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SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)
- Thread starter haunter
- Start date
- Status
Don't worry, the IQ drop from talking to me is only temporary.
I do agree though, this thread has nothing to add. There's been more than enough people ranting about Swagplay to ban it if it's going to be bannned. If it's not, I don't care too much. It's a pathetic strategy, but doesn't overly affect the metagame because it has a decent chance to screw anyone who uses it. I don't expect to lose anything significant because of a swagplay abuser, and losing one in 3 matches with one while laddering isn't too annoying
Ban Swagger
Confusion in general brings nothing positive to the meta, but given that confusion in general isn't up for discussion, I'll settle for Swagger.
No guaranteed way to beat Swagplay outside of Xatu, Espeon, and Numel is just terrible. In practice, it might not work well, but the fact that you can potentially beat down half of these "counters" with pure luck seems stupid to me if we want to be considered a competitive community. You can't really counterplay it in any sort of realistic way, you just bring in something that can OHKO at +2 and doesn't get destroyed instantly if it gets confused and hope for the best.
I've said all I need to say, will never visit this thread again. Bai.
Confusion in general brings nothing positive to the meta, but given that confusion in general isn't up for discussion, I'll settle for Swagger.
No guaranteed way to beat Swagplay outside of Xatu, Espeon, and Numel is just terrible. In practice, it might not work well, but the fact that you can potentially beat down half of these "counters" with pure luck seems stupid to me if we want to be considered a competitive community. You can't really counterplay it in any sort of realistic way, you just bring in something that can OHKO at +2 and doesn't get destroyed instantly if it gets confused and hope for the best.
Yeah, assuming that Gliscor gets to attack Liepard while it isn't Subbed. Which isn't guaranteed, and is the whole reason we're having this discussion in the first place.
I've said all I need to say, will never visit this thread again. Bai.
Let's consider for a moment all of the ways suggested to "counter" or "beat" SwaggPlay.
Magic Bounce: There are three fully-evolved users of Magic Bounce: Espeon, Xatu, and Mega Absol. Mega Absol is outclassed by a slew of other Dark-types, AND it requires a Mega slot to use. In general, your team will be better off with Tyranitar or Bisharp or even Crawdaunt than Mega Absol, since they all hit just as hard or harder, have equal or better bulk, and don't require a Mega slot to use. Next, has anyone ever used Xatu in XY OU to reasonable success? I haven't used it myself, but I can't see it being too useful when Rotom-W, Aegislash, Tyranitar, Scizor, Greninja, and even Talonflame completely destroy it. Finally, sure, Espeon is more viable than the other two. But its defenses are mediocre at best (barely better than Mega Absol, in fact), and everything in the above list sans Rotom-W eats it alive as easily as Xatu. Essentially, Magic Bounce is a spectacular ability gifted to three otherwise underwhelming Pokemon. Last generation, Magic Bounce was useful to reflect hazards, but Defog has made hazard-clearing easier than ever before, rendering Magic Bounce almost entirely unnecessary.
CONCLUSION: Magic Bounce is an excellent response to SwaggPlay, but its users are rendered so obsolete by the current metagame that SwaggPlay itself and BP chains are basically the only reasons to even consider running one.
Magic Coat: The following Pokemon in the top 100 in usage last month learn Magic Coat: Porygon2, Absol, Clefable, Alakazam, Tentacruel, Slowbro, Magnezone, Starmie, Togekiss, Espeon, Celebi, Gardevoir, Sableye, Medicham, Latias, Latios, Jirachi, Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D, Reuniclus, Jellicent, Genesect (irrelevant). Seems like a pretty big list, right? Except that Porygon2 needs BoltBeam, Toxic, and Recover. Clefable needs a recovery move and either CM/Stored Power/coverage or Aromatherapy/other cleric-type moves. Alakazam needs coverage, Tentacruel needs TSpikes/Rapid Spin/Scald/Ice Beam, Slowbro needs either coverage or Slack Off/IB/Scald/TWave, Magnezone needs TBolt/HP/Sub/Magnet Rise or something, Starmie needs coverage, Togekiss needs coverage or NP/Roost/TWave, Gardevoir needs coverage, etc. The only Pokemon on this list that even have a spare slot in which to run Magic Coat are Magnezone, Deoxys-S, and Deoxys-D. Deoxys-S is undoubtedly the best of the lot, and its lead set is basically meant to die, so it's not going to be much help stalling out SwaggPlayers. Magnezone could really use Charge Beam or Flash Cannon instead, since Substitute takes care of most of its problems anyway. This leaves the list of viable Magic Coat users at: Deoxys-D.
