CAP 18 CAP 18 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment 1

[AriadosPerson]

I guess I'll start by saying that I've lurked a fairly huge amount here, and I based the idea here around Entei (and finding a way to complement its newly gained Sacred Fire), and I thought it was cool enough to post. That said, I'm not entirely sure if Zapdos is the right second for it (maybe Galvantula? Mandibuzz? idk), or if it's now considered outclassed by Mega Charizard, so feel free to pick this apart or suggest an alternative; I just wanted to put the idea out. Now, I don't necessarily think it's the worst thing in the world if a different core ends up working better with the eventual CAP; there's quite a bit of variation in the Gen VI meta, and I personally doubt that it's realistic to expect anything created to fit one core and only that one core.

Entei - #132 in OU, #95 in Suspect, B- in Viability Rankings
Zapdos - #82 in OU, #47 in Suspect, B+ in Viability Rankings

Why these Pokemon:

What Entei does: Basically just throw Sacred Fire at things, which is kind of a lot. The raw power of Sacred Fire backed up by its burn rate is pretty scary to switch into; when played right, it's very disruptive, between the damage output putting holes in things and the burn rate threatening to neuter physical attackers. Besides that, it's got pretty decent stats all around, access to priority in Extremespeed, and pseudo-QuakEdge in Bulldoze/Stone Edge (the former of which annoyingly doesn't OHKO Heatran unless it's Banded). It's a bit of a one-trick doge, though, and isn't overly threatening to Pokemon that can take the hit and don't care about Burn. That's pink blobs, as well as bulkier Fire-types and special attackers.

What Zapdos does: Serves as a special defensive check, marked by its access to Roost, Defog, and hard-hitting Thunderbolts, while packing Heat Wave to send Steels scurrying. Zapdos stands (err, soars) in an odd halfway point between offensive mashing and defensive getting-mashed; its bolt isn't as strong as Thundurus's, but it's got more offensive presence than something like a Mandibuzz or a Celebi. Like Entei, it's got a legendary 580 BST, which lets it achieve this kind of balance without sacrificing something like Speed. However, it doesn't deal too well with non-Steel Stealth Rockers, and said Sneaky Pebbles will whittle away at its HP. Set-up sweepers can break through it, while it doesn't quite have the firepower to break through special walls.

What Entei does for Zapdos: Zapdos enjoys having physical attackers burned, being a Pokemon primarily used as a special wall; with physical mons incapacitated, it's easier for special walls to focus on special walling. Other things Zapdos dislikes include burns and Ice moves, both of which make its life difficult, and both of which Entei can take without too much worry.

What Zapdos does for Entei: Throws T-bolts at the Water-types that would otherwise tank Entei's Sacred Fires, which frees up Entei to spam its sole STAB move. Zapdos also takes paralysis and Earthquakes like a champ, which would otherwise impede Entei's offensive and not-getting-KO'd capabilities, respectively. Finally, Zapdos is a Defogger, and it can remove those pesky Sneaky Pebbles and Garden Rakes that would otherwise hurt Entei's sensitive paws.

Why do these Pokemon not form an effective core right now? What possibilities could a third Pokemon provide that improves the core significantly, which aren't currently provided by OU Pokemon?

As is, Entei and Zapdos do have some shared weaknesses that warrant the creation of a Major Third/Major Triad. Pink blobs have the defensive bulk to not care about Entei's Sacred Fire, and have Natural Cure to heal any burns, while Zapdos is even more helpless in their fat faces. Dragons are another bugbear; they too resist the STABs of both legends, and a good deal of them aren't threatened at all by the prospect of a burn; as such, they can set up easily and proceed to wreck the core. Both members of the core greatly dislike the idea of getting slapped with a Toxic, which gives them a turn counter and greatly hampers their ability to tank; Heatran is a particular example, which isn't overly scared by either Pokemon. Rotom-Wash isn't exactly an ideal opponent, either, and can proceed to dish out major damage with its Hydro Pump. The core does okay against Rock-types and can handle Stealth Rock decently with Zapdos's Defog, but some backup might be nice to have.

The two Pokemon aren't capable of taking OU by storm as is, but they're not entirely useless either. They both do a rather stand-up job of demolishing most Steel-types via their Fire-type coverage, and everything they provide to each other would also be provided to the final CAP; this means that the third Pokemon would be able to take advantage of burned targets, Extremespeed support, hazard removal support, sponges for burn and paralysis, an Earthquake sponge, and just generally tankish coremates to aid it in either cleaning up the mess of the opponent's team or tipping it into a mess where Entei or Zapdos can clean up.

tl;dr

To conclude, support Entei + Zapdos, because they're mons that work kinda well in OU so far and fulfill unique roles, but could use an 3rd mon nudge in the core direction to cover stuff they both have trouble with. This core seems to fit the other guidelines suggested in this thread (no M-Evos, some degree of synergy, goldilocks zone of viability alone and separately, switching capabilities, etc). If that doesn't sound thorough, read the actual thing.

 

[alexwolf]

I'm seeing a lot more cool stuff (that Klefki + Zygarde core looks great, and I would love to do something with Tornadus-T). This is starting to look really good!

I have an idea that I'm working on, just as a general core structure: Sweeper / Wallbreaker / Pivot. I think this would be really interesting to do because we could tailor this core specifically so the wallbreaker and pivot can each switch in on some of the sweeper's threats and gain momentum or straight up kill them. In this structure I think it would be easier to design the core so that the pokemon would not be particularly strong on their own but would thrive as a combination.
No idea what specific pokemon to use, just throwing that out there.

