SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)

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So, the main arguments for banning this is that it can potentially limit team building by forcing people to run something that can counter it, and that it takes no skill to use.

Also that it creates a coin toss scenario.

If it gets banned, then it creates a slippery slope of other things that fall under the same reasoning for being banned.

Talonflame takes no skill to use and limits team building by forcing people to run a check to it such as Rotom-W.

If you ban this, ban Talonflame+Gale Wings, and the metagame will balance out a little better because less people will resort to Rotom-W for walling Talonflame.

If you're not willing to do that, ban nothing and keep it the way it is.
That is not even beginning to be an appropriate summary. The main issue is that there are remarkably few true counters because even what people think may be a hard counter can be killed by a bad roll.

Also your comparison makes no sense outside of being a hilarious fallacy. Talonflame doesn't prevent the player from moving and can be countered as such. It doesn't rely on rng rolls to accomplish what it does. Please stop with the slippery slope arguments people, they don't hold water.
 

jrrrrrrr

wubwubwub
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Let's decide this with a tournament if they're seriously thinking about banning it. Make someone actually win a tournament using SwagPlay, we'll see these ban votes dry up reaallllll fast
 
Okay, time to hop into the cesspool again. Here's my opinion on the whole situation:

I don't think that banning confusion moves as a whole is the result we're looking for here. The reason why Prankster + Swagger is significantly better than something like Prankster + Confuse Ray or Prankster + Flatter is because Swagger increases the amount of recoil damage that you take. Yeah, while Prankster + Confuse Ray is annoying, it's not the same hitting yourself under regular confusion than hitting yourself after a +2 effect, which does a significantly greater amount of damage. Therefore, I think banning Passive Confusion moves as a whole is just a silly idea, since they're mediocre with Prankster as is, and without Prankster, they're pretty abysmal.

Personally, I'd rather it not be banned, since it's one of those very high risk / very high reward situations. However, I understand that we are trying to make it so that the more skilled player usually wins a game, which is what Prankster + Swagger eliminates (RIP Stone_Cold)

  • ban the move Swagger;
Absolutely not the best choice of action. Without Prankster, Swagger would never be used in situations where this would be considered an issue (maybe save the rare ladder raging CTC or something). Prankster is the only thing that even makes Swagger somewhat remotely reliable.
  • ban the move Swagger in conjunction with the ability Prankster (complex ban);
As much as complex bans are annoying, this is probably the best choice of action if something were to come out of this. You directly solve the problem at the source this way. If Swagger by some reason still seems like it is an issue, this can just be re discussed.
  • ban individual Pokémon that make the strategy effective (Klefki, Liepard etc.).
Nah, this is just silly. Prankster Pokemon are not broken. In fact, they have some very key roles in keeping the balance of the Metagame by having a priority Thunder Wave that can put a halt to some deadly sweepers.

These are my two cents.

P.S. Haunter is my hero and I suck n_n
Edit2: WOW STEALTH EDIT SUCH BULL
Edit:
Let's decide this with a tournament if they're seriously thinking about banning it. Make someone actually win a tournament using SwagPlay, we'll see these ban votes dry up reaallllll fast
The reason that this came up was during R1 of OST, where Stone_Cold defeated Lady Gaga easily Game 1, and lost to Swag play games 2 and 3, with Lady Gaga making the point "I can't win with skill, I'll win with Swagger"
 
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Monte Cristo

Banned deucer.
So, the main arguments for banning this is that it can potentially limit team building by forcing people to run something that can counter it, and that it takes no skill to use.

Also that it creates a coin toss scenario.

If it gets banned, then it creates a slippery slope of other things that fall under the same reasoning for being banned.

Talonflame takes no skill to use and limits team building by forcing people to run a check to it such as Rotom-W.

If you ban this, ban Talonflame+Gale Wings, and the metagame will balance out a little better because less people will resort to Rotom-W for walling Talonflame.

If you're not willing to do that, ban nothing and keep it the way it is.
No
Just No

Do people really not get the point of this at all?

Prankster Confusion is based on pure luck factor decided by something you can't control, even the most anti swagprank pokemon get LUCKED out hint: I used LUCK in that sentance.

