B+ is fine by me, A-, i can work with it
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
- Start date
- Status
Sorry, I had stopped myself due to the analysis idea popping up to end the discussion. Sorry, was a half thought there.
A rank still suits him well enough due to his power, yet his now super set being expected makes him weaker along with flying metagame hurts it a little.
Yeah, A agree with this post. Mamoswine just doesn't really do it against offensive teams anymore, as many of them are faster and can OHKO Mamoswine due to its below-average bulk. While Thick Fat remedies this somewhat, it still doesn't help very much against Water and Fighting type Pokemon, who are common on offensive teams and can deal with Mamoswine relatively easily. Not only that, but like Jukain said, a lot of the Dragons don't really fear Mamoswine at all, most notably Cube and ZardX. Overall, I agree that B+ fits Mamoswine just fine.
About Mamaswine, I honestly think A-/B+ is better. For an offensive pokemon, it has terrible defenses and average at best speed. Sure, it hits like a truck, and its special attack is decent enough to deal with Rotom-W, but it isn't a perfect A ranked pokemon in my opinion.
Last edited by a moderator:
I still fail to see how excadrill is "the best spinner in OU"
It's a term I see tossed around more often than complimentary peanuts, yet when asked for an explanation, everyone and their mother starts raging at you, while still providing not one reason.
Excadrill is not the best spinner. Scarf spinning is an utter joke, because one you pull off the spin, or worse, if a spin blocker is sent in, you are now dead weight. Please don't mention scarf spinning, its a momentum killer.
Yes, excadrill has a lovely base 110 HP. That's awesome. It has base 60/65 defenses. That is not awesome. All three of those stats are never invested in, maybe maybe, the HP stat might be. Excadrill cannot take hits from any side of the spectrum. Menacing he doesn't stay in unless he can take out what's facing him.
He's weak to ground, forever a common attack type, fighting, still prominent from last gen, and fire, rising in prominence. It's also weak to water to and neutral to ice and grass.
The only viable excadrill is scarf with four attacks or sand rush swords dance (that's the only set that can fit in rapid spin).
Every other set is laughably manageable and easy to take out.
This guy to me is at the bottom of A- there only be cause of sand rush and scarf.
What spinner is better, lol. At least name a better spinner.
uh, Balloon spin is standard...and Scarf spin is just for when you need it bad. You can just switch out after its use, anyways. nbd
110/60/65 bulk is good for an offensive mon, idk what you're thinking. And it has good resistances. And AV can take hits.
It's not A+ because of those weaknesses. Otherwise, it would be.
Balloon all-out attack spin, SR + spin, Scarf, Sand Rush, AV...all these are viable Exca variants. So, no, there are more than 2 sets.
Exca IS OU's best spinner because it can't be spinblocked, has MB EQ, and isn't frail like Starmie. Tenta is ok, but nowhere near Exca. Forry is trash. MBlastoise is good but that consumes a Mega slot. What other spinners are there?
Offensive pokemon don't have to be super speedy. Mold Breaker is, imo, the best ability you can run, as it makes Excadrill able to kill Rotom-W, which most ground types can't say. In terms of ease to fit on a team, I'd honestly have to agree that Excadrill is not the best spinner (I think Starmie is). But, Excadrill has more offensive presence than Starmie, and that's a benefit for it. Also, most Excadrill's with Rapid Spin run Air Balloon, making it relatively easy to get a spin off on a predicted EQ. Also, while his bulk isn't great, he has a nice typing, with 10 resistances/immunities. It provides a lot of time to spin, which is certainly good for a spinner. It also is somewhat popular to run Assault Vest, making it very specially bulky.
EDIT: Why Jukain, why??? Why are you so fast? Oh well.
I think a spinner should be judged by spin opportunity.
Excadrill does indeed get mold breaker. But he doesn't out speed gengar, a spin blocker who easily KO's with focus blast, unless you're scarfed, in which case now you have to switch out and back in to spin.
This may be a matter of personal taste but I do think starmie and tents cruel are better spinners, as well as donphan.