I agree with this. To expand a little bit on what you said, i thing that one of the two existing Pokemon we choose for our core should have the potential to sweep, either by attacking or by stalling (SubSeed Gourgeist-S for example). By choosing a Pokemon with sweeping potential for our core, the whole three Pokemon core gains a specific and strongly focused purpose, and it becomes easier to make sure that the core will actually be used and not just be scrapped for better OU mons + CAP, provided we choose a unique sweeper. Defensive or support Pokemon need to do a ton of things to be considered for use in OU, because there are just too many offensive Pokemon to cover, and even an underused defensive Pokemon in OU that does some unique things will face a ton of competition with the overall better walls or defensive Pokemon. Defensive Pokemon don't have much room for niche roles and originality, but offensive Pokemon do. If we choose to build a defensive core consisting of three defensive or tankish Pokemon, i am almost sure that the CAP will prefer to be used with better defensive Pokemon, that provide more support and wall more Pokemon.

And i don't want us to make the CAP the Pokemon with the sweeping potential in the core, for two reasons. First, it is easier to base a supporter / pivot around a sweeper than the other way around. The CAP needs to be built with the goal of supporting an existing sweeper, not the other way around, as the whole concept of supporting is based on first choosing your sweeper and then the Pokemon you want to support it. Second, as i already said, it is much easier to find underused Pokemon with sweeping potential than underused Pokemon with walling, pivoting, or supporting potential, so it's much more practical to choose an existing underused sweeper (or rather, a Pokemon that can take the role of a sweeper but is not necessarily a dedicated sweeper).

tl;dr I strongly believe that one of the two existing Pokemon we choose should have some kind of sweeping potential (either via attacking or stalling), and the other two Pokemon should aim to facilitate its sweep, but not neccesarily focus only on this role. For example, those two Pokemon could take any role they want (sweeper, wallbreaker, pivot, wall, etc), as long as they help our primary ''sweeper'' to achieve its goal.

With that said, moving on to some things said regarding my proposal:

The relationship has to be reciprocal - one Pokemon setting up Spikes and another dual screens for another to sweep does not constitute a core.

Klefki doesn't only provide Spikes and dual screens support for Zygarde. I already explained how Klefki can switch into many of the Pokemon that threaten Zygarde, such as Latios, Latias, Kyurem-B, Mega Gardevoir, Togekiss, Sylveon, and Deoxys-S, and from there start supporting the team. The same goes for Zygarde, which can take advantage of some of the most common switch ins to Klefki, such as Rotom-W, Heatran, and Defog Mega Scizor. Their synergy definitely expands more than Klefki just throwing out Spikes and dual screens.

My issue with support cores is that, usually, support comes in the form of a move, not a Pokemon. Maybe this is my personal bias against Klefki, but once Klefki fires off a Thunder Wave or sets up Spikes, it's dead weight. I also don't want to get into the idea of making SwagPlay a core. If you have to pray for Foul Play + Confusion to avoid Excadrill OHKOing you with EQ before it spins, you may want to reconsider. In general I'd like to see an explanation of what superior value Prankster adds to Klefki + Zygarde that say, Ferrothorn or Deoxys-D - which also have Thunder Wave and Spikes, and can actually tank hits - do not.

Klefki is dead weight if the opponent can make the support it provides useless. This is Klefki's problem in general, that the support it provides is either easy to remove (Spikes and dual screens), or easy to shut down (Thunder Wave), but this is one of the things that the CAP should aim to fix, and i already mentioned many ways to go about doing it. And i never talked about SwagPlay. SwagPlay is not regarded as a competitive strategy anyway, and doesn't have any place in a serious discussion imo. Which means that Klefki should obviously not attempt to beat Pokemon such as Rapid Spin Excadrill with SwagPlay, it would be the CAP's job to make the job of Rapid Spinners and Defog users harder.

As for what superior Klefki adds to the table over Ferrothorn or Deoxys-D here are some things. First, priority Thunder Wave to check sweepers. This is one of the biggest reasons to use Klefki, as Prankster Thunder Wave Thundurus has showed us just how useful it can be. Second, priority dual screens to set up at least one screen no matter how low on life Klefki is. A last minute screen can make the difference of Zygarde managing to set up or not, which in late-game, could win the game for Zygarde's team. Third, Klefki can switch into a lot of Pokemon that threaten Zygarde, unlike Deoxys-D, which is used as a suicide lead and provides zero synergy to a team. Fourth, the Fighting neutrality, only 2x Fire weakness, and Dark resistance allow Klefki to check Pokemon that Ferrothorn can't, such as Bisharp, Conkeldurr, Terrakion, and all out attacking Deoxys-S.

But even if we accept that Klefki is inferior in general to Ferrothorn (debatable) or another Pokemon with a similar role, the focus should be on Zygarde, the Pokemon that the whole core should be built to support. I don't really care about Klefki, it's just an underused Pokemon with good synergy with Zygarde, but if we manage to find a more viable partner then i am totally ok with this.


------------------------


Moving on to some of the suggestions...

About Deck Knight's Salamence + Terrakion core. The problem is that you may say that Salamence is a plenty viable and not outclassed Dragon in OU, but i don't think that this is true. Salamence struggles immensely vs the Fairy-types that were introduced and are common in OU, namely Azumarill, Sylveon, and Clefable. Salamence also faces even heavier competition as a DD sweeper from Mega Charizard X, which is unarguable the best DD user in OU. So between those two new problems, and Salamence's existing competition with other Dragon-types, such as Kyurem-B and Dragonite, which are much better choices in this metagame due to several factors, there is very little reason to use Salamence. It's usable and not completely outclassed true, but not to the point that you can make a core designed to work well with only it, and not with the better Dragon-types, such as Dragonite, Kyurem-B, and Mega Charizard X.

