Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

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Asterat said:
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Excadrill for B or lower

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Excadrill is more like a support Poke now honestly, ranking it like a pure offensive threat seems like the wrong way to view him. He's hands down the best hazard remover in OU right now and he can come in handy for his immunities, resistances and huge offensive presence. I don't think anyone really runs him with the intention of sweeping a team with him, more like he's a spinner that also happens to hit like a truck when you need it. Nothing else functions like that in OU. There's no way he's lower than A-.
 
Ryolain said:
Excadrill is more like a support Poke now honestly, ranking it like a pure offensive threat seems like the wrong way to view him. He's hands down the best hazard remover in OU right now and he can come in handy for his immunities, resistances and huge offensive presence. I don't think anyone really runs him with the intention of sweeping a team with him, more like he's a spinner that also happens to hit like a truck when you need it. Nothing else functions like that in OU. There's no way he's lower than A-.
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Yes indeed, but its also his versatility that helps. He can still do so damn much...drives me crazy, but god, he can do so much. If anything, he could be going to A- just cause of his frailty, but that may be his only reason.
 
rachet67 said:
Even Excadrill's frailty is somewhat offset by its good defensive typing (resisting rock, flying, bug, electric and being immune to toxic).
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Hence why I said that could be the only real reason for him suddenly dropping (which isn't a very good reason in the slightest, but I digress as this is becoming agreeing to agreeing to one counter xD).
 
Lol, please stop talking about Excadrill. It is good.

Okay, so I would like to see Greninja in A+. Seriously, I have a ridiculous amount of problems with this thing. I have to outplay the mind games it creates with Protean which is extremely hard when your CS user is gone thanks to that 122 Base Spe. Then, you have to deal with that ridiculous coverage which 2HKOes the whole metagame and the Spikes set which creates a team support condition and dragging in Defog and RP users which it all beats. Seriously the Spikes set is amazing. I have swept teams alone with Spikes and Hydro Pump. STAB Ice Beam deals with everything H pump cannot and it has U-turn which is probably the best move that takes advantage of hazards. Toss in Stealth Rock and Greninja sweeps teams with ease. The standard LO set is really good too because it can run the extra coverage move and is standard on HO Offense. You heard right: it's that good.
 
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Excadrill is the best spinner in OU, hands down. He is also a candidate for the best Stealth Rocker. That combo alone is great support, but he also checks the two most common OU Pokemon (Rotom-W and Aegislash).
Also, Scarf Excadrill is more viable than people give it credit for. It easily KOs it's counters while still having surprise value.
Excadrill should stay A neutral.

Edit: Does discussing A ranks mean that we can bring up lower ranked Pokemon if we thing they should be moved to the A ranks?
 
BenTheDemon said:
Edit: Does discussing A ranks mean we can talk about B Pokemon that we think should move up to A or no?
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No. We can only talk about pokemon in the current ranks, OR nominate unranked pokemon for the position.

ie. Discussion about Hippowdon has to wait, but discussion to put Gothitelle in A- rank could happen now.
 
BenTheDemon said:
Excadrill is the best spinner in OU, hands down. He is also a candidate for the best Stealth Rocker. That combo alone is great support, but he also checks the two most common OU Pokemon (Rotom-W and Aegislash).
Also, Scarf Excadrill is more viable than people give it credit for. It easily KOs it's counters while still having surprise value.
Excadrill should stay A neutral.

Edit: Does discussing A ranks mean that we can bring up lower ranked Pokemon if we thing they should be moved to the A ranks?
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No, we're only allowed to talk about the Pokemon that are in the A and A- ranks ATM.