Talonflame takes skill to use, you use brave bird on a fucking scarfed thundy-t you die, end of story, talonflame can't play lucky with thundy and win despite all oods

However lets say klefki meets heatran, heatran would usually win but with klefki swaggerparasubbing heatran is overlucked and won against.

I believe something should be banned if it's a 100% roll of the dice to win the situation against even counters. And I don't mean raw side effects, I mean taking account the possibility of being able to switch in and the possibility of being able to out speeding it, which you can't do with PRANKSTER. Not only can you not outspeed prankster, it's literally a +1 priority roll of the dice on most users that resist common other priority in this metagame creating a literally luck based uncounterable situation. I hope you get what I mean.
 

Deluks917

Ride on Shooting Star
A serious issue is that prankster swagger can be used to give an approx 50% chance of stopping a mon from sweeping cold. And higher of letting only 1-2 mons die. In testing klefki saved me in multiple games on literal (weghted) coinflips.

I am not some expert player but I am decent enough to reliably stay in top 15-30 on leader-board without problems. Probably this means the majority of games are at my level of play and below. In my opinion prankster-swag is a strong strategy not some gimmick. Presumably I was not the only one sent the pastebin team of deo-D/klefki/ditto/thunderus/mega-lucaro/X (could be liepard or a non-taunter) since I saw it everywhere. This team was very strong. A version of it will b strong with something over lucario. I do not think the strategy is over powered. But I think it is viable and introduces way too much luck into pokemon.

The use senable has 6 replays using this team. The games from mike tails to jpex are all using this team. Here is mike tails: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-87219550

I am strongly opposed to banning the amount of pokemon needed to kill this strategy. And if we are going to take steps to handle this problem we might as well really handle it.

I support either just ban swagger or ban swagger + prankster.
 
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I think that we shouldn't ban confusion Ray because it doesn't boost your attack most swag players use the boosted attack from swagger to hit you harder with foul play while your pokemon hits itself or can't move to due to being paralyzed. We should ban only prankster and swagger
 
That ubers player is terrible.
I've beaten people in ubers with my UU/RU teams.
So I'm not really sure that's saying much...
...It's a Purrloin. It's not even a team of six SwagPlayers. It's one freaking Purrloin. It doesn't matter if he's bad, he's using titans like Darkrai, Giratina, and Zekrom, all felled by.... wait for it... A PURRLOIN. If that doesn't say much, I don't know what does.
 
I feel Dragon rage may become too powerful as it always does 40 damage, whereas sonicboom always does 20 damage. It simply will become too stressful in matches if you are the adversary using sonicboom, hoping for a critical hit.
First of all, we are obviously also removing critical hits from all metagames offered by Pokemon Showdown!©.

Secondly, the fact there are merely two usable moves make Choice Scarf a very viable item choice on the vast majority of pokemon, as it allows you to avoid speed ties and outspeed non-scarfed pokemon. This, coupled with the fact that every single legal move has an immunity (Seismic Toss and Sonic Boom won't hit Ghost types, Night Shade does not hit Normal types and Fairy types are immune to Dragon Rage), means that it becomes a good idea to run pokemon on your team that serve as counters, forcing the opponent to switch.
Thus the game becomes very much about outplaying your opponent while whittling them down, and both stall and hyperoffense remain viable in a harmonous metagame.
Now, if there had been a Fairy type pokemon that could use Dragon Rage it would obviously have to be banned for upsetting the OU metagame, but as there isn't, the tiers will remain balanced for now. There is no problem.
 
I don't see the point in banning this because while it is reliant on luck, it's just not very good. I never see them after a certain point on the ladder, and, while I realize that personal anecdotes aren't always the best way to decide whether something is overpowered or not, I personally have never had an issue with these teams.

Because these teams aren't at the top of the ladder, that says to me that skill trumps luck in this case an overwhelming majority of the time. It's not like evasion, which any mon can take advantage of at any time and can turn a losing situation into a winning one. Swagplay requires that your opponents team has a lot of mons who take high confusion + foul play damage, have little to no recovery, and are mostly susceptible to paralysis. The only team archetype like this is HO, which ironically is 100x more overpowered than swag play at the moment. Shit like Pinsir and Deoxys-D should be banned way before we consider stuff like this that only affects the bottom and middle of the ladder.

