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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Limitless
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I know, but how did the bans make Suicune s-rank? I don't feel like any of the banned mons made Suicune less viable.
Agreeing on Nidoking going to S-rank. The only wallbreakers that really gave it some competition (Magnezone and Hydreigon) just got banned, so it's p. much the best wallbreaker without question now.
As for Entei, I fail to see how you can talk about it and not mention the AV set. Entei is one of only 2 Fire-types in the tier that can go defensive. The other is Arcanine... who must sacrifice a lot of firepower in order to effectively be a good defensive mon. Entei really doesn't. It has a much better STAB move to use on a defensive set in Sacred Fire. I provided some defensive calcs for it a while back, so I'm not going to bother doing that again. The LO set is rather hard to switch into while the AV set can stand up to a lot of punishment. Also, without the top Dragons in the tier (Hydreigon, Haxorus, Salamence) as well as no Crawdaunt, Entei lost a fair few offensive checks in the tier. While I don't think it can ever rise to S-rank due to the ubiquity of Slowbro and Suicune, I do think it's good enough to rise slightly to A- rank.
Also, going to re-quote a nomination of mine a couple of pages back that kinda got ignored due to the recent bans:
And to add on to this a little bit, Mega Ampharos gained quite a bit defensively with Salamence, Hydreigon, and Haxorus getting the boot recently. It can also check Thundurus-T with a SpDef set quite nicely as well:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 250-296 (65.2 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
As for Entei, I fail to see how you can talk about it and not mention the AV set. Entei is one of only 2 Fire-types in the tier that can go defensive. The other is Arcanine... who must sacrifice a lot of firepower in order to effectively be a good defensive mon. Entei really doesn't. It has a much better STAB move to use on a defensive set in Sacred Fire. I provided some defensive calcs for it a while back, so I'm not going to bother doing that again. The LO set is rather hard to switch into while the AV set can stand up to a lot of punishment. Also, without the top Dragons in the tier (Hydreigon, Haxorus, Salamence) as well as no Crawdaunt, Entei lost a fair few offensive checks in the tier. While I don't think it can ever rise to S-rank due to the ubiquity of Slowbro and Suicune, I do think it's good enough to rise slightly to A- rank.
Also, going to re-quote a nomination of mine a couple of pages back that kinda got ignored due to the recent bans:
And to add on to this a little bit, Mega Ampharos gained quite a bit defensively with Salamence, Hydreigon, and Haxorus getting the boot recently. It can also check Thundurus-T with a SpDef set quite nicely as well:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 250-296 (65.2 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Well most of them were physical attackers that could easily break through crocunes weaker defensive stat after boosts or use him as free set up. So without that it makes him much harder to deal with and a much better poke.
Just slap a storm drain Gastrodon infront of Sleep Talk Calm Mind Suicune. Hell Lapras works too.
crocune has teammates for a reason... the best time to use crocune would be when he is the last pokemon left, meaning that he can't be phazed out. the idea is that at this stage hard counters like vaporeon et al. would've long been killed off already.
Suicune is S-rank because it's virtually the best end-game sweeper in the tier now. And it isn't restricted to that role. Thanks to Cune's solid bulk, you can still use it to check dangerous Fire-types like Darmanitan and Victini (Bolt Strike sucks though) early on in the game before you attempt to sweep. And don't forget; any non-Fire type physical attacker can get burned with Scald, thus meaning it has no hope at all of breaking 252/252+ Suicune.
Being immune to Suicine's attack doesn't mean something can handle it. Suicine is the best pressure staller in the game, you just can't win unless you kill it which no Water Absorb pokemon can, cause of how damn bulky it is.
It's still the best special wall in the tier, and Florges didn't stop Haxorus anyway.
Proposing Kyurem for S rank.
Right the sets I'm seeing the most are mixed attacker with Iron Head as insurance against Florges and SubDragon Tail in conjunction with entry hazards (very easy to keep down at the moment since all the good defoggers and spinners are in OU) which craps all over everything in S-rank. Suicune wastes PP because of Pressure and gets phazed out if it tries to setup, Tornadus and Thundurus die from Ice Beam, Slowbro wastes its 4 Fire Blasts and then it becomes a sitting duck for the rest of the match, Mienshao can't take two Ice Beams and Mew isn't really doing anything other than getting phazed.
It can still run the classic SubRoost set with Earth Power instead of D.Tail, specs and scarf so it's far from predictable. Probably the best pokemon in the tier at the moment.
