SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)

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But how do you define "SwagPlay"? Swagger + Foul Play? Swagger + Prankster? Any confusion move at all?

If there's going to be a ban, we need to decide on the scope of it.
I was testing and Twave+Confuse ray+Foul Play+Pran sucks, you cannot kill walls or bulky mons.

Swagger+Pran or Swag+Foul Play need to be banned.
 
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Question 1: Why is it that we're just NOW deciding that this should be banned? Nobody complained about Prankster Pokemon doing this before, so why is it that in Gen VI people start complaining like whiny little bitches?

Question 2: Did everybody just look at Klefki and try to get rid of it, either for the SwagPlay thing OR because it's Jingle Keys?

Question 3: Aren't there other things more ban worthy anyway?
 
I tried to read all of the posts in the thread before posting myself to see some good arguments, and holy crap was that a mistake. There are some good arguments made by a few people, but the majority of this thread is pretty awful.

As for my opinion, I'll be honest, I'm a bit torn on the issue. We cannot totally eliminate luck from the metagame, as by doing such so many mechanics need to change that the game is no longer Pokemon. However, we need to look at the SwagPlay combination and see what differentiates it from other luck-based moves and abilities.

The main differences are the chance of being negatively affected, the impact of bad luck and whether the user or opponent is more affected by it.

  • Confusion has a 50% chance of negatively affecting a Pokemon per turn. Full Paralysis only occurs 25% of the time, while most imperfect accuracy moves have between a 5% (elemental fangs,) and 30% chance (Focus Blast,) of missing. Also keep in mind that, when combined with Prankster, the opponent only gets to avert risking that 50% chance if they switch on the turn they use Swagger (or otherwise use Magic Bounce or something similar.) Without priority, confusion moves only force that chance upon the opponent if they cannot switch or are slower. If using an imperfect accuracy confusion move the chance is further lowered depending on the move's accuracy and the confusion chance.
  • When your Pokemon hurts itself in confusion, it not only loses HP, but gives the opponent a free turn. Swagger amplifies this by doubling the confusion damage and allowing for Foul Play to deal double damage. In many cases it only takes one bad confusion roll to leave one of your Pokemon crippled or KO'd. While Paralysis also has the chance to take a turn from you, it not only does it less often, but doesn't deal self-damage. You could argue that Infatuation activates as common as Confusion, but it is harder to inflict (due to genders,) and also doesn't deal self-damage. While missing a Hydro Pump can be game-changing, it's dependent on when it happens.
  • One major argument against SwagPlay is that it forces the coinflip on the opponent instead of it being entirely on you. If you run Focus Blast or Stone Edge, that is entirely your choice, and they're reliable enough that the opponent should be ready for them. Swagger forces the opponent to take that chance instead when they could build their team in such a way as to minimize the impact of luck. Turning the game into a gamble isn't competitive.

Anyone that's arguing that SwagPlay is just like other luck-based elements is basically wrong.

Now, there's the issue of countering it. Let me start by saying that suggesting something as an answer to itself is ridiculous. If something is needed to stop itself, it shouldn't be part of the game. There are other answers to the strategy, of course, but they're really niche. Suggesting that every team contain an Own Tempo or Magic Bounce user is very limiting. I think this part's been discussed to death, but the main thing to take here is that good answers are both few in number and low in quality. It has been brought up that the strategy is hurt by switching, but I have an issue with this. While this will stop the opponent from getting Swagger to do anything, it does not stop SwagPlay users from using Foul Play, Substitute or Thunder Wave. For those of you who've suggested switch-stalling something's Swagger PP; how many of you have actually done that?

Now, I'm not the kind of person to suggest bans at the drop of a hat, but I don't see how banning this strategy hurts the metagame at all. Some would like to defend variety, but the metagame still has plenty of variety without SwagPlay teams. If anything, not having to worry about having an answer to the team type is more important. For those who hate the idea of not being able to use the strategy, I need to wonder why you're so hell-bent on using such an inconsistent strategy. It's not like you're at a loss for actually good strategies that work consistently.

I think SwagPlay primarily serves to create a metagame in which winning is not based on skill, and as such a metagame where winning is not the primary goal. A metagame in which you do not play to win is not a metagame at all. I'm of the opinion that banning Swagger is absolutely sufficient. It doesn't impair any non-luck-based strategies, and I don't think that Pranksters nor the singular Pokemon are unhealthy for the metagame. While Swagger on non-Prankster Pokemon isn't as big an issue, it's still potentially frustrating (and I can't imagine a serious player being impeded by the ban.)