CONCLUSION: Magic Coat is a good move, but there isn't enough of a reason to use it on anything but Deoxys-D except to specifically beat SwaggPlay. Deoxys-D is most certainly not an optimal choice for every team.
Lum Berry: Yes, there are quite a few OU setup sweepers that already run a Lum Berry, most notably Dragonite. However, Lum Berry is good for exactly one instance of status, meaning that, hypothetically, if Dragonite and, say, Klefki switched in on each other simultaneously, DNite would have the choice to Dragon Dance or Earthquake. Dragon Dance is a terrible idea, since Klefki will undoubtedly use a status move, thereby by leaving DNite vulnerable to status on the next turn. Earthquake is also a decent option, but it will not OHKO, and Klefki simply TWave to break Lum and then follow it up with Swagger. This same reasoning holds for any and all other users of Lum Berry, with the sole exception of Trevenant (who, by the way, is weak to Foul Play).
CONCLUSION: Lum Berry does not counter/beat SwaggPlay, although it can halt its progress for exactly one turn of a match.
Prankster Taunt: Definitely a solid option, and probably the most commonly usable one on this list. However, keep in mind that the fastest user of Prankster Taunt is Whimsicott, who is undoubtedly nonviable (even on SwaggPlay teams, strangely), and the second-fastest is Liepard, which is seen in OU primarily as a SwaggPlayer. Liepard can outspeed Thundurus and Taunt it first or simply set up a Substitute on it, allowing it two free Foul Plays. The other Prankster Taunters (Sableye, Mega Banette, Tornadus, and other less-useful 'mons) are also outsped by Prankster Liepard, meaning they can deal with it about as well as Pokemon without Prankster. (Also, notably, Klefki outspeeds Sableye, the second-most common Prankster user, by a lot and also 4x resists Foul Play, Sableye's most common attacking move.)
CONCLUSION: Prankster Taunt completely shuts down SwaggPlay, but all of its viable users are slower than Liepard, a SwaggPlay staple which also has access to Taunt if need be.
Own Tempo: Here is a list of all the Pokemon in the Top 200 in OU usage last month with access to Own Tempo: Slowbro, Slowking, Smeargle, Ludicolo, Lilligant, Avalugg. Slowbro and Slowking need Regenerator to perform their primary functions, Smeargle never knows any attacking moves and therefore cannot beat SwaggPlay, and Ludicolo is outclassed by almost every other FE Water-type unless it uses Swift Swim on a Rain team. This leaves Lilligant and Avalugg as viable users of this ability. Lilligant hates paralysis, as it renders it incapable of sweeping (assuming, of course, that you use it over something like Volcarona, which is generally better), and Avalugg is SR-weak and can be killed by the majority of common special attackers without difficulty.
CONCLUSION: Of the three Pokemon who can afford to run Own Tempo as their ability, one never carries attacking moves, one is outclassed very badly and is ruined by paralysis, and the third is badly equipped for OU.
Substitute: What even runs Substitute nowadays besides Kyurem-B, Breloom, and Magnezone?
CONCLUSION: Substitute also beats SwaggPlay, but it is as difficult to fit into a moveset as Magic Coat.
Safeguard: Name a single Pokemon in the top 250 in OU usage in January for which Safeguard is one of its top six move options. I dare you.
CONCLUSION: Safeguard is too niche to be usable in OU.
Numel: Only suggested as a joke, I'm sure.
