I feel like Wynaut is a solid B. It's a great check to many physical threats and slower pivots, and Encore is always a solid move. If it wasn't for the fact the combination of being Knock Off weak and U-turn weak (and those combined with the fact that Meditite, one of the pokemon it's supposed to hard counter, can just Baton Pass out) I'd say it'd be A for sure. Definitely B material, though.
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Resource LC Viability Rankings
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I brought this up before and am now thirding it wynaut for B. The single best fighting counter in the game and the arguably the best trapper/revenge killer.
Wynaut C -> B
Drilbur C -> B
Cottonee C -> B
moved these 3, I really couldn't think of any reason not to and no-one has objected so yeah.
please continue discussion on the front page mons particularly these, I have either seen arguments for both sides, or not seen enough arguments to move any of them:
Ferroseed - A or B
Carvanha - A or S
Dwebble - A or B
Bunnelby - A or B
Croagunk - A or B
Larvesta - A or B
Slowpoke - A or B
Scraggy - A or B
Torchic - A or B
Drilbur - A or B
Drilbur C -> B
Cottonee C -> B
moved these 3, I really couldn't think of any reason not to and no-one has objected so yeah.
please continue discussion on the front page mons particularly these, I have either seen arguments for both sides, or not seen enough arguments to move any of them:
Ferroseed - A or B
Carvanha - A or S
Dwebble - A or B
Bunnelby - A or B
Croagunk - A or B
Larvesta - A or B
Slowpoke - A or B
Scraggy - A or B
Torchic - A or B
Drilbur - A or B
Croagunk should be A, while it can't carry a team by itself, it glues teams together really well. I've had games where Croagunk has saved my ass numerous times. It's one of the best utility mons in LC right now, and the buffed Knock Off makes its life so much better, as now it frees him up to run a secondary STAB instead of Shadow Ball.
Hmm, just some of my opinions.
Ferroseed: B, just kinda fodder to Fighting types, and it has pretty low Attack.
Carvanha: S, just weaken everything just a little bit, snd it can decimate a team, it's just really good.
Dweeble: A, just a really solid hazard setter, and can Knock Off items for the sweeper.
Bunnelby: B, Missy is just so common, and can take any hit, while the common Fighting types can take a hit and KO.
Croagunk: A, utility too good
Larvesta: B, it can't beat Psycho Cut Tite, can't beat Timburr, leaving only Foo, which can still Knock Off. U-turn is not enough to compensate for its low speed and it faced huge competition from Ponyta, which is better imo.
Slowpoke: A, even with losing to T-Punch Tite, Pawn, and Murkrow, and getting Knock'd Off by Timburr and Foo, Regenerator is barely enough for me to support it into A.
Scraggy: A, such a good late game sweeper, setting up easily with its amazing bulk, and reqking things with Knock Off. Spritzee get hit by Iron Head.
Torchic: A, its good at its job, what can I say.
Drilbur: A, One of best Rapid Spinners, Stealth Rocker, and Ground types. Mold Breaker is nice as well.
Ferroseed: B, just kinda fodder to Fighting types, and it has pretty low Attack.
Carvanha: S, just weaken everything just a little bit, snd it can decimate a team, it's just really good.
Dweeble: A, just a really solid hazard setter, and can Knock Off items for the sweeper.
Bunnelby: B, Missy is just so common, and can take any hit, while the common Fighting types can take a hit and KO.
Croagunk: A, utility too good
Larvesta: B, it can't beat Psycho Cut Tite, can't beat Timburr, leaving only Foo, which can still Knock Off. U-turn is not enough to compensate for its low speed and it faced huge competition from Ponyta, which is better imo.
Slowpoke: A, even with losing to T-Punch Tite, Pawn, and Murkrow, and getting Knock'd Off by Timburr and Foo, Regenerator is barely enough for me to support it into A.
Scraggy: A, such a good late game sweeper, setting up easily with its amazing bulk, and reqking things with Knock Off. Spritzee get hit by Iron Head.
Torchic: A, its good at its job, what can I say.
Drilbur: A, One of best Rapid Spinners, Stealth Rocker, and Ground types. Mold Breaker is nice as well.
To be honest, Corkscrew, I can actually see Cottonee being A. It has an incredible support movepool, great defensive typing, it is also the best check for Tirtouga (it Encores Shell Smash like a boss), and it is just an overall cute bitch. I love it.