(Side note: If you reply to this message in a non-intelligent manner, do not expect a reply back. Otherwise I'm all-ears as far as conversation and debate goes.)
 
I tried to read all of the posts in the thread before posting myself to see some good arguments, and holy crap was that a mistake. There are some good arguments made by a few people, but the majority of this thread is pretty awful.

As for my opinion, I'll be honest, I'm a bit torn on the issue. We cannot totally eliminate luck from the metagame, as by doing such so many mechanics need to change that the game is no longer Pokemon. However, we need to look at the SwagPlay combination and see what differentiates it from other luck-based moves and abilities.

The main differences are the chance of being negatively affected, the impact of bad luck and whether the user or opponent is more affected by it.

  • Confusion has a 50% chance of negatively affecting a Pokemon per turn. Full Paralysis only occurs 25% of the time, while most imperfect accuracy moves have between a 5% (elemental fangs,) and 30% chance (Focus Blast,) of missing. Also keep in mind that, when combined with Prankster, the opponent only gets to avert risking that 50% chance if they switch on the turn they use Swagger (or otherwise use Magic Bounce or something similar.) Without priority, confusion moves only force that chance upon the opponent if they cannot switch or are slower. If using an imperfect accuracy confusion move the chance is further lowered depending on the move's accuracy and the confusion chance.
  • When your Pokemon hurts itself in confusion, it not only loses HP, but gives the opponent a free turn. Swagger amplifies this by doubling the confusion damage and allowing for Foul Play to deal double damage. In many cases it only takes one bad confusion roll to leave one of your Pokemon crippled or KO'd. While Paralysis also has the chance to take a turn from you, it not only does it less often, but doesn't deal self-damage. You could argue that Infatuation activates as common as Confusion, but it is harder to inflict (due to genders,) and also doesn't deal self-damage. While missing a Hydro Pump can be game-changing, it's dependent on when it happens.
  • One major argument against SwagPlay is that it forces the coinflip on the opponent instead of it being entirely on you. If you run Focus Blast or Stone Edge, that is entirely your choice, and they're reliable enough that the opponent should be ready for them. Swagger forces the opponent to take that chance instead when they could build their team in such a way as to minimize the impact of luck. Turning the game into a gamble isn't competitive.

Anyone that's arguing that SwagPlay is just like other luck-based elements is basically wrong.

Now, there's the issue of countering it. Let me start by saying that suggesting something as an answer to itself is ridiculous. If something is needed to stop itself, it shouldn't be part of the game. There are other answers to the strategy, of course, but they're really niche. Suggesting that every team contain an Own Tempo or Magic Bounce user is very limiting. I think this part's been discussed to death, but the main thing to take here is that good answers are both few in number and low in quality. It has been brought up that the strategy is hurt by switching, but I have an issue with this. While this will stop the opponent from getting Swagger to do anything, it does not stop SwagPlay users from using Foul Play, Substitute or Thunder Wave. For those of you who've suggested switch-stalling something's Swagger PP; how many of you have actually done that?

Now, I'm not the kind of person to suggest bans at the drop of a hat, but I don't see how banning this strategy hurts the metagame at all. Some would like to defend variety, but the metagame still has plenty of variety without SwagPlay teams. If anything, not having to worry about having an answer to the team type is more important. For those who hate the idea of not being able to use the strategy, I need to wonder why you're so hell-bent on using such an inconsistent strategy. It's not like you're at a loss for actually good strategies that work consistently.

I think SwagPlay primarily serves to create a metagame in which winning is not based on skill, and as such a metagame where winning is not the primary goal. A metagame in which you do not play to win is not a metagame at all. I'm of the opinion that banning Swagger is absolutely sufficient. It doesn't impair any non-luck-based strategies, and I don't think that Pranksters nor the singular Pokemon are unhealthy for the metagame. While Swagger on non-Prankster Pokemon isn't as big an issue, it's still potentially frustrating (and I can't imagine a serious player being impeded by the ban.)