CONCLUSION: Use Simple Stockpile Numel in LC.
Switching: This is an intriguing suggestion, but I think it misses the point of what beating SwaggPlay means. Suppose you've set up a Volcarona to +6/+6/+6 due to your SwaggPlaying opponent's incompetence. They send in Liepard on you, and you confidently hit Bug Buzz, knowing it will easily OHKO, even through Substitute. Liepard, thanks to Prankster, moves before your Volcarona and uses Swagger. Suddenly, your perfectly set-to-sweep sweeper has a 45% chance of doing damage to itself instead of killing Liepard. If it kills Liepard, great, in comes Sableye, which can now use TWave instead because you're already confused. If it hits itself, however, you might want to deal with your status condition by switching. BUT WAIT. If you switch, Volcarona loses those boosts that you've accumulated over six turns. Liepard has successfully UNDONE 6 TURNS OF EFFORT with a SINGLE MOVE that you COULD DO NOTHING ABOUT. SwaggPlay serves more purposes than haxing teams to death: A single SwaggPlayer on an otherwise average team can, with 90% probability, PHAZE A FULLY SET-UP SWEEPER before it has a chance to move. And then, by switching, you've left yourself vulnerable to SwaggPlay's traditional function: haxing you to death. SwaggPlay, in essence, acts a lot like Prankster Circle Throw Riolu from BW OU: incredibly gimmicky and requiring a lot of luck to pull off, but nearly impossible to stop once it gets going. And, unlike Prankster Circle Throw Riolu, SwaggPlay 1) doesn't require the user to take a hit first, 2) isn't completely ruined by priority, and 3) can work on Ghost-types.
CONCLUSION: Take Prankster Circle Throw Riolu. Now put 6 of them on a team, give them the Attack stats of your normal team, and make Circle Throw increased priority to begin with. You have now approximated a SwaggPlay team.
OVERALL CONCLUSION: There are certainly ways to beat SwaggPlay. In fact, there are many ways to beat SwaggPlay; the problem is that all of them seriously hinder the ability of the opposing player to win consistently, regardless of skill. SwaggPlay stops sweeps while simultaneously starting its own; SwaggPlay requires using otherwise useless Pokemon/items/moves to counter it; SwaggPlay consistently places the outcomes of matches into the hands of fate. That is what differentiates SwaggPlay from Jirachi or Ice Beam or Quick Claw: it can consistently render skill obsolete in determining the outcome of a match. For this reason, I support banning Swagger + Prankster. Swagger without Prankster allows it to actually be beaten consistently by priority or, heck, Lum Berries. Other confusion moves don't allow for the compounding damage that Swagger does, meaning physical walls can actually do their job properly. It is only the removal of Speed from the equation that allows SwaggPlay to be as effective as it is. Without Prankster, SwaggPlay can no longer reverse sweeps, hax faster Pokemon, or be un-Tauntable, which are three of its most gamebreaking characteristics.
Magic Bounce: There are three fully-evolved users of Magic Bounce: Espeon, Xatu, and Mega Absol. Mega Absol is outclassed by a slew of other Dark-types, AND it requires a Mega slot to use. In general, your team will be better off with Tyranitar or Bisharp or even Crawdaunt than Mega Absol, since they all hit just as hard or harder, have equal or better bulk, and don't require a Mega slot to use. Next, has anyone ever used Xatu in XY OU to reasonable success? I haven't used it myself, but I can't see it being too useful when Rotom-W, Aegislash, Tyranitar, Scizor, Greninja, and even Talonflame completely destroy it. Finally, sure, Espeon is more viable than the other two. But its defenses are mediocre at best (barely better than Mega Absol, in fact), and everything in the above list sans Rotom-W eats it alive as easily as Xatu. Essentially, Magic Bounce is a spectacular ability gifted to three otherwise underwhelming Pokemon. Last generation, Magic Bounce was useful to reflect hazards, but Defog has made hazard-clearing easier than ever before, rendering Magic Bounce almost entirely unnecessary.
