I've been testing out Fennekin a little bit, and I feel it fits in C-Tier. It isn't particularly special, but it can burn something, pass a wish, then hit hard and get out. I've been testing a set of Will-O-Wisp / Wish / Fire Blast / Psyshock, and it performs ok. It's pretty outclassed by other Fire-types though. I'm kind of thinking this over again, and I do believe it shouldn't go above C-Tier, but I wouldn't be opposed to D-Tier honestly.
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Resource LC Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Corporal Levi
- Start date
- Status
I would like to nominate Trubbish for B-Rank.
Even though I have already talked about it, the pile of trash is freaking amazing in the current meta. Want a counter to fighting types that aren't Meditite? Want a counter to Knock Off? Want something that can deal with Spritzee? How about something that can deal with Pawniard? Not satisfied yet? How about the fact that it gets reliable recovery and entry hazards. Well, you have all of these for only one moveslot! Hurry, as this deal is too freaking good to pass up. Get your own trash bag today!
Seriously, the amount of utility that this thing brings to a team is insane. It distinguishes itself from other Spikers (ie Ferroseed and Dweeble) by having reliable recovery, lasting bulk, AND taking on fighting types. It's the best poison type in the tier imo, since Foongus is really slow and Murkrow loves to feast on it. But what does Trubbish do in the face on Murkrow?
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 212 HP / 180+ Def Trubbish: 19-23 (79.1 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
116 Atk Trubbish Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Murkrow: 18-22 (81.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
God damn. Don't even mention that Berry Juice lets it recover the majority of its health, and deal good damage. Seriously, it deals with Mienfoo, Timburr, Spritzee, Pawniard, and Murkrow, all while setting up Spikes (when Vullaby is pretty much the only viable Defogger), dealing decent damage, and being a freaking piece of trash. Trubbish For B Tier.
Even though I have already talked about it, the pile of trash is freaking amazing in the current meta. Want a counter to fighting types that aren't Meditite? Want a counter to Knock Off? Want something that can deal with Spritzee? How about something that can deal with Pawniard? Not satisfied yet? How about the fact that it gets reliable recovery and entry hazards. Well, you have all of these for only one moveslot! Hurry, as this deal is too freaking good to pass up. Get your own trash bag today!
Seriously, the amount of utility that this thing brings to a team is insane. It distinguishes itself from other Spikers (ie Ferroseed and Dweeble) by having reliable recovery, lasting bulk, AND taking on fighting types. It's the best poison type in the tier imo, since Foongus is really slow and Murkrow loves to feast on it. But what does Trubbish do in the face on Murkrow?
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 212 HP / 180+ Def Trubbish: 19-23 (79.1 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
116 Atk Trubbish Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Murkrow: 18-22 (81.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
God damn. Don't even mention that Berry Juice lets it recover the majority of its health, and deal good damage. Seriously, it deals with Mienfoo, Timburr, Spritzee, Pawniard, and Murkrow, all while setting up Spikes (when Vullaby is pretty much the only viable Defogger), dealing decent damage, and being a freaking piece of trash. Trubbish For B Tier.
Although I myself am a huge fan of the little trash bag, I do not believe that it deserves B-rank, or if it does it only barely deserves it. Its abilities are great, as few Pokemon can claim such versatility with reliable recovery, hazards, and a good pair of attacking moves in drain punch and gunk shot. However, these attacking moves leave it horribly unable to deal with either ghost types or opposing poison types, who resist both types. In addition, the most common ghost types in the tier, Misdreavus and Gastly, are immune to Trubbish's entry hazards, and Misdreavus can use Trubbish as Nasty Plot bait until it can do more than 20 damage with a shadow ball. Tentacool can also come in fairly safely and spin away any and all hazards Trubbish sets up, as well.
In addition, Trubbish's main (and essentially only usable) STAB, gunk shot, has an incredibly unreliably accuracy of 85%. This makes the Murkrow calculation more of a 5.3% chance to OHKO. This may seem small, but to put it in context that means that a 50% chance to OHKO becomes a 42.5% chance to OHKO. A 100% chance to OHKO becomes an 85% chance to OHKO. This wouldn't be a huge problem if the trash bag had a second option, but it is essentially forced to run an inaccurate move for STAB, which bothers me.
Trubbish may indeed move up to B-rank, but I feel that it only has a nitche, and will find itself horribly misused if put in B.Also, I can't let it just be put up without providing a counter-argument.
