SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)

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Ban Swagger, Flatter, Confuse Ray, and Supersonic under a Confusion Clause, as well as any virtually synonymous moves I might've forgotten. Same concept as the Evasion Clause, except it plays out a bit differently. You can work around both effects, but they're both often enough just a giant luck mess.

Foul Play, Prankster, etc. are just ways of magnifying the fundamental threat of confusion. They are not the problem. There's no need for a complex ban when we already have a simple ban that fits existing ban philosophy.
Would this include banning Dynamic Punch, because that's Machamp's only claim to fame, and I'd be sad to steal it from him.
 
Come on what are people even doing suggesting complex bans. Why do we NEED confusion in this game. Swagger, confuse ray, flatter, chatter, all of these moves have only one purpose, remove the skill from the game. You know, like moody and evasion. Confusion moves are dumb even without prankster, theres absolutely no reason to allow them, there never was. Seriously lets just get rid of this shit for good.
Chatter could be a bit different because it actually does damage... hmm. Might take some judgment calls. It does seem a bit silly to specifically make an exception for the move that has the same "broken" effect but also does damage.

But yeah there's no sense in a complex ban when there's no reason not to simply ban Swagger (and Confuse Ray, and Flatter...) or when Prankster is just a way of using the same strategy more easily.
 
Fucking finally, this thread is here. The amount of happiness and poetic justice I am feeling cannot be described in words.

Seriously, I'd much rather have MKang, MGar and MLuke and Genesect around than have Swagplay. Heck, I'd rather have Arceus. I'd rather need to predict when they switch in and KO them, rather than need to fight against the confusion hax while he hides behind a substitute, no doubt snickering like an asshole.

I'm for banning Swagger, Confuse Ray and Flatter. Basically, BAN CONFUSION.
 

wishes

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Ok, I've been thinking a lot and this is what I thought:
Ban Confusion + Prankster.
Banning Confusion outright is not ok, due to Machamp and Chatot, but it is also not broken itself because not many things want to use a moveslot to use it, but with Prankster, it is very hard to stop.
 
The fact that you have failed to present a well presented, non-condescending argument is absolutely ridiculous.

There are a lot of things you can run on Klefki and Safeguard is usually a waste of space other than to prevent confusion from a strategy that is uncompetitive as fuck.
Prevents Toxic, WoW on physical sweepers as well. It's worked pretty well for me.

Still fail to see how SwagPlay is uncounterable. I've been doing it since the metagame started.


Also, to the idiots(I don't even care anymore, these people are actual full retards) posting battle replays of swagplay beating UBERS teams.
OF COURSE IT KILLS ALL THE UBERS. It's UBERS. Their attack stats are so bloody sky-high that Foul Play even without the boost is going to tear them apart. My god, I can't believe that's actually being used as evidence for why it should be banned.

Subject 18, would you kindly give a valid reason for hiding my post other than foul language or telling people to get better at the game.
 
Calm_Mind_Latias Chesnaught
Prankster Swagger is the problem, the other modes of confusion are fine. The problem with Prankster Swagger is that it is transcending speed tiers in addition to boosting the damage output of the recoil it causes (as well as foul play). Combine that with the free turns it can generate by spamming priority substitutes and you have the problem we have now.

And remember kiddos:

 
Will there be any repercussions if we only ban Swagger or Prankster+Swagger for now and keep confusion "on watch"? I very much doubt people will successfully abuse Confuse Ray and the like, and outright banning Confusion could be "harmful" for any future suspect discussions.
This could be workable. Most importantly, I'm starting to feel like stuff like Chatter and Dynamic Punch lead to a weird situation of figuring out where to draw the line if we tried to throw in stuff like Confuse Ray and Supersonic.
 
You still have to be in when they are or had used Safeguard in the last 5 turns. Otherwise the game because a luck feast. That is the problem, not that Swagplay is unbeatable, but that it is just frustrating luck based strait.

You don't need luck to counter it. You need a viable counter.
 
Calm_Mind_Latias Chesnaught
Prankster Swagger is the problem, the other modes of confusion are fine. The problem with Prankster Swagger is that it is transcending speed tiers in addition to boosting the damage output of the recoil it causes (as well as foul play). Combine that with the free turns it can generate by spamming priority substitutes and you have the problem we have now.

And remember kiddos:

But the troll looks hungry!