CONCLUSION: Magic Bounce is an excellent response to SwaggPlay, but its users are rendered so obsolete by the current metagame that SwaggPlay itself and BP chains are basically the only reasons to even consider running one.
Magic Coat: The following Pokemon in the top 100 in usage last month learn Magic Coat: Porygon2, Absol, Clefable, Alakazam, Tentacruel, Slowbro, Magnezone, Starmie, Togekiss, Espeon, Celebi, Gardevoir, Sableye, Medicham, Latias, Latios, Jirachi, Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D, Reuniclus, Jellicent, Genesect (irrelevant). Seems like a pretty big list, right? Except that Porygon2 needs BoltBeam, Toxic, and Recover. Clefable needs a recovery move and either CM/Stored Power/coverage or Aromatherapy/other cleric-type moves. Alakazam needs coverage, Tentacruel needs TSpikes/Rapid Spin/Scald/Ice Beam, Slowbro needs either coverage or Slack Off/IB/Scald/TWave, Magnezone needs TBolt/HP/Sub/Magnet Rise or something, Starmie needs coverage, Togekiss needs coverage or NP/Roost/TWave, Gardevoir needs coverage, etc. The only Pokemon on this list that even have a spare slot in which to run Magic Coat are Magnezone, Deoxys-S, and Deoxys-D. Deoxys-S is undoubtedly the best of the lot, and its lead set is basically meant to die, so it's not going to be much help stalling out SwaggPlayers. Magnezone could really use Charge Beam or Flash Cannon instead, since Substitute takes care of most of its problems anyway. This leaves the list of viable Magic Coat users at: Deoxys-D.
CONCLUSION: Magic Coat is a good move, but there isn't enough of a reason to use it on anything but Deoxys-D except to specifically beat SwaggPlay. Deoxys-D is most certainly not an optimal choice for every team.
Lum Berry: Yes, there are quite a few OU setup sweepers that already run a Lum Berry, most notably Dragonite. However, Lum Berry is good for exactly one instance of status, meaning that, hypothetically, if Dragonite and, say, Klefki switched in on each other simultaneously, DNite would have the choice to Dragon Dance or Earthquake. Dragon Dance is a terrible idea, since Klefki will undoubtedly use a status move, thereby by leaving DNite vulnerable to status on the next turn. Earthquake is also a decent option, but it will not OHKO, and Klefki simply TWave to break Lum and then follow it up with Swagger. This same reasoning holds for any and all other users of Lum Berry, with the sole exception of Trevenant (who, by the way, is weak to Foul Play).
CONCLUSION: Lum Berry does not counter/beat SwaggPlay, although it can halt its progress for exactly one turn of a match.
Prankster Taunt: Definitely a solid option, and probably the most commonly usable one on this list. However, keep in mind that the fastest user of Prankster Taunt is Whimsicott, who is undoubtedly nonviable (even on SwaggPlay teams, strangely), and the second-fastest is Liepard, which is seen in OU primarily as a SwaggPlayer. Liepard can outspeed Thundurus and Taunt it first or simply set up a Substitute on it, allowing it two free Foul Plays. The other Prankster Taunters (Sableye, Mega Banette, Tornadus, and other less-useful 'mons) are also outsped by Prankster Liepard, meaning they can deal with it about as well as Pokemon without Prankster. (Also, notably, Klefki outspeeds Sableye, the second-most common Prankster user, by a lot and also 4x resists Foul Play, Sableye's most common attacking move.)
CONCLUSION: Prankster Taunt completely shuts down SwaggPlay, but all of its viable users are slower than Liepard, a SwaggPlay staple which also has access to Taunt if need be.
Own Tempo: Here is a list of all the Pokemon in the Top 200 in OU usage last month with access to Own Tempo: Slowbro, Slowking, Smeargle, Ludicolo, Lilligant, Avalugg. Slowbro and Slowking need Regenerator to perform their primary functions, Smeargle never knows any attacking moves and therefore cannot beat SwaggPlay, and Ludicolo is outclassed by almost every other FE Water-type unless it uses Swift Swim on a Rain team. This leaves Lilligant and Avalugg as viable users of this ability. Lilligant hates paralysis, as it renders it incapable of sweeping (assuming, of course, that you use it over something like Volcarona, which is generally better), and Avalugg is SR-weak and can be killed by the majority of common special attackers without difficulty.