In addition, Trubbish's main (and essentially only usable) STAB, gunk shot, has an incredibly unreliably accuracy of 85%. This makes the Murkrow calculation more of a 5.3% chance to OHKO. This may seem small, but to put it in context that means that a 50% chance to OHKO becomes a 42.5% chance to OHKO. A 100% chance to OHKO becomes an 85% chance to OHKO. This wouldn't be a huge problem if the trash bag had a second option, but it is essentially forced to run an inaccurate move for STAB, which bothers me.
Trubbish may indeed move up to B-rank, but I feel that it only has a nitche, and will find itself horribly misused if put in B.
It's true, Missy completely destroys Trubbish. But let's just look at the descriptions of all the ranks.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the LC metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
Sounds like Trubbish imo. Really great as a physical wall that can deal with even things like Krow. It does have a decently big flaw in the form of its rather disappointing Special Defense. However, the amount of support as Spiker, Wall, and decently hard hitter overshadows its Special Defense. What team support does it need? A Special Wall that has good synergy with it. Trubbish and this one pokemon form a "core", and if this other pokemon has recovery, it is doubtful that breaking this core will be easy. For instance, Porygon would be perfect as the other pokemon. Porygon walls Missy very well, checks Gastly, and takes Trubbish's Psychic hits while Trubbish deals with Fighters
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.
Like I said in my previous post, Trubbish can distinguish itself against other Spikers, Poison types, and Physical Walls. Trubbish doesn't really need much support, its a support pokemon for goodness sake. Finally, Trubbish has enough advantages over competition that its not really outclassed.
It's these reasons why I believe Trubbish should be B rankalso, wtf are you doing trying to prevent a poke you like from going a higher rank you monster
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the LC metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
Sounds like Trubbish imo. Really great as a physical wall that can deal with even things like Krow. It does have a decently big flaw in the form of its rather disappointing Special Defense. However, the amount of support as Spiker, Wall, and decently hard hitter overshadows its Special Defense. What team support does it need? A Special Wall that has good synergy with it. Trubbish and this one pokemon form a "core", and if this other pokemon has recovery, it is doubtful that breaking this core will be easy. For instance, Porygon would be perfect as the other pokemon. Porygon walls Missy very well, checks Gastly, and takes Trubbish's Psychic hits while Trubbish deals with Fighters
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.
Like I said in my previous post, Trubbish can distinguish itself against other Spikers, Poison types, and Physical Walls. Trubbish doesn't really need much support, its a support pokemon for goodness sake. Finally, Trubbish has enough advantages over competition that its not really outclassed.
It's these reasons why I believe Trubbish should be B rank
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This is now being run by me and prem. I moved Pawniard and Misdreavus to S rank already as that was pretty much decided days ago, and I'll look through the rest of the thread later to see if any changes are pretty much decided.
edit: Trubbish to B and Abra to B were made... not many arguments went against them and i think they are pretty obvious changes. Koffing and Tyrunt have also both been moved to C. dunno what tyrunt was doing in B in the first place and Koffing has lost a great niche in the fact it doesn't have gligar or swirlix to wall anymore
edit: Trubbish to B and Abra to B were made... not many arguments went against them and i think they are pretty obvious changes. Koffing and Tyrunt have also both been moved to C. dunno what tyrunt was doing in B in the first place and Koffing has lost a great niche in the fact it doesn't have gligar or swirlix to wall anymore
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is there a chance the rankings will be split up into subsections (A+, B+, B-, etc)? Take A rank for example, stuff like Mienfoo, Timburr, Chinchou, and Larvesta would all deserve A+ for their excellent utility and important niches, whereas things like Croagunk, Vullaby, Bunnelby, etc are perhaps more deserving of like A- or regular A. I'm not saying these should go to these spots if we do switch to this, as I haven't used all of them extensively, it's just for the sake of example.
More discussion needed on some things that have been talked about before I make any changes
Stuff nominated from page 11:
Dwebble - A or B
shell smash Dwebble kinda sucks at the moment, being walled by so many things, but the hazard set is where it really shines. No Gligar anymore means less reliable defogging and it's rock blast beats the most common defoggers. I'm leaning towards A just for the hazard set as it almost never fails to get up 2 layers of SR/Spikes in a game
Ferroseed - B or A
Personally I think Ferroseed should remain in A-tier for its ability to beat so many top threats, mentioned by Darkamber here. again, hazards are really good this metagame so I think it deserves A.