I also agree with the drop of Ferroseed and Bunnelby (maybe).
I also agree with the drop of Ferroseed and Bunnelby (maybe).
- Ferroseed - due to the overbearing Fighting-types in the tier, and, while its support is unquestionable, Dwebble is pretty cool this meta, especially with the use of Counter and not being Fighting weak. [Drop to B]
- Bunnelby (maybe A?) just because I never understood why it was ever A, even last meta I was often questioning it. However, if we decide on ugly ass piranha bitch being S, I can see Bunnelby staying A due to it OHKOing with Quick Attack. [B, maybe A]
- Torchic - I feel like it requires too much team support to be successful, and against certain teams Torchic can be found to be quite useless, which pretty much means you're down a pokemon in retrospect. [Stay B]
- I don't think Carvanha should be S for the same reason. I mean, sure it's strong and quite fast. However, it is also frail as hel and has pretty great counters in the tier, and pokemon that just inhibit Carvanha from getting very far in life. (Also, let's not forget it's ugly and should be nowhere near being S due to this fact) [Obviously D]
- I don't like the idea of Drilbur being A, in all honesty. Drilbur is a lot like Bunnelby, in the sense that it is quite frail, and has movepool restrictions that prohibit it from hitting certain threats. Misdreavus is quite a good check to Drilbur: it doesn't really care about anything it can do, and if it tries to set up SD, it gets burnt. [Stay B]
- Dwebble - A because very cool mon. I am in love with using Counter on it, cuz it's fun and stuff, too. It is also a great hazard stacker, which has basically replaced Ferroseed as the premier one this meta. (It's also really, really cute.) [Rise to A]
- Scraggy - A because it is a great sweeper, and even though Spritzee walks all over it, Scraggy can Knock Off Spritzee switch-ins, which disallow it from walling many teammates. Also, Scraggy is so cute and I love it. [Rise to A]
- I really feel like Larvesta should be B, also, due to its meh typing. However, I can see it staying A because it is a decent Meditite check, and Meditite can get burned just from touching its ass, which is scary. Another reason for it to be B is it being extremely rocks vulnerable, and Defog not being as common due to the top user of it, Gligar, getting banned, and while Vullaby is a great Defogger, I wouldn't necessarily say Vullaby and Larvesta have great synergy with each other. [B, but I can see it staying A]
- Slowpoke - It's an amazing mon in LC right now. While Meditite might be allowed to use Thunder Punch, Slowpoke's only niche isn't countering Meditite. Slowpoke can switch into so many more threats due to its pretty great typing, and bulk, and consequently force them out due to the fear of Thunder Wave or Scald burn. It also has Regenerator and Slack Off, which makes it near impossible to eliminate, and let's it pivot much more freely. [Stay A]
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Ferroseed - B dark buff+prevalence pf fighting and fire types=B rank for it
Carvanha - S great late game sweeper revenge killer cleaner amazing typing and d-bond for extra kill
Dwebble - A hazards+sturdu=yes and shellsmash+sturdyjuice=yes
Bunnelby - A huge power+return+uturn enough said
Croagunk - A great power two set up sweeping moves excellent typing=yes
Larvesta - A multiple great sets willow wisp great fighting check and can even be a decent revenge killer
Slowpoke - A dont even know why this is a question
Scraggy - A terrific late game sweeper with moxie and dragon dance and stab knock off.
Torchic - A terrific baton pass chainer and pokemon and great qteam supporter.
Drilbur - B great spinner abd poke lost its sweeping niche though.
Carvanha - S great late game sweeper revenge killer cleaner amazing typing and d-bond for extra kill
Dwebble - A hazards+sturdu=yes and shellsmash+sturdyjuice=yes
Bunnelby - A huge power+return+uturn enough said
Croagunk - A great power two set up sweeping moves excellent typing=yes
Larvesta - A multiple great sets willow wisp great fighting check and can even be a decent revenge killer
Slowpoke - A dont even know why this is a question
Scraggy - A terrific late game sweeper with moxie and dragon dance and stab knock off.
Torchic - A terrific baton pass chainer and pokemon and great qteam supporter.
Drilbur - B great spinner abd poke lost its sweeping niche though.