CONCLUSION: Of the three Pokemon who can afford to run Own Tempo as their ability, one never carries attacking moves, one is outclassed very badly and is ruined by paralysis, and the third is badly equipped for OU.
Substitute: What even runs Substitute nowadays besides Kyurem-B, Breloom, and Magnezone?
CONCLUSION: Substitute also beats SwaggPlay, but it is as difficult to fit into a moveset as Magic Coat.
Safeguard: Name a single Pokemon in the top 250 in OU usage in January for which Safeguard is one of its top six move options. I dare you.
CONCLUSION: Safeguard is too niche to be usable in OU.
Numel: Only suggested as a joke, I'm sure.
CONCLUSION: Use Simple Stockpile Numel in LC.
Switching: This is an intriguing suggestion, but I think it misses the point of what beating SwaggPlay means. Suppose you've set up a Volcarona to +6/+6/+6 due to your SwaggPlaying opponent's incompetence. They send in Liepard on you, and you confidently hit Bug Buzz, knowing it will easily OHKO, even through Substitute. Liepard, thanks to Prankster, moves before your Volcarona and uses Swagger. Suddenly, your perfectly set-to-sweep sweeper has a 45% chance of doing damage to itself instead of killing Liepard. If it kills Liepard, great, in comes Sableye, which can now use TWave instead because you're already confused. If it hits itself, however, you might want to deal with your status condition by switching. BUT WAIT. If you switch, Volcarona loses those boosts that you've accumulated over six turns. Liepard has successfully UNDONE 6 TURNS OF EFFORT with a SINGLE MOVE that you COULD DO NOTHING ABOUT. SwaggPlay serves more purposes than haxing teams to death: A single SwaggPlayer on an otherwise average team can, with 90% probability, PHAZE A FULLY SET-UP SWEEPER before it has a chance to move. And then, by switching, you've left yourself vulnerable to SwaggPlay's traditional function: haxing you to death. SwaggPlay, in essence, acts a lot like Prankster Circle Throw Riolu from BW OU: incredibly gimmicky and requiring a lot of luck to pull off, but nearly impossible to stop once it gets going. And, unlike Prankster Circle Throw Riolu, SwaggPlay 1) doesn't require the user to take a hit first, 2) isn't completely ruined by priority, and 3) can work on Ghost-types.
CONCLUSION: Take Prankster Circle Throw Riolu. Now put 6 of them on a team, give them the Attack stats of your normal team, and make Circle Throw increased priority to begin with. You have now approximated a SwaggPlay team.
OVERALL CONCLUSION: There are certainly ways to beat SwaggPlay. In fact, there are many ways to beat SwaggPlay; the problem is that all of them seriously hinder the ability of the opposing player to win consistently, regardless of skill. SwaggPlay stops sweeps while simultaneously starting its own; SwaggPlay requires using otherwise useless Pokemon/items/moves to counter it; SwaggPlay consistently places the outcomes of matches into the hands of fate. That is what differentiates SwaggPlay from Jirachi or Ice Beam or Quick Claw: it can consistently render skill obsolete in determining the outcome of a match. For this reason, I support banning Swagger + Prankster. Swagger without Prankster allows it to actually be beaten consistently by priority or, heck, Lum Berries. Other confusion moves don't allow for the compounding damage that Swagger does, meaning physical walls can actually do their job properly. It is only the removal of Speed from the equation that allows SwaggPlay to be as effective as it is. Without Prankster, SwaggPlay can no longer reverse sweeps, hax faster Pokemon, or be un-Tauntable, which are three of its most gamebreaking characteristics.
Paralysis's primary purpose is destroying an opponent's Speed, and happens to have a secondary effect of having a 25% chance of preventing an attack. And for good measure, it has an entire type immune to it.