Shieldon – C or D
This was brought up by GlassGlaceon, but I'm not sure if it's that useful and I haven't tried it. No-one else commented on it, but I'd be leaning towards D. More discussion please
Mienfoo – S or A
yeah this was brought up once by mysteriousVincent in page 11. Since it was originally put in A-tier, Yanma, Tangela, Gligar and Swirlix have all been banned, 4 Pokemon which all hindered its usefulness. It's just such a good utility Pokemon, in the same way it was in Gen 5. Yes Meditite is here now which gives it problems, but also Pawniard is more popular which makes it more useful as it is probably Pawn's best counter. The thing that could sway me is the fact it's such a low-risk Pokemon, which shows by it being used on 9/10 teams in this weeks SPL.
Stuff nominated from page 11:
Dwebble - A or B
shell smash Dwebble kinda sucks at the moment, being walled by so many things, but the hazard set is where it really shines. No Gligar anymore means less reliable defogging and it's rock blast beats the most common defoggers. I'm leaning towards A just for the hazard set as it almost never fails to get up 2 layers of SR/Spikes in a game
Ferroseed - B or A
Personally I think Ferroseed should remain in A-tier for its ability to beat so many top threats, mentioned by Darkamber here. again, hazards are really good this metagame so I think it deserves A.
Shieldon – C or D
This was brought up by GlassGlaceon, but I'm not sure if it's that useful and I haven't tried it. No-one else commented on it, but I'd be leaning towards D. More discussion please
Mienfoo – S or A
yeah this was brought up once by mysteriousVincent in page 11. Since it was originally put in A-tier, Yanma, Tangela, Gligar and Swirlix have all been banned, 4 Pokemon which all hindered its usefulness. It's just such a good utility Pokemon, in the same way it was in Gen 5. Yes Meditite is here now which gives it problems, but also Pawniard is more popular which makes it more useful as it is probably Pawn's best counter. The thing that could sway me is the fact it's such a low-risk Pokemon, which shows by it being used on 9/10 teams in this weeks SPL.
okay now that im running this thread i GUESS i should start caring about it. im just going to post my opinions section by section cause i think thats more useful than trying to go through 13 pages, i have better things to do lol. Kavatika i dont think theres really a point to that, this is just like a tier list. theres no reason to sectionize a tier list that much when its just a guideline.
why is this thing A tier. it does not sweep wall or support the majority of the tier at all. bunnnelby has a massive flaw in that it has to be walled by soemthing. im not even talkinga bout the life orb set because i honestly dont know why people think thats a set without torchic support, but choice scarf MUST be walled by misdreavus or by steel types. it requires pretty big support, is difficult to come in because of its bad bulk and how common fighting type pokemon are. definately drop to b imo
this should move to s tier. if you hit your opponents hole team to 80% carvanha can probably sweep them. it basically requires no support and its flaw is almost removed by speed boost. the only moves you will be hit by are priority (which means mach punch, sucker punch, and acrobatics) because you are just faster than the rest of the tier. the fact that it resists sucker punch is probably the best part because thats by far the most common priority. it also has dbond to just ignore all of its counters and kill them.
stay where it is no complaints.
drop to b. croagunk is a weird pokemon cause of how it does things. yes iit is effective at beating exactly what it tries to beat, but after that point it doesnt do much. its not a threatening pokemon, it cannot wall a majority of the tier, it just beats what it tries to beat. while it doesnt actually require specific support, as a support pokemon is it very limited. theres no reason for this be A tier cause of that
maybe drop to b. i have an obsessive love for tesshiido so i wont try to comment on it lol
maybe drop to b. idk if "must have spin support" is requiring less support than other pokemon. it has very noticable flaws because of its typing, but at the same time its stenths make it that useful. ill just look at arguements for this because i dont know
this is cool
this MIGHT be S tier. i think of S tier as amaze+ consistency, while mienfoo is just consistency. its consistency is actually amazing in its own right because its just that good at what it does and it does A LOT.
this is nice
this is nice
this is nice
this is nice
this is nice.
vullaby: this is nice
vullaby: this is nice
I agree with everything prem said except for carvanha, who I feel doesn't deserve S-rank. Despite its insane speed in speed boost and its very good attack, it has paper thin defenses. In addition, it has to be extremely careful in the moves it runs. If you run protect, by far the most common choice, then you have to be careful of your opponent switching to a scarf that you don't expect that kills you. In addition, priority users such as timburr or croagunk can check (or counter, in croagunk's case) carvanha, avoiding destiny bond and requiring that carvanha switch out or die. Carvanha is absolutely a useful Pokemon, and if there is an A+ tier it would end up there, but ultimately its reliance on protect on the first turn is what dooms it in my eyes, as it certainly "gives the opponent a free turn".
In the lower tiers, on the other hand...
