Sun: 180-212 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp in Sun: 164-193 (45.8 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
Yeah, you get the idea. Dragon Pulse fails to OHKO any of these mons, so it isn't an issue at all. Yes, it fails to OHKO even Salamence. It's not a must-have. Now, I'm not saying it's completely unviable, as it does give him a move that will always hit on them, but that's the beauty of him. He has a last moveslot where he can, and I repeat it, do whatever he wants. Hell, i've run substitute variants to great effect (on a team that got me to top 10 before the ELO hell system started, I used him. I'm really not that great a battler even)
And the final part, the most important note: He is a wallbreaker. He doesn't need to kill the mons he attacks, only severely damage them so that a teammate can utilize the hole in the opponent's team.
Interesting. In practice that seems pretty cool and funny to see a Blissey taking a Focus Punch to the face!
Do you mean Zard Y? Because running special moves isn't that great on Zard X. For Zard Y, I can kind of understand, but it seems it's a waste when you could gain recovery or coverage on Heatran.
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Okay, so I'd like to nominate Rotom-W for S rank. Based only on the definition,
Pokemon who can sweep significant portions of the metagame with little support: Rotom-W can effectively run a specs set to do hefty damage to a lot of pokemon. Hydro Pump hits very hard from a pokemon with 105 Special attack + specs, as do Thunderbolt and Volt switch.
Pokemon who can wall significant portions of the metagame with little support: This is the most obvious reason to rank Rotom-W S. Due to its ability, it effectively has 1 weakness, and one rare weakness at that. Its defensive stats of 50/107/107 are fantastic and allow it to take pretty much every non boosted attack in OU. Pokemon that it can't wall it can Volt Switch out to an appropriate counter, or burn them and proceed to wall them or switch out. Rotom can also use its bad HP to its benefit by using the sub-split method of recovery.
Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"): If a pokemon that can wall Rotom switches in, Rotom can volt switch out to a counter to that pokemon, and give its teammate a free turn of set up. Rotom can also burn switch ins to give its teammates free turns. Finally, Rotom can trick a choice item to a special wall that thinks it can come in for free, and cripple it for the rest of the match.
Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability: Rotom has many sets that it can always execute properly. These sets are: Choice specs, choice scarf, sub-split, physical wall + leftovers, special wall + leftovers, and chesto-rest.
If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths: All a team with Rotom needs is at least one member that can handle the following: Special grass types, Excadrill, Kyurem-B. Since most good teams, by nature, already have pokemon that can handle the aforementioned threats to Rotom-W, Rotom-W can fit on and severely benefit practically every team, and therefore I believe it deserves to be S ranked.
Dragon Pulse has 85 BP; its SE hits do 170, not 140.
I Agree. on Garchomp/Megachomp for S as it is incredibly versatile and has immense power.
Gotta love that fire blast, huh?
Also, the emphasized part, people rarely seem to get. Charizard is a wallbreaker, not a setup sweeper, which is why it isn't a good idea to worry too much about speed. And that's also why I suggested Earthquake/Focus Punch
Focus Punch is more risky, but more rewarding, look at these holes it punches into it's usual counters!
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 412-488 (101.9 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 214-252 (55.4 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 406-478 (56.8 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 296-350 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 214-252 (55.4 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 406-478 (56.8 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 296-350 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Earthquake is more reliable and easier to count on, but provides these results,
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 99-117 (14 - 16.6%) -- possible 7HKO
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 136-160 (19 - 22.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 284-336 (73.5 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 138-164 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 106-126 (26.2 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 316-372 (78.2 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 136-160 (19 - 22.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 284-336 (73.5 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 138-164 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 106-126 (26.2 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 316-372 (78.2 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But I digress.
Charizard is able to smack a lot of, if not all the pokemon in OU back to the pokeball they dared to challenge him from (well, not literally, roar/dragon tail are atrocious, if even possible on this guy)
EDIT: oh yeah, my point is, he should stay S-Rank
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I know Dragon Pulse isn't necessarily the best attack for Zard y's last slot, just that it's a good option - I was replying to Finncent who said that it was completely unnecessary, which is not true.
*facepalm*
Yes, I meant Zard Y. Sorry about that.
Here's the thing with Dragon Pulse...
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 248-292 (69.2 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 108-128 (33.3 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 216-256 (66.6 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 200-236 (66.2 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 172-204 (56.9 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 236-278 (60.2 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Fire Blast outdamages Dragon Pulse)
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Noivern: 260-306 (83.6 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 108-128 (33.3 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 216-256 (66.6 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 200-236 (66.2 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 172-204 (56.9 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 236-278 (60.2 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Fire Blast outdamages Dragon Pulse)
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Noivern: 260-306 (83.6 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It still only net's 2HKO's and while you may argue "but it's more damage!" it's not worth it, because that move slot can go to something else, like Roost, or a physical attack to deal with special walls. Even will-o-wisp could arguably be a better move instead, or even sub
Okay so now that the two S rank monsters (Venu and Char Y respectively) have been agreed on to staying, lets move on to the guy who is asking for ua to promote a poke...
Overhyped-W (hmm, i seem so biased there) has a few flaws that make him susceptible to staying in A+ rank. He lacks a form of reliable recovery.
Does he have Chesto+Rest? Yes (seriously though, if that's your recovery, then that ain't right) but he loses that coveted Lefties to get a one-off, and is forced to stay asleep two turns after using rest the second time. Does it fix his toxic ailment? Sure, but he is set up bait at that point.
Then he gets Pain Split, and while a base 65 HP stat makes it usable to great extent, you will be forced in a predicament of having an opponent keep a low health poke just to give it more as you go for a crucial heal. Is Pain Split usable? Hell of a lot more than Chesto, but can get so played around.
Then you have that its susceptible to all forms of residual damage (bar spikes). Now residual damage is not a large argument by itself, but as it is taking lots of hits with no reliable way to get its health back, then it may be.
I may be wrong, but I do not believe it has earned S rank (22% usage be damned).
Overhyped-W (hmm, i seem so biased there) has a few flaws that make him susceptible to staying in A+ rank. He lacks a form of reliable recovery.
Does he have Chesto+Rest? Yes (seriously though, if that's your recovery, then that ain't right) but he loses that coveted Lefties to get a one-off, and is forced to stay asleep two turns after using rest the second time. Does it fix his toxic ailment? Sure, but he is set up bait at that point.
Then he gets Pain Split, and while a base 65 HP stat makes it usable to great extent, you will be forced in a predicament of having an opponent keep a low health poke just to give it more as you go for a crucial heal. Is Pain Split usable? Hell of a lot more than Chesto, but can get so played around.
Then you have that its susceptible to all forms of residual damage (bar spikes). Now residual damage is not a large argument by itself, but as it is taking lots of hits with no reliable way to get its health back, then it may be.
I may be wrong, but I do not believe it has earned S rank (22% usage be damned).
Dragon Pulse is a slot waste imo, Flare Blitz/Earthquake/Focus Blast are much better options to hit Blissey/Tyranitar/Heatran with decent damage. The only Dragons able to handle many Fire Blasts are Latias/Latios, If you play well predicting and forcing your opponent to send out Dragonite/Garchomp/Goodra to absorb a Fire Blast under sun you win, they can't recover and their walling is very limited imo, I must forgot some dragon btw.
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