Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

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I want to nominate Gliscor, Hippowdon and Zapdos for A/A-/A- (respectively).

Gliscor is an amazing tank. It's easy to compare him to Lando-T, so I'll do that.

Benefits of Gliscor over Landorus:
A TON of reliable recovery.
Faster speed.
Much higher physical bulk.
Immune to status.
Isn't scared of Knock Off (After he's poisoned).
Not reliant on Intimidate (This point and the last one make him a much better check to Bisharp).
Adding to this ^ Landorus must be constantly switching to take advantage of his ability, which can hurt him due to the lack of recovery (SR).
Checks and can set up on Landorus generally (Free turns).

Benefits of Landorus over Gliscor:
Much higher attack.
Slightly better special defense (5 points).
Intimidate adds a lot of physical bulk.
More unpredictable due to wider movepool.
Can use special attacks much easier.

I understand that unpredictability goes a long way, but the advantages of using Lando-T over Gliscor are not that many. Gliscor's recovery more than makes up for Lando-T's attack stat in my eyes, and if the opposing team has a Bisharp that Intimidate becomes a liability (Especially since Lando-T generally likes Defog support!). I feel like Lando-T works better on bulky offensive teams, while Gliscor is better for more balanced teams. However, due to Lando-T's movepool, I think he does deserve to be a bit higher than Gliscor. I'd like to see Gliscor in A, or at the very least A-.


Arguments for Hippowdon and Zapdos have already been made for both of them going up to A-, I agree with the previous posts. Hippowdon and Zapdos for A-.
 
Bravadorado said:
I want to nominate Gliscor, Hippowdon and Zapdos for A/A-/A- (respectively).

Gliscor is an amazing tank. It's easy to compare him to Lando-T, so I'll do that.

Benefits of Gliscor over Landorus:
A TON of reliable recovery.
Faster speed.
Much higher physical bulk.
Immune to status.
Isn't scared of Knock Off (After he's poisoned).
Not reliant on Intimidate (This point and the last one make him a much better check to Bisharp).
Adding to this ^ Landorus must be constantly switching to take advantage of his ability, which can hurt him due to the lack of recovery (SR).
Checks and can set up on Landorus generally (Free turns).

Benefits of Landorus over Gliscor:
Much higher attack.
Slightly better special defense (5 points).
Intimidate adds a lot of physical bulk.
More unpredictable due to wider movepool.
Can use special attacks much easier.

I understand that unpredictability goes a long way, but the advantages of using Lando-T over Gliscor are not that many. Gliscor's recovery more than makes up for Lando-T's attack stat in my eyes, and if the opposing team has a Bisharp that Intimidate becomes a liability (Especially since Lando-T generally likes Defog support!). I feel like Lando-T works better on bulky offensive teams, while Gliscor is better for more balanced teams. However, due to Lando-T's movepool, I think he does deserve to be a bit higher than Gliscor. I'd like to see Gliscor in A, or at the very least A-.


Arguments for Hippowdon and Zapdos have already been made for both of them going up to A-, I agree with the previous posts. Hippowdon and Zapdos for A-.
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I have to agree with this. Toxic stall is an underestimated, and in the current meta, oft unprepared for strategy that can cripple whole teams at a time. Steel types are not as prevalent (aside the somewhat common excadrill, and the stall team's skarmory, and scizor) so toxic is more harmful, and with a physical leaning meta game, gliscor's physical bulk is even more appreciated.

Certainly deserves to be A or A- alongside hippowdon.


As for Zapdos, I'm interested in how viable it will be now that mega lucario is gone.

Just off the top of my head I can see it being a great counter to pinsir, talonflame, and to a certain extent, aegislash.

However it has a bit of 4MSS. It needs thunderbolt and heat wave for coverage, but appreciates status moves like Defog, roost, protect, and toxic.

I've recently started using Zapdos and have found nothing disappointing but nothing to make it stand out.
 
LoDart210 said:
I have to agree with this. Toxic stall is an underestimated, and in the current meta, oft unprepared for strategy that can cripple whole teams at a time. Steel types are not as prevalent (aside the somewhat common excadrill, and the stall team's skarmory, and scizor) so toxic is more harmful, and with a physical leaning meta game, gliscor's physical bulk is even more appreciated.