Right the sets I'm seeing the most are mixed attacker with Iron Head as insurance against Florges and SubDragon Tail in conjunction with entry hazards (very easy to keep down at the moment since all the good defoggers and spinners are in OU) which craps all over everything in S-rank. Suicune wastes PP because of Pressure and gets phazed out if it tries to setup, Tornadus and Thundurus die from Ice Beam, Slowbro wastes its 4 Fire Blasts and then it becomes a sitting duck for the rest of the match, Mienshao can't take two Ice Beams and Mew isn't really doing anything other than getting phazed.
It can still run the classic SubRoost set with Earth Power instead of D.Tail, specs and scarf so it's far from predictable. Probably the best pokemon in the tier at the moment.
Since everyone's talking about Nidoking, I'd like to nominate Nidoqueen for either A+ or S rank. There's not much to say that hasn't already said about Nidoking, but the thing with Queen is that it wallbreaks only a bit less than King does, while trading in speed for bulk.
Just to show some calcs (note that both are modest, but Nidoking should probably be running Timid Nature anyway because it doesn't like being outsped):
Just to show some calcs (note that both are modest, but Nidoking should probably be running Timid Nature anyway because it doesn't like being outsped):
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 213-252 (59.1 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 229-273 (63.6 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 341-404 (99.1 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 368-435 (106.9 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 229-273 (63.6 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 341-404 (99.1 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 368-435 (106.9 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Where can I find all the most recent bans? I'm interested to see where they are
Actually, except for Haxorus and Magnezone, they all couldn't do much to Suicune, so they were rather set-up bait for Suicune than the other way around. some examples:
252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 133-157 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 5.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 121-144 (29.9 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 184-217 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (if Suicune gets a CM up after the first Draco or already has one, it's a guaranteed 3HKO, and Hydreigon is forced out after that, which gives Suicune another free turn to CM.
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 187-221 (46.2 - 54.7%) This is only for the first hit, after that it does 31.4 - 37.3%
And especially with the addition of Thundurus-t (which will also make Gastrodon more common), I feel like Suicune has only gone down in viability.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-xy-uu-stage-1-reload.3502404/
Haxorus, hawlucha and crawdaunt can all break through cune with swords dance and mence could also get through it with lum+dragon dance. Without these powerful physical attackers in the tier, crocune becomes much harder to take down than before once it gets going with calm mind. It should stay at S rank.
Don't forget that Analytic Magnezone is more powerful than Thundurus-T with the same nature, and Magnezone almost always ran Modest over Timid while most of the time Thundurus-T is running Timid (except on Agility sets). So Suicune is facing something that hits WEAKER than Magnezone the vast majority of the time. Keep Suicune S rank.
Gastrodon can't do anything back to CroCune. Because of Pressure and Rest letting you conserve PP you're easily going to PP stall it. And why would you use Gastrodon anyway when you have pokemon like Celebi available who deal with Water-types much more efficiently.
Point remains, if you don't prepare for CroCune, you're gonna get swept. You can be sure of that.
Ok, Suicune should stay at S rank, if only for its CroCune set. Below are calcs for S and A rank Pokemon against a Suicune with an EV spread of 252/252+/4 assuming it uses Calm Mind as you switch to your "counter" using the strongest move they could use on their best sets:
Now, with these calcs, there's only 4 solid counters to CroCune: Reuniclus, Shaymin, CB Guts Heracross, and Thundurus-T. Everything else is either a shaky check or will outright fail against CroCune. Now, CB Heracross will often lose to Offensive CM (generally depends on who wins the Speed tie) as will Reuniclus. (unless H-Pump misses) Now, this only leaves Shaymin and Thundurus-T as reliable switch-ins to all Suicune sets as it uses Calm Mind. The offensive set can very easily predict their switch-in and blast them with Ice Beam. So, yeah, tell me how Suicune isn't S rank between its CroCune and Offensive CM sets when there's only 2 reliable switch-ins for both sets.
0 SpA Mew Psychic vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 58-69 (14.3 - 17%) -- possible 8HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery... hope you have Taunt
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 175-208 (43.3 - 51.4%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. A check, sure. But what if Scald burns you? Let's take a look:
252 Atk Life Orb burned Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 87-104 (21.5 - 25.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Burn eliminates Shao unless it's Banded.
Do I really need to do a calc on Slowbro?
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 244-291 (60.3 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Ok, this is a solid check since +1 Scald doesn't OHKO after Rocks, but the fact you live is still kinda ridiculous
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 122-146 (30.1 - 36.1%) -- 47.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Scald 2HKOes, so Torn-T loses
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 88-104 (21.7 - 25.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Have fun
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 114-135 (28.2 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Yeah...
4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 67-81 (16.5 - 20%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Set up bait much?
Lol Hippowdon. Umbreon fails too, so let's move on
252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 232-274 (57.4 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Cune OHKOes 50% of the time after SR, so this is quite literally a coin flip. Still, you're going to rely on that to beat something?