Birkal's suggestion is nice, but the problem is that without rain, Tornadus-T doesn't really excel in any role. It's just a fast special attacker that can revenge kill some Pokemon and has prolonged survivability. But, prolonged survivability can't get you very far when you are easy to wall, can't support the team, and don't check or wall many Pokemon. The one thing that Tornadus-T does well outside of rain is Knocking Off items, as most MEvos don't like switching into it, but this i a very minor and small role. But, as Birkal said, there are certain ways to make sure that Torn-T will be able to use Hurricane, such as Rain Dance or Drizzle partners, so there is still some potential with Tornadus-T, although i don't like how much it would limit our teammates options.

And just to brainstorm, here are some Pokemon with sweeping potential that could be nice to base our core around: Volcarona, Suicune, Gourgeist-S, and Sharpedo. All of them have a very unique niche (Volcarona as a QD sweeper, Suicune as a RestTalk CM sweeper, Gourgeist as a deadly SubSeeder, and Sharpedo as a unique Speed Boost cleaner) that could make them worth basing our core around, while all of them are already viable in OU.

 

[FMD]

I just experimented with the Zapdos-Entei core and I think this would be a wonderful core concept. It synergizes well and they cover each other well, but there is still a very real and clear flaw to them that can be exploited. I feel like it would be very possible to build a Pokemon that can form a powerful and effective core with these woefully underused Pokemon.

 

[Bughouse]

So I have mostly come to agree that basing our 2-mon core on a Mega Evolution is very limiting and unlikely to be successful. Furthermore, my particular selection of Mega Manectric + Manaphy is problematic when Thundurus is already a very common and very successful partner of Manaphy.

I'd been preparing this post for a few days (originally it had Diggersby as the physical attacker, but it's definitely inferior.) Now I see several users have brought up these Pokemon as good ideas for a core, but not yet in this combination. My second attempt at this is the following - Volcarona + Terrakion

What they have going for one another: Really baller offensive synergy, covering each others biggest defensive blockers pretty well. Some examples include Volcarona being blocked by Heatran, Goodra, Assault Vest TTar, and the pink blobs, all of which Terrakion can do well against. Similarly, Terrakion (depending on the set) particularly hates Aegislash, Trevenant, Gourgeist, Mega Venusaur, Skarm, Hippowdon, Landorus-T, and Gliscor (along with Gengar because of the immunities, though I'd never call it defensive.) Volcarona can beat many of these with ease.

However, there are definite issues. First, both can be revenged pretty easily by Priority. Talonflame and Azumarill are threats to both, while Conkeldurr, Breloom, and Scizor both threaten Terrakion too. Faster threats like Alakazam or Gengar or Greninja can be threatening too if neither of these two has managed to boost its speed (QD, RP, Scarf). They lack much defensive type synergy, which for whatever reason some people consider extremely important in an offensive core... but I won't rant about that. Furthermore, Volcarona is crippled by an x4 Stealth Rock weakness, which can make using it as part of a core seem daunting. Interestingly though, these last two factors doesn't necessarily matter in an offensive core. One easy example of how this works is Terrakion being revenged by a Scizor. This then provides the perfect opportunity for Volcarona to come in and get its guaranteed Quiver Dance as Scizor can't do much in response. In theory if that Terrakion was being revenge killed, it was being revenge killed after having knocked something out, perhaps that Heatran Volcarona needed removed. It's not momentum in the traditional sense of Volt-Turning or whatever, but Terrakion dying to a Scizor or an Aegislash often provides the perfect chance for Volcarona to set up.

So what does the pair need? It needs a pivot that can deal with Talonflame and Azumarill above all, but just in general take the hits that neither Volcarona nor Terrakion can afford to take until the right moment. It also would love a wish-passer that can heal up Volcarona from the potential SR damage. However, something like Chansey isn't really what the core needs, since it needs to preserve momentum. Something closer to wish-passing Latias would be a better mold, though obviously Latias doesn't appreciate Azumarill or even Talonflame all that much.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Okay, so after a LOT more thought than I put into my first core, here's my idea (continuing my earlier post about a sweeper / wallbreaker / pivot core).

Terrakion + Tornadus-T
(#43 and #85)

Why these Pokemon work well together:

So there's already been a bit of discussion about these two, but I think Terrakion and Tornadus-T have a lot of potential together. I started this core with the idea of using Tornadus-T (just calling it Tornadus from now on) as my pivot. From there I basically made a list of stuff it could switch into - Breloom, Conkeldurr and Mega-Venusaur were the major things iirc (plus every low powered wall) - and looked at what would like those removed. The obvious thing to attract these pokemon is Terrakion. Tornadus easily switches into and threatens a lot of the things that could potentially go for a revenge kill on Terrakion plus many of the things that wall it, although it leaves a few uncovered (Scizor, Talonflame and Azumarill in particular). It also has access to a great offensive support movepool (Heat Wave, Knock Off, Tailwind, Superpower, Focus Blast), allowing it to be customized to beat specific threats. srk1214 expressed some concern about the use of Tornadus outside of rain, which is an understandable viewpoint if you try to use it to smash stuff with Hurricane like it did in 5th gen. However, as a pivot it can function exceptionally well outside of rain.

I wasn't sure whether Terrakion should be my core's wallbreaker or sweeper until I read Alexwolf's post, which was very helpful in pointing out that the CAP should not be the sweeper. That left Terrakion as the sweeper. I don't know which of Terrakion's sweeping sets we would focus on (or if we need to focus on one), but I suspect that SubSD (with or without Salac Berry) would be best to avoid priority revenge killing. Terrakion doesn't really do a whole lot back for Tornadus other than beating Tyranitar (which Tornadus could do anyway with Focus Blast or Superpower). The idea, as Alexwolf said, is that the other two pokemon of the core will help Terrakion to sweep - it doesn't need to do much in return (although, in order to sweep, it should beat anything its supporters can't take out).