I feel that shellder should be moved down from B rank to C rank, as its viability is near zero. Although shellder has skill link rock blast and icicle spear, it gets STAB on neither move and, quite frankly, only has the special ability to beat substitute Pokemon and sash abra and sometimes beat tirtouga that decide to do something stupid and try to set up on it when it's sitting at +2. The fact that it beats substitute is largely irrelevant, as nobody in their right mind will set up a substitute on shellder while it tries to smash, and without smashing 65 base attack just isn't good enough.
With Gligar gone, shellder's icicle spear lost one of its main targets, and it can't even set up in the face of murkrow, as brave bird and sucker punch KO it.
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Shellder: 10-13 (52.6 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Shellder: 10-13 (52.6 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It has a hard time setting up unscathed, and gets no priority that would allow it to defeat mons with their own priority. And before anyone starts quoting its stats after a shell smash, remember that it needs the free turn to smash, and most competent players won't give it that free turn.
In the lower tiers, on the other hand...
I feel that shellder should be moved down from B rank to C rank, as its viability is near zero. Although shellder has skill link rock blast and icicle spear, it gets STAB on neither move and, quite frankly, only has the special ability to beat substitute Pokemon and sash abra and sometimes beat tirtouga that decide to do something stupid and try to set up on it when it's sitting at +2. The fact that it beats substitute is largely irrelevant, as nobody in their right mind will set up a substitute on shellder while it tries to smash, and without smashing 65 base attack just isn't good enough.
With Gligar gone, shellder's icicle spear lost one of its main targets, and it can't even set up in the face of murkrow, as brave bird and sucker punch KO it.
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Shellder: 10-13 (52.6 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Shellder: 10-13 (52.6 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It has a hard time setting up unscathed, and gets no priority that would allow it to defeat mons with their own priority. And before anyone starts quoting its stats after a shell smash, remember that it needs the free turn to smash, and most competent players won't give it that free turn.
GOD YES PLEASE Mienfoo would certainly be deserving of S-tier, especially now that Gligar and Swirlix are gone. It just provides so much utility and lasts so long throughout the match. If you feel like running a frailer LO set, it hits really hard with STAB High Jump Kick, even harder than LO Murkrow's Brave Bird. U-turn is amazing, Knock Off is amazing, etc. And yeah, it's arguably the best Pawniard counter, so long as you run the fast spread.
I've added a list of current things to discuss at the bottom of the OP, now I'll post more shit:
Bunnelby - I agree with you here, it's kind of underwhelming and struggles with switching - it doesn't really aid teams in checking any particular threats so most of the time I'd rather use something else. B tier
Carvanha - I actually find this thing kind of lackluster, and with the prominence of fighting-types and many bulky things (like evio pawn) that can take a hit, it just needs a bit too much support to be S. A tier
Croagunk - This checks a lot of things right now, like Pawn, Tirtouga, Carvanha, Chinchou, Staryu etc... Although seemingly outclassed by Timburr it has the niche of also walling spritzee, which no other fighting-type can do... also helps much more vs. chinchou and other waters. enough of a niche for A tier. It gets Knock Off so I think it does pose enough of a threat because every mon hates that.
Larvesta - yeah B-tier, i'd rather use pony these days
Slowpoke - B-tier... Meditite has room for Tpunch now and Gligar is gone. Knock Off weak so doesn't wall fighting-types that well tbh.
Fletchling - A-tier. fantastic prio acrobatics mon, checks many things, great knock off switch in
Ponyta - A-tier... walls so much shit, faster than larvesta... i'd much rather use it, especially since i created sunnybeam, which means not even water types (except sturdy tirt) can beat it.
Mantyke- c-tier. agreeing with Expulso
shellder- since pawniard is very common i wouldn't be opposed to C but it seems fine in B... more discussion needed
Bunnelby - I agree with you here, it's kind of underwhelming and struggles with switching - it doesn't really aid teams in checking any particular threats so most of the time I'd rather use something else. B tier
Carvanha - I actually find this thing kind of lackluster, and with the prominence of fighting-types and many bulky things (like evio pawn) that can take a hit, it just needs a bit too much support to be S. A tier
Croagunk - This checks a lot of things right now, like Pawn, Tirtouga, Carvanha, Chinchou, Staryu etc... Although seemingly outclassed by Timburr it has the niche of also walling spritzee, which no other fighting-type can do... also helps much more vs. chinchou and other waters. enough of a niche for A tier. It gets Knock Off so I think it does pose enough of a threat because every mon hates that.
