SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)

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So...first, for the people who say SwagPlay has little to no counters because anything else can be beaten through hax, just stop it. Sure, few pokemon other than stuff like Roost Xatu are 100% counters, but there are still pokemon all over that have a good chance of winning. It's like saying Weavile is broken because it can beat nearly any pokemon by outspeeding, Ice Punching and getting a freeze. Yeah, in theory that's true, but that's a ridiculous chance to rely on. There are a lot of good counters that people have pointed out that aren't 100% but work well. Here are a few more:<br />
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Magnezone: High (base 115) physical defense, while having a low (base 70) attack stat that it doesn't use and can therefore lower it all the way down to 0 IVs. Immunity to Thunder Wave. Substitute sets are decently viable due to being able to set up on Ferrothorn, Forretress, some Jirachi, etc. and dump on swagger sets too now. Volt Switch can break subs and remove swagger in the same turn. Finally, it can do all that while trapping Klefki, who is generally considered the best Swag Player.

Tangrowth: Similar to Magnezone, it can be physically defensive while using only special attacks though some like to go physical attacking or mixed. Admittedly Earthquake takes out Klefki a lot easier, and Knock Off puts a limit on number of substitutes. If swaggers stack up too much, switch and you can heal off whatever you took with regenerator.

Zygarde: Specifically, Coil Zygarde. Coil can get defense boosts to keep up with attack somewhat, which makes it hard to get revenged by Ditto unless you have Outrage, not recommended on a slow coil set, and naturally high defense means it isn't too badly hit by confusion or foul play. Zygarde is immune to Thunder Wave, and benefits from Swagger. Most importantly, if you can get confusion to end without dying first, +2 or +3 Extreme Speed murders swagplay.

Other people have already pointed out good ones: Mandibuzz, Rotom-W, Chansey, Clefable, Xatu, Sylveon, Umbreon, Thundurus, Quagsire off the top of my head. Other things like Lum Berry too, that aren't even a specific pokemon.

If you're not prepared for a certain threat, you're gonna get beat. And for the people who say that one counter can't take on a team of six, well, odds are it can take on a few and the rest of your team can luck through if you're up 5-3 or whatever when your best counter goes down. Or, ya know, it is a legitimate strategy to overwhelm the opponent with pokemon that use similar checks to wear them down so eventually one of them gets through. That's the entire idea behind cores like Staraptor+Talonflame, and 2Drag+Mag or whatever it was called.

Second, the burden of proof for why this should be banned is on the people banning. Smogon doesn't just ban stuff because "no one" likes it or uses it, or it's deemed not viable.

Third, about the dependence of luck and lack of skill...well, that's not exactly all that much more abundant in Swagplay than other teams. You still need to analyze what the opponent can do to you. If you're up against Mandibuzz and aren't getting anywhere, maybe you should switch to an actual attacker. If Gardevoir can hit your Liepard with Hyper Voice, gtfo.

I know it sounds a lot simpler than other styles but, really, that's probably because you're used to facing teams that are six of the same one trick pony swagplayers who all do equally well (or bad, most likely) against any pokemon. A well built swag play team with 2-3 abusers, and other pokemon that cover its flaws actually does take skill and will be a lot more successful.

As for reliance on luck...a few people have pointed this out, but against an opponent with confusion and paralysis, luck is actually on the annoyers' sides. It's about the long run odds. Landing that first swagger is the hardest part, especially if the opponent is particularly threatening (though that's when Ditto comes in...) From there, you can use substitute and have a decent chance of buying yourself a free turn, even better chance if the opponent is paralyzed. Switching also gets free subs, so swagplay will work more often than not, at least if you're looking for free turns to safely land foul play or set up spikes or whatever.

Also, it doesn't take luck to boost attack and use foul play, the only part requiring luck is getting free turns, and they'll happen time to time, that's just how chance will work. It doesn't really matter when the free turns come if you're spamming substitute and fishing for them.
 