Why they don't work well enough to be widely used right now:

As great as Tornadus' synergy with Terrakion is, there are threats it can't switch in to or take out. It can't switch into Scizor, as it takes 60%+ from CB Bullet Punch, and it can't really switch into Talonflame or Azumarill either. Tornadus also fails to kill Gliscor and Landorus-T, two of the most effective Terrakion walls. Given that these are all extremely common threats, Terrakion is still going to have trouble sweeping without a way to take them out unless it is provided extra support. Aegislash is also a threat in some cases (Earthquake on Terrakion or Assault Vest on Tornadus would probably fix this). A few of these problems are due simply to the fact that Tornadus doesn't have a lot of power without the unreliable Hurricane.


What a Major Third could do to change this:

The role left over in my core is wallbreaker, as Tornadus simply isn't strong enough to kill many of the things Terrakion needs gone. As a wallbreaker, the CAP would need to be fairly powerful (less so with good coverage). It would also ideally switch into the things Tornadus can't switch into for Terrakion (Azumarill, Scizor, Talonflame) and threaten them, and kill Landorus-T and Gliscor without much trouble. To these ends, I think that a physically bulky stat spread would be ideal - notice that every one of these pokemon is physically oriented. Speed would not be particularly important, although enough to outspeed standard Landorus-T and Gliscor would be nice. Finally, a specially attacking bias would be the simplest way to take out Gliscor and Landorus-T. As far as typing goes, it should obviously not be weak to any of these pokemon, and resisting one or two of the priority users mentioned would be good. It would also be nice if it could switch into some things that threaten Tornadus in order to take some pivoting pressure off of it. If it could create switches for Terrakion (by being weak to Dark or Bug, for example), that would be even better.

 

[M-WHALE]

just popping in to say I'm not too keen on Slowbro/Amoongus due to the fact that i think heatran is a great partner for them both, beating mandibuzz, providing hazards and excellent offensive prowess, while also forming a Fire Water Grass core.

 

[ProfPuppyPunter]

I guess I could try. This might sound super dumb though. >_>
PKMN:

Rank 130

Rank 131

Why these Pokemon: By themselves, these Pokemon can work together well both offensively as special and physical wallbreakers respectively, or defensively as walls on the other side of the spectrum. Tangrowth immunity to status/powder and Scrafty's to Psychic allow them to make key gains in momentum through almost guaranteed switch-ins, only further backed by Regenerator's power to keep the duo healthy passively [though I admit only affecting one half of the duo]. The two bring moves like Dragon Tail and Sleep Powder to stall, or Bulk Up and Swords/Dragon Dance to take out teams. Both are stronger at one of the roles, [defense Tang, offense Scrafty] but can play either well, thus the core is flexible enough to to fit any offensive or defensive path we want to take with it.

Defensively with the duo by itself, it shines where Scrafty can wall a sizeable chunk of the special side of OU with ease, and almost nothing physical taking on the spaghetti-like goliath that is Tangrowth, taking on the likes of Garchomp[-Mega], Azumarril, Scizor[-Mega], Mega-Mawille, and Aegis if anybody still does that I guess. Its problems lie in anything named Gardy/Sylveon, as well as the powerful Megas Heracross and Pinsir. The birds Talonflame and Staraptor [Stone Edge on Scrafty is an option, though he's too slow to tango with either.] or Prankster mons that spread status also pose a problem depending on the ability Scrafty is running. Latias can take on Tangrowth with ease but not Scrafty, and Terrakion Scrafty but not Tangrowth. Kyu-B Can muscle through both mons no problem.


Offensively, duo is mediocre: Their offensive stats are decent at best. A lot of coverage brought to the table by Tangrowth is already/better covered and simply outclassed by Scrafty's possible movesets besides hitting specially. The army of two is also really slow, neither making it to base 60 speed. Skarmory walls both mons, having no problem phazing, setting hazards, and doing whatever the hell else it wants all over these two.


What are the possibilities: A Magic Bouncing or Spinning Major Third might be the way to go, seeming as how the "Tank Physical Hits, switch out and Tank Special" nature of the duo, is highly suspectable to hazards. Maybe a Physically Defensive Bouncing Rock-Type? An offensive standpoint could be Volt-Switching mon with Trick Room?

EDIT: Kinda sad Magnezone sorta takes this job cleanly, though Talonflame kinda still warrants this core as a Major T candidate

 

[Karpi]

just popping in to say I'm not too keen on Slowbro/Amoongus due to the fact that i think heatran is a great partner for them both, beating mandibuzz, providing hazards and excellent offensive prowess, while also forming a Fire Water Grass core.

This is one of the major problems, I think. Slowbro and Amoongus DO need something that is on some level similar to Sp Def. Heatran, and so it's somewhat likely that we would create something that sort of resembles that. But this is not the best use for Sp Def. Heatran (sitting on a team to care for Slowbro and Amoongus), and everyone knows that.

We need to make sure that the teammates are NOT REPLACEABLE. Gyarados + Goodra is the perfect example for this. Gyarados is good because of the unique simultaneous offensive and defensive threat he provides. It's already possible to build a Gyarados team, and it WILL be good. Maybe it won't be the best, though. So that's a perfect subject to try and support. I have a hard time believing that a Slowbro + Amoongus team will ever get to the same level of viability as [current best team archetype] or [Gyarados+Goodra+perfect partner team], because to make Slowbro and Amoongus into top OU choices requires a lot more work than just 1 supporting partner.

tl;dr we want a CAP that will make (for example) a Gyarados team that can compete with THE BEST, not a CAP that lets Slowbro be a niche choice.

 

[Fencerman]

One core that could be missing a part is Zapdos and Heatran. Between the two of them, they are weak (and lack a resistance) to only water and rock. The somewhat defensive outlook of the core also sets up for momentum shifts and free switch-ins. Perhaps a physical grass type attacker could eliminate the problem types and round out the core's defensive tendencies. Even a grass/dark attacker would add two more resistances to the trio: ghost and dark, as well as an immunity to psychic.