(Side note: If you reply to this message in a non-intelligent manner, do not expect a reply back. Otherwise I'm all-ears as far as conversation and debate goes.)
What is your opinion on banning Confuse Ray? It's seen on several non-Prankster users, whereas Swagger's only non-Prankster users are Umbreon and Quagsire.

EDIT: And Shuckle, Aron and Zygarde in Ubers. What.

EDIT2: And Clefable in OU.
 
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This is one of the most ridiculous ideas for a ban that's ever been seriously considered by this community. Pokemon is, at its core, a luck/strategy based game. There is strategy played entirely around luck. Some moves are superior to others for having chances of side effects occurring (ie. 10% chance to flinch, higher crit chance, etc.). The reason evasion was (fairly) banned was that one turn of luck can spiral out of control. If the first double team allows you to evade, you can pull off more until you're essentially untouchable when behind a substitute. But Swagger can only confuse you. It's not as if further confusion makes you less likely to hit. All the opponent can do is hide behind a substitute and throw status at you, but they'll never make it less likely for your parafused Pokemon to actually hit after that point.

This is all coming from someone who despises Prankster abusers. There are abilities and moves that only exist to counter other luck-based strategies. Moves that don't check accuracy, Own Tempo, Magic Coat, Taunt, Magic Bounce, Inner Focus, and the list goes on. No one is seriously considering banning Togekiss, after all. When you say a luck-based metagame ruins fun or is somehow against the spirit of competitive play, you undermine the very core of almost any game played competitively sans some board games.
 
When I think about it more, banning Confuse Ray and others is probably only necessary, if people try new ways to use Swagplay in the same way as Funbro. The thing about Swagger is that it has a far wider distribution than Confuse Ray, Flatter and Sweet Kiss (kek), and only Swagger has an exploitable secondary effect. Maybe, were Swagger(+Prankster) banned, would Confuse Ray Sableye become a thing, but I would assume the disruptive effect is far less drastic - at worst, I only see it stalling with WoW / Toxic. You probably couldn't make a full team of that anyway.
 
When I think about it more, banning Confuse Ray and others is probably only necessary, if people try new ways to use Swagplay in the same way as Funbro. The thing about Swagger is that it has a far wider distribution than Confuse Ray, Flatter and Sweet Kiss (kek), and only Swagger has an exploitable secondary effect. Maybe, were Swagger(+Prankster) banned, would Confuse Ray Sableye become a thing, but I would assume the disruptive effect is far less drastic - at worst, I only see it stalling with WoW / Toxic. You probably couldn't make a full team of that anyway.
I agree with you, but I also think banning Confuse Ray won't be necessary. Unlike the Funbro situation, taking the Swagger out of SwagPlay nerfs it significantly and nothing can get around that.
 

Aragorn the King

Off the Deep End
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
I tried to read all of the posts in the thread before posting myself to see some good arguments, and holy crap was that a mistake. There are some good arguments made by a few people, but the majority of this thread is pretty awful.

As for my opinion, I'll be honest, I'm a bit torn on the issue. We cannot totally eliminate luck from the metagame, as by doing such so many mechanics need to change that the game is no longer Pokemon. However, we need to look at the SwagPlay combination and see what differentiates it from other luck-based moves and abilities.

The main differences are the chance of being negatively affected, the impact of bad luck and whether the user or opponent is more affected by it.

  • Confusion has a 50% chance of negatively affecting a Pokemon per turn. Full Paralysis only occurs 25% of the time, while most imperfect accuracy moves have between a 5% (elemental fangs,) and 30% chance (Focus Blast,) of missing. Also keep in mind that, when combined with Prankster, the opponent only gets to avert risking that 50% chance if they switch on the turn they use Swagger (or otherwise use Magic Bounce or something similar.) Without priority, confusion moves only force that chance upon the opponent if they cannot switch or are slower. If using an imperfect accuracy confusion move the chance is further lowered depending on the move's accuracy and the confusion chance.
  • When your Pokemon hurts itself in confusion, it not only loses HP, but gives the opponent a free turn. Swagger amplifies this by doubling the confusion damage and allowing for Foul Play to deal double damage. In many cases it only takes one bad confusion roll to leave one of your Pokemon crippled or KO'd. While Paralysis also has the chance to take a turn from you, it not only does it less often, but doesn't deal self-damage. You could argue that Infatuation activates as common as Confusion, but it is harder to inflict (due to genders,) and also doesn't deal self-damage. While missing a Hydro Pump can be game-changing, it's dependent on when it happens.
  • One major argument against SwagPlay is that it forces the coinflip on the opponent instead of it being entirely on you. If you run Focus Blast or Stone Edge, that is entirely your choice, and they're reliable enough that the opponent should be ready for them. Swagger forces the opponent to take that chance instead when they could build their team in such a way as to minimize the impact of luck. Turning the game into a gamble isn't competitive.