Yeah, Own Tempo users like Lilligant, Lickilicky, Grumpig, Purugly, Spinda, Avalugg and the slowmons, because i doesnt need regenerator.
And Xatu/Espeon can take STAB Foul Play all the day.
C'mon, Garchomp is a best example.
Luck is only one part of the game, and i never lost vs swagplay, but i doesnt need it on the tier.


Again, if swagplay can be checked or countered isent the point.
The question is: why we need swagplay?
Why is everyone so set on the idea that if something is powerful if not countered it somehow centralizes the metagame or hurts the competitive spirit of it all? Talonflame would be in Ubers if Stealth Rock didn't exist, so why is no one saying Talonflame should be banned because it forces everyone to run Stealth Rock? Because everyone already ran Stealth Rock before Talonflame? If you're going to make that argument then you might as well say swagger+prankster shouldn't be banned as most people already ran at least one of the following:
-Someone with Taunt
-Someone with Magic Coat/Magic Bounce
-A ground type
-Someone with Own Tempo
-Someone with a priority fire-attack
-Someone that could attack through subs

Any of these can put a decent dent in a Klefki running SwagPlay. I highly doubt people considering running (just one of!) these to check what is really not a very common Pokemon is particularly centralizing.
 
All those require use on the switch in. In the swagster gets in without you having the effects listed already in play, the match turns into a coin flip. Yeah, not competitive in the slightest.

Edit: the quote part didn't go through....but this was to Balsty
Weird.

Dude, I run Safeguard on Klefki. Shuts down Swagplay and all I have to drop is one moveslot. There's also Substitute.
Whimsicott with Taunt breaks Klefki and gives you a free turn to set up a sub or leech seed or whatever you like. Free switch in if you want.
 
Why is everyone so set on the idea that if something is powerful if not countered it somehow centralizes the metagame or hurts the competitive spirit of it all? Talonflame would be in Ubers if Stealth Rock didn't exist, so why is no one saying Talonflame should be banned because it forces everyone to run Stealth Rock? Because everyone already ran Stealth Rock before Talonflame? If you're going to make that argument then you might as well say swagger+prankster shouldn't be banned as most people already ran at least one of the following:
-Someone with Taunt
-Someone with Magic Coat/Magic Bounce
-A ground type
-Someone with Own Tempo
-Someone with a priority fire-attack
-Someone that could attack through subs

Any of these can put a decent dent in a Klefki running SwagPlay. I highly doubt people considering running (just one of!) these to check what is really not a very common Pokemon is particularly centralizing.
What?

-There's no priority taunt, so if you hurt urself in confusion, you could lose very easily
-Magic Coat is very niche, and the only Bouncer in OU is Espeon, who's at least 3HKO'd by foul play and can barely 3HKO first with its standard moves
-ground types still have to deal with confusion
-Own Tempo sucks, it should never have to be used
-Priority fire?
-who can attack through subs if they're hitting themselves in confusion?

NONE of these are reliable ways to deal with Klefki

Also, to the idiots(I don't even care anymore, these people are actual full retards) posting battle replays of swagplay beating UBERS teams.

OF FUCKING COURSE IT KILLS ALL THE UBERS. It's fucking UBERS. Their attack stats are so bloody sky-high that Foul Play even without the boost is going to tear them apart. My god, I can't believe that's actually being used as evidence for why it should be banned.

Git gud people. Git gud.
The answer isn't to "Git gud," its to get lucky, which is the problem you moron. You have a point about the ubers, but there are plenty of OU examples that show any noob can beat the top ranked players with luck, and that should never be ok

edit: there is priority taunt, so my bad, we should all start running scarf pranksters now!
 

Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
is a Pre-Contributor
Any and every pokemon you mentioned loses if it hits itself in confusion after swagger enough times.
(Magic Bounce users you can simply Foul Play, there are also no viable users of Own Tempo)

That's it.
Any argument you can bring up loses to enough swaggering.
It's pretty absolute...
Safeguard? Nope, you're gonna hit yourself in confusion first.
Taunt? See above
Everything else? See above
 
Swagger/Foul Play adds absolutely no depth to the game, and forces the opponent to take chances they wouldn't ordinarily take in a competitive game. I also hate slippery slope arguments, which a lot of anti-ban people are giving. Why would having one complex ban in regard to swagplay, a "strategy" (lol) that is obvious uncompetitive, lead to more arbitrary complex bans? Why can't we just ban what needs to be banned as it comes along?
 
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Why is everyone so set on the idea that if something is powerful if not countered it somehow centralizes the metagame or hurts the competitive spirit of it all? Talonflame would be in Ubers if Stealth Rock didn't exist, so why is no one saying Talonflame should be banned because it forces everyone to run Stealth Rock? Because everyone already ran Stealth Rock before Talonflame? If you're going to make that argument then you might as well say swagger+prankster shouldn't be banned as most people already ran at least one of the following:
-Someone with Taunt
-Someone with Magic Coat/Magic Bounce
-A ground type
-Someone with Own Tempo
-Someone with a priority fire-attack
-Someone that could attack through subs

Any of these can put a decent dent in a Klefki running SwagPlay. I highly doubt people considering running (just one of!) these to check what is really not a very common Pokemon is particularly centralizing.
Only Deoxys-S/D use Magic Coat.
Espeon and Xatu sucks in XY.
Ground Types can be killed with Swagger+Foul Play, Or a team mate.
Smeargle is the only real user of Own Tempo.
Klefky resist Extreme Speed, everything else can be Paralyzed.
Klefky resist Bug Buzz and Hyper Voice, Infiltrator users like Noiverm, Crobat and Chandelure generally sucks.


Why not simple say Lum Berry Garchomp or Heal Bell Chansey? Trully counters.

But, again, if swagplay can be checked or countered isent the point.
The question is: why we need swagplay?
 

THE_IRON_...KENYAN?

Banned deucer.
First they came for Mega Blaziken, and I did not speak out-- Because I did not use Mega Blaziken.

Then they came for Mega Kangeskan, and I did not speak out-- Because I did not use Mega Kangeskan.

Then they came for the Mega Lucario users, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Mega Lucario user.

Then they came for Swagplay--and there was no one left to speak for me.
 
Swagger/Foul Play adds absolutely no depth to the game, and forces the opponent to take chances they wouldn't ordinarily take in a competitive game. I also hate slippery slope arguments, which a lot of anti-ban people are giving. Why would having one complex ban in regard to swagplay, a "strategy (lol) that is obvious uncompetitive, lead to more arbitrary complex bans? Why can't we just ban what needs to be banned as it comes along?
I'd like to avoid justifying my friends who say we ban too much. While not "good" for the meta game, +0 priority swagger doesn't take away from the meta game either, so that's why I'd like to avoid banning swagger out right. I don't particularly care though
 
What?

-There's no priority taunt, so if you hurt urself in confusion, you could lose very easily
What is Whimsicott, for 400?

-Magic Coat is very niche, and the only Bouncer in OU is Espeon, who's at least 3HKO'd by foul play and can barely 3HKO first with its standard moves
Hidden Power Fire, anyone? Throw in a fire gem or even expert belt if you want to guarantee it. Not saying you have to.

NONE of these are reliable ways to deal with Klefki
If you seriously think that, you suck at this game. I'm really disappointed in you.


The answer isn't to "Git gud," its to get lucky, which is the problem you moron. You have a point about the ubers, but there are plenty of OU examples that show any noob can beat the top ranked players with luck, and that should never be ok

edit: there is priority taunt, so my bad, we should all start running scarf pranksters now!
You're actually pretty damn stupid. Sorry, just being honest.
 
Also, to the idiots(I don't even care anymore, these people are actual full retards) posting battle replays of swagplay beating UBERS teams.