Certainly deserves to be A or A- alongside hippowdon.


As for Zapdos, I'm interested in how viable it will be now that mega lucario is gone.

Just off the top of my head I can see it being a great counter to pinsir, talonflame, and to a certain extent, aegislash.

However it has a bit of 4MSS. It needs thunderbolt and heat wave for coverage, but appreciates status moves like Defog, roost, protect, and toxic.

I've recently started using Zapdos and have found nothing disappointing but nothing to make it stand out.
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Zapdos is, in many ways, an abuser of an excellent typing but 4MSS seems a bit much. When I have used him, I have never thought of Defog being "amazing" or a "must have" with ol Sparky. With many better users, him using it just seems misplaced and unwise to use.

With Heat Wave and Thunderbolt as his main attacks, he is in an interesting condition alongside Mega Manectric in that he covers alot of bases with said move, yet he is not traditionally an attacking machine. He can go toxic/heatwave/tbolt/roost and cover his bases while still being a great defensive presence. His attack stat is high for something ment to take hits, making him not a sitting duck in any sense.

That's how I view him at least. Might need to get to class...
 
One excellent trait that Zapdos possesses over other Defog users is the ability to directly threaten Bisharp, which can switch in fairly easily on Latias, Mandibuzz and Skarmory. Mega Lucario may be gone, but the Flying resistance is still extremely useful for taking on common threats like Mega Pinsir and Talonflame. Defog support isn't all Zapdos has to offer either: SubRoost sets are still relevant and can catch many players off guard.

However, due to its good-but-not-great defensive stats, it has problems taking on many of the heavy hitters in the metagame even with investment, such as Charizard Y and Keldeo. I'm debating whether it should stay in B+ rank or be promoted to A- rank; regardless, it's still a very solid Pokémon in OU that can function well on the right team.
 
sonnytapman said:
To ask a question, why does mega Medicham have the most powerful attack in the game?
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Well, it has an (effective) attack stat of 251, and it has access to an effectively 195 base power move (High Jump Kick). Only one other pokemon has a higher attacking stat, M. Mawile, and its highest BP move is only 150 base power. So Medicham has the hardest hitting move in the game.
 
finncent1 said:
Well, it has an (effective) attack stat of 251, and it has access to an effectively 195 base power move (High Jump Kick). Only one other pokemon has a higher attacking stat, M. Mawile, and its highest BP move is only 150 base power. So Medicham has the hardest hitting move in the game.
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All I needed to know. Thank You.
 
I would like to nominate alakazam for A/A+ rank.For revenge killers,there isn't really anything more reliable(unless you look at ditto,but ditto is deadweight against stall,zam isnt.)The magic guard+focus sash combo means that it can come in,with its sash intact every time.This obviously means that it only has one shot to KO what it is facing,but timid base 135 special attack with the possibility to hit both sides of the spectrum with psyshock means that it can net KOes against alot of the offensive pokemon normally used to sweep.Not to mention it has perfect coverage+STAB in 3 moveslots,with psyshock,shadow ball,and focus blast/dazzling gleam(shadow ball+dazzling gleam are only resisted by pyroar).OFC it loses to priority but it comes in after something has died,so it take the priority hit and KOes back.The only real flaws holding zam from S are the fact that it's so frail it needs to use sash and its garbage typing,why this thing was ever in B i don't know.
 
