SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)

[Tressed]

Speedy confusion in no way can be compared to priority confusion, specially not this generation.

Debateable. Priority skyrocketed this gen, but Scarfers are rarer than ever. Also, nearly everything in existence gets Swagger, including Accelgor, Alakazam, Deoxys-S, Dugtrio, Starmie, Gengar, Latios, and Froslass. You can question the usefulness of some of these Pokemon, but they're fast and certainly able to abuse the free turns that Swagger could provide for them.

Swagger Dugtrio. That right there sounds like fucking hell.

 

[PenguinKnight]

I'm still not getting this "uncompetitive" argument. Unlike the other "uncompetitive" ban of Funbro that seeks to never end a battle, Swagplay is an aggressive playstyle that just uses a combination of moves and abilities to win. It's as competitive as any other "reliable luck" like Fiery Dance, confusion, paraflinch, parafusion, and Serene Grace.

Lmao more of this bullshit. It relies on luck to win, and luck is the central, integral component of this strategy, and other "reliable luck" strategies can be countered without problems.

I really think this discussion is going no where; every single anti-ban post can, and has been easily be shot down, and many respected memebers of the community have weighed in on their opinions: overwhelming majority of them think it is uncompetitive. Those who keep insisting it is uncompetitive can't write a single counter-argument that doesn't make them look like a fool.

Banning prankster + swagger is both lame and a cop out. The whole point of the ability is to get more use out of status moves like swagger, and taking one of the better status moves away because you can't handle it is sad and pathetic. There is nothing wrong with that combination outside of how annoying you might personally find it. The only time it is a problem is when used in conjunction with twave. If banning them together is to complex for you then just leave it alone for gods sake. To the people that want swagger banned on its own, even without prankster, you are literally 3 year old children in my mind and you should be embarrassed for being so soft.

To someone unable to understand the past 50 pages of well-written posts by various respected members of the community, you aren't much better.

I concede; there will always be new users who don't read threads and think they have groundbreaking opinions, and people without reading comprehension skills.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Blissey and any Eletric and/or (Stunfisk needs some love) can pretty much counter swagplay. And I don't see how its broken anyways. If we ban this, we might as well ban paralysis moves and confusion moves on the some set :p

 

[PenguinKnight]

Blissey and any Eletric and/or (Stunfisk needs some love) can pretty much counter swagplay. And I don't see how its broken anyways. If we ban this, we might as well ban paralysis moves and confusion moves on the some set :p

See what I mean

3 words: read the thread

 

[Da Pizza Man]

See what I mean

3 words: read the thread

I am really tired right now and even if I wasn't I'm not going to read the 58 pages on this thread

I honestly think nothing should be banned and this matter doesn't need to be dealt with but if we have to I would say ban Recycle+

 

[Punchshroom]

This battle.

A classic example of how the entire match boiled down to coinflips. I ended up sweeping him clean with Lum DD Zygarde, but just look at what happened to all my Pokemon before it. And even then, Zygarde only pulled through with the same miraculous luck that Klefki got to take out 3 of my dudes. Hardly any / no skill was needed from both players at all.

With priority Swagger, being able to consistently apply this kind of hax to turn the whole battle into a luckfest is what makes Prankster SwagPlay teams highly uncompetitive. Whoever has greater control over this hax is up for debate (Swag teams have Foul Play and usually use Ditto to keep lucky physical sweepers in check, other teams use bulky shit like Chansey and Gliscor). Granted, Prankster Swagger by itself is not very cheap at all, but it just so happens that nearly every Swagger user has something that can help stack the hax and / or take full advantage of it.