In short: stop being pussies and play better.
 
This seems a little bit over the top, guys. Though, I do understand the frustration of players relying on RNG to dictate who wins. Now that is a little bit ban-worthy, because it's Pokemon giving bad players an auto-pilot, or, Pokemon that literally, play the game for the player. This I am against. Now, I don't think that it's the confusion moves that are making this annoying, but the ability Prankster. Because it gives a priority over someone's combat move, with only a few Pokemon that can out-smart it.
Talonflame, Mamoswine, Greninja(Shadow Sneak), Dragonite/Lucario(Espeed) and maybe a few others can put this down. But, the only ones that I find to be decent would have to be Talonflame and Dragonite, as the others may lack either the stat, or the speed to do this before getting confused.
Another point, the effects of Swagger go away after switching out. So, if your opponent is also smart while using such teams, they'll predict when you switch to Swagger again. This can be very frustrating, as you can feel almost locked down.

Okay, after all the basic stuff, let's get deep.

Swagger isn't very good on something such as a Physical Sweeper, as they'll be able to abuse the attack boost. Which can be the complete backfire of confusing a Pokemon with Swagger, as something like Talonflame could spam Roost until it heals, then go for a nice sweep. This means it may not be full auto-pilot, but a dumbed down version of Mega Kahn's version of it. Now, the problem with this theory is that, again, if the opposing player has a lot of experience, they will counteract by also Paralyzing, Poisoning, or setting up on this opportunity. They can also bring in a counter to the mon you have, to scare it out and setup for a sweep.

I know everyone might be yelling at me before reading the rest of this, so I purposely saved this last. Lum Berry mons will obliterate these auto-pilot users. Possibly the biggest ones are Bisharp, Togekiss, Garchomp, and others similar. These will take the confusion and then hit back, some even harder. I don't think there's much else to say about Lum Berry though, as it isn't very common on Pokemon these days. But that could be just my luck in not seeing it too often.

With these two attributes, it feels like it still can be a bit too powerful. So, I think I'm going to go with the complex ban of Prankster and Swagger as a whole. Honestly, the only reason I say this though is because of Sableye. 3 immunities make it really good, also, it gets the move Recover, which can make it the best Auto-Pilot mon, Swagger, Twave, spam Recover/Night Shade. And in this case, a Normal Type with a Lum Berry and a Fairy Physical move is a counter, which doesn't exist.

To make this a little more clear, I think half of the people in this thread are overreacting, but I still feel like it should be banned by a slight amount. Do I think it will get banned? Eh, probably, just because of the majority of inexperienced players. They know who they are, we don't need to tell them. Have fun, thread.
 

Karxrida

An actual Hand Trap
is a Community Contributor
So, the main arguments for banning this is that it can potentially limit team building by forcing people to run something that can counter it, and that it takes no skill to use.

Also that it creates a coin toss scenario.

If it gets banned, then it creates a slippery slope of other things that fall under the same reasoning for being banned.

Talonflame takes no skill to use and limits team building by forcing people to run a check to it such as Rotom-W.

If you ban this, ban Talonflame+Gale Wings, and the metagame will balance out a little better because less people will resort to Rotom-W for walling Talonflame.

If you're not willing to do that, ban nothing and keep it the way it is.
It's called the "Slippery Slope FALLACY" for a reason.
 
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I first ran into this set a few weeks ago and it infuriated me, so I decided to run the set myself to find out its weaknesses and counters. In a mere 3 hours I managed to take an account from 1000 ELO to 1500 ELO doing nothing but spamming Swagger, TWave, Foul Play and Substitute. I'm an 1800 ELO battler so my knowledge and prediction abilities helped me to a slight degree, but for the most part I just kept spamming swagger. Although I have found some counters to this strategy I find it is an incredibly unfun element to the game and propose a ban on swagger+prankster combos. I don't believe confuse ray+prankster will be all that detrimental due to the lack of attack boosts and therefore powerful foul plays.