OF FUCKING COURSE IT KILLS ALL THE UBERS. It's fucking UBERS. Their attack stats are so bloody sky-high that Foul Play even without the boost is going to tear them apart. My god, I can't believe that's actually being used as evidence for why it should be banned.

Git gud people. Git gud.
Respectfully speaking as someone who doesn't have a badge or someone who isn't high on the ladder, even though I think people in my position are capable of contributing to the discussion without ruining it, there are many more people like this individual who are honestly making the topic less than palatable.

I'd like to echo the request previously made for this topic to be moved to policy review so people with actual relevant experience to draw judgment from can come to a conclusion.
 
Why is everyone so set on the idea that if something is powerful if not countered it somehow centralizes the metagame or hurts the competitive spirit of it all? Talonflame would be in Ubers if Stealth Rock didn't exist, so why is no one saying Talonflame should be banned because it forces everyone to run Stealth Rock? Because everyone already ran Stealth Rock before Talonflame? If you're going to make that argument then you might as well say swagger+prankster shouldn't be banned as most people already ran at least one of the following:
-Someone with Taunt
-Someone with Magic Coat/Magic Bounce
-A ground type
-Someone with Own Tempo
-Someone with a priority fire-attack
-Someone that could attack through subs

Any of these can put a decent dent in a Klefki running SwagPlay. I highly doubt people considering running (just one of!) these to check what is really not a very common Pokemon is particularly centralizing.
You need to troll harder.

-Someone with Taunt

You can not pull off Taunt consistently because Prankster Swagger transcends speed and forces a 50% chance. Your Prankster Taunt also might not be faster than the opposing Prankster (eg. Sableye) so that leaves us Thundurus-I. Only one pokemon with Prankster Taunt exists that outspeeds SwagPlay Thundurus-I: Whimsicott.
-Someone with Magic Coat/Magic Bounce

All Magic Bouncers are 2HKO'ed by Foul Play after Rocks. SwagPlay can PP stall Magic Coat.
-A ground type

Most Ground-types have high attack, so they hit themselves hard from Swagger attack boosts. That Foul Play hitting their high-attack doesn't help
-Someone with Own Tempo

Almost all of them are unviable Pokemon. The good ones: Slowbro, Slowking, and Ludicolo, lose their viability by running Own Tempo. Smeargle doesn't last vs Foul Play

-Someone with a priority fire-attack

rofl

-Someone that could attack through subs

You are still subject to the 50% confusion coin flips from Swagger and can lose. Klefki resists the all sound-based attacking moves
 
What?

-There's no priority taunt, so if you hurt urself in confusion, you could lose very easily
-Magic Coat is very niche, and the only Bouncer in OU is Espeon, who's at least 3HKO'd by foul play and can barely 3HKO first with its standard moves
-ground types still have to deal with confusion
-Own Tempo sucks, it should never have to be used
-Priority fire?
-who can attack through subs if they're hitting themselves in confusion?

NONE of these are reliable ways to deal with Klefki


The answer isn't to "Git gud," its to get lucky, which is the problem you moron
-Whimsicott (not like I'm arguing for everyone to run Whimsicott, as that would be overcentralization)
-Magic Coat shouldn't be considered niche in any way with the prevalence of hazard-setting leads. Mega Absol is in Limbo but is common enough in OU.
-Ground types do have to deal with confusion, but that's still temporary, unlike paralysis. You're also doing SE STAB damage to Klefki, the most common SwagPlayer.
-Own Tempo is crap, true. Most Pokemon with that ability have better options, save for Smeargle, who is going to get paralyzed immediately in that case. I'm just saying it's one of many options.
-I honestly thought there was a priority fire-type move. That was a dumb mistake on my part.
-There are plenty of pokemon with sound-based moves or infiltrator that will eventually hit, most likely.