Cockfighter said:
I would like to nominate alakazam for A/A+ rank.For revenge killers,there isn't really anything more reliable(unless you look at ditto,but ditto is deadweight against stall,zam isnt.)The magic guard+focus sash combo means that it can come in,with its sash intact every time.This obviously means that it only has one shot to KO what it is facing,but timid base 135 special attack with the possibility to hit both sides of the spectrum with psyshock means that it can net KOes against alot of the offensive pokemon normally used to sweep.Not to mention it has perfect coverage+STAB in 3 moveslots,with psyshock,shadow ball,and focus blast/dazzling gleam(shadow ball+dazzling gleam are only resisted by pyroar).OFC it loses to priority but it comes in after something has died,so it take the priority hit and KOes back.The only real flaws holding zam from S are the fact that it's so frail it needs to use sash and its garbage typing,why this thing was ever in B i don't know.
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A and A+ are both too generous for Zam, in my opinion. The flaws you state are pretty much why he's B instead of A, not should be A instead of S. Its mediocre typing, reliance on one item, terrible bulk, and non-boosted attacking power are flaws that cannot be overlooked. Its great speed, good special attack, and fantastic ability are able to partially bypass its flaws, but still don't make an A rank Pokemon. It is VERY weak to priority, and often cannot even OHKO priority users before they break its sash. And, if Zam does KO the opponent, all the opponent needs is another priority user and Zam is done for. Lastly, Zam is severely hurt by the fact that it has only one time it can ever switch in. It can take 0 hits, and can only be used as a check to something.
I may support B+, but after using it for its best job as a revenge killing, I personally don't see it ever becoming A or A+.
 
finncent1 said:
A and A+ are both too generous for Zam, in my opinion. The flaws you state are pretty much why he's B instead of A, not should be A instead of S. Its mediocre typing, reliance on one item, terrible bulk, and non-boosted attacking power are flaws that cannot be overlooked. Its great speed, good special attack, and fantastic ability are able to partially bypass its flaws, but still don't make an A rank Pokemon. It is VERY weak to priority, and often cannot even OHKO priority users before they break its sash. And, if Zam does KO the opponent, all the opponent needs is another priority user and Zam is done for. Lastly, Zam is severely hurt by the fact that it has only one time it can ever switch in. It can take 0 hits, and can only be used as a check to something.
I may support B+, but after using it for its best job as a revenge killing, I personally don't see it ever becoming A or A+.
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Yeah, Zam is the best at what it does, but it's not a huge niche and most teams would prefer a revenge killer that can do its job multiple times like Talonflame rather than a one-time guaranteed stop like Zam. I can definitely see B+ because it's pretty great within its niche, but no higher than that imo.
 
Cockfighter said:
I would like to nominate alakazam for A/A+ rank.For revenge killers,there isn't really anything more reliable(unless you look at ditto,but ditto is deadweight against stall,zam isnt.)The magic guard+focus sash combo means that it can come in,with its sash intact every time.This obviously means that it only has one shot to KO what it is facing,but timid base 135 special attack with the possibility to hit both sides of the spectrum with psyshock means that it can net KOes against alot of the offensive pokemon normally used to sweep.Not to mention it has perfect coverage+STAB in 3 moveslots,with psyshock,shadow ball,and focus blast/dazzling gleam(shadow ball+dazzling gleam are only resisted by pyroar).OFC it loses to priority but it comes in after something has died,so it take the priority hit and KOes back.The only real flaws holding zam from S are the fact that it's so frail it needs to use sash and its garbage typing,why this thing was ever in B i don't know.
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The biggest problem for Zam is it can only get the assured kill once. But even then it's conditional: the target can't both have 100% HP and have priority, or zam is dead.

It outspeeds and 2HKOs a wide variety of pokemon, that's pretty good. But that's not enough to make A rank.
 
Galladium said:
I'd like to nominate Malamar for C+ rank. Although it's base stats aren't too good, Contrary Superpower works really well, and it has dual STABS in Night Slash and Psycho Cut. Topsy Turvy also works really well, providing that Malamar can survive the first hit it can cripple an opponent's sweeper, forcing a switch. I've used this tactic before to destroy Baton Pass teams, which is psychological murder when your opponent realises that all the setting up they did is now worse than useless.

Trick Room is also an option for it, as is running an Assault Vest with Rock Slide for Bug types.

So, despite having a 4x weakness to U-Turn and low speed, I still think it should have a place in OU, for the reasons outlined above.
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I'm not going to dismiss this right away because of my prejudice against Malamar - it may be decent enough to get past D, I have no experience with it. I am however going to dismiss it right away because we're only discussing things in B or B+ right now. Save Malamar for later, it'll have its chance.

Anybody else have opinions on Tornadus-T moving up to B+ or A-? I feel like it's a really strong pokemon that deserves better than B.
 