Anyone that's arguing that SwagPlay is just like other luck-based elements is basically wrong.

Now, there's the issue of countering it. Let me start by saying that suggesting something as an answer to itself is ridiculous. If something is needed to stop itself, it shouldn't be part of the game. There are other answers to the strategy, of course, but they're really niche. Suggesting that every team contain an Own Tempo or Magic Bounce user is very limiting. I think this part's been discussed to death, but the main thing to take here is that good answers are both few in number and low in quality. It has been brought up that the strategy is hurt by switching, but I have an issue with this. While this will stop the opponent from getting Swagger to do anything, it does not stop SwagPlay users from using Foul Play, Substitute or Thunder Wave. For those of you who've suggested switch-stalling something's Swagger PP; how many of you have actually done that?

Now, I'm not the kind of person to suggest bans at the drop of a hat, but I don't see how banning this strategy hurts the metagame at all. Some would like to defend variety, but the metagame still has plenty of variety without SwagPlay teams. If anything, not having to worry about having an answer to the team type is more important. For those who hate the idea of not being able to use the strategy, I need to wonder why you're so hell-bent on using such an inconsistent strategy. It's not like you're at a loss for actually good strategies that work consistently.

I think SwagPlay primarily serves to create a metagame in which winning is not based on skill, and as such a metagame where winning is not the primary goal. A metagame in which you do not play to win is not a metagame at all. I'm of the opinion that banning Swagger is absolutely sufficient. It doesn't impair any non-luck-based strategies, and I don't think that Pranksters nor the singular Pokemon are unhealthy for the metagame. While Swagger on non-Prankster Pokemon isn't as big an issue, it's still potentially frustrating (and I can't imagine a serious player being impeded by the ban.)

(Side note: If you reply to this message in a non-intelligent manner, do not expect a reply back. Otherwise I'm all-ears as far as conversation and debate goes.)
The only thing I disagree with you on is about banning Swagger. Not all of my teams have a Quagsire/Unaware Clefable, and not all of my Quagsire/Clefables have swagger, but using Swagger on them to annoy physical attackers that can't break through them is a viable strategy. In fact, Swagsire is one of the best counters to Scizor around. I don't think Swagger itself is a broken move. It's mostly the combination of Prankster + Swagger + Substitute + Thunder Wave + Foul Play on 6 members of someone's team that bothers me. Alright, I admit, it's still pretty broken if it's only on one Pokemon on a team, so if we ban anything, I hope it's Swagger + Prankster.
 
Again, if you're not preparing a piece of your team to deal with something like Klefki, you seriously need to git gud. I'm not even trolling, I could care less for trolling in this thread. I'm saying this because I legitimately don't have much trouble dealing with Klefki or other Prankster users.
I don't have trouble with Klefki either, but you could say the same thing about evasion spam and Funbro. "Git gud" isn't going to convince anyone even if it's true.
 

eaglehawk

I COULD BE BANNED!
idk if this has been suggested yet but limiting swagger to one pokémon per team should be enough. Swagger per se is a legitimate move in many cases and so is Klefki, so it'd get rid of an uncompetitive kind of team while still allowing people to gamble with a move that can backfire (like pretty much everything that has a chance to fail) and preserving a pokémon that can offer much more than brainless swagger spam.
Your suggestion would do absolutely nothing. You only need one Pokemon with Swagger + Prankster to completely win a 6-0 purely by luck.
 
I don't have trouble with Klefki either, but you could say the same thing about evasion spam and Funbro. "Git gud" isn't going to convince anyone even if it's true.
Honestly, you can't compare Swagplay to evasion spam. It's a totally different matter.
With evasion, you're boosting yourself to become unhittable by any member of their team. With swagplay, you're confusing a single opposing pokemon and hoping they don't hit you.

It's like nobody here uses Safeguard, Taunt, or Substitute. Come on people.
 