As Lee said, Prankster Swagger is just likely to get caught in the crossfire between all the infuriating "strategies" (aka copypasted movesets). Lee suggested a couple of potential bans, but I'm not particularly sure if choosing just one of these bans is enough to get down to the root of the issue instead of applying several complex bans at once / an even more complex ban. The core annoyance "strategy" of these Prankster Swagger users can still remain intact (for the most part) if we only choose one of the bans because most of the Prankster Swaggerers have enough moves to dick around with so long as Prankster Swagger remains usable. After all, if only one ban is implemented, the Swagger users can usually still use ~2 / 3 moves out of the ~3 / 4 moves that inherently make them as big a deal as they became in the first place:

- Thundurus-I can still attack or use those free turns to set up with Nasty Plot; relatively unaffected by any of the bans
- Sableye does not like losing out on STAB Foul Play, but can still use Night Shade to fight back; only really affected by Foul Play ban
- Klefki, Liepard, Murkrow and Purrloin are only truly neutered if they lose both Foul Play and Thunder Wave alongside Swagger, while Klefki still has the typing (and to an extent, bulk) to go Swaggering without Sub anyway, otherwise they can still do SubSwagger, Prankster paraSwagger, and of course SwagPlay; needs more than one ban
- Whimsicott is an odd case, since it has Stun Spore over T-Wave (less accurate but nabs Ground-type dudes), and it has the infamous SubSeed combo, which alongside Swagger may be as equally infuriating to deal with as SwagPlay itself, since it boasts the ability to pressure Chansey; affected mostly by Substitute ban

So either a super complex ban of Prankster Swagger + all the aforementioned moves (Thundurus-I would still be at large though), or just banning Prankster Swagger itself. This is looking like the endless battle clause: do we ban Leppa Berry Prankster Swagger, or do we ban all the moves that makes Leppa Berry Prankster Swagger a dick move? The problem with Prankster Swagger is that there are a lot more moves that would accompany Swagger in the complex ban, and I'm not sure if that's totally feasible / practical.

 

[fenyxofshadows]

I've not seen a single post give a definition of "competitive". So, we cannot declare what is "uncompetitive".

Is OHKOing every single monster on your opponent's team after one turn of setup competitive?

Punchshroom: That's why I suggested banning abusers not the moves being abused; there's always a way around it.

 

[KztxL7]

I've not seen a single post give a definition of "competitive". So, we cannot declare what is "uncompetitive".

Is OHKOing every single monster on your opponent's team after one turn of setup competitive?

It's pretty obvious it's the complete opposite of sitting down and calling heads and tails.

 

[fenyxofshadows]

It's pretty obvious it's the complete opposite of sitting down and calling heads and tails.

It's also pretty obvious that I'm being facetious. But it's not just calling heads or tails. It's calling heads, and if you get tails you punch yourself in the face twice (once for confusion, once for Foul Play)

 

[Chou Toshio]

"Name some counters, but not the one mentioned before"
Yeah ok.


I'm still not getting this "uncompetitive" argument. Unlike the other "uncompetitive" ban of Funbro that seeks to never end a battle, Swagplay is an aggressive playstyle that just uses a combination of moves and abilities to win. It's as competitive as any other "reliable luck" like Fiery Dance, confusion, paraflinch, parafusion, and Serene Grace.

Uncompetitive game aspects (or strategies) are those that take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions.

This can be luck-based, but doesn't have to be (see: 4th gen Wobb, who was effective enough then to remove the ability to "do anything about it" largely from the enemy player, and was banned for uncompetitive-ness); but most uncompetitive strategies that are banned usually have a high appeal to luck.

While there is always luck involved in Pokemon, the problem is the degree to which control is taken away from the player.

With Swagger-Prankster, it is undeniable that a large degree of decision making ability to counter it is taken away from the opposing player. For offensive teams "just attacking" is often the best move choice, even though it may only have a 50/50 chance to win. And this situation is very easy for the strategy to replicate.

This makes it almost undeniably an uncompetitive degree of autonomy removal.

Please remember this definition going forward, though it has been re-posted all too often in this thread...

 

[Lazyboy0337]

This battle.

"The enemy is trying to hax me, I better set up instead of attacking"
See, that's why everyone wants SwagPlay removed. You're suppose to just hit them, not trying your default "muh screens Deoxys" set. Somehow this is above everyone.

 

[asbdsp]

Because against top players, where you might only have a 20% chance at winning, SwagPlay can boost your chances at getting the undeserved win. Thats why you use it. You don't lose anything, because its a battle you had a low chance of winning anyway, and SwagPlay gives you a better shot at just haxing your way to victory. Sure, this is potentially more of an issue in Bo1 Matches that you see in tourneys, rather than a ladder situation, but this is the basic idea as to why SwagPlay can easily be argued as being unhealthy for the game, because it risks turning the game into a coinflip, where luck dictates the victor rather than skill.