TooMuchSugar said:
I'm not going to dismiss this right away because of my prejudice against Malamar - it may be decent enough to get past D, I have no experience with it. I am however going to dismiss it right away because we're only discussing things in B or B+ right now. Save Malamar for later, it'll have its chance.

Anybody else have opinions on Tornadus-T moving up to B+ or A-? I feel like it's a really strong pokemon that deserves better than B.
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Tornadus-T is a monster. Regenerator allows it to run a great Assult Vest Set or Life Orb set, making it very threatening. It's offense is still nothing to laugh at, it can go mixed with great moves like Heat Wave, Knock Off (oh, dat Knock Off), Super Power, U-Turn, Focus Blast and Hidden Power.

Unfortunatly, what is holding it back is unreliable STAB. Without perma Rain it is almost impossible to hit Hurricane and Air Slash has a chance of missing and not to mention it is just too weak to take something down, though it does have the flinch chance it is not Togekiss.

B Rank is still fine for it.
 
I want to nominate Hydreigon as a B pokemon. Not so much for it's offense as its interesting supporty mandibuzz-like and latias-like capabilities and the enormously useful Dark type. Gen IV is different, it's best sets have Roost now, and it has many opportunities to do so. Immunity to 3 hazards and only neutral to SR. It has nice 92/90/90 defenses, but more importantly it has AWESOME resistances. It's really hard to resist Ghost and Dark nowadays, then add immunity to psychic and ground, and finally resists water/electric/grass/fire.

It's the best user of STAB Dark Pulse which a LOT of people aren't prepared for. And that one move + Roost lets it beat: Rotom, 60%-75% Aegis, Deoxys-D, Heatran, Venusaur, Ferrothorn, Gliscor, Skarm, and Slowbro. It wall breaks or outstalls every single one of them with *one move*, and you need Roost for your sustain, leaving 2 moves completely free. Substitute, U-Turn, Flamethrower, Superpower, Thunder Wave, ... Draco Meteor? OBVIOUSLY it's speed is the issue, but it's fast enough to beat Landorus, Excadrill, Kyurem, and unevolved Pinsir. It can also stall out Chary-Y if it gets in safe. It is differentiated from Kyurem and Latis by it's typing, mixed capabilities, speed tier, and HEAD SMASH.

All if the above is accomplishable without an item, leaving that choice completely up to you, and knock off won't be terrible. BULK and SPEED and OFFENSIVE PRESENCE are completely redefined concepts in Gen VI, and Hydreigon has a B mix of all 3. I'm not trying to oversell it. It lacks priority, speed, and Fairy/Fighting crush it, but it has an exceptional tool-box movepool. Use Dark Pulse and Roost, get some HP EVs in there, and use the remaining 2 moves to support your team. It is B because every specialty it has is outclassed by something faster, but the jack-of-all capabilities and important typing keep it OU relevant.
 
Ferrothorn in A-. The loss of the ghost and dark resistances dont affect him that much. He gained a resistance to fairy and still has premier resistances to water,electric and rock mooves. Also he is a spore absorber very usefull for the team overall. I think he isnt a or a+ because the rain nerf and that loss of resistances. Anyway its the second option for a wall (rotom-w is first sure) and a force which every team should consider using it. EDIT: lol rotom-w is a tank or a wall? I am new here in smogon sorri for the mistakes.
 
56k said:
I want to nominate Hydreigon as a B pokemon. Not so much for it's offense as its interesting supporty mandibuzz-like and latias-like capabilities and the enormously useful Dark type. Gen IV is different, it's best sets have Roost now, and it has many opportunities to do so. Immunity to 3 hazards and only neutral to SR. It has nice 92/90/90 defenses, but more importantly it has AWESOME resistances. It's really hard to resist Ghost and Dark nowadays, then add immunity to psychic and ground, and finally resists water/electric/grass/fire.