Oh, sorry, I just saw Finnicent's post xD
 
Asterat said:
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Excadrill for B or lower
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Oh dear god tell me you're joking.
Mamo always loses to iron head and cube can't take one either as if exca is balloon (almost all of them) cube can't do shit back, balloon tran isn't that common anymore and if balloon is broke or if non balloon say goodbye to (BAN ME PLEASE). Dragonite should not stay in unless it is at 100% as rock slide trashes it. So gengar dies on switch in but it's obvious so you just won't use gengar (so its useless) not to mention gengar dies to iron head if I'm correct or at least loses a ton of health so it's certainly not switching into one of excadrills other attacks. Bisharp almost always loses to exca so that's a clear green. Rotom loses plain and simple so that's not even a point. Plus while some beat exca Mano e Mano almost nothing gets a safe switch in as they will always take a heavy hit. That's not even mentioning the scarf set the sand set, assault vest set, or its amazing utility with rapid spin and rocks.
If exca is moving anywhere it should be to A+

In another note I do concur with greninja for A+

Bisharp on the other hand should no be going up. Whilst its power may be impressive it loses to almos anything running ground, fire, or fighting moves. It also can't stomach strong special hits from things like manaphy an greninja as well as bein walled to death by skarm, Ferro, venu, Rotom, Gliscor, and Hippo. So it loses to most of S and A ranks
 
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Giometry said:
Oh dear god tell me you're joking.
Mamo always loses to iron head and cube can't take one either as if exca is balloon (almost all of them) cube can't do shit back
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Two things:

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 356-420 (83.9 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 542-642 (149.7 - 177.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 198-234 (54.6 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 296-350 (73 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

KyuB and Mamoswine will always win (given no flinch hax), given no prior damage on either. But I agree, Excadrill should stay A and Greninja should go to A+.
 
finncent1 said:
Two things:

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 356-420 (83.9 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 542-642 (149.7 - 177.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 198-234 (54.6 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 296-350 (73 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

KyuB and Mamoswine will always win (given no flinch hax), given no prior damage on either. But I agree, Excadrill should stay A and Greninja should go to A+.
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I will concede that cube wins as long as it gets a free switch withou rocks or prior damage (rare).
However I have never, ever seen a mamoswine run max HP or evn any hp for that matter as standard set is 252 atk and 252 Spd, just a nitpick.

On yet another note I Nominate both Scizor forms to A+ as regular scizor is just as good as mega in its own roles as mega scizor in n of itself is a plus to normal scizor.
Both Ttar forms to A+ for the same reasoning as above alongside of its incredible versatility (is it specially defensive, Banded? Scarf? Vested? Lead? MegaDD?)
Terrakion should stay A as he actually beats every S rank sans thundy I and out of A+ he has issues with Lando (both) garchomp (Terrak Wins if Banded) Venusaur and fully healthy physically defensive rotom. He hits like a truck has great coverage is one of the best scarfers, and has an amazing speed tier All the arguments I've seen against it have just said the meta shifted against it without giving a good reason how. If anything it's now gone up in usefulness as its main competition left OU for the realm of the gods.
 
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Giometry said:
I will concede that cube wins as long as it gets a free switch withou rocks or prior damage (rare).
However I have never, ever seen a mamoswine run max HP or evn any hp for that matter as standard set is 252 atk and 252 Spd
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The Mamoswine spread is the Stealth Rock spread, which actually usually has a sash, making the calc not matter. You're right that the most popular set is max speed, I just went with the first spread the damage calc gave. Of course Mamoswine should not be your Excadrill counter, but Scarf/Sash/Max HP sets do check it. But that's beyond the point of this thread.

What do people think of Mandibuzz? To me, it's the (almost) perfect defensive pokemon. It has a good defensive typing, great physical bulk, decent special bulk, reliable recovery, ability to run rocky helmet, Foul Play to check physical boosters, the disruptive Knock Off, phasing, taunt, Toxic, and defog. I'd push for it to be A+, but I'd like to hear other opinions.

EDIT: Giometry: Also, is adamant the normal nature for Excadrill? I know I always ran Jolly. Just curious.
 
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finncent1 said:
The Mamoswine spread is the Stealth Rock spread, which actually usually has a sash, making the calc not matter. You're right that the most popular set is max speed, I just went with the first spread the damage calc gave. Of course Mamoswine should not be your Excadrill counter, but Scarf/Sash/Max HP sets do check it. But that's beyond the point of this thread.