Before you overreact to the evil D word, I want to clarify that I don't think it's a better Pokemon. But with donphan out, I don't have to worry about an OHKO because sturdy, assuming anything does being it down to that level ( aside powerful special moves).
Tentacruel is also better, as it threatens opponents with scald and knock off and toxic, again, can take a hit from any side of the spectrum, and get the spin off.
Starmie is just very fast and offensively threatening and has natural cure (in case of status or toxic spikes)
Again. Don't think I'm saying excadrill is a bad Pokemon because it absolutely isn't. The scarf set is amazing, and sand rush is, historically speaking, ban worthy. But, this constant stream of it being the best spinner? As a spinner it is NOT good. It's just decent.
Magmortar is not viable in OU and will not be ranked. Please move on and stop discussing it. Thank you.
Last edited:
Excadrill might not be coming in on Gengar anytime soon, but Gengar sure as hell can't switch in on it. The mindgames of whether excadrill is about to spin or EQ makes Gengar and Aegislash, the best spinblockers, unable to switch in. This is not so of tentacruel and starmie, since both are doing jack shit to Aegislash, and Gengar can take a Knock Off from tentacruel and diasble it, or just hit hard back with thunderbolt. Really, Excadrill is the best spinner in the game, with good offensive presence and the only one to get by the common spinblockers.
Also, the idea that donphan can live a hit with sturdy to get off a spin doesn't make sense, since it will be taking hazard damage...
I agree that Mamo should drop to at least A- (probably B+ imo). Mediocre speed and bulk and a shift to a more bulky offensive metagame are tough for Mamo. It's still a great lead and Ice Shard is excellent, but it's not on the same level as other A-rank threats.
However I'm still leaning towards Exca dropping to A- as well. It's funny that in this page alone Mamo's defenses have been called "terrible" for an offensive mon yet Exca's are "good" (they're nearly identical, 110/80/60 or 110/60/65). Both Mamo and Exca have very similar strengths and weaknesses. They have powerful EQs, but are stuck with mediocre defenses and common weaknesses.
Also glad to see some more support for Keldeo staying A, I completely agree and still don't really see why it should drop anytime soon.
However I'm still leaning towards Exca dropping to A- as well. It's funny that in this page alone Mamo's defenses have been called "terrible" for an offensive mon yet Exca's are "good" (they're nearly identical, 110/80/60 or 110/60/65). Both Mamo and Exca have very similar strengths and weaknesses. They have powerful EQs, but are stuck with mediocre defenses and common weaknesses.
"Can't be spinblocked", aka it can KO Aegis, yes. But Exca is not really much bulkier than Starmie, it's saddled with very common weaknesses, and it's a heck of a lot slower. Not to mention that Exca's coverage is very weak, which means most Flying-types like Lando-T can come in easily. Starmie is in B rank for a reason, and no one's arguing that Exca isn't overall the best offensive spinner. A just seems too high for Exca though, for the reasons I said before. I am kinda amused that the Scarf set I supported Pre-bank has suddenly caught on now though!
Also glad to see some more support for Keldeo staying A, I completely agree and still don't really see why it should drop anytime soon.
So because mold breaker, best spinner? No. What about sableye? Jellicent?
Excadrill is not the best spinner. It's a good offensive spinner. However it were talking about hazard clearing, which isn't excadrill a primarily role, then its easily outperformed by other spinners.
There are barely any other viable spinners. Mega Blastoise is okay, but it requires a Mega slot for...a spinner. Starmie is decent; it's frail and struggles to find spin opportunities in general, but it hits hard enough to compensate. Donphan is bad -- I'm not one to jump on the hate bandwagon, but seriously, it's bad and shouldn't be brought up in a serious OU discussion. Tentacruel is okay but it's setup fodder for big threats like Mega Charizard X and overall struggles in this meta -- its bulk is really not enough for all the obscenely powerful top-tier threats, and it doesn't have Rain Dish to make it ridiculously impossible to kill anymore. Forretress is so bad it's not even worth considering on any team, setup fodder for every setup sweeper in the meta and insanely easy to spinblock with the best Pokemon in OU.