Larvesta - yeah B-tier, i'd rather use pony these days
Slowpoke - B-tier... Meditite has room for Tpunch now and Gligar is gone. Knock Off weak so doesn't wall fighting-types that well tbh.
Fletchling - A-tier. fantastic prio acrobatics mon, checks many things, great knock off switch in
Ponyta - A-tier... walls so much shit, faster than larvesta... i'd much rather use it, especially since i created sunnybeam, which means not even water types (except sturdy tirt) can beat it.
Mantyke- c-tier. agreeing with Expulso
shellder- since pawniard is very common i wouldn't be opposed to C but it seems fine in B... more discussion needed
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Croagunk/ helix a-tier: My boy gunk better go a-tier or I'll go bananas.
Gunk does things that no one else does batter, and the rewards of playing with gunk outweigh the risks so many times it ain't funny
his support set-The set i've messed around w/ the least this gen, but seemingly his most viable and i can't say i haven't seen it work when i've gone against it. Ho-ly crap, this ting amazes me with how versatile it is, and how many roles this set alone plays on the opponent's team. This thing takes hits, deals damage, revenge kills pawn, and a crapload of other stuff because it's just that great.
being able to check carvanha, lileep, chinch, mag, spritzee, pawn, star, turd, pory and other random carp is an amazing feat in this meta and is done best by Hypnotoad. access to knock off, a powerful poison stab that got buffed this gen giving it the ability to scare spritzee with the 2HKO, semi-reliable recovery in the form of drain punch, and priority makes this thing deserving of A alone
his Nasty Plot Set-this is my personal favorite gunk set because of how powerful it is and how many things it can set up on, such as scarfchou locked into water move, pawn fearing death, lileeps w'out earth power, scraggies w/out zenhead, and other crap
now u say "very little amaze. B tier" until you see the absolute destruction this thing reigns on LC
based foo
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Croagunk Sludge Bomb vs. 76 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 21-27 (95.4 - 122.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Croagunk Sludge Bomb vs. 236 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 21-27 (87.5 - 112.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Croagunk Sludge Bomb vs. 236 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 21-25 (87.5 - 104.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
timid kills w/ any prior dmg and timid has the same KO chance as on the first one
based fish
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Croagunk Sludge Bomb vs. 76 HP / 228 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 17-21 (68 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Vacuum wave proceeds to kill and it does not 2HKO w/ discharge if it chooses to run that
tite
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Croagunk Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 26-31 (136.8 - 163.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
still kills w/ investment unless maybe max hp max spdef
bunny
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Croagunk Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 228 SpD Bunnelby: 26-34 (130 - 170%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(and it hits Even harder w/ focus miss, although unreliable)
so as you can clearly see, this thing is a threat. modest hits like a specs keldeo with a kyurem-white duck taped to it's back, and timid hits like a slightly smaller specs keldeo with a scarfed sneasel on it's back.
his bulk up set- the least seen, and my least played with. I've seen bulk up a few times in gen 6, although far less than the other 2 sets, and it's playstyle is literally get killed by nothing and clean when murkrow/meditite/bunny are gone/severely crippled in some way like a freeze. It sets up all over foo and timburr, and takes hits better from other things because of eviolite being the preferred item on this set. also notable for taking minimal damage from physical moves starting at +2, and being able to retaliate with stronk attacks
sum calcs: +1 offense
+1 28+ Atk Croagunk Gunk Shot vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 24-30 (88.8 - 111.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 28+ Atk Croagunk Gunk Shot vs. 76 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 15-18 (68.1 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 28+ Atk Croagunk Gunk Shot vs. 124 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 28+ Atk Croagunk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Misdreavus: 24-30 (104.3 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 offense
+2 28+ Atk Croagunk Gunk Shot vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 32-38 (118.5 - 140.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 28+ Atk Croagunk Gunk Shot vs. 76 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 16-21 (72.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO mienfoo can't do jack back to it
+2 28+ Atk Croagunk Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Carvanha: 50-60 (238 - 285.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 defense
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. +2 212 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 14-18 (58.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. +2 212 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 18-23 (75 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Earthquake vs. +2 212 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 12-16 (50 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
anything past that is honestly insane and possibly GG unless abra, but now i think i might've proven my point in gunk's versatility, and gunk's power
carvanha- A+/S- carvanha is one of the biggest threats in the metagame right now just because of how fast and powerful it is, killing many top-tier threats
from waterfall to zen headbutt, it has all the coverage it needs to be a devastating late-game cleaner
it also has access to destiny bond, so it can be used as more of a suicide kamikaze if preferred later on in the match or maybe even earlygame to remove gigantic threats like foo and other mons
speaking of foo...