What makes Carvahna in any way S rank material? Being an excellent revenge killer is 1) false, because it needs to abuse Protect to have any chance at revenge killing, or it needs a sash which really destroys any sort of power it has (not to mention any pokemon can do that). Revenge killing does not necessitate S rank either, or Abra would be S rank because it is probably the best revenge killer with immunity to hazards. It actually has pretty bad typing, leaving it weak to Mach Punch, U-turn, Volt Switch, and a plethora of other moves, and it has lacking defenses, meaning it takes a giant chunk from even resisted priority moves. RESISTED PRIORITY MOVES.
236+ Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Carvanha: 12-14 (57.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Carvanha: 9-11 (42.8 - 52.3%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO
The top two priority users/moves 2hko it, and those are resisted. It rarely has any sort of safe switchin, with U turn, Fighting moves, Volt Switch, or even just powerful resisted hits hitting it for 60-70% flying everywhere. It loses to any sort of decent wall, such as Spritzee, Foongus, and Vullaby. In fact, the only wall I can recall of the top of my head that it beats reliably is Slowpoke, which isnt as good now Misdreavus and Murkrow are everywhere, as well as ThunderPunch Meditite. And even then, Porygon, Foongus, and Vullaby are all really common partners. It loses to Croagunk, which is THE most popular glue pokemon. Its defenses are absolutely horrid, as I stated before, meaning it only really has a place on HO-esque teams. Because it can only really function at its fullest with hazards on the field, the team can't use Defog, meaning that Sash sets lose their revenge killing/ guaranteed kill. It loses to common Fighting types, such as Scraggy, Timburr, Eviolite Mienfoo, and Eviolite Meditite (Waterfall fails to OHKO any of them with a LO, meaning its forced out while those all have excellent KOing abilities). Its heavily reliant on teammates to sweep, as the infamous, but rather bad imo, core of Wynaut+Carvahna are forced out by Timburr, Mienfoo, and Scraggy ( as well as Wynaut being bad with being Knock Off weak, meaning it can only function as a Revenge killer).
If it runs D-Bond, then it can't run Protect, meaning that it loses to any sort of Fake Out attempt. If it runs Destiny Bond, it also HAS to run a sash, because otherwise it can't ever get any speed going. This severely limits any potential it has, as tbh its relatively weak without a Life Orb. Please stop suggesting Carvanha for S rank, as it cant, nor will it ever, sweep on its own, and it can't perform multiple roles at a time. It is heavily reliant on teammates, weak to most priority (can't even take Sucker Punches leaving it easily revenge killed), and loses to most dedicated walls. It has high risk involved, due to losing to a lot of common pokemon, meaning that often it will be deadweight until said counters are removed, and even then most teams run 1-2 checks by default.
And that is just off the top of my head. Sorry, it just requires too much support to be S tier.
236+ Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Carvanha: 12-14 (57.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Carvanha: 9-11 (42.8 - 52.3%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO
The top two priority users/moves 2hko it, and those are resisted. It rarely has any sort of safe switchin, with U turn, Fighting moves, Volt Switch, or even just powerful resisted hits hitting it for 60-70% flying everywhere. It loses to any sort of decent wall, such as Spritzee, Foongus, and Vullaby. In fact, the only wall I can recall of the top of my head that it beats reliably is Slowpoke, which isnt as good now Misdreavus and Murkrow are everywhere, as well as ThunderPunch Meditite. And even then, Porygon, Foongus, and Vullaby are all really common partners. It loses to Croagunk, which is THE most popular glue pokemon. Its defenses are absolutely horrid, as I stated before, meaning it only really has a place on HO-esque teams. Because it can only really function at its fullest with hazards on the field, the team can't use Defog, meaning that Sash sets lose their revenge killing/ guaranteed kill. It loses to common Fighting types, such as Scraggy, Timburr, Eviolite Mienfoo, and Eviolite Meditite (Waterfall fails to OHKO any of them with a LO, meaning its forced out while those all have excellent KOing abilities). Its heavily reliant on teammates to sweep, as the infamous, but rather bad imo, core of Wynaut+Carvahna are forced out by Timburr, Mienfoo, and Scraggy ( as well as Wynaut being bad with being Knock Off weak, meaning it can only function as a Revenge killer).