Is it a problem that people are winning tourney matches this way (let alone advancing multiple rounds)? I'd really like to know, as I feel that before such a thing happens we'd really be jumping the gun to ban it only on the grounds that it could end up being such a menace.

 

[Punchshroom]

Punchshroom: That's why I suggested banning abusers not the moves being abused; there's always a way around it.

This would not really be fair for users who use these Pokemon outside of Prankster Swag. Why ban the useful Thundurus-I, Sableye and Klefki as a whole just because they can pull off sets that rely heavily on chance well? Are you suggesting we ban a specific number of Pokemon or god forbid, all Prankster users? It's true that the users aren't entirely reliant on Prankster Swag, but the users are only a part of the problem: Prankster Swag is the main issue here (+ a couple of moves the Prankster users happen to get). Banning Pokemon with actual competitive niches due to sets that employ uncompetitive tactics is not the solution.

"The enemy is trying to hax me, I better set up instead of attacking"
See, that's why everyone wants SwagPlay removed. You're suppose to just hit them, not trying your default "muh screens Deoxys" set. Somehow this is above everyone.

I set up Screens to try and lessen the damage Foul Play & self-confusion damage would do to me, which was the most I could make use of Deo-D in that situation. Well guess what, that play in which I actually thought ahead (unlike the Swag user) didn't pay off because RNG gods favored him. At least for a while. :3

 

[fenyxofshadows]

This would not really be fair for users who use these Pokemon outside of Prankster Swag. Why ban the useful Thundurus-I, Sableye and Klefki as a whole just because they can pull off sets that rely heavily on chance well? Are you suggesting we ban a specific number of Pokemon or god forbid, all Prankster users?

Why ban the useful Blaziken as a whole just because it can pull off sets that allow it to outspeed and OHKO 99% of monsters?

I honestly hate Prankster and Gale Wings as abilities; moves are given set priorities for a reason.

 

[Kyrk]

Banning prankster + swagger is both lame and a cop out. The whole point of the ability is to get more use out of status moves like swagger, and taking one of the better status moves away because you can't handle it is sad and pathetic.

No, the point of the ability is to provide priority for support moves, which that general concept is a very good thing, not solely to abuse confusion.

There is nothing wrong with that combination outside of how annoying you might personally find it.

You could say the same for the other luck-based moves/abilities Smogon has banned, such as Evasion moves, Moody, etc. They are quite manageable, but they are all incredibly annoying for allowing the player to create a forced luck-based scenario for your opponent, which in some situations allow said players to beat even the most experienced players with luck-based shenanigans. Swagger is no different than these.

The only time it is a problem is when used in conjunction with twave.

I disagree. Unlike Swagger's sole purpose in singles to confuse and prevent them from attacking, Thunder-Wave's main purpose isn't to create a hax-filled situation, although it does have a 25% chance to do so, but rather to cripple your opponent's speed to support your team's slower partners. Also unlike Swagger, there are many more counters to Thunder Wave, namely all electric and ground types. Thunder Wave also isn't required to be used in conjunction with Swagger to create an incredibly luck-based scenario, as 50% is a mere coinflip of annoyance.

If banning them together is to complex for you then just leave it alone for gods sake.

Complex bans are typically quite controversial, as banning the root of the cause is usually better than banning multiple, specific scenarios/combinations such as Drizzle + Swift Swim last generation.

To the people that want swagger banned on its own, even without prankster, you are literally 3 year old children in my mind and you should be embarrassed for being so soft.

To such a "wise" animal such as yourself who compares people with a different opinion than you to soft, young children (whom apparently some of them can type quite well for their age), you are figuratively an asshole and you should feel embarrassed for being too ignorant to accept other peoples' arguments, even if you don't agree with them.

The way I look at this situation is like this. There is a tumor in Michael Jordan's calf, and over half of you are suggesting that you amputate him from the waist down rather than just cut out the problem area. It's not even complex! Just treat it like an egg move! If you have swagger on a prankster pokemon you can't have twave, and vice-versa. End of swagplay.