It's the best user of STAB Dark Pulse which a LOT of people aren't prepared for. And that one move + Roost lets it beat: Rotom, 60%-75% Aegis, Deoxys-D, Heatran, Venusaur, Ferrothorn, Gliscor, Skarm, and Slowbro. It wall breaks or outstalls every single one of them with *one move*, and you need Roost for your sustain, leaving 2 moves completely free. Substitute, U-Turn, Flamethrower, Superpower, Thunder Wave, ... Draco Meteor? OBVIOUSLY it's speed is the issue, but it's fast enough to beat Landorus, Excadrill, Kyurem, and unevolved Pinsir. It can also stall out Chary-Y if it gets in safe. It is differentiated from Kyurem and Latis by it's typing, mixed capabilities, speed tier, and HEAD SMASH.

All if the above is accomplishable without an item, leaving that choice completely up to you, and knock off won't be terrible. BULK and SPEED and OFFENSIVE PRESENCE are completely redefined concepts in Gen VI, and Hydreigon has a B mix of all 3. I'm not trying to oversell it. It lacks priority, speed, and Fairy/Fighting crush it, but it has an exceptional tool-box movepool. Use Dark Pulse and Roost, get some HP EVs in there, and use the remaining 2 moves to support your team. It is B because every specialty it has is outclassed by something faster, but the jack-of-all capabilities and important typing keep it OU relevant.
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This was brought up before and while I really like hydreigon and think he's good my argument is the same, that being:


In a physical leaning meta game, and many powerful special walls, as well as the coming of assault vest, hydreigon just doesn't cut it. It can go mixed, but what's the point when its special moves are walled to hell and back.

Additionally, the key speed tier for wall breakers this gen is base 100 (see char y, Medicham) which is why kyu-b tends to run a speed nature.

Hydreigon would have to as well, losing out on desperately needed special attack.

I'm not going to bring up fairy weakness because personally, I've noted that aside from key fairy moves (hyper voice on sylveon and m-gardevoir, and clefable's moonblast) fairy as an offensive type is almost non existant.

Hydreigon is know to viciously compete with Latios, hydreigon usually being picked for unpredictability and better mixed stats, and Latios for speed and mixed spectrum attacking.

Latios is only seeing usage now because of offensive Defog sets. Yes, his special attack is powerful and he can run earthquake/shadow ball being a better lure for heatran/aegislash, which means he can scare away opponents and reliably Defog.

Hydreigon has none of that utility and its "unpredictability" is largely overrated as players are often too keen to send in their hydreigon against a Pokemon it normally does not have coverage against, giving away the fact it has coverage, making it predictable.

Hydreigon isn't bad, its just not good for the current meta game.
 
LoDart210 said:
This was brought up before and while I really like hydreigon and think he's good my argument is the same, that being:


In a physical leaning meta game, and many powerful special walls, as well as the coming of assault vest, hydreigon just doesn't cut it. It can go mixed, but what's the point when its special moves are walled to hell and back.

Additionally, the key speed tier for wall breakers this gen is base 100 (see char y, Medicham) which is why kyu-b tends to run a speed nature.

Hydreigon would have to as well, losing out on desperately needed special attack.

I'm not going to bring up fairy weakness because personally, I've noted that aside from key fairy moves (hyper voice on sylveon and m-gardevoir, and clefable's moonblast) fairy as an offensive type is almost non existant.

Hydreigon is know to viciously compete with Latios, hydreigon usually being picked for unpredictability and better mixed stats, and Latios for speed and mixed spectrum attacking.

Latios is only seeing usage now because of offensive Defog sets. Yes, his special attack is powerful and he can run earthquake/shadow ball being a better lure for heatran/aegislash, which means he can scare away opponents and reliably Defog.

Hydreigon has none of that utility and its "unpredictability" is largely overrated as players are often too keen to send in their hydreigon against a Pokemon it normally does not have coverage against, giving away the fact it has coverage, making it predictable.

Hydreigon isn't bad, its just not good for the current meta game.
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Got to disagree here. Hydreigon cant be walled that easily on the special side, the only thing that can wall him there are the pink blobs and they wall just about everything specialy oriented. Skarmory, Mandibuzz, Spd Hippowdon, Mega Venusaur can all be disposed of by a combination of Dark Pulse/Fireblast and Draco Meteor and Blissey gets vaporized by Superpower, even Chansey can be 2hkoed after SR. He isnt as strong as Kyu B or Mega Garchomp but he can definitely do the job.

