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D/P tiers. (READ 1st and 2nd POST)

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Firestorm said:
I was just looking at the list of fully evolved Pokemon, and is there a reason Jolteon, Vaporeon, and Slaking aren't OU anymore? Jolteon in particular is actually overused in the sense of usage. Vaporeon does its job as well as it did before. Slaking I guess is kind of set up bait.
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FWIW, I've encountered Vaporeon far more often than the other two combined.

Just like the Gallade/Breloom discussion, it's a matter of what each person has faced.
 
Jolteon is greatly underated this gen and it can be potent due to its speed and sub passing abilities but the fact remains its just not seen often enough to be classifed as OU
 
Tyranitar- Agreeing that it should stay OU, the special def boost is not a concern because in gliscor and hippodown it still has two very effectivecounters that can switch in. On top of this their is still that fighting weakness which standards such as lucario and heracross take advantage of.

Cresellia(OU)- I am not too sure that this should stay in OU, i am under the belief that to remain in a tier there should be atleast a counter. A counter is classifed as being able to switch in. If you look at the counter list provided in the analysis section it lists Ttar,Weavile,Houndoom,Gengar as counters, but none of them can switch into the standard thunder wave as maybe with the exception of tar the speed drop ruins all of them and basically renders them useless due to their fragile nature.
There is predicition but the fact is cresellia has that much defence that healthy it can take their hits and still paralyse them, can you really consider something a counter when cresellia can and will render them completly useless whether they predict or not.
 
For anybody who wants to propose a BL metagame, it won't happen unless BL gets subdivided further, which I'm sure nobody wants to do. BL is horribly unbalanced because it's composed of things that are too strong for UU but suck in OU such as Entei, and OU Pokemon that are temporarily seeing little use, as in the Skarmory=>Magnezone=>Dugtrio=>Skarmory example.
 
Metagross also humilates Cresselia and it can't do anything to Blissey either, though Blissey can Toxic it or something similar. Celebi can Calm Mind up against it rather easily. Plus Thunder Wave Cresselia is harder to keep alive since Moonlight has PP/Sand Stream issues and with Rest/Sleep Talk that leaves room for a grand total of one attacking move.
 
The only things that'll really make Cressy run away are T-tar and Heracross. If T-Tar goes to Ubers, then Cressy's just seems to powerful to stay in OU.
 
Cresselia should stay OU. It's one of the few counters of Garchomp and Salamence. And a lot of other stuff...

Anyway, Jolteon should be OU, it has good speed and can easily pass Subs and berries. But it's not here that we should discuss it.
 
Well, I think Jolteon and Vaporeon are currently seeing much more use than Aerodactyl (who's OU). Guess it does all depend on personal experience.
 
DDX said:
The only things that'll really make Cressy run away are T-tar and Heracross. If T-Tar goes to Ubers, then Cressy's just seems to powerful to stay in OU.
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Need I mention the Steel/Psychic types (or heck, almost any Steel type)? They wall Cresselia very effectively, and Metagross threatens it.

EDIT: I know Cresselia's a defensive Pokemon, but it had to be mentioned (especially from my experiences with it; I use Cresselia frequently). :)
 
Why is TTar even being discussed still, when atleast two surefire counter in OU have been established.This is without even taking in the fact of how many standard fighting pokemon can exploit its fighting weakness.
 
I mentioned Mew not because it's similiar to Manaphy, but because it's simply not used at all in the Uber metagame.
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That could eventually change, Nasty Plot/BP Mew is just crippling even in the uber metagame. Partnered with Kyogre you can run the figures and even top level ubers would cream their pants over how fast they get run over.

The reason its rarely used is the availability simple as that.

Which would bring me back to the question of "how do you get it in with no recovery move and or damage"? You'll take some damage however small or large on the switch. While you tail glow the opponent get's to switch. Everyone and their mom has a choice scarf pokemon these days. It outspeeds Manaphy for the kill.
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If you ran the figures than you'd know the point is that if it Tail Glows on that switch Manaphy already has enough special attack to OHKO just about anything while OHKO'ing it back is near impossible.

For example on NO DEFENSE/HP Manaphy.
-CS Adamant 252 Heracross Megahorn is 70% MAX.
-CS Adamant 252 Garchomp Outrage is 75% MAX.

In return Manaphy OHKO's both on the counterattack which its almost guaranteed everytime and this is with extreme values that you'd almost never even see. This is with a TIMID Manaphy as well.

I don't even need to stress what kind of mayhem occurs if it was Modest and if I actually gave Manaphy a best scenario.
 
adman2 said:
Need I mention the Steel/Psychic types (or heck, almost any Steel type)? They wall Cresselia very effectively, and Metagross threatens it.

EDIT: I know Cresselia's a defensive Pokemon, but it had to be mentioned (especially from my experiences with it; I use Cresselia frequently). :)
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But see, that's the thing...Metagross doesn't really threaten it without an attack boost, seeing as how it's only physical Dark move is 40 base damage, which Cressy will just shrug off. Getting into wall battles isn't really relevant here, since walls generally won't do a ton of damage to each other anyway.
 
guys, the metagame will ebb and flow. there are many pokemon that aren't used now that could be widely used in about 3 months. when gsc first was coming together espeon and kingdra were EVERYWHERE. miltank was the heal beller of choice. then things changed. the metagame became more solidified and people realized that there weren't many good uses for espeon (remember, this is pre-growth/baton pass) and kingdra, and that blissey was better over miltank due to its incredible ability to special sponge.

i suspect that DP will be just like any other gen. Right now there are things we assume to be OU just because of stats/movepools, but as the metagame matures we may find that certain pokemon just don't have a use.

with that said, i pretty much agree with the tier listing that we came up with. i think that eventually snorlax will be ou, that's just a guess of mine. a stab'd selfdestruct in what is seemingly a fast-paced offensive gen will be very handy.
 