This is one of the most ridiculous ideas for a ban that's ever been seriously considered by this community. Pokemon is, at its core, a luck/strategy based game. There is strategy played entirely around luck. Some moves are superior to others for having chances of side effects occurring (ie. 10% chance to flinch, higher crit chance, etc.). The reason evasion was (fairly) banned was that one turn of luck can spiral out of control. If the first double team allows you to evade, you can pull off more until you're essentially untouchable when behind a substitute. But Swagger can only confuse you. It's not as if further confusion makes you less likely to hit. All the opponent can do is hide behind a substitute and throw status at you, but they'll never make it less likely for your parafused Pokemon to actually hit after that point.

This is all coming from someone who despises Prankster abusers. There are abilities and moves that only exist to counter other luck-based strategies. Moves that don't check accuracy, Own Tempo, Magic Coat, Taunt, Magic Bounce, Inner Focus, and the list goes on. No one is seriously considering banning Togekiss, after all. When you say a luck-based metagame ruins fun or is somehow against the spirit of competitive play, you undermine the very core of almost any game played competitively sans some board games.
Yeah, Own Tempo users like Lilligant, Lickilicky, Grumpig, Purugly, Spinda, Avalugg and the slowmons, because i doesnt need regenerator.
And Xatu/Espeon can take STAB Foul Play all the day.
C'mon, Garchomp is a best example.
Luck is only one part of the game, and i never lost vs swagplay, but i doesnt need it on the tier.


Again, if swagplay can be checked or countered isent the point.
The question is: why we need swagplay?
 
All those require use on the switch in. In the swagster gets in without you having the effects listed already in play, the match turns into a coin flip. Yeah, not competitive in the slightest.

Edit: the quote part didn't go through....but this was to Balsty
 
You can't ban Swagger outright. It's never been banned in previous generations and would be pointless to ban at this time.

Prankster Swagger + Foul Play, yes. Because I've led with Klefki and taken 3/6 out with just that combination and a little bit of RNG luck.

Prankster + Swagger, no. Because we still haven't banned Thundurus-I for abusing Prankster T-Wave, so why should a less serious and only temporary inconvenience, that can easily be switched out of, be any issue when /apparently/ Prankster T-Wave isn't even being acknowledged as an issue yet? Remember: Prankster T-Wave ruins everyone's day. Prankster Swagger only ruins Physical Offense's day, and even then it's just temporary. (Seriously, somebody take a look at Prankster T-wave, that shit is just as annoying this gen as it was in Gen 5, if not MORE annoying because more things can do it now. [Klefki and Meowstic primarily])

Ban no Pokemon. There's no need for it. Never suggest that without reasoning.

Do NOT ban confusion. It's a mechanic. A TEMPORARY one at that.

I mean think about it this way:

-Prankster + Swagger = First move confusion, then what? A turn of setup or two? Nothing seriously threatening if SwagPlay is banned. Not to mention the opponent can switch (WHOA) and easily be rid of confusion and pull in something that's SpA based (because swagger will do shit all of nothing to it) or, hey, we could start actually using Lum Berry if we're all soooooo scared of Confusion.

-Prankster + Thunder Wave = First Move Paralysis, opponent may not get a move off because of paralysis, opponent has one crippled pokemon the entire match unless they carry cleric for aromatherapy/etc, easily usable on an entire team (bar ground types) and can very much sway a match's outcome. And as a reference to the previous bullet point's Lum Berry suggestion, Prankster T-Wave hurts Pokemon that can't afford to carry a Lum Berry. Pokemon that like Air Balloon mostly.

tl;dr

Ban SwagPlay
Don't ban Prankster + Swagger (unless you're going to also ban Prankster T-Wave)
No Pokemon bans
Do NOT ban confusion
Take a long, hard look at Prankster T-Wave.

Footnote: This suggestion seems like someone got mad one too many times at Klefki and was just too dense to run safeguard to be quite honest.
 
This entire game is on a slippery slope. If you sit in with your physical attacker and let a +4 foul play kill you, there seems to be your problem. Switch out.

Not everything in pokemon can be countered. With 18 types, two classes of attacks, and a variety of gameplay, you can't be prepared for everything.

I urge everyone to think on this. This is really starting down a crazy ban-everything path. Were on the verge of opening other topics for "discussion", of which I won't mention.
 

Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
is a Pre-Contributor
I think banning swagger as a whole would be the best option here, getting rid of confusion all together is cool too.
We've all seen a swag-play team, and we've all lost to one.
You can say just use a defensive wall, but any defensive wall will die to +6 hurting itself multiple times, because the opponent will probably just get THAT lucky.
You can say safeguard or Taunt, but nobody uses the former and Prankster outspeeds the latter, and the pokemon can just hurt itself, preventing a taunt.
Any actual argument against swag-play can just be defeated if you get lucky enough with Swagger.
(And lickylicky sucks.)
It's just straight up retarded, please ban.
 
You can't ban Swagger outright. It's never been banned in previous generations and would be pointless to ban at this time.

Prankster Swagger + Foul Play, yes. Because I've led with Klefki and taken 3/6 out with just that combination and a little bit of RNG luck.

Prankster + Swagger, no. Because we still haven't banned Thundurus-I for abusing Prankster T-Wave, so why should a less serious and only temporary inconvenience, that can easily be switched out of, be any issue when /apparently/ Prankster T-Wave isn't even being acknowledged as an issue yet? Remember: Prankster T-Wave ruins everyone's day. Prankster Swagger only ruins Physical Offense's day, and even then it's just temporary. (Seriously, somebody take a look at Prankster T-wave, that shit is just as annoying this gen as it was in Gen 5, if not MORE annoying because more things can do it now. [Klefki and Meowstic primarily])

Ban no Pokemon. There's no need for it. Never suggest that without reasoning.

Do NOT ban confusion. It's a mechanic. A TEMPORARY one at that.

I mean think about it this way:

-Prankster + Swagger = First move confusion, then what? A turn of setup or two? Nothing seriously threatening if SwagPlay is banned. Not to mention the opponent can switch (WHOA) and easily be rid of confusion and pull in something that's SpA based (because swagger will do shit all of nothing to it) or, hey, we could start actually using Lum Berry if we're all soooooo scared of Confusion.

-Prankster + Thunder Wave = First Move Paralysis, opponent may not get a move off because of paralysis, opponent has one crippled pokemon the entire match unless they carry cleric for aromatherapy/etc, easily usable on an entire team (bar ground types) and can very much sway a match's outcome. And as a reference to the previous bullet point's Lum Berry suggestion, Prankster T-Wave hurts Pokemon that can't afford to carry a Lum Berry. Pokemon that like Air Balloon mostly.

tl;dr

Ban SwagPlay
Don't ban Prankster + Swagger (unless you're going to also ban Prankster T-Wave)
No Pokemon bans
Do NOT ban confusion
Take a long, hard look at Prankster T-Wave.

Footnote: This suggestion seems like someone got mad one too many times at Klefki and was just too dense to run safeguard to be quite honest.
Just to point out, just because we never banned Swagger before means nothing. Sure, Swagger hasn't changed in itself, but the point is it does nothing but add luck. Maybe we made the mistake of not banning it before?
 
Honestly, you can't compare Swagplay to evasion spam. It's a totally different matter.
With evasion, you're boosting yourself to become unhittable by any member of their team. With swagplay, you're confusing a single opposing pokemon and hoping they don't hit you.

It's like nobody here uses Safeguard, Taunt, or Substitute. Come on people.
Kind of hard to get any of those moves up when you're hitting yourself in confusion.
 

eaglehawk

I COULD BE BANNED!
POSITION: Complex ban (Ban the combination of Swagger + Foul Play)

As for the banning issue, I vote for the complex ban. The issues with SwaggerPlay have been well-stated above, but I don't think it is necessary to kill off a mediocre playstyle simply because Pokemon with a better ability can pull it off at a very low risk.

In practice, the success of the SwaggerPlay style would be wholly dependent on a Pokemon's speed. If Klefki never had Prankster, no one would bother using its SwaggerPlay + T-Wave simply based on how slow it is relative to the OU metagame. For anyone reading this, I challenge you to try running a SwaggerPlay set on Mandibuzz (which is possible) and see how far or broken that is.