What do people think of Mandibuzz? To me, it's the (almost) perfect defensive pokemon. It has a good defensive typing, great physical bulk, decent physical bulk, reliable recovery, ability to run rocky helmet, Foul Play to check physical boosters, the disruptive Knock Off, phasing, Toxic, and defog. I'd push for it to be A+, but I'd like to hear other opinions.

EDIT: Giometry: Also, is adamant the normal nature for Excadrill? I know I always ran Jolly. Just curious.
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I am not sure but IMO jolly excadrill is best excadrill so you can outspeed base 80 like mamoswine Gyara and breloom

I will also support A+ Mandibuzz as its bulky on both sides as well as having recovery, phasing, hazard removal. Knock off and foul play, as well as a good speed for a wall so it can taunt other walls.
 
I'm a little iffy on Mandibuzz getting A+. Sure, it's quite bulky, but it has a nasty Stealth Rocks weakness, as well as it can get worn down relatively easily. When playing with Mandibuzz, I find a lot of them time I end up tanking a big hit from some set-up sweeper like ZardX, killing it with Foul Play, and then getting revenge killed. This even happens when my opponent is using Mandibuzz, too. Maybe it's just that I suck at stall, but I find that Mandibuzz can be a dead weight in enough of my battles to where I'd say it should stay A.
 
LightningLuxray said:
I'm a little iffy on Mandibuzz getting A+. Sure, it's quite bulky, but it has a nasty Stealth Rocks weakness, as well as it can get worn down relatively easily. When playing with Mandibuzz, I find a lot of them time I end up tanking a big hit from some set-up sweeper like ZardX, killing it with Foul Play, and then getting revenge killed. This even happens when my opponent is using Mandibuzz, too. Maybe it's just that I suck at stall, but I find that Mandibuzz can be a dead weight in enough of my battles to where I'd say it should stay A.
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Maybe. It was just a suggestion. Although, with the example you gave, Flare Blitz recoil + Rocky helmet recoil should take out Charizard-X while Mandy can roost. If the opponent uses Dragon Claw, it'll likely be very weak, and Foul Play will KO without leaving too much pain on Mandy. Also, you can taunt Charizard-X to prevent him from setting up.
 
Mandibuzz is easily one of the best walls in the tier. STAB Foul Play is so good, it allows it to handle things others walls can't, even if it means it gets revenge killed the next turn. It's really bulky, Foul Play gives it very good offensive presence, and it has a lot of utility with Knock Off/Defog/Taunt/whatever. The only reason I would put it in A and not A+ is the stealth rock weakness, which means it can't counter CB Adamant Talonflame or Mega Pinsir so long as rocks are up (as well as bunch of other stuff with Stone Edge.) It's a bit of a bummer but Mandibuzz has still been a top performer whenever I've used her.
 
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Sergeant Spooky said:
Mandibuzz is easily one of the best walls in the tier. STAB Foul Play is so good, it allows it to handle things others walls can't, even if it means it gets revenge killed the next turn. It's really bulky, Foul Play gives it very good offensive presence, and it has a lot of utility with Knock Off/Defog/Taunt/whatever. The only reason I would put it in A and not A+ is the stealth rock weakness, which means it can't counter CB Adamant Talonflame or Mega Pinsir so long as rocks are up (as well as bunch of other stuff with Stone Edge.) It's a bit of a bummer but Mandibuzz has still been a top performer whenever I've used her.
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I don't think SR is a good argument for Mandibuzz being A rather than A+. While the bird is indeed weak to rocks, we have 3 pokemon (Charizard X, Charizard Y, and M-Pinsir) in S-rank who are also weak to rocks. In fact, 2 of the 3 are even quadruple weak to SR. Mandibuzz can get rid of the hazards by herself or she can rely on her teammates to do it for her.
 