Mienfoo- S-tier definitely - I've always been blinded by my hate for mienfoo. but now that i have an inch of sense, i'm beginning to realize how verstile foo is within it's one role that it performs extremely well among other roles that it performs decently
Pivotfoo is the best foo set for a reason. Knock off, drain punch, uturn, regenerator. fake out to break sturdy, stone edge to hit unsuspecting ponies and larvae, maybe even taunt to stop dwebble from hazarding
LO foo is it's other p good set, in which it proceeds to nuke LC with Life orb knock off+hi jump kick, hitting everything hard bar eviogunk mentioned earlier, who resists both
Scarfoo deserves little more than a mention, as it is a solid revenge kiiller, and pretty powerful in it's own right
for those who thought wow tl;dr- basically, gunk for a because of versatility, support, and power, carvanha for A+/S if we add that because of how awesome it is late/earlygame, and foo for s bcuz foo
Gunk does things that no one else does batter, and the rewards of playing with gunk outweigh the risks so many times it ain't funny
his support set-The set i've messed around w/ the least this gen, but seemingly his most viable and i can't say i haven't seen it work when i've gone against it. Ho-ly crap, this ting amazes me with how versatile it is, and how many roles this set alone plays on the opponent's team. This thing takes hits, deals damage, revenge kills pawn, and a crapload of other stuff because it's just that great.
being able to check carvanha, lileep, chinch, mag, spritzee, pawn, star, turd, pory and other random carp is an amazing feat in this meta and is done best by Hypnotoad. access to knock off, a powerful poison stab that got buffed this gen giving it the ability to scare spritzee with the 2HKO, semi-reliable recovery in the form of drain punch, and priority makes this thing deserving of A alone
his Nasty Plot Set-this is my personal favorite gunk set because of how powerful it is and how many things it can set up on, such as scarfchou locked into water move, pawn fearing death, lileeps w'out earth power, scraggies w/out zenhead, and other crap
now u say "very little amaze. B tier" until you see the absolute destruction this thing reigns on LC
based foo
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Croagunk Sludge Bomb vs. 76 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 21-27 (95.4 - 122.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Croagunk Sludge Bomb vs. 236 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 21-27 (87.5 - 112.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Croagunk Sludge Bomb vs. 236 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 21-25 (87.5 - 104.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
timid kills w/ any prior dmg and timid has the same KO chance as on the first one
based fish
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Croagunk Sludge Bomb vs. 76 HP / 228 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 17-21 (68 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Vacuum wave proceeds to kill and it does not 2HKO w/ discharge if it chooses to run that
tite
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Croagunk Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 26-31 (136.8 - 163.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
still kills w/ investment unless maybe max hp max spdef
bunny
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Croagunk Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 228 SpD Bunnelby: 26-34 (130 - 170%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(and it hits Even harder w/ focus miss, although unreliable)
so as you can clearly see, this thing is a threat. modest hits like a specs keldeo with a kyurem-white duck taped to it's back, and timid hits like a slightly smaller specs keldeo with a scarfed sneasel on it's back.
his bulk up set- the least seen, and my least played with. I've seen bulk up a few times in gen 6, although far less than the other 2 sets, and it's playstyle is literally get killed by nothing and clean when murkrow/meditite/bunny are gone/severely crippled in some way like a freeze. It sets up all over foo and timburr, and takes hits better from other things because of eviolite being the preferred item on this set. also notable for taking minimal damage from physical moves starting at +2, and being able to retaliate with stronk attacks
sum calcs: +1 offense
+1 28+ Atk Croagunk Gunk Shot vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 24-30 (88.8 - 111.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 28+ Atk Croagunk Gunk Shot vs. 76 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 15-18 (68.1 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 28+ Atk Croagunk Gunk Shot vs. 124 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 28+ Atk Croagunk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Misdreavus: 24-30 (104.3 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 offense
+2 28+ Atk Croagunk Gunk Shot vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 32-38 (118.5 - 140.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 28+ Atk Croagunk Gunk Shot vs. 76 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 16-21 (72.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO mienfoo can't do jack back to it
+2 defense
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. +2 212 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 14-18 (58.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. +2 212 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 18-23 (75 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Earthquake vs. +2 212 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 12-16 (50 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
anything past that is honestly insane and possibly GG unless abra, but now i think i might've proven my point in gunk's versatility, and gunk's power
carvanha- A+/S- carvanha is one of the biggest threats in the metagame right now just because of how fast and powerful it is, killing many top-tier threats
from waterfall to zen headbutt, it has all the coverage it needs to be a devastating late-game cleaner
it also has access to destiny bond, so it can be used as more of a suicide kamikaze if preferred later on in the match or maybe even earlygame to remove gigantic threats like foo and other mons
speaking of foo...