Excadrill is the best OU has to offer as a spinner. If you don't believe me, believe the SPL usage stats (the ones representative of the highest level of play, you know). Excadrill has 10 uses in SPL, placed at #26. Starmie has been used twice, placed at #55. This clearly shows that the best players favor Excadrill far above other spinners. Tentacruel, Blastoise, and Donphan have zero uses. This clearly demonstrates that Excadrill is considered, by far, OU's best spinner by the top players.
Excadrill should stay A Rank because it is literally one of a few decent spinners in OU, and definitively the best. Shroomisaur, by can't be spinblocked, I meant that standard Aegislash (well, any of them without Balloon), as well as Gengar, are murdered by it. The only really decent way for offensive teams to spinblock it is Cofagrigus, which faces huge competition for a teamslot on HO with Aegislash. Exca is definitely reliable as far as spinners go.
Also, Sableye is not that good of a choice for OU. I really hope you can just take my word for it on this, it's a very niche Pokemon. Jellicent is kinda bad in XY OU, generally, and is 2HKOed by EQ after 2 SR switch-ins anyways.
Excadrill may not be the end-all-be-all best spinner, but he's still a pretty darn good one. He's arguably the best spinner, having to compete against Starmie and M-Blastoise, but he has a few edges over his competition. First is his typing. His bulk isn't the greatest, but steel/ground typing gives him some key resistances and makes him immune to paralysis and poison. M-blastoise uses up your team's mega-evolution while Starmie is usually scared to face off against Aegislash (probably the most common ghost pokemon in OU). When it comes to facing Sableye or Jellicent, Excadrill's odds may not look so favorable, but keep in mind that he does well against other other foes, including an S-rank Aegislash.
Sableye and Jellicent sees much less overall usage than either Gengar or Aegislash. Why wouldn't I run the spinner that best handles the more common Ghosts? Also, LO Adamant Excadrill 2HKOes Jellicent anyway, while Jolly LO Exca has a 7/8 chance to OHKO after +2, so it's not that safe a switch. Better stops to Excadrill would be Gourgeist (and Trevenant, somewhat), but again, less common.
The main reason Excadrill sees so much use as a spinner is not just because it does it well (hint: it does), but it also happens to have some great synergy for the Pokemon it is meant to spin for. Its Electric and Rock resistances play a big role here (sadly it doesn't resist Ice, but it ain't weak to it either and you can't ask too much from it, can you?), and the fact that it's a powerhouse also lets it weaken stuff for the SR weak Pokemon. It also happens to shit on Galvantula.
While Starmie's naturally fast spin gives it an edge over Excadrill, it wouldn't end up mattering if it cannot deal with the most popular Ghost, as its weakness severely hampers the matchup. Even if Starmie lands a LO Analytic Hydro Pump on the Aegislash switch, between hazards and 2 rounds of LO recoil, Shadow Sneak can very well ensure Starmie won't survive to be able to spin.
Excadrill doesn't have the most diverse move pool and he is extremely Restricted. His best set witch is why he is in A rank uses air balloon witch he cant even depend on because after any hit it pops . Also he doesn't have the defense to tank hits either. He depends more on his typing then anything else to get around witch is one of his biggest weaknesses. Even when his in the best case scenario against standard jolteon a thunder pokemon in uu he still loses his balloon witch cripples him. if you go for earthquake than he get one shoted by some gengar or Fire blasted by charizard I think if there has to be a spinner in a rank then Excadrill is our guy but we dont have to have a spinner in A so he should be B rank
Ok Mamo for A- I can maybe see but B+ no way. Mediocre bulk 110/80/60 is actually pretty bulky not to mention its Ice Shard hits stuff like Mega Pinsir, Thundurus I, Both Garchomps, Both Landoruses (Landorusi?), Dragonite, and Lati@s, Hard AF as well as hitting most of the tier neutrally, It has the best offensive type combo in the game and can run freeze dry to get past Rotom W. Mamoswine is as good an offensive mon as Excadrill if not better whilst losing rapid spin utility it gets strong priority in STAB Ice shard that hits a significant portion of the tier hard. Icicle Crash, Eq, and Knock off hit hard AF and almost nothing switches into mamo well. People seem to only look at 1 v 1 matchups and not realize that switching mamo in on something like Thundurus means something will take a lot of damage on the switch in. Mamo punishes switch ins massively with LO boosted Stab EQ and Icicle crash and that alone is enough to keep it out of B+ if not staying in A. Not to mention the stealth rock lead set, or the (albeit rare) Scarf Set.