If it runs D-Bond, then it can't run Protect, meaning that it loses to any sort of Fake Out attempt. If it runs Destiny Bond, it also HAS to run a sash, because otherwise it can't ever get any speed going. This severely limits any potential it has, as tbh its relatively weak without a Life Orb. Please stop suggesting Carvanha for S rank, as it cant, nor will it ever, sweep on its own, and it can't perform multiple roles at a time. It is heavily reliant on teammates, weak to most priority (can't even take Sucker Punches leaving it easily revenge killed), and loses to most dedicated walls. It has high risk involved, due to losing to a lot of common pokemon, meaning that often it will be deadweight until said counters are removed, and even then most teams run 1-2 checks by default.
Vullaby
Spritzee
Croagunk
Foongus
Chinchou
Mienfoo
Timburr
Eviolite Meditite
Eviolite Pawniard
Fletchling
Porygon
Ferroseed
Tirtouga
Cottonee
Munchlax
Lickitung
Spritzee
Croagunk
Foongus
Chinchou
Mienfoo
Timburr
Eviolite Meditite
Eviolite Pawniard
Fletchling
Porygon
Ferroseed
Tirtouga
Cottonee
Munchlax
Lickitung
And that is just off the top of my head. Sorry, it just requires too much support to be S tier.
Ferroseed - B, for reasons already explained above. Cottonee is better at leech seed.
Carvanha - A, TCR pretty much summed it up. Berry Juice means many of its former 2HKOs are now 3HKOs.
Dwebble - A, best hazard setter in the tier (especially for hyper offense)
Bunnelby - B, missy and pawniard's prevalence make it much harder for the little bunny to do his job.
Croagunk - A or B, frog has a good handle on a lot of top threats (carv, spritzee, foo) but from personal experience he really doesn't feel like he can do much else. could go either way
Larvesta - B, lack of best defogger + lack of good spinners makes this guy's life really hard. great check to timburr and meditite (and some foo), but cannot be a counter of anything with SR on the field.
Slowpoke - B, limited offensive presence compared to other walls like spritzee makes him setup fodder for stuff like pawniard, missy, and fletchling.
Scraggy - A, outstanding typing since there are only a couple good fairies in LC (cottonee/spritzee). Doesn't like that chin/missy can run dazzling gleam, but in the former case it's slightly uncommon, and in the latter case scraggy outspeeds with either a scarf or one DD. top-tier threat that every team should be prepared for.
Torchic - B, it's an outstanding baton passer (one of the best in any tier), but like most baton passers his role is very matchup dependent. stuff like encore, haze, phaze all make torchic kind of a waste of a slot.
Drilbur - A, but I could see B. Sandrush is obviously trash now, but there are a lot of ground weak mons who do not want to be in his way. He's one of the better spinners in the tier (of which there are few), and can threaten common hazard setters like dwebble (mold breaker hits through sturdy!) and pawniard. Scarf Drilbur can also make a great cleaner once priority is mostly removed, since he outspeeds a lot of other common scarfers.
Carvanha - A, TCR pretty much summed it up. Berry Juice means many of its former 2HKOs are now 3HKOs.
Dwebble - A, best hazard setter in the tier (especially for hyper offense)
Bunnelby - B, missy and pawniard's prevalence make it much harder for the little bunny to do his job.
Croagunk - A or B, frog has a good handle on a lot of top threats (carv, spritzee, foo) but from personal experience he really doesn't feel like he can do much else. could go either way
Larvesta - B, lack of best defogger + lack of good spinners makes this guy's life really hard. great check to timburr and meditite (and some foo), but cannot be a counter of anything with SR on the field.
Slowpoke - B, limited offensive presence compared to other walls like spritzee makes him setup fodder for stuff like pawniard, missy, and fletchling.
Scraggy - A, outstanding typing since there are only a couple good fairies in LC (cottonee/spritzee). Doesn't like that chin/missy can run dazzling gleam, but in the former case it's slightly uncommon, and in the latter case scraggy outspeeds with either a scarf or one DD. top-tier threat that every team should be prepared for.
Torchic - B, it's an outstanding baton passer (one of the best in any tier), but like most baton passers his role is very matchup dependent. stuff like encore, haze, phaze all make torchic kind of a waste of a slot.