EDIT: I do realize that Malaconda is already a Grass/Dark CAP, but for this core, Grass/Dark is probably the best typing, and hopefully the CAP would end up structured much differently if this core is chosen.

 

[MudcrabDL]

I'm really liking this Gyara/Goodra core idea. Not only do these threats have the capacity to serve both a defensive and an offensive role, but the amount of passive debuffing they can do through Intimidate and Gooey can seriously turn the tides in your favor. In addition to that, they have some serious versatility, Goodra through her ridiculous movepool and Gyara through several sets (sub, taunt, dd, etc) and the capacity to go mega and Mold Breaker EQ. The major holes in this core appear to be on the physical side of the spectrum, and I can see them having trouble with say, CB terrakion's stone edge, or Garchomp, if they come in before Gyara can set up to a point he can take them. Very interesting concept, though.

 

[FMD]

One core that could be missing a part is Zapdos and Heatran. Between the two of them, they are weak (and lack a resistance) to only water and rock. The somewhat defensive outlook of the core also sets up for momentum shifts and free switch-ins. Perhaps a physical grass type attacker could eliminate the problem types and round out the core's defensive tendencies. Even a grass/dark attacker would add two more resistances to the trio: ghost and dark, as well as an immunity to psychic.

I could see the Zapdos/Heatran core working well but... Heatran is #3 in OU usage. I do have to admit, however, that these two do cover each other amazingly as far as type is concerned, but Heatran can just as easily be paired with Thundurus on this matter.
I think a better alternative to this core would be the Entei/Zapdos core proposed by AriadosPerson. It relies much more heavily on Zapdos's defensive stats while needing Entei to provide consistent Burns without a loss or momentum of a 15% miss chance. This helps ensure that the core will need (or at least heavily favor) these two Pokemon rather than one or both of them being replaced by a more popular Pokemon that does a better job than the proposed Pokemon since neither of these Pokemon can be effectively replaced with the same results.
Now regarding the typing of your proposed third, I can see that working well. It shares a common Fighting weakness with Heatran that is also resisted by Zapdos, allowing a switch in with minimal damage. It also helps mitigate Heatran's problem with Water Pokemon while also helping solve the issue that both face from top threats such as Garchomp. It would also, quite interestingly, add in the two resistances Heatran had in Gen V but lost in Gen VI. (Ghost and Dark)

 

[Qwilphish]

Another Core for everyone to chew on, and one that I find myself using often, but I know can be improved.

Lucario and

Latias


Why these Pokemon work well together:
Ever since Lucarionite has been banned, regular Lucario has been nearly untouched due to its obviously inferior strength compared to its MEvo. However, Lucario still has the same tools that it had in the past two generations which made it a deadly sweeper, namely Swords Dance + Extreme Speed.
Latias may not necessarily be the most underused Pokemon as of late, but its usage is still significantly less than that which it had during previous generations.

This core works because of its defensive synergy with each other. Latias' claim to fame this generation is its excellent defensive defog abilities. However, if the opponent has a Bisharp or another Defiant Pokemon, then Latias' defog-ing abilities are greatly diminished. This is where Lucario comes in; not only can Lucario switch into Bisharp with little worry (outside of Brick Break or Low Kick) even at +2, but it can force Bisharp out and potentially get off a Swords Dance in conjunction with a possible Justified boost. This situation can also be recreated somewhat with other Dark-types such as Tyranitar and Mandibuzz.

For Lucario, as explained earlier, Latias lures in Dark-types which Lucario loves to set-up on. Latias also checks Fire and Ground types which plague Lucario sweeps.

Problems with this core:
Aegislash is probably the biggest difficulty for this core as neither one can break through Aegislash efficiently. Lucario only has Crunch to deal with Aegislash (which can be weakened by King's Shield) and Latias only has Surf or some other weak coverage move, and Aegislash can even pursuit Latias out.
Volcarona is another issue as neither Pokemon can necessarily prevent a sweep, with Latias even helping a Volcarona sweep with Defog geting rid of Stealth Rock on the opponent's side.
This core is also threatened by the majority of Fairies as neither has viable moves which hit Fairies for more than a non-STABbed neutral hits

What a major third can do:
A major third for this core seems to be suited towards a Wallbreaker role, that is able to take on the aforementioned threats. In this core, Latias' role is a lure and Special Sponge, taking some of the most threatening attacks in the tier such as Charizard Y's Fire Blast and Thundurus' Thunderbolt. Lucario is the sweeper that can easily plow through a weakened team with its +2 (or potentiall +3) ExtremeSpeed. The main member missing is the wallbreaker that will likely have to be able to take a hit as well.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

It's important to realize that it's nearly impossible to turn a Pokemon not viable or marginally viable in the OU metagame into a solid OU threat by designing a great teammate for it. Even if we created the perfect partner for something like Mega Houndoom, there's no reason it still wouldn't be a great partner for something like offensive Heatran or Mega Charizard Y. There are a lot more Pokemon in the game than there are roles for them, and if we choose a UU or BL Pokemon that share a similar role to an OU Pokemon that's largely superior, then the OU Pokemon is going to benefit more than the UU/BL Pokemon we're designing the CAP for. Look at the OU list, there are zero Pokemon that you can say "if it wasn't for <teammate>, this Pokemon wouldn't be OU." That's not to say it's impossible to elevate a Pokemon's tiering by building it's perfect teammate, it's just very difficult and not particularly interesting. We know why some UU or BL Pokemon don't work in OU, and it's not particularly interesting to find out why when they share a similar role as an OU Pokemon. I'm not saying we should blackball UU Pokemon from this discussion, but if there's a clearly better or similar enough OU Pokemon, particularly high OU Pokemon, that's substantially equivalent or superior to the UU Pokemon in question, we're better off looking elsewhere. Pokemon like Chesnaught, a bulky Grass/Fighting with a competitively relevant signature move (not a common role in OU), are good for this concept. Pokemon like Mega Ampharos, a Pokemon that both occupies the team's only Mega slot and really only spams high-powered Special attacks (a role not uncommon in OU), are not going to jump into the OU tier because of CAP 18.