None of these options are perfect, but if we're going to necessitate reliability, we might as well remove crits, damage ranges, 1-turn sleep, and so on. Pokemon is unreliable at its core. One unlucky move can change a match and that's still the case with Klefki.
 
Oh, to touch on that bit about luck. It's luck. Anyone can get lucky with hax and crits and beat the top player.

Mega Lucario shouldn't even have been banned. Should have just banned NP/SD on him and called it a day.
 
Well

How about banning Prankster altogether?

In all seriousness though, i think the problem is the T-Wave and Swagger combo. Alternatively Swagger & Prankster.
 
Prankster/swagger/twave combo should not be banned. It is highly strategic. Swagger has great synergy with foul play and twave also with ditto on the team. Its supposed to be a table turner move to change momentum of a battle. Even without swagger and prankster good players will still lose to less skilled players due to an important miss or an unfortunate critical hit. If you used more creative pokemon like wish and heal bell umbreon you wouldn't have a problem with swagplay prankster. Stop relying on cookie cutter builds that ignore anti swag play tactics. Every team should have at least one good counter to swagplay.

If swagger and prankster bothers smogon so much find middle ground and only allow one prankster pokemon used per team. I know you guys are loving the thrill for proposing all these BS bans. Smogon is the Ghetsis of pokemon.
 
Ban Swagger, Flatter, Confuse Ray, and Supersonic under a Confusion Clause, as well as any virtually synonymous moves I might've forgotten. Same concept as the Evasion Clause, except it plays out a bit differently. You can work around both effects, but they're both often enough just a giant luck mess.

Foul Play, Prankster, etc. are just ways of magnifying the fundamental threat of confusion. They are not the problem. There's no need for a complex ban when we already have a simple ban that fits existing ban philosophy.
 
The fact that NONE of you are giving ANY mention to Klefki running Safeguard is absolutely ridiculous.

You Safeguard when you see opposing Klefki, make sure you have enough speed to outprankster, and then switch in a safe counter. BOOM. IT'S ACTUALLY THAT EASY. Stop being babies and learn to counter sets.
 
Weird.

Dude, I run Safeguard on Klefki. Shuts down Swagplay and all I have to drop is one moveslot. There's also Substitute.
Whimsicott with Taunt breaks Klefki and gives you a free turn to set up a sub or leech seed or whatever you like. Free switch in if you want.
You still have to be in when they are or had used Safeguard in the last 5 turns. Otherwise the game because a luck feast. That is the problem, not that Swagplay is unbeatable, but that it is just frustrating luck based strait.
 

Worldtour

aka Swamp-Rocket
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
The fact that NONE of you are giving ANY mention to Klefki running Safeguard is absolutely ridiculous.
The fact that you have failed to present a well presented, non-condescending argument is absolutely ridiculous.

There are a lot of things you can run on Klefki and Safeguard is usually a waste of space other than to prevent confusion from a strategy that is uncompetitive as fuck.
 
Come on what are people even doing suggesting complex bans. Why do we NEED confusion in this game. Swagger, confuse ray, flatter, chatter, all of these moves have only one purpose, remove the skill from the game. You know, like moody and evasion. Confusion moves are dumb even without prankster, theres absolutely no reason to allow them, there never was. Seriously lets just get rid of this shit for good.
 
What is Whimsicott, for 400?


Hidden Power Fire, anyone? Throw in a fire gem or even expert belt if you want to guarantee it. Not saying you have to.


If you seriously think that, you suck at this game. I'm really disappointed in you.




You're actually pretty damn stupid. Sorry, just being honest.
I fixed my priority taunt, but considerring I often lose to whimsicott because I die of laughter every time I see it, I don't accept that response.

Did you just say to put a fire gem on Espeon? If you don't see the problem in that, then you're a lost cause.

I do suck at this game, but it's not because I am dumb or a bad theorymoner, it's because I am literally famous for misclicks and losing after going afk. Also, I really couldn't care less about you being "disappointed." You've done nothing to earn my respect and I don't really care if I get yours, so why would you bring that into this?