As for those of you who wish to know what counters these sets, here you go:

After 72 matches played with this team the main counters I ran into were:
Knock Off Gliscor - I usually won this matchup if it was a sub/protect Gliscor but it took a very long time to wear him down, Knock Off was incredibly hard to face.
Mandibuzz - It was for this Pokemon alone that I started taking Toxic instead of TWave on two of my mons.
Rotom-W - While a much softer counter to the team, it was kind of hard to deal with due to its powerful STAB, low attack stat and immunity to paralysis. Toxic took care of it quite easily.
Heal Bell Sylveon - Could wear it down and win the matchup if I got some lucky confuse procs.
Togekiss - Resists foul play and has low attack anyway, and usually has access to healing. Hard to deal with.
Synchronize/Heal Bell Umbreon - Quite possibly the biggest counter to the team, I ran into five of them and lost every time.
Heal Bell Chansey/Blissey - Couldn't dent them. At x2 Attack confusion would do 2-4% of their max HP and foul play would do the same. The only way I beat these were to toxic them when they were the last mon on the enemy team.
Taunt Whimsicott - Anything with prankster and taunt that outsped me countered this team, Whimsicott is the best example.

Without heal bell or a very tanky dark type the enemy's team was usually at the mercy of the RNG gods. While there are plenty of Pokemon in OU that can resist this strategy, it's just unfun to face in pretty much every way. My final win/loss ratio after 72 games was 52-20, and every loss except for one had at least one of the Pokemon on the list above.
 

Monte Cristo

Banned deucer.
I don't see the point in banning this because while it is reliant on luck, it's just not very good. I never see them after a certain point on the ladder, and, while I realize that personal anecdotes aren't always the best way to decide whether something is overpowered or not, I personally have never had an issue with these teams.

Because these teams aren't at the top of the ladder, that says to me that skill trumps luck in this case an overwhelming majority of the time. It's not like evasion, which any mon can take advantage of at any time and can turn a losing situation into a winning one. Swagplay requires that your opponents team has a lot of mons who take high confusion + foul play damage, have little to no recovery, and are mostly susceptible to paralysis. The only team archetype like this is HO, which ironically is 100x more overpowered than swag play at the moment. Shit like Pinsir and Deoxys-D should be banned way before we consider stuff like this that only affects the bottom and middle of the ladder.

In short: stop being pussies and play better.
LOL That's extremely easy for someone who barely touches the top of the ladder. If you login and click that find battle button wait and see what happens. there is a 75% of you not being able to do shit and it all happens with PRIORITY, that is 2x more lethal than last gen scald which was already a HUGE debate. Most people on the ladder don't use swagplay because they want to experiment and have fun. I guarantee you someone could peak with tons of swagplay if they wanted to, it's just that nobody wants to, it's kind of like gen 5 stall, viable but people just don't want to see that shit.(WHich I love stall btw, as I am a player of it, just an example)
 
...It's a Purrloin. It's not even a team of six SwagPlayers. It's one freaking Purrloin. It doesn't matter if he's bad, he's using titans like Darkrai, Giratina, and Zekrom, all felled by.... wait for it... A PURRLOIN. If that doesn't say much, I don't know what does.
If he had just switch out on the darkrai he would have won.
So it's actually not that impressive. That's just some really bad playing. I'm sure if you took the time you could find people 6-0 ubers with just as ridiculous things.
Shuckle comes to mind.

Edit: And let's not forget FEAR rattata.
 
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I'm completely in favor of stopping confusion moves in general (swagger, confuse ray etc) simply because even if the strategys GOOD OR NOT (very important Part I caps) it promotes even more luck based gameplay in a competitive enviroment. Missing moves is fine because of the rng, but exploiting it and making the game uncompetitive is a no go. Please ban swagger
 
I'm completely in favor of stopping confusion moves in general (swagger, confuse ray etc) simply because even if the strategys GOOD OR NOT (very important Part I caps) it promotes even more luck based gameplay in a competitive enviroment. Missing moves is fine because of the rng, but exploiting it and making the game uncompetitive is a no go. Please ban swagger
The problem is that any argument against confusion moves in general can also be applied to Glare and Thunder Wave.
 