We've had some great core ideas presented so far, but I'd like to take a moment to echo what Birkal's recently said and look at this issue from a more distant perspective. Birkal mentioned Momentum as one of the focal points of designing a core, but it's important to realize that momentum can be achieved offensively and defensively. Often, momentum is associated with placing the opponent in a position where they have to sacrifice a Pokemon or switch into an unpleasant attack. Remember that cancelling the opponent's momentum can be just as advantageous, and one hallmark of defensive cores is the ability to hard-stop an opponent's offensive presence, even if it can't do so repeatedly throughout the match. A three-Pokemon defensive core is going to need to be able to handle just about every OU Pokemon in some way or another at least once during the match. When you're dedicating half of your team to defending from certain attacks, there should not be very much, if anything, that can rip through your core. To those of you suggesting defensive cores, make sure that the two Pokemon can handle a significant portion of the OU tier by themselves and that it's feasible to patch up the vast majority of their weaknesses with one Pokemon.

I'm going to point out some of the ideas that have really won me over so far.

I'm feeling a little more inspired, so I wanna talk about this playa right here: Tornadus-T
...
So what do we core it with? This is where I've been struggling. We know that Torn-T is a monster given Rain, so Politoed is the knee-jerk reaction. Its Hydro Pump is still as powerful as ever, and its bulky and good typing grant itself to an acceptable core. Weather wars aren't as dominant this generation, so hopefully it won't need to square off 1vs1 against Charizard-Y and Mega Tyranitar too often. In a similar vein, we can go for Kingdra, which can set up rain and abuse it much better than Politoed. It has a better defensive typing and can do some serious damage to the likes of Aegislash and Scizor while outpacing Greninja after one turn of set up.

Tornadus-Therian is a great supporting member of a core because of its ability to support the team with Knock Off and spam the ubiquitous Flying-type attacks that are defining Gen VI. There are few mixed-attacking utility Pokemon as good as Tornadus-Therian right now, Landorus-Incarnate is the only example I can think of that fulfills this role as well as Tornadus-Therian, but Torn-T's Regenerator and bulk set it apart from its cousin.

In fact, I think Birkal's question might have been answered well by TooMuchSugar with his Terrakion+Tornadus-Therian suggestion. Many of the Pokemon that greatly threaten this core, such as Scizor, Conkeldurr, Landorus-Therian, and Talonflame, all perform the same role. The spam moderately powerful Physical attacks and carve their niche in OU with either immense bulk or very strong priority. Essentially, Pokemon can potentially be handled by one CAP. I'd like to see some discussion about Tornadus-Therian as a member of our core.

As for Klefki, beautiful defensive typing, decent bulk, and Prankster Spikes, screens, and Thunder Wave are its selling points. It is the best at what it does, but unfortunately, what it does can be stopped quite easily, as Thunder Wave is very easy to absorb with Pokemon such as Rotom-W, Thundurus, Hippowdon, Landorus-T, and Garchomp, while Spikes and screens are relatively easy to get rid of with Defog or Rapid Spin from Excadrill.

I'm much more sold on Klefki than Zygarde in this core. Klefki's repertoire of utility moves are unmatched in the current metagame; there are definitely Pokemon that can take advantage of dual screens, Spikes, or Thunder Wave. I would like to see people discuss Klefki as one of the two Pokemon in the core. I don't believe in Zygarde as a good partner to Klefki because Zygarde cannot take advantage of Klefki's screens well because of how long Zygarde takes to set up and because lowering the opponent's Speed doesn't help much when Dragon Tail's priority is negative. Although you'll out-phaze the other phazers, I'm skeptical of Klefki's synergy with Zygarde when Klefki's only helping Zygarde deal with phazers rather than the Pokemon capable of OHKOing it.

This core works because of its defensive synergy with each other. Latias' claim to fame this generation is its excellent defensive defog abilities. However, if the opponent has a Bisharp or another Defiant Pokemon, then Latias' defog-ing abilities are greatly diminished. This is where Lucario comes in; not only can Lucario switch into Bisharp with little worry (outside of Brick Break or Low Kick) even at +2, but it can force Bisharp out and potentially get off a Swords Dance in conjunction with a possible Justified boost. This situation can also be recreated somewhat with other Dark-types such as Tyranitar and Mandibuzz.

This is my favorite offense-offense core posted so far, largely because it speaks to why Lucario is a great choice for a partner rather than more threatening sweepers such as Mega Charizard X or Mega Pinsir. Lucario's ability to switch in against Bisharp is not matched by Mega Pinsir, and Latias is already a great, unique Pokemon in this metagame.

I'll post more thoughts later today, and I intend to close this thread on Friday night. Until then, please discuss support Pokemon such as Tornadus-Therian and Klefki, as well as the offense-defense balance of the core.