Well if you cut in too specific of an area of that tumor, such as your suggestion of banning the combination of Swagger and T-Wave on a Prankster user, there will still be parts of that problem area that remains, such as Swagger in general not needing to rely on Thunder Wave or in some cases Prankster to hax your opponent, meaning it can still potentially spread and harm the body.

 

[Lazyboy0337]

I set up Screens to try and lessen the damage Foul Play & self-confusion damage would do to me, which was the most I could make use of Deo-D in that situation. Well guess what, that play in which I actually thought ahead (unlike the Swag user) didn't pay off because RNG gods favored him. At least for a while. :3

Thinking ahead would also make switching a viable move.

That battle also proves that while SwagPlay can get good luck, just some bad luck causes the entire team to collapse. It's a risky coinflip that remains a viable option and should be reserved as a possibility.

 

[PenguinKnight]

I am really tired right now and even if I wasn't I'm not going to read the 58 pages on this thread

I honestly think nothing should be banned and this matter doesn't need to be dealt with but if we have to I would say ban Recycle+

If you lack the respect to at least read the past 5 pages, then please don't bother, you're clogging the thread up with a bunch of shit that's already been posted a million times over.

Those where examples of how to use the words, you never seen that in a dictionary defenition? They are usually there

But yeah I do agree with you. I mean like really, if that is considered uncompetitive we might as well ban all attacking moves with secondary effects

This has also been refuted a million times.

Thinking ahead would also make switching a viable move.

That battle also proves that while SwagPlay can get good luck, just some bad luck causes the entire team to collapse. It's a risky coinflip that remains a viable option and should be reserved as a possibility.

Risk of this degree is deemed uncompetitive. Refer to the post from Chou Toshio on page 58. Since you think that the single, game determining coinflip is healthy for the metagame, so you should probably set up an interesting Coin Flip tournament where people flip coins and find winners. I'd be the first to watch it.

 

[PenguinKnight]

One of the better status moves? To be honest I, and many, many other users, would rate toxic, twave and will-o far above a purely luck-based spam move. Honestly, would love to hear a justification as to why it's one of the best in the game.

It's not the best. That's not the point here. In fact, it's outright stupid and ranks right up there with evasion as "use and pray" strategies. However, it is uncompetitive since whatever you do is determined on a 50/50 flip- and can result in a landslide of kills for the person whom luck favors. That's why it's stupid.

 

[Maskun]

If you lack the respect to at least read the past 5 pages, then please don't bother, you're clogging the thread up with a bunch of shit that's already been posted a million times over.


This has also been refuted a million times.


Risk of this degree is deemed uncompetitive. Refer to the post from Chou Toshio on page 58. Since you think that the single, game determining coinflip is healthy for the metagame, so you should probably set up an interesting Coin Flip tournament where people flip coins and find winners. I'd be the first to watch it.

Well aren't you sarcastic because if you are basing it off of a coinflip u are wrong because it's all about probability. The risk of stacking up haxes has the better probability of it happening it more. Before you even say the coin flip is a probability that's only 50/50 we are talking about other numbers if we were to stack them up on each other.

 

[JMach]

It's not the best. That's not the point here. In fact, it's outright stupid and ranks right up there with evasion as "use and pray" strategies. However, it is uncompetitive since whatever you do is determined on a 50/50 flip- and can result in a landslide of kills for the person whom luck favors. That's why it's stupid.

I was attempting to reply to some guy who posted stating swagger is 'one of the best status moves in the game'. I'm guessing he deleted his post or something lol. I agree with you on all points.

 

[PenguinKnight]

I was attempting to reply to some guy who posted stating swagger is 'one of the best status moves in the game'. I'm guessing he deleted his post or something lol. I agree with you on all points.

I see, apologies :D The amount of nonsensical posting here is so high that my bullshit detector is on fire and I respond with force to almost everything that appears now.

Well aren't you sarcastic because if you are basing it off of a coinflip u are wrong because it's all about probability. The risk of stacking up haxes has the better probability of it happening it more. Before you even say the coin flip is a probability that's only 50/50 we are talking about other numbers if we were to stack them up on each other.

So what you mean is a strategy depending on 1 turn of sheer luck, into a landslide of hax against the opponent is a good thing? You should go join the coinflip tournament too.