AlleyViper said:
FWIW, I've encountered Vaporeon far more often than the other two combined.

Just like the Gallade/Breloom discussion, it's a matter of what each person has faced.
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I agree with this(the vaporeon statement) I see ALOT of him ruinning around. ALmost no more jolteon/espeon/umbreon
 
Seriously, what Pokemon can take and STABed, super-effective Surf from say, a Suicune who Calm Minded twice and still able to fight back with almost the same power? Or from a Manaphy that Tail Glowed once?
A Pokemon like Tyranitar shouldn't be allowed in regular play at all.
 
DDX said:
But see, that's the thing...Metagross doesn't really threaten it without an attack boost, seeing as how it's only physical Dark move is 40 base damage, which Cressy will just shrug off. Getting into wall battles isn't really relevant here, since walls generally won't do a ton of damage to each other anyway.
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CB Meteor Mash coming from Metagross 2HKO's Cresselia, iirc. And the worst Cresselia can do is Thunder Wave Metagross, which won't really hurt it much.
 
Familiar Trainer said:
CB Meteor Mash coming from Metagross 2HKO's Cresselia, iirc. And the worst Cresselia can do is Thunder Wave Metagross, which won't really hurt it much.
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Just checked on Marriland...3HKO on Bold max/max, especially if you have Leftovers. So Cressy can just Calm Mind on the switch and sneak in a few more, then attack Meta's weaker Sp. Def with Ice Beam/Grass Knot for the eventual kill.
 
Manaphy is too good for OU.
A Random RainDance in your Team is enough to set up a Manaphy-Sweep.
Now imagine you build a Team around Manaphy?
A Rain Dance Team with Manaphy is just incredible...
Manaphy is Central of Strategy and if it faints -> Sacrifice Cress can bring back Manaphy for a 2nd Round ôO
 
The only thing of real importance is the Ubers discussion. That places the T-Tar as the most important. Celebi... I haven't seen one so :-p

Putting Gallade or Alakazam into OU doesn't change anything... really. You can use UU pokemon in OU and no one will complain. And Gallade/Alakazam will be banned in UU anyway seeing how at worst they're BL. Similarly, you can use Blissey in Ubers even if it is an OU pokemon.

Anyway, Manaphy is pretty scary, but I'd like to see it in debated uber for now. It has a significantly stronger case than T-Tar...
 
DDX said:
Just checked on Marriland...3HKO on Bold max/max, especially if you have Leftovers. So Cressy can just Calm Mind on the switch and sneak in a few more, then attack Meta's weaker Sp. Def with Ice Beam/Grass Knot for the eventual kill.
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2 or 3 Ice Beam/Grass Knot won't be killing standard CBGross, even after a few Calm Minds. Cresselia would be foolish to stay in after Thunder Wave/Reflecting.

Come to think of it, Reflect does counter CB Gross pretty well. And if Tyranitar goes to Ubers, Moonlight would be much more viable with the only threats being Abomasnow and Hippowdon. Which is all the more reason to let Tyranitar stay.
 
teekay said:
The only thing that's been suggested for an uber ban that really seems to make any kind of sense to me is Salamence, and I find that pretty questionable anyway. It does seem that Blissey is the only real counter it has with choice specs, but if anything that just means you'd ban specsmence to ubers, not Sala itself. Anyway choice items, as we all know, are prediction-reliant and therefore can be countered just by making the right decision. I'm not really going to presume to know where it belongs, it just seems more reasonable of a suggestion than most of what I've seen in this thread.

As for TTar, I'm curious, what is it that was going to be able to counter him without the sdef boost and can't now? I honestly don't see how it makes that much difference.
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I'm thinking the problem with SpecsMence is more the fact that Draco Meteor is the most broken move ever. 140 BP with only 1 resist and no immunities. And that was without STAB. Yesterday on Shoddy Battle, someone mentioned making Latias Standard (I don't agree). My counter arguement was it has the same Special attack as SpecsMence and way better defences. Honestly, the Dragon-type needs more resists.....

DDX said:
Just checked on Marriland...3HKO on Bold max/max, especially if you have Leftovers. So Cressy can just Calm Mind on the switch and sneak in a few more, then attack Meta's weaker Sp. Def with Ice Beam/Grass Knot for the eventual kill.
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So you know, Metagross resists both attacks, so even with 6 CMs, it's only like a SE move. Don't forget that Meteor Mash has more PP than Moonlight and has a 10% chance of raising Metagross's attack.
 
Hikari aka H said:
Manaphy is too good for OU.
A Random RainDance in your Team is enough to set up a Manaphy-Sweep.
Now imagine you build a Team around Manaphy?
A Rain Dance Team with Manaphy is just incredible...
Manaphy is Central of Strategy and if it faints -> Sacrifice Cress can bring back Manaphy for a 2nd Round ôO
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Are you implying Lunar Dance revives fainted Pokemon? I thought it was merely HP/status...
 
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