 

[Fencerman]

I could see the Zapdos/Heatran core working well but... Heatran is #3 in OU usage. I do have to admit, however, that these two do cover each other amazingly as far as type is concerned, but Heatran can just as easily be paired with Thundurus on this matter.
I think a better alternative to this core would be the Entei/Zapdos core proposed by AriadosPerson. It relies much more heavily on Zapdos's defensive stats while needing Entei to provide consistent Burns without a loss or momentum of a 15% miss chance. This helps ensure that the core will need (or at least heavily favor) these two Pokemon rather than one or both of them being replaced by a more popular Pokemon that does a better job than the proposed Pokemon since neither of these Pokemon can be effectively replaced with the same results.
Now regarding the typing of your proposed third, I can see that working well. It shares a common Fighting weakness with Heatran that is also resisted by Zapdos, allowing a switch in with minimal damage. It also helps mitigate Heatran's problem with Water Pokemon while also helping solve the issue that both face from top threats such as Garchomp. It would also, quite interestingly, add in the two resistances Heatran had in Gen V but lost in Gen VI. (Ghost and Dark)

Even though he is far more used than desired for this CAP, the reason I suggest Heatran is that as soon as his steel typing is dropped from the core, we suddenly have an unresisted weakness in poison. As a matter of fact, Tentacruel (while it does fear Zapdos) could cover all of the mons in the core, as well as threatening them all with toxic. Heatran doesn't have to be the Pokemon we keep in mind, but I think it does the best work in this core.

 

[FMD]

Poison isn't super effective to Fire, Electric nor Flying.
Also, the third Pokemon could (at least for a partially or fully defensive core) have a typing to cover up the weaknesses of the other two.

 

[macle]

Entei is a terrible pokemon and if we would build the cap around it, 95% of the time a different fire type would be used instead of it.


We want lesser used mons, not complete trash

 

[FMD]

Entei is FAR from Trash. He is the only Pokemon aside from Ho-Oh to have access to Sacred Fire, by far the best Fire attack for a bulky physical attacker. No Pokemon in OU can do the same job as Entei without either losing a move slot or losing momentum. Replacing Entei in this core would change it entirely.

 

[Torty73]

I decided to sit this round out, not being a good team builder, but I think we need to make our pokemon fill up that extra third in a unique way, as this could turn into a 'generic sweeper with some unusual moves. I think something to help entei/fire types in general could be useful, as fire types are weak to rock, ground and water type attacks, which their is no shortage of right now. Also, if we focus the core on two pokemon, it could get boring, so we should try to at least deign it to do multiple cores. heatran doesn't just fit in with one core, and to be honest, a lot of other things don't either. I think a pokemon able to take help fire types would be the best idea, but that's just my opinion.

 

[loco1234]

Entei is FAR from Trash. He is the only Pokemon aside from Ho-Oh to have access to Sacred Fire, by far the best Fire attack for a bulky physical attacker. No Pokemon in OU can do the same job as Entei without either losing a move slot or losing momentum. Replacing Entei in this core would change it entirely.

Infernape is a better option than Entei for physical Fire, Arcanine can do a comparable job in OU, Darmanitan has a comparable damage output (actually considerably higher, but with recoil), Victini's got higher damage output (much higher, but V-Create has downsides. Nothing wants to switch into it though, especially as it can run Fusion Bolt as well). Talonflame's not great but priority Brave Bird is still a thing. Those are just the physical attackers. I'm not saying by any means all are OU-viable, but all of them would do at least as well as Entei, even though the latter gets Sacred Fire.

Pure Fire is not a defensive typing, despite having 6 resistances and only 3 weaknesses. Grass is a mediocre offensive type, not particularly common. Steel is horrible offensively and pretty much only sees use because of Fairy and on Ferrothorn/Scizor. Ice is useful. Bug is semi-useful. Fire is okay. Fairy is also okay. On the flipside, all three of your weaknesses are ludicrously common. About the only Fire-type that fills a bulky role in OU is Heatran, and that defensive ability comes from its Steel typing giving it an ungodly number of resistances even after losing two of them. In lower tiers, I'd use Rotom-H over Entei any day assuming it's legal. You do not want a bulky Fire attacker, generally speaking. You want your Fire type to kill before it gets killed.

Entei's nowhere near as great as you think it is. I tried it, with pretty much the exact set you're saying. I got better results from CroCune, which should not still be working on people two gens after it was conceived.

 

[Fencerman]

Poison isn't super effective to Fire, Electric nor Flying.
Also, the third Pokemon could (at least for a partially or fully defensive core) have a typing to cover up the weaknesses of the other two.

I said that a poison weakness would arise due to my suggested typing for CAP 18 (Grass/Dark), not due to an existing member of the core. Please note that I am just throwing around ideas as far as typings, not making assumptions or anything.

 

[Bughouse]

Hey guys, try to direct your comments more to what DetroitLolcat said in his previous post. He's the TL and he'll be deciding what core base we'll build from. So it'd be better to talk about the cores he mentioned being interesting or about the offense-defense balance in general.

I'll keep my thoughts on the offense-defense balance of the core short.

There is simply no defensive core that can tackle all the major offensive threats by itself. There's a reason stall teams need 6 stall-based Pokemon, rather than merely 3 and then use 3 slots to do their own thing. It's just much more feasible to build an offensive core based on breaking each other's checks and counters because you have a lot more control over what you beat and what you don't. Defensive cores need to account for many sets of each Pokemon that might threaten them, as well as being worn down by entry hazards, and often all it takes for a defensive core to fail is one bad play or bad piece of hax.

On the other side of things, we had a concept on onslaught cores that mentioned TalonRaptor, which really is a pretty effective offensive core in 2 Pokemon, and these sorts of onslaught cores exist in most any tier. We certainly don't have to go the onslaught core route, and in fact I'd rather not. But it illustrates the better freedom from the rest of the team that offensive cores have compared to defensive cores. You can do more with less. And I don't want to be stuck with a "defensive core" that needs further support from at least one other teammate, if not all 3 other teammates. For this reason, I'm definitely in favor of an offensive core.

 

[Ununhexium]

Hey guys, try to direct your comments more to what DetroitLolcat said in his previous post. He's the TL and he'll be deciding what core base we'll build from. So it'd be better to talk about the cores he mentioned being interesting or about the offense-defense balance in general.