Anyway, to all the people asking why we need confusion, I'll ask, why do we need to get rid of it?
 
yo can we ban retards for geuninely trying to make a "slippery slope" argument?
Look, I dislike the Slippery Slope fallacy as well. But I'm not saying gay marriage leads to turtle marriage, I'm saying if enough people are making logic-based arguments around banning an ability or an entire game mechanic, they can make an equally logic-based argument against further mechanics. Courts use precedents for a reason.
 
I like the idea of one Prankster + Swagger + Foul Play user per team.

It is fairly easy to counter a given SwagPlay user such as Klefki or Liepard, but it is much harder to counter an entire team against them. I used a SwagPlay Klefki once, and it is not broken individually, and it can be played around as bulky Ground types really frustrate it.
 
Ban Swagger, Flatter, Confuse Ray, and Supersonic under a Confusion Clause, as well as any virtually synonymous moves I might've forgotten. Same concept as the Evasion Clause, except it plays out a bit differently. You can work around both effects, but they're both often enough just a giant luck mess.

Foul Play, Prankster, etc. are just ways of magnifying the fundamental threat of confusion. They are not the problem. There's no need for a complex ban when we already have a simple ban that fits existing ban philosophy.
Guys like these are just trolling. They just want to see the pokemon world burn with all these excessive bans and they get a kick out of it too knowing that they helped banned something makes them feel good. Its illogical judging. The TC should feel guilty for even thinking about creating this thread.
 
I like the idea of one Prankster + Swagger + Foul Play user per team.

It is fairly easy to counter a given SwagPlay user such as Klefki or Liepard, but it is much harder to counter an entire team against them. I used a SwagPlay Klefki once, and it is not broken individually, and it can be played around as bulky Ground types really frustrate it.
That isn't going to happen. Its too complex of a ban and is probably difficult to implement anyway. Just banning prankster + swagger is the best option if there were to be a ban. It eliminates pretty much all of the problems with swag play but doesn't entirely take away the use of it, because you could still use it without prankster. The problem with swag play is prankster. Without priority, it is very easy to get around.
 
I vote NO BAN. Good players should always build teams that take into account the different strategies other players will use and will throw at them. This is one of them, similar to Volturn. Both are annoying strategies but can be dealt with. Having a cleric or a ground type is a very good counter to it. The SwagPlay teams are not threatening to a team, like a Mega Lucario who can set up and destroy teams. My point is that there are very strong PokeMon in OU, like a Mega Pinsir and just like you would plan to counter the Pokemon you should plan to counter the strategy. The problem with Mega Luc was that imo even if you planned for the Pokemon, it would still with a few setups destroy whatever counter you had for it. SwagPlay, however, is much easier to counter. I also think that things that are simply annoying should not be a criteria for banning a strategy. Stall is very annoying but we won't just go around banning recovery moves. Luck has also always been a part of the game, getting a burn from a FlameBody is luck just like SwagPlay is.
 
Guys like these are just trolling. They just want to see the pokemon world burn with all these excessive bans and they get a kick out of it too knowing that they helped banned something makes them feel good. Its illogical judging. The TC should feel guilty for even thinking about creating this thread.
Hi. I assure you, I hate seeing any bans for anything that actually adds to the metagame unless 100% necessary. Confusion does not add jack shit to the metagame.
 
Why are people still listing all these random 'counters' lol. Again, it's not about whether it's beatable or counterable.

Does swagplay reduce the game to a dice roll each turn? Yes or No?
Is a dice roll desirable for a competitive rule set? Yes or No?

The answer the to first question is yes. What has to be determined is whether as a collective people have a problem or not with the second one. Do you wanna play random.org/dice or not?

Yes = No ban.
No = Ban.

Simple.
 
That isn't going to happen. Its too complex of a ban and is probably difficult to implement anyway. Just banning prankster + swagger is the best option if there were to be a ban. It eliminates pretty much all of the problems with swag play but doesn't entirely take away the use of it.
This. If you absolutely HAVE to ban something, ban Swagger+Prankster
 
You don't need luck to counter it. You need a viable counter.
All but one way of dealing with it requires you to have the proper conditions up ahead of time, or be in at the same time. That is not a counter. The only one you have mentioned that is a counter is Safeguard. You can't swap whism into a swagplay mon without risking confusion and to which the game becomes a 50-50. I am sorry, but I will not respond to you again unless you actually bring something logic to the table. If not, I wish you a good day sir.
 
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