Drilbur - A, but I could see B. Sandrush is obviously trash now, but there are a lot of ground weak mons who do not want to be in his way. He's one of the better spinners in the tier (of which there are few), and can threaten common hazard setters like dwebble (mold breaker hits through sturdy!) and pawniard. Scarf Drilbur can also make a great cleaner once priority is mostly removed, since he outspeeds a lot of other common scarfers.
first of all, I think it's very funny how everyone is bandwagoning on Ferroseed being B 'because fighting types are so common' while all the same people are also saying Dwebble is A, while Fighting types can use Knock Off to allow only 1 or 2 layers of hazards being set up.
let me give my opinions:
Ferroseed - A Ferro deals with an amazing number of pokemon, and if you have another mon to deal with Fighting-types (eg Spritzee) it'll pretty much automatically make a great defensive duo. Ferroseed's utility in Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock, Spikes, Leech Seed(+protect) all make it a very good support mon. It's also got Leech Seed which is nifty for fighting Shell Smash Tirtouga, as you can usually KO it in one turn. (it's also cool for some substitute users). Fighting types are common, which is troublesome for Ferroseed, but people thought misdreavus would be terrible due to the knock off spam, while it's sitting nice n clean in S tier. Pawniard gets shit on by most Fighting types, and is still S tier. I know you cant just cross-compare two mons but what i'm trying to say is that just because a certain group of mons/a move which fucks up the mon we're talking about is common, doesn't mean said mon is bad.
Carvanha - A Carvanha is amazing at what it does, but that's it. It is incredibly predictable, which means that starting from team preview, it's quite easy to play around. (unless your opponent somehow gets a shitton of hazards) Speed boost and sky-high attack make carvanha a very threatening sweeper, but it's not nearly as good as what is currently in the S tier, imo.
Dwebble - A Best hazard setter for offensive teams. It gets knock off to further assist it's team. not really much to say, a mon which is almost guaranteed to get two layers of hazards should be A
Bunnelby - B Bunnelby is cool/cute but incredibly hard to bring in and hard to predict with. It also gets easily revenged which kills momentum. I really wish bunny would be better :[
Croagunk - B I've found Croagunk to be incredibly situational. In some battles it'll be the MVP, but in most it'll just drain punch once before dying. It's a good check to some mons like Carvanha, but that doesn't make it worth A tier, IMO.
Larvesta - A see post #326
Slowpoke - B see post #326
Scraggy - A see post #326
Torchic - A see post #326
Drilbur - A see post #332
let me give my opinions:
Ferroseed - A Ferro deals with an amazing number of pokemon, and if you have another mon to deal with Fighting-types (eg Spritzee) it'll pretty much automatically make a great defensive duo. Ferroseed's utility in Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock, Spikes, Leech Seed(+protect) all make it a very good support mon. It's also got Leech Seed which is nifty for fighting Shell Smash Tirtouga, as you can usually KO it in one turn. (it's also cool for some substitute users). Fighting types are common, which is troublesome for Ferroseed, but people thought misdreavus would be terrible due to the knock off spam, while it's sitting nice n clean in S tier. Pawniard gets shit on by most Fighting types, and is still S tier. I know you cant just cross-compare two mons but what i'm trying to say is that just because a certain group of mons/a move which fucks up the mon we're talking about is common, doesn't mean said mon is bad.
Carvanha - A Carvanha is amazing at what it does, but that's it. It is incredibly predictable, which means that starting from team preview, it's quite easy to play around. (unless your opponent somehow gets a shitton of hazards) Speed boost and sky-high attack make carvanha a very threatening sweeper, but it's not nearly as good as what is currently in the S tier, imo.
Dwebble - A Best hazard setter for offensive teams. It gets knock off to further assist it's team. not really much to say, a mon which is almost guaranteed to get two layers of hazards should be A
Bunnelby - B Bunnelby is cool/cute but incredibly hard to bring in and hard to predict with. It also gets easily revenged which kills momentum. I really wish bunny would be better :[
Croagunk - B I've found Croagunk to be incredibly situational. In some battles it'll be the MVP, but in most it'll just drain punch once before dying. It's a good check to some mons like Carvanha, but that doesn't make it worth A tier, IMO.
Larvesta - A see post #326
Slowpoke - B see post #326
Scraggy - A see post #326
Torchic - A see post #326
Drilbur - A see post #332
Well you're trash so....
Honestly, you can run drop Ice beam and keep Protect, but Ice Beam is nice to catch Cottonee and Foongus on the switch in. Its what I prefer, I honestly didn't think about dropping the third move.