The main issue is when Swagger is used in conjunction with Prankster. By ignoring the Speed tier entirely, the Pokemon is guaranteed a Swagger on the opponent, thus beginning the gamble of confusion. Couple that with a +1 Thunder Wave, and you basically have a 6-0 machine right there. This can be seen as a parallel to ParaFlinch Jirachi. Although it is certainly annoying to play against and does invoke luck, you can switch the Paralyzed pokemon out into a faster Pokemon that can kill Jirachi e.g. Garchomp or Keldeo. Prankster takes out the revenge-killing factor, thus leaving the player facing SwagPlay strategy in a constant dice role with not only one Pokemon, but every single Pokemon on its team. Even worse, the biggest aggressor of this strategy, Klefki, has a very good defensive typing that is not weak to any form of Priority move.

I understand that complex bans are annoying, but there is simply no need to axe a playstyle that is usable on multiple Pokemon when the strategy's main aggressors are Pokemon with the ability Prankster.

Thank you for reading.
 
This completely imo, swagger + foul play just brings too much luck into the game. By the way people, this is not a slippery slope. There is a clear line between a shitty gimmick strategy and a "roll the dice" strategy such as this. The distinction should be made against strategies which are both non-gimmicky and lower the game into nothing more than pure RNG (Moody, Double Team, Sand Veil, this).
 

Rurushu

Sleepless Strategist
is a Past WCoP Champion
Your suggestion would do absolutely nothing. You only need one Pokemon with Swagger + Prankster to completely win a 6-0 purely by luck.

That's extremely unlikely to happen both because it'd require huge amounts of luck and because most teams end up having something that can deal with it. We shouldn't just ban stuff that can be used in a legitimate way just to avoid a very unlikely scenario that can easily be dealt with.
 

eaglehawk

I COULD BE BANNED!
That's extremely unlikely to happen both because it'd require huge amounts of luck and because most teams end up having something that can deal with it. We shouldn't just ban stuff that can be used in a legitimate way just to avoid a very unlikely scenario that can easily be avoided.
I understand it's luck, but when the odds of a Pokemon hurting you versus a Pokemon hurting themselves is heavily in your favor.

Rather than restating my argument, I would like to hear what are your counters to this SwagPlay style Rurushu.
 
Here is what I had said earlier about this:

I definitely believe Prankster Swagger deserves a ban. Swagger doesn't add any depth to the game and only serves to make the worse player win through RNG. For me at least, it isn't even just about "the worse player winning." When I played on the ladder with a team that focused on prankster swagger, opponents just straight up quit. What would cause that otherwise strange behavior? They quit because they don't want to deal with that bullshit, it just isn't fun. They'll take the lose of points and not deal with the BS because in their mind, time is better spent on another battle where they can engage in strategy rather than a series of time-wasting coinflips.

When a element detracts from the competitiveness of the game, it isn't just the wins of johnny tourplayer on the line, but the actual enjoyment of the game. As a site focused on competitive Pokemon, I think it is fairly safe to assume that the majority of the userbase derives their enjoyment from the strategy and competition that occurs in battles. Yes, fun is subjective and people enjoy different things, but considering the site's focus and my own personal experience, that is the type of fun is what we should be trying to appeal to. Bans on elements of the game such as OHKO moves, Evasion, Moody, and now Prankster Swagger isn't to prevent an overbearing force from taking over the metagame, but to preserve the fun that can be had when playing Pokemon.

Considering all that, I think keeping an element like Prankster Swagger in the game is silly just to keep a tidier banlist.

Question 1: Why is it that we're just NOW deciding that this should be banned? Nobody complained about Prankster Pokemon doing this before, so why is it that in Gen VI people start complaining like whiny little bitches?

Question 2: Did everybody just look at Klefki and try to get rid of it, either for the SwagPlay thing OR because it's Jingle Keys?

Question 3: Aren't there other things more ban worthy anyway?
I don't know whether it's because it has to do with the community getting bigger or the introduction of a lot newer players, but a larger amount of people don't care about "reputation" for using cheap strategies or just being uncompetitive. We saw people figuring out ways to force endless games, winning by time stalling opponents. Now SwagPlay has cropped up as a way to get wins without effort through coinflips or by just frustrating the opponent. So to answer your question in bold, its just that there are more people in the competitive poke community being little shits and seeking out the most uncompetitive ways to win.

And no its not because of Klefki.
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Here is a guy who went through the effort to get empircal evidence on SwagPlay. It shows SwagPlay is getting more wins than losses. I beg everyone in this thread to read it.
 
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