TrippingRocks said:
I don't think SR is a good argument for Mandibuzz being A rather than A+. While the bird is indeed weak to rocks, we have 3 pokemon (Charizard X, Charizard Y, and M-Pinsir) in S-rank who are also weak to rocks. In fact, 2 of the 3 are even quadruple weak to SR. Mandibuzz can get rid of the hazards by herself or she can rely on her teammates to do it for her.
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I think the core difference is that Mandibuzz is a defensive pokemon, therefore it will switched in more often to absorb attacks. It is difficult to pull off your job as a tank if you lose 25% of your health per switch in (and then have to spend time getting rid of rocks) wheres offensive threats might only need to switch in once or twice to effectively sweep or wallbreak.
 
hobo bob said:
I think the core difference is that Mandibuzz is a defensive pokemon, therefore it will switched in more often to absorb attacks. It is difficult to pull off your job as a tank if you lose 25% of your health per switch in (and then have to spend time getting rid of rocks) wheres offensive threats might only need to switch in once or twice to effectively sweep or wallbreak.
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This exactly. While Charizard X/Y and Pinsir can still sweep after a SR's switch in, Mandi, being a wall, has a hard time tanking powerful hits when she loses 25% on each switch in.
 
Yes, despite Mandi being an excellent Defog user itself, it really dislikes SR up because at the end of the day it's still a wall, and hates losing 25% per switch-in. Most people know I'm a huge Mandi fan, but I'm pretty happy with as a solid A-rank. It handles Aegis and many physical threats very well and packs more utility than you can shake a stick at (Defog, Taunt, Whirlwind, Knock Off, Toxic, U-Turn, you name it). It has solid special bulk as well, but its unfortunate weaknesses cause it to struggle against a lot of top threats like Thundy, Greninja, Azu, Mawile, TTar, etc.

Regardless, it's hard to believe an A-rank threat was NU last generation. Who would've guessed?

A few other mons I forgot to comment on last time:

Azumarill -> A+. I simply forgot to mention my support of Azu last time, it's one of the scariest threats out there to any team lacking Megasaur.

Clefable is a pokemon that I absolutely love to use, it's amazing at so many different roles and has two incredible Abilities. It's probably won/turned around more games single-handedly than any other mon. My biggest hesitation with it is its low-ish base stats, which can make it difficult to function against the raw power of many OU threats even with Unaware. Still, I can see it boosted to A, because whether it's a late-game CM cleaner or a support/utility check, it's extremely good at its job. It's something I always remember to pack a counter for, and I think that shows it deserves a higher ranking.

Excadrill -> A-. It's obviously a huge threat inside Sand (or using Scarf), but Sand Rush Exca are very rare now (screw you Rotom), and without a boost its middling speed and common weaknesses really hold it back this gen. I've found that its support sets are often unable to switch into anything on offensive teams and get a spin off. Still a great Pokemon for a number of roles, but it has too many bad matchups to hang with the other big threats in A, I think A- is more suitable.

Gengar, Terrak (and Keldeo too I suppose) are all on the bubble of A- as well. Specs Keldeo is still extremely good though so I want to hear more arguments about that one!
 
Excadrill is a lot more versatile than it lets on. Being the best Rapid Spinner in OU is already quite the honor, and we all know it is no slouch in the attacking department, with powerful STABs striking normally bulky threats as Rotom-W and Clefable. It may have several weaknesses, but it still has a good deal of switch-in opportunities with its several resists, especially in conjuction with Air Balloon. It can even fix some of its flaws in a snap: Excadrill is a not too shabby user of Assault Vest, making even better use of its resistances and its 110 base HP, while Choice Scarf gives Excadrill both a speedy spin and some sweeping potential (and checks Flying-types too!). And then we have Swords Dance Excadrill which can rip some shit apart.

Perhaps Excadrill's relative lack of favorable matchups against the S ranks and its fellow A Ranks can leave a bit to be desired, but it happens to partner very well with most of them by virtue of its highly successful Spin (that doesn't cost a Mega, sorry Blastoise :/ ). A Rank is fine for Excadrill imo.
 
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