I'll keep my thoughts on the offense-defense balance of the core short.

There is simply no defensive core that can tackle all the major offensive threats by itself. There's a reason stall teams need 6 stall-based Pokemon, rather than merely 3 and then use 3 slots to do their own thing. It's just much more feasible to build an offensive core based on breaking each other's checks and counters because you have a lot more control over what you beat and what you don't. Defensive cores need to account for many sets of each Pokemon that might threaten them, as well as being worn down by entry hazards, and often all it takes for a defensive core to fail is one bad play or bad piece of hax.

On the other side of things, we had a concept on onslaught cores that mentioned TalonRaptor, which really is a pretty effective offensive core in 2 Pokemon, and these sorts of onslaught cores exist in most any tier. We certainly don't have to go the onslaught core route, and in fact I'd rather not. But it illustrates the better the freedom from the rest of the team that offensive cores have compared to defensive cores. You can do more with less. And I don't want to be stuck with a "defensive core" that needs further support from at least one other teammate, if not all 3 other teammates. For this reason, I'm definitely in favor of an offensive core.

seconded. i am also in favor of an offensive core. a defensive core would have been way to easy to make with a slowbro/amoonguss core. seriously, just a decent fire type would have sufficed.

Offensive cores are much more exciting. It keeps the game moving and not just switching into attacks then switching out to get your regenerator recovery.

 

[Fencerman]

Works for me too. I will say that the Terrakion/Tornadus-T core is interesting to say the least. Was there any particular reason that Tornadus-T was chosen over Thundrus-T other than Tornadus' fall from ubers? I will admit that I don't have much experience with the genies.

 

[Homeslice]

As far as underused but definitely viable, I think I know the perfect fit.

Raikou: #115, ~0.701%
Mamoswine: #36, ~5.394%

Why this Pokemon: Lots of Electric types have been suggested so far. There's one thing that Raikou has that no other electric type has. He does not contain the faults of any other electric typed mentioned, however ever other electric type is just slightly better than him in some way. He's faster and bulkier than both Thundurus formes, however they both are more powerful and can go mixed. He's slower than Jolteon, however much more powerful (I know Jolteon is trash, but this is still a major point as he could be the fastest relevant threat). He's faster than Zapdos and actually has more Special bulk, however Zapdos has more physical bulk and is slightly more powerful. He doesn't force you to use up a Mega spot like Manetric does (and is vastly more useful immediately) and has more natural bulk, however Intimidate can make up for the physical bulk. His biggest fault is also his biggest strength- he's somehow better than everyone else but also somehow worse. As far as playing style, I think the biggest misconception about Raikou is that he has to use his event moves to be useful- this is not the case, and usually ends up making him worse, as you sacrifice the precious speed and bulk you want. His most useful set is a CM set with Tbolt / HP Ice / Signal Beam, with a standard 4 / 252 / 252 spread. He is a very good CM user, the only electric type able to do so. Focusing on his natural bulk that is above other electric types makes him a decent threat.

As far as Mamoswine goes, his typing pairs well with Raikou through coverage and playstyle. Both have the ability to be bulky sweepers, however Mamoswine trades off speed for power in comparison to Raikou. While Mamoswine isn't that horridly underused, I still think it's a mon with the ability to be great with some help. Most people know how he works, so I'm not going to comment on him anymore.

Possibilities: The biggest letdown between the two is probably the inability to deal with common physical attackers. Raikou needs to find time to set up, and simply switching into a scarfed Landy-T or something naturally faster that can OHKO through physical moves is an issue. Common physical attacking types that are neutral to Raikou (Rock, Fighting, Fire) are SE to Mamoswine so he can't safely switch in. The ideal Major Third should be able to counter these types of mons such as Tyranitar and Charizard X. We could also go down a route of someone who can help create possibilities for Raikou to set up through sheer physical force or support such as Knock Off, Tailwind, or Baton Pass. The third mon could easily go either offensively or defensively oriented, simply walling those who threaten both mons or by forcing them out through type resistances and sheer force.

As a closing note on Raikou, I understand not many people have fought with or against him, but his stats on paper are pretty much him in practice- usually there's someone who can do it better, and usually there's someone who could do it worse. He's a wildcard, but he has the ability to 6-0 teams if he has the right time to set up. He just needs a little help, which I think we can provide him.

 

[Psyco_Josho]

I'll admit that I haven't really been active in the simulator battles (nor have I even played the actual games in many weeks!), but I still remember a lot from lurking.

TalonRaptor being mentioned gave me an idea: are there any Pokémon A in standard play that are good by themselves at offensive roles, but don't have any other Pokémon B that have a similar C&C list, but already have at least one good partner C in another role?

So to sum it up, we have:
A - an already good offensive Pokémon with a unique or somewhat unique C&C list
B - our yet-to-be-created Major Third with a similar C&C list as A
C - a Pokémon that is already a good partner with A, and thus almost certainly will be a good partner with B

I admit that there are a good number of problems with this: mainly with the process of finding C&C not actually having been able to reliably create a predictable C&C list for CAP mons in the past, and also with making B different enough from A, and not just being a clone of B, as well as other problems that may arise that I cannot foresee from here. But I believe that the first problem can be kept in check by doing good analysis of how the C&C's for A have become C&C's as well as analyzing how those Pokémon check and counter other Pokémon besides A, and the second one can be somewhat guided by looking at other such pairs in the past and present (i.e. Rayquaza and Salamence, Talonflame and Staraptor)

I'm sorry for not mentioning any specific Pokémon for A, B and C, but like I said I haven't payed on Showdown for a good while.

Oh, and C should not be Rotom-Wash. That would be stupid. EDIT: Unless it is really the only consistent partner that A has, but then you might want to take a step back and just look at what you chose for A in the first place.