Confusion's single purpose is having a 50% chance of preventing attacks, and has no types immune to it.
There is a huge difference between a type of move that has a secondary effect of randomly making your opponent's moves useless and having only an effect of randomly making your opponent's moves worthless. The second is where Confusion moves fall, and as we've already seen with the Evasion ban, that can be a reason for a ban.
Subsitute.
The first move they attempt will not be putting up a sub. I've faced these teams and watched battles where they will always try to Paralyze or Confuse first. Give them the choice scarf, then heal yourself by switching and using a cleric. Their strategy fails.
Salt the Flesh said:
Chesnaught said:
BlackLight said:
I don't mean to advocate that this is enough of a reason to claim Swagplay is totally competitive, but why does everyone always forget about Chansey and Blissey as Swagplay counters? People are jokingly advocating using Numel and claiming that there's nothing else, when a perfectly viable tool is sitting right there in the form of two pink blobs.
I'm not advocating that these two pokemon be used to justify keeping Swagplay in the metagame. No, I'm not saying they fit on every team, nor am I saying people ought to make an extra effort to use them. I'm not ignoring their flaws in a metagame full of Knock Off and hyper-offense either. But it seems really odd that people bring up a bunch of shit like Avalugg, Electrode and Numel while forgetting about Chansey and Blissey. They deserve more credit than that.
I do remember having a battle on the Smogon Wifi Battle Finder where I used a Liepard and made my opponent's Tornadus-T a non-issue since I paralyzed it and all. Get Liepard/Klefki behind a substitute, get lucky with the confusion rolls, and prepare to troll teams...or rip your hair out if you're on the other side of this. Liepard in last gen's NU and Klefki have other sets to run than this strategy (weather support for the former and a spiker or screen support set for the latter), so I wouldn't go as far as to ban those Pokemon JUST for one set. My two cents would be to complex ban Swagger + Prankster. That combination guarantees confusion before the opponent moves unless the Pokemon is using priority of some sort (Priority Taunt shuts this down completely. Thundurus-I with Taunt shuts it down even further). Banning Swagger also makes some sense as hitting yourself in confusion applies to your physical attacking stat, but whatever floats this boat.
In either case, you have to win the dice roll on confusion or paralyze, both have a priority +1 and will be first before you have a chance to sub. In Liepard's case there's just no hope cause she's so fast and even if you use priority back they have 106 speed+1. The rest of the game is going to depend on that first luck roll or using the same thing they have.
Gliscor can simply use Earthquake to break the Sub, and if confusion wears off, then the SwagPlay user has to use Swagger again. During the turns the SwagPlay user is waiting for a miss by spamming Sub, then Gliscor heals passively.
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To reiterate from my other posts, it seems that having only one SwagPlay user per team is quite manageable. It is not that difficult to check an individual SwagPlay user, but to do so for an entire team is just frustrating.
Yes, I once killed an Excadrill with Swagger with a Klefki (I had a Conkeldurr and Lando-T for some insurance). I do not see how that is different from using a Focus Blast on Gengar (and it is more risky proposition, although double Confusion gets you rewarded with a Sub), which I put to counter arguments that SwagPlay also places risks on the opponent.
After reading through every page of this thread (in effect reading Balsty's stupid condescending attitude- gtfo of smogon if you are so affected with being laughed at by fucking /vp/. No one here cares about what /vp/, nor you, think about us anyways) I want to say that the only logical argument is the safeguard argument (I wish it didn't come from the douchiest person in the thread, but there you go) since it fits under "being creative" and does only take one moveslot.
Anything else (especially saying "use own tempo" and listing SMEARGLE AS A POSSIBLE COUNTER) just reeks of bullshit, or does not understand the situation at hand. So if I have a prankster taunter- am I going to wait all game for the swagplay pokemon to come in? Or am I going to switch it into a swagger, and have the 50/50 bullshit all over again? Had enough of this thread, confident it will be banned, and thank heavens for that.