 

[JMach]

Well aren't you sarcastic because if you are basing it off of a coinflip u are wrong because it's all about probability. The risk of stacking up haxes has the better probability of it happening it more. Before you even say the coin flip is a probability that's only 50/50 we are talking about other numbers if we were to stack them up on each other.

Foul play is the broken element IMO. Seems you either stay in and risk dying to an insanely strong foul play after a couple of lucky swagger spams or you switch to a wall or something and lose momentum. Shameless haxing followed by an often OP Foul Play seems like a pretty cheap tactic to me. I don't really understand why people are rushing to its defense.

I see, apologies :D The amount of nonsensical posting here is so high that my bullshit detector is on fire and I respond with force to almost everything that appears now.


So what you mean is a strategy depending on 1 turn of sheer luck, into a landslide of hax against the opponent is a good thing? You should go join the coinflip tournament too.

I'm literally lost for words at some of them lol. It's almost as infuriating as reading bullshit Christian flame comments on Atheist videos (no offence to any Christians!)

 

[Punchshroom]

Why ban the useful Blaziken as a whole just because it can pull off sets that allow it to outspeed and OHKO 99% of monsters?

I honestly hate Prankster and Gale Wings as abilities; moves are given set priorities for a reason.

Because Blaziken, alongside Speed Boost, is broken, but Speed Boost didn't make Yanmega, Sharpedo, and Scolipede too powerful, so it would make no sense applying a universal Speed Boost ban (hint: Smogon bans things universally, so no non-Speed Boost Blazikens would be allowed, and I assume no Pokemon at all can even hold the banned Mega-Stones in OU). Though Speed Boost Blaziken is banned because it is too powerful, while PranksterSwag is currently being discussed not only because it requires no skill to use, but also forces the other player to play the game of coinflips, whether they like it or not (like Double Team). This is not on the same boat as something like Metronome, where the opponent doesn't have to play along the game of hax.

In a similiar note, it is Swagger alongside Prankster that is getting heated debate, though it looks like it is more PranksterSwag + the combination of a slew of other hax-inducing / -abusing moves that is pushing it over the edge. Unlike Gale Wings (and Blaziken), this is available to a whole number of Pokemon. Keep in mind, these Pokemon are not broken with just Prankster, or with just Swagger. Acknowledge that it is the combination of both that players are deeming 'uncompetitive', hardly anything to do with Prankster itself or the users themselves.

 

[PrincessDerpy]

"The enemy is trying to hax me, I better set up instead of attacking"
See, that's why everyone wants SwagPlay removed. You're suppose to just hit them, not trying your default "muh screens Deoxys" set. Somehow this is above everyone.

You have a 50/50 of hitting them instead of yourself. Offensive pokemon that can deal significant damage 50/50 between "I broke their face" and "Owww why did I hurt myself so much?"

By all means, if the best answer you have available to you is trying to beat the crap out of them, go for it, but that's the scenario that the strategy WANTS.

 

[JMach]

Because Blaziken, alongside Speed Boost, is broken, but Speed Boost didn't make Yanmega, Sharpedo, and Scolipede too powerful, so it would make no sense applying a universal Speed Boost ban (hint: Smogon bans things universally, so no non-Speed Boost Blazikens would be allowed, and I assume no Pokemon at all can even hold the banned Mega-Stones in OU). Though Speed Boost Blaziken is banned because it is too powerful, while PranksterSwag is currently being discussed not only because it requires no skill to use, but also forces the other player to play the game of coinflips, whether they like it or not (like Double Team). This is not on the same boat as something like Metronome, where the opponent doesn't have to play along the game of hax.

In a similiar note, it is Swagger alongside Prankster that is getting heated debate, though it looks like it is more PranksterSwag + the combination of a slew of other hax-inducing / -abusing moves that is pushing it over the edge. Unlike Gale Wings (and Blaziken), this is available to a whole number of Pokemon. Keep in mind, these Pokemon are not broken with just Prankster, or with just Swagger. Acknowledge that it is the combination of both that players are deeming 'uncompetitive', hardly anything to do with Prankster itself or the users themselves.

By far the best explanation - no player should be forced into taking a risk every single turn. Especially if, to avoid doing so, they basically have to use a Numel :p