Minimise and Weight/Size Class Based Moves

[Dogfish44]

Thread will be moderated, keep discussion on track and sensible. Thanks!

Minimize got an update moving into Gen 6! Now we need to figure out how we're implementing it, since some of the moves that don't currently rely on weight in ASB now do so.

It once was that only Stomp and Steamroller received double BAP against Minimized targets. But now with Generation 6, Body Slam, Phantom Force, Dragon Rush, and Flying Press also receive double BAP against Minimized targets. Normally this would not be an issue, however, the way Stomp, Steamroller, and Body Slam's BAP are calculated (by weight) differs from Dragon Rush, Flying Press, and Phantom Force's BAP calculation (a fixed BAP). We seem to have already implemented Phantom Force, but not Dragon Rush and Flying Press. Before we go any further, I feel that we need to discuss the most appropriate manner to implement the increased BAP against Minimized targets. Mainly, do we go with two (2) more BAP against Minimized targets for all 6 moves, Doubled BAP against Minimized targets for all 6 moves, or a combination of the two (+2 BAP for weight based moves and doubled BAP for non weight based moves)?

For the time being, use Akela's post as a basis for discussion - in particular we need to figure out if we should update moves that are now influenced by minimise to be size/weight based.

 

[akela]

For ease of reference, this is the current information for the 6 moves affected by the opponent using minimize (In the form of the old DAT's layout)...

Body Slam: "The user jumps on top of the opponent with great force. The strength of the impact on pinned downed limbs can lead to paralysis. The attack does more damage against smaller foes. If the opponent has used Minimize, the BAP increases by two (2)."
BAP: 7 + User Weight Class/2.5 (round up) | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 5 + Weight Class/3 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: 30% | Contact: Yes | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Deferring

Dragon Rush: "The user rushes at the foe while charged with fearsome energy. When the attack hits, the energy may scare the foe and make them flinch."
BAP: 10 | Accuracy: 75% | Energy Cost: 7 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: 20% | Contact: Yes | Typing: Dragon | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental

Flying Press: "The Pokemon leaps into the air and strikes the foe with a devastating blow from above. The attack has both Fighting and Flying-type properties, and checks cumulative type effectiveness against both elements (e.g. a Pokemon weak to both Fighting and Flying would take 4x damage)."
BAP: 8 | Accuracy: 95% | Energy Cost: 6 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Fighting | Priority: 0 | CT: Force

Phantom Force: "The Pokemon disappears briefly into a shadow dimension before striking an opponent from behind, evading all attacks in the process. This attack nullifies any Protect, Detect, Quick Guard, Wide Guard, Crafty Shield, King's Shield or Spiky Shield active on the target, as well as the protective and evasive effects of Evasive Agility, Evasive Teleport, Acid Armor and Barrier. The attack does more damage against smaller foes. If the target is under the effects of Minimize, Phantom Force has its Base Attack Power doubled (x2)."
BAP: 9 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 10 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Ghost | Priority: 0 and -1 | CT: Set

Steamroller: "The Pokemon steamrolls the opposing Pokemon by rolling into a ball and thrusting itself toward the opponent. The force can cause the attack to flinch the opponent. The attack does more damage against smaller foes. If the opponent has used Minimize, the Base Attack Power increases by two (2)."
BAP: 9 + (User Size Class - Target Size Class)| Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 7 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: 30% | Contact: Yes | Typing: Bug | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental

Stomp: "The user stomps down hard with its foot or equivalent. If its opponent is much taller than the user can raise its leg, the Pokemon aims for a vulnerable area like toes or a tail. The force can cause the attack to flinch the opponent. The attack does more damage against smaller foes. If the opponent has used Minimize, the BAP increases by two (2)."
BAP: 9 + (User Size Class - Target Size Class) | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 7 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: 30% | Contact: Yes | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

 

[Geodude6]

...maybe we could add a clause to Dragon Rush, Flying Press, and Phantom Force that grants an additional 2 BAP against minimized targets? It fits in with the other 3 moves.

 

[akela]

...maybe we could add a clause to Dragon Rush, Flying Press, and Phantom Force that grants an additional 2 BAP against minimized targets? It fits in with the other 3 moves.