...It's a Purrloin. It's not even a team of six SwagPlayers. It's one freaking Purrloin. It doesn't matter if he's bad, he's using titans like Darkrai, Giratina, and Zekrom, all felled by.... wait for it... A PURRLOIN. If that doesn't say much, I don't know what does.
That's a Gen 5 replay. Thunder Wave, which is a big part of the strategy used there, has been nerfed since then. And neither Swagger nor Swagplay per se could have accomplished this. It's the combination of Swagger + Prankster that is problematic.
 
The problem is that any argument against confusion moves in general can also be applied to Glare and Thunder Wave.
Glare and Thunder Wave aren't used for the "full paralysis" effect, except in SwagPlay or ParaFlinch. Their primary use is for the Speed-lowering effect.
 
The problem is that any argument against confusion moves in general can also be applied to Glare and Thunder Wave.
No. Those moves can be counteracted. Thunder Wave will not paralyze an Electric type. And Glare just isn't good enough to be used often, though, I wouldn't doubt seeing other players use it. Actually, what's the acc of Glare? I'd like to know.

Swagger hits all, and can have them drain their own health. That's the main problem. You don't have to do it, they'll do it for them. Not to mention, if someone knows what they're doing spamming confusion. they'll likely go with something like this:
Klefki @ Leftovers
Max Defense, Max HP
-Swagger
-Protect
-Foul Play
-Substitute

Go ahead and use that, then come back to tell me how it doesn't wreck teams. Because you can stall out with Protect and Sub, you don't have to worry about those turns that they hit.
 
So, the main arguments for banning this is that it can potentially limit team building by forcing people to run something that can counter it, and that it takes no skill to use.

Also that it creates a coin toss scenario.

If it gets banned, then it creates a slippery slope of other things that fall under the same reasoning for being banned.

Talonflame takes no skill to use and limits team building by forcing people to run a check to it such as Rotom-W.

If you ban this, ban Talonflame+Gale Wings, and the metagame will balance out a little better because less people will resort to Rotom-W for walling Talonflame.

If you're not willing to do that, ban nothing and keep it the way it is.
I'm pretty sure Rotom-W would still be overused without Talonflame's use. It's just another reason to use Rotom-W if anything. Same goes with stuff like Tyranitar and Heatran, or even Rotom-H. Plenty of his counters would be used anyway if he weren't there, many being common too. It's not really wrecking the metagame...
 
No. Those moves can be counteracted. Thunder Wave will not paralyze an Electric type. And Glare just isn't good enough to be used often, though, I wouldn't doubt seeing other players use it. Actually, what's the acc of Glare? I'd like to know.

Swagger hits all, and can have them drain their own health. That's the main problem. You don't have to do it, they'll do it for them. Not to mention, if someone knows what they're doing spamming confusion. they'll likely go with something like this:
Klefki @ Leftovers
Max Defense, Max HP
-Swagger
-Protect
-Foul Play
-Substitute

Go ahead and use that, then come back to tell me how it doesn't wreck teams. Because you can stall out with Protect and Sub, you don't have to worry about those turns that they hit.
Glare is 100 percent accurate as of Gen 6. It has low distribution, though - the most common user is Zygarde.

And there's a reason Klefki tumbled from being the most popular Fairy to barely making it into OU, and why the majority of Klefki are dual screens users - SwagKey is not invincible.
 
LOL That's extremely easy for someone who barely touches the top of the ladder. If you login and click that find battle button wait and see what happens. there is a 75% of you not being able to do shit and it all happens with PRIORITY, that is 2x more lethal than last gen scald which was already a HUGE debate. Most people on the ladder don't use swagplay because they want to experiment and have fun. I guarantee you someone could peak with tons of swagplay if they wanted to, it's just that nobody wants to, it's kind of like gen 5 stall, viable but people just don't want to see that shit.(WHich I love stall btw, as I am a player of it, just an example)
Gen 5 stall was not viable. A few stall teams got close to the top of the ladder but they did so against the odds and needed the breaks to go their way (favorable match ups, etc).

Comparing that to swag play however, is ridiculous. Swagplay loses instantly against stall and a lot of bulky/balanced teams, and has unfavorable match ups against smart players with two or more paralysis immune mons (such as Rotom-W + any ground type). And it's not like Rotom-W is a niche mon only used to counter swag play. He's pretty good outside of that.
 
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