Mienfoo- S-tier definitely - I've always been blinded by my hate for mienfoo. but now that i have an inch of sense, i'm beginning to realize how verstile foo is within it's one role that it performs extremely well among other roles that it performs decently
Pivotfoo is the best foo set for a reason. Knock off, drain punch, uturn, regenerator. fake out to break sturdy, stone edge to hit unsuspecting ponies and larvae, maybe even taunt to stop dwebble from hazarding
LO foo is it's other p good set, in which it proceeds to nuke LC with Life orb knock off+hi jump kick, hitting everything hard bar eviogunk mentioned earlier, who resists both
Scarfoo deserves little more than a mention, as it is a solid revenge kiiller, and pretty powerful in it's own right
for those who thought wow tl;dr- basically, gunk for a because of versatility, support, and power, carvanha for A+/S if we add that because of how awesome it is late/earlygame, and foo for s bcuz foo
just jotting down my thoughts:
I feel like Larvesta and Ponyta both belong in A. They're both great counters to most Fighting types, and both have their advantages and disadvantages. Ponyta is fast, Larvesta has the Bug-typing and most importantly, it has access to U-Turn, which amazing on a mon such as Larvesta.
I'm in support of moving Mienfoo to S-rank. It performs very well with great consitency as mentioned before, and it checks/counters a large number of threats in the current LC.
torchic to A torchic pass is broken as fuck (watch corkscrew vs artemisa if you're not convinced). Since torchic is the focal point of these teams, it should be A
scraggy to A Scraggy's Dragon Dance set remains amazing despite Spritzee being quite common. A lot of Mienfoo don't run as much bulk as they used to do, which means +1 High Jump Kick does a ton, and +2 (pretty easy to get to if using Moxie) always OHKO's. It's also an amazing user of Knock Off, being able to come in early, Knock Off it's own counters, and sweep later on.
cottonee to B Cottonee is amazing on offensive teams, as it provides a lot of support with priority Stun Spore, Memento, etc. It's also the best Carvanha counter in existence :]
Honedge to B Honedge performs very well both defensively and offensively. Defensively, it's main selling point is walling the shit out of Meditite. It also deals with Spritzee and Fletchling if it's not running any Fire moves. Offensively, it's STAB's hit everything that doesn't resist them hard, while Sacred Sword can be used for cool coverage.
Darumaka in B ohko everything
Lileep to B Lileep does what it did in gen 5, tank hits and recover them off. It counters nearly all special attacking threats in LC, while also dealing with some physical ones such as Drilbur and Murkrow, to an extent. it's also an amazing Stealth Rock setter for balanced/defensive teams.
I agree with Corkscrew that Slowpoke should be moved down to B. There's little to no S/A-tier mons which it counters, which makes it nearly useless against most teams
I feel like Larvesta and Ponyta both belong in A. They're both great counters to most Fighting types, and both have their advantages and disadvantages. Ponyta is fast, Larvesta has the Bug-typing and most importantly, it has access to U-Turn, which amazing on a mon such as Larvesta.
I'm in support of moving Mienfoo to S-rank. It performs very well with great consitency as mentioned before, and it checks/counters a large number of threats in the current LC.
torchic to A torchic pass is broken as fuck (watch corkscrew vs artemisa if you're not convinced). Since torchic is the focal point of these teams, it should be A
scraggy to A Scraggy's Dragon Dance set remains amazing despite Spritzee being quite common. A lot of Mienfoo don't run as much bulk as they used to do, which means +1 High Jump Kick does a ton, and +2 (pretty easy to get to if using Moxie) always OHKO's. It's also an amazing user of Knock Off, being able to come in early, Knock Off it's own counters, and sweep later on.
cottonee to B Cottonee is amazing on offensive teams, as it provides a lot of support with priority Stun Spore, Memento, etc. It's also the best Carvanha counter in existence :]
Honedge to B Honedge performs very well both defensively and offensively. Defensively, it's main selling point is walling the shit out of Meditite. It also deals with Spritzee and Fletchling if it's not running any Fire moves. Offensively, it's STAB's hit everything that doesn't resist them hard, while Sacred Sword can be used for cool coverage.