Which was already stated in the Original Post. Why should we go with +2 BAP against minimized targets for those 3 moves? Why not double them and +2 for the weight/sized based moves? Why not change the BAP calculation of those 3 moves to be weight/sized based? Why not double all the moves' BAP?

 

[ZhengTann]

Throwing out that Pursuit also doubles BAP (from 4 to 8) against opponents who use Minimize, amongst other things:

The user chases the opponent down in a predatory fashion. If used on an opposing Pokemon ordered to Bounce, Dig, Dive, Dodge, Double Team, Fly, Take Cover, Teleport, U-turn, Volt Change, Double Team, Minimize, or execute any other evasive action, this move's BAP becomes 8 instead of 4, its accuracy becomes perfect instead of 100%, and its Priority becomes that of the target's evasive action. Foes dealt damage by Pursuit will fail to produce Double Team clones that action and lose any that they might have. Foes dealt damage by Pursuit fail to perform self-switching or self-phazing moves that action.

Also, one of the shifty things ("shifty" in a good, or at least, neutral way, I think) is going by the "in-catridge BAP divide by 10" rule, Body Slam and Steamroller would have 9 and 7 BAP respectively, yet in ASB they had a BAP of 7 and 9 respectively (wow, reversed) plus influence from the user's/opponent's Weight/Size Classes. This might have to do with the equations themselves, though - hopefully we can get Deck to explain his thoughts on the design. With regards to Dogfish's concerns about updating the moves to be size/weight based (yay fun times) under normal conditions, I'm in favour of us brainstorming around the equations for that.

Concerning those 6 moves being used against Minimize users though, I'd prefer going with precedence (referring to the pre-Gen 6 times) where Stomp and Steamroller recieved a +2 BAP, when in-catridge their power is doubled. Also, according to Bulba the listed 6 moves have perfect accuracy when used against Minimized opponents, so I'm motioning that we put it up on the DAT descriptions too, for the sake of consistency.

 

[akela]

May I ask where you obtained this information about Pursuit ZhengTann? I cannot find it on Veekun, Serebii, Bulbapedia, or Smogon.

 

[Its_A_Random]

akela: It is ASB specific (Located in the NDA). I think it is because Minimise can also be seen as a chance to evade an attack, so I guess that fits the criteria that Pursuit needs to basically cock-block the evasive action (well not exactly in the case of Minimise, it still occurs iirc).

Basically this is ASB deviating from in-game, just like Double Team, normalised stats, etc. etc etc. That description is also super outdated since it mentions Volt Change instead of Volt Switch for the record.

 

[Gerard]

Honestly, if it wasn't for Body Slam I would be in favor of doubling the dmg on every move, but thanks to it I'm wary about making minimize useless. How about we raise the BP by x1.5 since that's what most things that "double" in-game do here? it's still a good boost without being even better than a SE Hit

 

[akela]

Honestly, if it wasn't for Body Slam I would be in favor of doubling the dmg on every move, but thanks to it I'm wary about making minimize useless. How about we raise the BP by x1.5 since that's what most things that "double" in-game do here? it's still a good boost without being even better than a SE Hit

Most things being not moves.

Illustration of point

Pursuit? Doubles in BAP when used against switches, like in game. Payback? Doubles in BAP when used against an opponent that has already moved, like in game. Assurance? Doubles in BAP when used against an opponent that has already been damaged this turn/action, like in game. Facade? Doubles in BAP when the user is statused, like in game. Venoshock? Nearly doubles in BAP when the target is poisoned/badly poisoned, although in game the BP doubles, but this difference is due to using whole numbers instead of decimals/fractions for BAP (in most cases). Brine? Nearly doubles in BAP when the target is at half or less than half max HP, although in game the BP doubles, but this difference is due to using whole numbers instead of decimals/fractions for BAP (in most cases). Smelling Salts? Doubles in BAP when the target is paralyzed, just like in game. Wake-Up Slap? Doubles in BAP when the target is asleep, just like in game. Retaliate? Doubles in BAP when an ally fainted the previous round/turn, just like in game. Round? Doubles in BAP if an ally used it this turn, just like in game.

I think I may be forgetting a few moves but it illustrates a point: Why increase these moves' BAP by x1.5 instead of doubling them when nearly every other move in ASB that has its BP doubled or nearly doubled has its BAP nearly doubled?