Anything else (especially saying "use own tempo" and listing SMEARGLE AS A POSSIBLE COUNTER) just reeks of bullshit, or does not understand the situation at hand. So if I have a prankster taunter- am I going to wait all game for the swagplay pokemon to come in? Or am I going to switch it into a swagger, and have the 50/50 bullshit all over again? Had enough of this thread, confident it will be banned, and thank heavens for that.
Just chiming in to say I support this ban 100%
Anyone who suggests OWN TEMPO has no idea what they're talking about (rofl NUMEL and GRUMPIG), as is anyone who is suggesting MAGIC BOUNCE; the 3 users are all 3HKOed at least by FOUL PLAY.
Why, yes, I'll run LUM BERRY on every single one of my mons just in case I meet Swagplay and cripple their effectiveness vs. any other type of team. Why, might as well run PERSIM BERRY.
Anyone who suggests OWN TEMPO has no idea what they're talking about (rofl NUMEL and GRUMPIG), as is anyone who is suggesting MAGIC BOUNCE; the 3 users are all 3HKOed at least by FOUL PLAY.
Why, yes, I'll run LUM BERRY on every single one of my mons just in case I meet Swagplay and cripple their effectiveness vs. any other type of team. Why, might as well run PERSIM BERRY.
Because it has NO defense to use eviolite with (60/40/45). Who needs to paralyze it, just switch to anything with water coverage and they'll get a free attack on the bastard.
Infiltrator Switcheroo Noivern with choice specs and a flamethrower to OHKO Klefki after it uses Sub. That's what I use. I make sure to give it 0 IV Attacks so it wont hurt itself in confusion that hard and a bad physical attacking nature.
The odds are 50/50. Just take a chance. Flip a coin and if it is heads, delete it. If it is tails, let it be. That's how moderating is supposed to be, right?
I think you've provided a pretty great analysis. Although I was formerly convinced SwagPlay shouldn't be banned, you've seriously made me reconsider my arguments. I would still argue that most sweepers keep a priority move handy, such as Dragonite, to avoid an Ice Shard putting an end to its sweep.
IMPOSSIBLE. Our eyes clearly could not process the glory of the beatdown Numel gave to that team.
Either that, or Numel is a really shitty Pokemon.
Stop mentioning Numel.
Even if it was a joke, people bring up the Numel suggestion as if nobody has suggested a better counter. There's plenty of Pokemon that stop SwagPlay the majority of the time, if not always. Several of them are OU. One is the #1 Pokemon in the tier.
The analysis did make two mistakes. One is that the genies actually do outspeed Liepard and Taunt it, and two is that there's more than 3 Substitute users in OU.
Even if it was a joke, people bring up the Numel suggestion as if nobody has suggested a better counter. There's plenty of Pokemon that stop SwagPlay the majority of the time, if not always. Several of them are OU. One is the #1 Pokemon in the tier.
The analysis did make two mistakes. One is that the genies actually do outspeed Liepard and Taunt it, and two is that there's more than 3 Substitute users in OU.
Thundurus has base 101 speed, Liepard has base 106. Not like most Liepards are being speed-invested due to Prankster, but still. Tornadus has 126 base speed, so that could work, but no one really uses Tornadus.
However, confusion is, as I said, temporary and easily curable upon switching out, which makes it way different than Evasion clause. Evasion forced you to play at the opponents pace. Confusion is nothing more than a minor annoyance unless that pokemon has Prankster or the player doesn't know how to switch out.
Wrong Thundurus and outright wrong stats for Tornadus. Both Incarnate forms have 111 Speed. Thundurus-Therian has 101 Speed and Tornadus-Therian has 121 Speed.
Thundurus-Therian has base 101 speed. Thundurus-Incarnate has base 111.
Something else I forgot to mention: There's more than 3 Pokemon that use Substitute in OU.
Heatran uses it 7% of the time.
Gliscor runs it 46% of the time.
Gengar runs it 34% of the time.
Gyarados runs it 15% of the time.
Mawile runs it 17% of the time.
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