Darumaka in B ohko everything
Lileep to B Lileep does what it did in gen 5, tank hits and recover them off. It counters nearly all special attacking threats in LC, while also dealing with some physical ones such as Drilbur and Murkrow, to an extent. it's also an amazing Stealth Rock setter for balanced/defensive teams.
I agree with Corkscrew that Slowpoke should be moved down to B. There's little to no S/A-tier mons which it counters, which makes it nearly useless against most teams
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moved Mienfoo to S: seems to be pretty unanimous
Also, like to agree with Chieliee on Honedge and Cottonee, both clearly deserve B in my opinion. Cottonee could also be A, it walls so many things now that it's got a buffed typing, and provides so much utility. Honedge is just a pretty solid B now that Gligar is gone, being able to switch into quite a few things its known to wall, particularly Meditite.
Scraggy to A also sounds good, it really is a great sweeper and can get eventually break down Spritzee if it's running Knock Off + Poison Jab/Iron Head
no coments on Torchic - it could be an auto-win but if the opponent is prepared it can be pretty much useless. I think it's fine in B
Larvesta I think still deserves A, mainly due to STAB U-turn and it's great attack which is a massive selling point.
Also, like to agree with Chieliee on Honedge and Cottonee, both clearly deserve B in my opinion. Cottonee could also be A, it walls so many things now that it's got a buffed typing, and provides so much utility. Honedge is just a pretty solid B now that Gligar is gone, being able to switch into quite a few things its known to wall, particularly Meditite.
Scraggy to A also sounds good, it really is a great sweeper and can get eventually break down Spritzee if it's running Knock Off + Poison Jab/Iron Head
no coments on Torchic - it could be an auto-win but if the opponent is prepared it can be pretty much useless. I think it's fine in B
Larvesta I think still deserves A, mainly due to STAB U-turn and it's great attack which is a massive selling point.
Larvesta is very much B in current meta, Misdreavus is super common right now so there's no point in spinning. Vullaby and Archen are the only good Defoggers. It's fairly hard to deal with Stealth Rocks right now without using Vullaby, which makes Larvesta a very weak pick imo. Myself and quite a few number of other players have started using Stone Edge even on full bulky Foo in order to one shot Larvesta and Fletchling.
But its U Turn is really strong, yeah yeah, but if you're keeping Larvesta in A then Ponyta really HAS to be A as well, Ponyta does almost everything Larvesta can. Some things it does better, like checking Meditite, some things it does worse, like fighting Timburr. It doesn't have U Turn, but it has access to the 19 speed tier and isn't 4x weak to SR. I posted basically the same thing a few pages back but zzzzz it never happened.
tl;dr PONY TO A. NOW c:
But its U Turn is really strong, yeah yeah, but if you're keeping Larvesta in A then Ponyta really HAS to be A as well, Ponyta does almost everything Larvesta can. Some things it does better, like checking Meditite, some things it does worse, like fighting Timburr. It doesn't have U Turn, but it has access to the 19 speed tier and isn't 4x weak to SR. I posted basically the same thing a few pages back but zzzzz it never happened.
tl;dr PONY TO A. NOW c:
nah, usually gligar would end up beating pawniard, and pawniard really only beat swirlix's calm mind set somewhat reliably. if it were to drop, it would be for the rise in fighting-types and the resultant rise in flame body users. i don't think it should though, stab knock off is still extremely powerful, and it shits on spritzee, and can check flying-types decently well. even though it's weak to fighting-types, that doesn't stop it from performing well as a knock off user
I'm not a strong LC player, but I strongly disagree there, Pawniard is 100% S Rank in my opinion. It is basically the most dangerous Swords Dance sweeper in the metagame right now, the type chart changes made Pawniard more effective as a sweeper; it can sweep with priority Sucker Punch and its access to Knock Off is simply amazing. Yeah, it gets countered by Fighting-types, but a timely Knock Off will hurt them quite a bit. Iron Head and Dark STAB complement each other really well and it handles quite a number of top threats. Not to mention it's a good SR setter which is important too.
I have to agree here. Unlike most defoggers, Drilbur doesn't have to worry about pawniard coming in to snatch an attack boost. Mold Breaker is fantastic with all the SturdyJuicers hanging around.
So, what about Wynaut to B? It's a pretty solid answer to many threats: Fighting-types, Bunnelby, Spritzee, Slowpoke, Abra, etc. It has Encore which can stop pokes from setting up, Destiny Bond to fuck with bitches, and Counter/Mirror Coat are pretty cool, but mixed attackers can toy with it. Idk, I mostly used it to counter Meditite on my team,but Wynaut has proven to have the ability to check so much more.
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