 

[Its_A_Random]

Because apparently minimising your Size Class & having an asdfghjkl; dodge rate (Minimise +Speed Starmie has an effective base dodge rate of 85% against 100% Accurate moves, with a guaranteed dodge against non +Speed Pokémon with a speed of 58 or less) is a super weak effect?

Yeah I support doubling the power of those moves. Minimise is a severely underrated effect, & its synergy with Dodge is incredible. Doubling the power of those moves gives many Pokémon some sort of appropriate countermeasure to deal with Minimise.

 

[akela]

I guess an alternative course of action would be to make Flying Press, Dragon Rush, and Phantom Force Size/Weight based and give all the moves +2 BAP against Minimized/Minimised opponents. Personally, I would oppose going the route of making Flying Press, Dragon Rush, and Phantom Force size/weight based, but I guess it is an option.

Would be nice to get more discussion on the issue. I do worry about 18 BAP Phantom Force, 16 BAP Flying Press, and 20 BAP Dragon Rush while Body Slam only attains 14 BAP when used by Mega Aggron with Heavy Metal against a Minimized/Minimised Pokemon. Steamroller reaches 15 BAP when used by Scolipede against a Minimized/Minimised Pokemon and Stomp hits 15 BAP when used by Rhyperior against a Minimized/Minimised Pokemon.

In regards to the perfect accuracy boost of the 6 moves against Minimized/Minimised Pokemon, I do not oppose it.

 

[Pallas Athena]

I support doubling. Minimize can actually be a really annoying move given the bulk and HP of some of its recipients, and this would hardly be "making it useless." Barring compelling flavor or balance reasons, sticking with in-game effects is the most desirable course of action.

 

[Psyco_Josho]

I support doubling BAP.

 

[ZhengTann]

I guess an alternative course of action would be to make Flying Press, Dragon Rush, and Phantom Force Size/Weight based and give all the moves +2 BAP against Minimised opponents. Personally, I would oppose going the route of making Flying Press, Dragon Rush, and Phantom Force size/weight based, but I guess it is an option.

Would be nice to get more discussion on the issue. I do worry about 18 BAP Phantom Force, 16 BAP Flying Press, and 20 BAP Dragon Rush while Body Slam only attains 14 BAP when used by Mega Aggron with Heavy Metal against a Minimised Pokemon. Steamroller reaches 15 BAP when used by Scolipede against a Minimized/Minimised Pokemon and Stomp hits 15 BAP when used by Rhyperior against a Minimised Pokemon.

In regards to the perfect accuracy boost of the 6 moves against Minimized/Minimised Pokemon, I do not oppose it.

Sorry for quoting your post in full, akela, but it does point out 2 things that buff the list of moves in OP against Minimised opponents:

1. The said moves get perfect accuracy.
   
2. The said moves get doubled BAP.

Well I think having 18 BAP Protect-breaking Phantom Force against a Minimised target counts as okay. But an 18 BAP Protect-breaking perfect accuracy Phantom Force against a Minimised target?

Yeah, IAR was right about Minimize making Dodge a helluva lot more effective than it ever would be, but the counter-argument to that premise is that a battler would need to spend an action on Minimize, and then another action on Dodge, to gain that advantage, in a game where a KO statistically happens around every 6 actions. Of course the passive +1 Evasion is neat, but it's not a given - battler still need to work for it, and even then it could be worked against (Thunder in Rain, Pursuit, etc.) Not to mention the "perfect accuracy" part already gives the listed moves a definitive countermeasure. So I don't think doubling BAP is a good idea, when in another ongoing discussion, people are saying 15 BAP STABs are overpowered.

 

[Gerard]

What I think:
A) If the move has perfect acc vs minimize then it has perfect acc, otherwise no
B) I still think x1.5 BP would be the best way since most moves that have their power doubled have already been boosted since their BP is weight based instad of a set amount
C) We should probably wait a little to finish the other weight-class discussion since the BP could be altered (or the weight part removed completely)

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I think few enough people give a shit about this discussion that I'm fine implementing the general consensus in this thread, double BAP, perfect accuracy vs minimize.

Minimize is evasion aka hax based enough, and Body Slam isn't universally given enough that I don't see a problem there.

Book 'em danno.