I'm also stupid, but nothing I've posted on this thread has been incorrect (or if it was, I fixed it ASAP). The only decent anti ban thoughts I've heard were from
 
POSITION: Complex ban (Ban the combination of Swagger + Foul Play)

As for the banning issue, I vote for the complex ban. The issues with SwaggerPlay have been well-stated above, but I don't think it is necessary to kill off a mediocre playstyle simply because Pokemon with a better ability can pull it off at a very low risk.

In practice, the success of the SwaggerPlay style would be wholly dependent on a Pokemon's speed. If Klefki never had Prankster, no one would bother using its SwaggerPlay + T-Wave simply based on how slow it is relative to the OU metagame. For anyone reading this, I challenge you to try running a SwaggerPlay set on Mandibuzz (which is possible) and see how far or broken that is.

The main issue is when Swagger is used in conjunction with Prankster. By ignoring the Speed tier entirely, the Pokemon is guaranteed a Swagger on the opponent, thus beginning the gamble of confusion. Couple that with a +1 Thunder Wave, and you basically have a 6-0 machine right there. This can be seen as a parallel to ParaFlinch Jirachi. Although it is certainly annoying to play against and does invoke luck, you can switch the Paralyzed pokemon out into a faster Pokemon that can kill Jirachi e.g. Garchomp or Keldeo. Prankster takes out the revenge-killing factor, thus leaving the player facing SwagPlay strategy in a constant dice role with not only one Pokemon, but every single Pokemon on its team. Even worse, the biggest aggressor of this strategy, Klefki, has a very good defensive typing that is not weak to any form of Priority move.

I understand that complex bans are annoying, but there is simply no need to axe a playstyle that is usable on multiple Pokemon when the strategy's main aggressors are Pokemon with the ability Prankster.

Thank you for reading.
Well, in this case, banning Prankster + Swagger + Foul Play is the most conservative position. As you have admitted, Swagger + Foul Play with low speed is not a good combo as it is not reliable especially if you cannot strike first to have a chance to get a free turn.

Without Foul Play, the Swagger user has to rely on its own offensive stats and moves in order to inflict damage outside of Confusion. This would make facing physically offensive Pokemon for the SwagPlay user more risky since SwagPlay users cannot use the opponent's offensive stats to KO a target.

So would Confuse Ray + Foul Play + Prankster be nearly as broken? Indeed, there would be less of an incentive to run Foul Play in that case.

---

Alternatively, one prankster SwagPlay user is a nuance, but facing an entire team is quite frustrating. Perhaps a limit of one Prankster + Swagger + Foul Play user per team.
 

wishes

clarity
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Well, in this case, banning Prankster + Swagger + Foul Play is the most conservative position. As you have admitted, Swagger + Foul Play with low speed is not a good combo as it is not reliable especially if you cannot strike first to have a chance to get a free turn.

Without Foul Play, the Swagger user has to rely on its own offensive stats and moves in order to inflict damage outside of Confusion. This would make facing physically offensive Pokemon for the SwagPlay user more risky since SwagPlay users cannot use the opponent's offensive stats to KO a target.

So would Confuse Ray + Foul Play + Prankster be nearly as broken? Indeed, there would be less of an incentive to run Foul Play in that case.
If anything it is more broken, as it cannot miss.
 
Any and every pokemon you mentioned loses if it hits itself in confusion after swagger enough times.
(Magic Bounce users you can simply Foul Play, there are also no viable users of Own Tempo)

That's it.
Any argument you can bring up loses to enough swaggering.
It's pretty absolute...
Safeguard? Nope, you're gonna hit yourself in confusion first.
Taunt? See above
Everything else? See above
My point is those pokemon all work more often than not. When you look at the amount of luck it takes to beat those pokemon with swag play, you might as well just use a real team and hope for crits, random freezes and paralysis off stuff like thunderbolt because they are just as likely to hax through a team.
 
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