Ferroseed - A or B
Bunnelby - A or B
Croagunk - A or B
Slowpoke - A or B
Scraggy - A or B
I've noticed that more offensive threats seem to be suggested to move up, while defensive threats, such as Ferroseed and Slowpoke, have gotten suggestions to move down. Has the Metagame shifted to a far more offensive nature then pre-Gligar/Swirlix ban, or are new offensive threats appearing as a result of the ban who can beat these defensive mons/outclass them?
The thing about Ferroseed and Slowpoke (especially compared to stuff like Ponyta, Spritzee, and Porygon) is that they have limited offensive presence that only really let's them threaten certain threats. Yes, they wall things, but they can't do any threatening damage back except against a handful of threats. Thunder Wave is good utility, but it doesn't have as much immediate benefit as a burn or special attack drop, for example. Typing is another pretty big factor; Slowpoke's supposed to wall fighting-types, but is weak to Knock Off, U-turn, and Thunderpunch. I'm not super familiar with Ferroseed in this regard, but I can't imagine being fighting weak and as slow as he is that it's working out for him.
The metagame has always been offensive in nature, it's just that Knock Off is becoming more and more common, along with the offensive threats that are becoming more prominent. That's why you don't see too many defensive pokes inhabiting the A Tier. Any defensive poke in the A Tier right now has some sort of property to add to its capabilities. Spritzee has Aroma Veil and Fairy-type, Porygon has great offensive presense, and Ponyta has high-speed combined with the all-important offensive presense.
Dwebble -> A
Scraggy -> A
Bunnelby -> B
Ferroseed -> B
Croagunk - Remaining A (for now)
Carvanha - Remaining A (for now)
feel free to continue arguing for these Pokemon, but that was the general consensus I got from the thread.
From the OP:
Larvesta - A or B
Slowpoke - A or B
Torchic - A or B
Drilbur - A or B
Cottonee - A or B
Shieldon - C or D
Mantyke - B or C
Shellder - B or C
Honedge C or B
Darumaka- B or C
Lileep - B or C
Scraggy -> A
Bunnelby -> B
Ferroseed -> B
Croagunk - Remaining A (for now)
Carvanha - Remaining A (for now)
feel free to continue arguing for these Pokemon, but that was the general consensus I got from the thread.
From the OP:
Larvesta - A or B
Slowpoke - A or B
Torchic - A or B
Drilbur - A or B
Cottonee - A or B
Shieldon - C or D
Mantyke - B or C
Shellder - B or C
Honedge C or B
Darumaka- B or C
Lileep - B or C
My opinions:
Larv: B, the slowness, 4x SR weak for a pivot, and losing to Krow, tite, missy, and others is just not enough for A imo.
Poke: A, Even tho Fighters, what its suppose to wall can knock it off, Regen is barely enough to give it a good niche for A
Torchic: tbh, I dont have much experience, I would say B, I guess
Brilbur: A, best Rapid Spin imo, good SRer, and one of the few decent ground types.
Shieldon: D, what does this thing even do? Set up SR and die. It barely has a niche over Aron, being a bit bulkier.
Tyke: C, Chou overshadows Tyke, but it has the niche of beating Foongus, I guess.
Shellderp: C, It is a decently good SS, just overshadowed by Tirt alot, and it has horrible special bulk, giving it few set up oppertunities.
Honedge: B, Autotomize is really good imo, killing one or two things, then destiny bonding.
Darumaka: C, I have little experience, but it just seems like it just dies to everything, and SRs and Recoil from flare blitx dont help. Hustle just screws over accuracy.
Lileep: B, really good special wall, especially for Chinchou. One of the better SRers in the meta
Larv: B, the slowness, 4x SR weak for a pivot, and losing to Krow, tite, missy, and others is just not enough for A imo.
Poke: A, Even tho Fighters, what its suppose to wall can knock it off, Regen is barely enough to give it a good niche for A
Torchic: tbh, I dont have much experience, I would say B, I guess
Brilbur: A, best Rapid Spin imo, good SRer, and one of the few decent ground types.
Shieldon: D, what does this thing even do? Set up SR and die. It barely has a niche over Aron, being a bit bulkier.
Tyke: C, Chou overshadows Tyke, but it has the niche of beating Foongus, I guess.
Shellderp: C, It is a decently good SS, just overshadowed by Tirt alot, and it has horrible special bulk, giving it few set up oppertunities.
Honedge: B, Autotomize is really good imo, killing one or two things, then destiny bonding.