You guys are undoubtably right. Excadrill is a great Pokemon and a very capable of spinning.
At this point I have to practically nitpick. Generally, spinners and defoggers are defensive mons, and if a Pokemon is going to run rapid spin, it has to ensure it can press the button.
Maybe I'm a bit stuck in the 5th gen style of play (hardly I think, I played balanced offensive then) but offensive spinners to me are already a bad investment due to their naturally frail nature. Add to that, excadrill's weaknesses are more common than the others.
He can spin. But he just doesn't guarantee a spin.
At this point I have to practically nitpick. Generally, spinners and defoggers are defensive mons, and if a Pokemon is going to run rapid spin, it has to ensure it can press the button.
Maybe I'm a bit stuck in the 5th gen style of play (hardly I think, I played balanced offensive then) but offensive spinners to me are already a bad investment due to their naturally frail nature. Add to that, excadrill's weaknesses are more common than the others.
He can spin. But he just doesn't guarantee a spin.
To me, offensive spinners are the only way to spin, because you need to have the brute force necessary to muscle past spinblockers. Excadrill can do that. Excadrill can, for the most part, take out the Ghost-types who stand between him and a successful Rapid Spin. Pokemon like Tentacruel, Donphan and Forretress can't; they're helpless.
Plus, keep in mind that Excadrill is the best spinner in OU, but that's not all he does. He has base 135 Attack and one of the most spammable moves in the game in the form of Earthquake. Pokemon hate switching in to Excadrill, because he's so good at knocking off huge chunks of their health. Then there's his Sand Rush and Choice Scarf sets, which are both excellent revenge-killers/late-game cleaners.
Then again,Spinning isn't the only thing to get rid of hazards. The reason pokemon like Staraptor were good was because of defog's ability to get rid of entry hazards. You don't have to spin. It's just that with the usefulness of Defog diminishing, the only way to get rid of entry hazards is predicting with Magic Bounce, or through Rapid spin. So because most spinners can't deal with ghost types, or the spinner not being good in general (glares at Avalug and Cryognal), Excadrill is the best one available.
He guarantees a spin better than almost any other spinner out there because there are no spin blockers he doesn't stand a good shot at killing. No one is guaranteed a spin but I don't know what spinner you think has a higher percent change than Exca these days.
How is the usefulness of defog diminishing? As far as I can see, defog is still the go-to method of hazard control for balance and stall teams.
He guarantees a spin only if he can predict the entry of a spin blocker.
For example, lets say excadrill is out against, say, Charizard.
Charizard fears the rock slide especially since, as he sees no air balloon, he knows its a scarf.
However seeing as he has a scarf, the first player knows he won't risk missing with rapid spin against his gengar, so he switches to a Pokemon that resists ground and rock, and now that excadrill must switch.
The above scenario is not the most eloquent but not rare either.
Offensive spinners rely on mind games whereas defensive spinners don't worry about that, they clear the hazards and let the sweepers in, as opposed to excadrill (and other offensive spinners) who need to play with lots of risk, to manipulate hazard clearing and balance that with sweeping.
Excadrill didn't get high usage because if his spinning capabilities, especially as Defog is a more reliable option. Excadrill gained the usage it did through its fantastic offensive capabilities and its ability, sand rush.
The fact that it can spin just adds a bit more utility to its role.
Defensive spinners (bulky starmie, donophan, forretress) wish they could play mind games, because as it is, they can barely get past spinblockers in the first place.
You misunderstood me. Excadrill doesn't initiate the mind games. It has to mind its step. Risk getting ko'd or possibly wasting a turn getting spin blocked. Those aren't games I wish I could participate in.
- Status