I dont realy get why a wallbreaker should need base 100 speed, actually the best wallbreakers in the tier (Kyu, MGar, Crumble Aegi) are below that, but even if it was he is rather close to it, having higher speed than both KyuB and MGarchomp and though i havent calced it i dare say that he will still be able to 2hko most of the mentioned walls even with a + speed nature.

Against Latios Hydreigon has a big plus in that he isnt pursuit weak which realy hinders the lati twins atm.

Imo Hydreigons biggest flaw are all those common weaknesses it gets from its typing, Bug, Fighting, Ice etc, but when used for wallbreaking they arent that important.
 
Hydreigon's main issue is that it's literally countered by every single relevant Fairy-type in OU. Yes it can hurt them with Flash Cannon but it would rather use other moves to hurt other important Pokemon.

Other than that, though, Specs Hydreigon has a very spammable and strong Dark Pulse. And Specs Draco Meteor hurts shit hard. It can OHKO Heatran and Tyranitar with Earth Power and Focus Blast, respectively, and it has good coverage with Fire Blast. On top of all that, it has access to u-turn, making it a pretty neat momentum gainer since it forces lots of switches, so pairing it with a Pokemon such as Bisharp or other hard-hitting Steel types can help a lot in taking down fairies or the pink blobs. Specs Latios can also be a pretty good teammate as they both have similar counters, and Latios can hurt/cripple said counters hard with Specs Psyshock and Trick. The Hydra also has Levitate, giving it another immunity alongside Psychic. Another issue it suffers from though is its speed tier. While it's not the slowest Pokemon around, it's still not fast enough. In a metagame where 100 speed is considered average, 97 (or is it 98? i forgot) is below average. But that doesn't stop it from wallbreaking at all.

Roost + 3 Attacks can also wallbreak and hurt things, but Specs's power is just too much to ignore.

I would say B+ or B at worst would be suitable for the Hydra.
 
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Proposing sylveon for B+. this thing is a pretty decent special wall but what it really excels at is being the best cleric in the meta right now. Able to force switches with strong fairy moves, heal the ever present toxic or burn, pass wishes, and it even checks sub mons, conkeldurr, and swag play. More and more I'm finding it fits on so many teams.
 
I support Alakazam for B+/A-. It's one of the best revenge killers on the metagame, being able to revenge kill even faster threats thanks to Magic Guard + Focus Sash. The only reason why A- may be a little too much for him is because Talonflame is a better revenge killer most of the time, but B rank is too low IMO.
 
Max Carvalho said:
Alakazam is much more powerful than talonflame it just doesnt have priority. Man B is really low for him IMO.
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This I really have to disagree with. Talonflame usually runs a Choice Band, while Zam should always run focus sash (not to mention that most of his moves have 80 bp, while both Brave Bird and Flare Blitz have 120).

Zam's advantages are really immunity to SR, while Talonflame is 4x weak, and the ability to always take any hit (bar multi-hitting moves) before going down. That IMO is enough to make him B+ or A-.
 
Max Carvalho said:
Alakazam is much more powerful than talonflame it just doesnt have priority. Man B is really low for him IMO.
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That is completely false. Alakazam's highest attack is Psychic and it always runs Timid and not Modest, while Talonflame's attacks are at 120 bp and it can afford to run Adamant. Even without a band, Talonflame should have higher damage output than Alakazam.

ChrisTehAwesome said:
Proposing sylveon for B+. this thing is a pretty decent special wall but what it really excels at is being the best cleric in the meta right now. Able to force switches with strong fairy moves, heal the ever present toxic or burn, pass wishes, and it even checks sub mons, conkeldurr, and swag play. More and more I'm finding it fits on so many teams.
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Agree. It also has an incredibly strong Hyper Voice (175.5 bp, with STAB and Pixilate) and offensive presence that's actually pressuring, compared to other walls. Not to mention the fact that it can viably run an offensive set with Choice Specs and it can punch some holes. Although I think B+ is a bit too much for it, B is perfect imo.
 
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