Darumaka: C, I have little experience, but it just seems like it just dies to everything, and SRs and Recoil from flare blitx dont help. Hustle just screws over accuracy.
Lileep: B, really good special wall, especially for Chinchou. One of the better SRers in the meta
I agree with most of what Shaymin said, but I don't like the idea of Drilbur in A. I mean, it is a good Spinner, but it can't beat the most common spinblocker 1v1, making its niche overshadowed by, really, any Defogger (mostly Archen and Vullaby)
As I mentioned about Cottonee, I'd really like to see it being A due to it being incredible support, and having great typing. It is also the best switchin for Tirtouga and other Smashers/set uppers, thanks to priority Encore and decent bulk.
As for Torchic, like I said earlier, it requires so much team support, and its usefulness/viability relies on team matchup, which has already been stated multiple times before. Too much support required for A.
Honedge for B because it is one of the best Meditite counters, along with Wynaut, this meta. WHich is always a great niche to have. I can see Slowpoke going either way, but I like it being A due to Regenerator and great support options. And, as Shaymin states about Lileep, it is a really good Stealth Rocker in this meta, and it is still a great Sp wall. I'm not going to say anything abou Larvesta because I feel like everything has already been said. (B please!)
As I mentioned about Cottonee, I'd really like to see it being A due to it being incredible support, and having great typing. It is also the best switchin for Tirtouga and other Smashers/set uppers, thanks to priority Encore and decent bulk.
As for Torchic, like I said earlier, it requires so much team support, and its usefulness/viability relies on team matchup, which has already been stated multiple times before. Too much support required for A.
Honedge for B because it is one of the best Meditite counters, along with Wynaut, this meta. WHich is always a great niche to have. I can see Slowpoke going either way, but I like it being A due to Regenerator and great support options. And, as Shaymin states about Lileep, it is a really good Stealth Rocker in this meta, and it is still a great Sp wall. I'm not going to say anything abou Larvesta because I feel like everything has already been said. (B please!)
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Okay, I know this may sound a little absurd... but hear me out:
Chinchou for S.
Honestly, chou finds it way onto nearly every team I make; it requires little to no support. It has the ability to counter or check a huge amount of pokemon including nearly all Flying, Water, Electric, and Fire type pokemon. It can pivot, steal momentum, spread status through scald and T-Wave, absorb status (it doesn't care at all about status and is immune to para), and act as a cleric through Heal Bell. Murkrow, Fletchling, Slowpoke, Carvanha, Hazard-Dwebble, Larvesta, Pawniard, Magnemite, Ponyta, Vullaby, Tirtouga (lacking EQ), Torchic, and Clamperl are just a few example of the pokemon chinchou is able to stand up against. Its got only two weaknesses, one of which, ground, can't switch in for fear of Hydro Pumps. The other, grass, is pretty much exclusive to grass types since un-stabbed HP grass is usually not enough to bring it down.
Chinchou is reasonably unpredictable as well.... Its can go Scarf, Rest-talk, or Berry Juice. It can go Heal Bell or Ice Beam or Dazzling Gleam or HP grass. I've noticed a lot of battles that depend on finding out which set chinchou is running. Honestly, a huge reason as to why Fletchling and Murkrow aren't completely broken is because of Chinchou.
The one thing that I think holds Ol' Zapfish back is it's lack of recovery. However, rest-talk is a lot better now than in Gen V. Now Chinchou can volt-switch out without having to reset the counter.
There is a reason why its in the top 10 most used pokemon for Feb. Its just fantastic in the current meta.
Chinchou for S.
Honestly, chou finds it way onto nearly every team I make; it requires little to no support. It has the ability to counter or check a huge amount of pokemon including nearly all Flying, Water, Electric, and Fire type pokemon. It can pivot, steal momentum, spread status through scald and T-Wave, absorb status (it doesn't care at all about status and is immune to para), and act as a cleric through Heal Bell. Murkrow, Fletchling, Slowpoke, Carvanha, Hazard-Dwebble, Larvesta, Pawniard, Magnemite, Ponyta, Vullaby, Tirtouga (lacking EQ), Torchic, and Clamperl are just a few example of the pokemon chinchou is able to stand up against. Its got only two weaknesses, one of which, ground, can't switch in for fear of Hydro Pumps. The other, grass, is pretty much exclusive to grass types since un-stabbed HP grass is usually not enough to bring it down.
Chinchou is reasonably unpredictable as well.... Its can go Scarf, Rest-talk, or Berry Juice. It can go Heal Bell or Ice Beam or Dazzling Gleam or HP grass. I've noticed a lot of battles that depend on finding out which set chinchou is running. Honestly, a huge reason as to why Fletchling and Murkrow aren't completely broken is because of Chinchou.
The one thing that I think holds Ol' Zapfish back is it's lack of recovery. However, rest-talk is a lot better now than in Gen V. Now Chinchou can volt-switch out without having to reset the counter.
There is a reason why its in the top 10 most used pokemon for Feb. Its just fantastic in the current meta.
Cottonee - A, while I'm pretty biased on this one, Cottonee finds its way onto almost every team I make. It checks a lot of top threats very reliably, like Tirtouga and Carvanha, and can stop most setup sweepers as long as they can be identified. Has priority memento to allow your own sweeper to set up. Has always done exactly what I require of it.
Shellder - C, Shellder really suffers from 4MSS, wanting to run Shell Smash/Icicle Spear/Rock Blast/Ice Shard/Razor Shell, and tends to be outclassed by Tirtouga in almost every way (secondary STAB, STAB on priority, Sturdy). Shellder's advantage is that he can break existing substitutes and has access to a strong, physical ice move. These traits, however, aren't enough to push him to B, because they aren't highly desired in the current meta.
I don't have enough experience with the other mons listed in the OP to have an opinion on them.
Shellder - C, Shellder really suffers from 4MSS, wanting to run Shell Smash/Icicle Spear/Rock Blast/Ice Shard/Razor Shell, and tends to be outclassed by Tirtouga in almost every way (secondary STAB, STAB on priority, Sturdy). Shellder's advantage is that he can break existing substitutes and has access to a strong, physical ice move. These traits, however, aren't enough to push him to B, because they aren't highly desired in the current meta.
I don't have enough experience with the other mons listed in the OP to have an opinion on them.
Take Binacle out of the Smog Frogs pls (yes, its outclassed as a Shell Smasher by Tirtouga). Access to Switcheroo allows it give a scarf to something defensive/tanky, and you can Shell Smash as they switch out. Binacle and Tirtouga actually make great partners since they share similar check/counters, so you can weaken/cripple the opponents' usual answer to Tirtouga with Binacle, allowing Tirtouga a chance to sweep. Or vice versa. Idc if it's unranked, but just remove it from smog frogs because I assume it was put there on the basis of "lol worst smasher in LC such shit"
Rotom W was nominated for S rank in OU recently, was shut down because of certain sets only doing certain roles. It has unreliable sustainability, can't actually wall significant threats consistently, is frail when offensive, and weak when defensive. Its statusing is even less reliable than Rotom W's and it is still weak to Ground. It's a great pivot and answer to Krow + Fletchling but Chinchou is not S rank material.
Move Croagunk to B. Croagunk typically needs Quiet/Brave Nature for its move effective set (mixed with Knock/Vacuum Wave) which makes it very slow. It has mediocre stats with an admittedly good movepool and ability, with an OK typing, but with its meh base stats and poorly distributed movepool that forces weird natures and spreads (if only it got Mach Punch) make it sub-par.
Keep Carvaha A. Has 4MSS, very frail, weak to priority, can have trouble actually finding kills unless everything is low on health, etc. Not reliable or powerful enough for S, simple as that.
Corkscrew slow down with the changes lol let the discussion flow for longer. Only exception was Ponyta, that thing suffered down low for far too long.
Move Croagunk to B. Croagunk typically needs Quiet/Brave Nature for its move effective set (mixed with Knock/Vacuum Wave) which makes it very slow. It has mediocre stats with an admittedly good movepool and ability, with an OK typing, but with its meh base stats and poorly distributed movepool that forces weird natures and spreads (if only it got Mach Punch) make it sub-par.
Keep Carvaha A. Has 4MSS, very frail, weak to priority, can have trouble actually finding kills unless everything is low on health, etc. Not reliable or powerful enough for S, simple as that.
Corkscrew slow down with the changes lol let the discussion flow for longer. Only exception was Ponyta, that thing suffered down low for far too long.
Alright, I can understand that. Seems game freak wasn't too kind to gen 2 mons.
Drilbur isn't A because of his spinning ability, it's because he's a menacing sweeper in sand.
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