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 98-116 (24.2 - 28.7%) -- 37% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Very, very long stall match, but Cune wins cuz Pressure.
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Energy Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 190-224 (47 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Cune OHKOes after Rocks
4 Atk Chesnaught Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 182-216 (45 - 53.4%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Chesnaught MIGHT win, but burn will doom it.
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 160-190 (39.6 - 47%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. and that's assuming you don't get burned by Scald as you boost
4 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 78-93 (19.3 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.
Lol Forretress
252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 187-222 (46.2 - 54.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. solid since the burn actually helps.
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 180-212 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 78.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. yeah, 2nd CM will deny the 2HKO and then Cune Rests. GG.
Lol Metagross
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 148-177 (36.6 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.
Won't bother with Reuniclus. It will win thanks to Magic Guard and CM.
252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Leaf Storm vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 320-377 (79.2 - 93.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Hope you OHKO. Otherwise, Cune Rests after the SpA drop.
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 252-299 (62.3 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. solid check
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 127-151 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- 80.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. That's a loss
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 177-208 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. even at +1, you won't always 2HKO... hope you don't get burned.
Stopping here since the only A- rank threat that can do anything with CroCune is Toxicroak.
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 175-208 (43.3 - 51.4%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. A check, sure. But what if Scald burns you? Let's take a look:
252 Atk Life Orb burned Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 87-104 (21.5 - 25.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Burn eliminates Shao unless it's Banded.
Do I really need to do a calc on Slowbro?
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 244-291 (60.3 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Ok, this is a solid check since +1 Scald doesn't OHKO after Rocks, but the fact you live is still kinda ridiculous
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 122-146 (30.1 - 36.1%) -- 47.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Scald 2HKOes, so Torn-T loses
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 88-104 (21.7 - 25.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Have fun
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 114-135 (28.2 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Yeah...
4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 67-81 (16.5 - 20%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Set up bait much?
Lol Hippowdon. Umbreon fails too, so let's move on
252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 232-274 (57.4 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Cune OHKOes 50% of the time after SR, so this is quite literally a coin flip. Still, you're going to rely on that to beat something?
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 98-116 (24.2 - 28.7%) -- 37% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Very, very long stall match, but Cune wins cuz Pressure.
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Energy Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 190-224 (47 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Cune OHKOes after Rocks
4 Atk Chesnaught Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 182-216 (45 - 53.4%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Chesnaught MIGHT win, but burn will doom it.
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 160-190 (39.6 - 47%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. and that's assuming you don't get burned by Scald as you boost
4 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 78-93 (19.3 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.
Lol Forretress
252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 187-222 (46.2 - 54.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. solid since the burn actually helps.
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 180-212 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 78.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. yeah, 2nd CM will deny the 2HKO and then Cune Rests. GG.
Lol Metagross
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 148-177 (36.6 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.
Won't bother with Reuniclus. It will win thanks to Magic Guard and CM.
252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Leaf Storm vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 320-377 (79.2 - 93.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Hope you OHKO. Otherwise, Cune Rests after the SpA drop.
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 252-299 (62.3 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. solid check
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 127-151 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- 80.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. That's a loss
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 177-208 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. even at +1, you won't always 2HKO... hope you don't get burned.
Stopping here since the only A- rank threat that can do anything with CroCune is Toxicroak.
Now, with these calcs, there's only 4 solid counters to CroCune: Reuniclus, Shaymin, CB Guts Heracross, and Thundurus-T. Everything else is either a shaky check or will outright fail against CroCune. Now, CB Heracross will often lose to Offensive CM (generally depends on who wins the Speed tie) as will Reuniclus. (unless H-Pump misses) Now, this only leaves Shaymin and Thundurus-T as reliable switch-ins to all Suicune sets as it uses Calm Mind. The offensive set can very easily predict their switch-in and blast them with Ice Beam. So, yeah, tell me how Suicune isn't S rank between its CroCune and Offensive CM sets when there's only 2 reliable switch-ins for both sets.
That's kinda exaggerating it, there's plenty more switchins to Crocune like Stallbreaker Jellicent, Perish Song Celebi, any TrickScarfer, Specs Raikou, Chesnaught with Taunt and Leech Seed stalls you all day even with a Scald Burn (yes Taunt is great for hazard spammers and stall in general so shush). Roserade isn't going to lose any time soon either. Giga Drain still 3HKO's after one Calm Mind, one crit and Suicune dies, it also has to deal with Sleep Powder and getting lucky with Sleep Talk. Shaymin is probably your safest bet, especially specially defensive variants but you really aren't limited to that or Thundurus-T to beat Crocune.
Liarliarpantsonfire , that's fine and dandy. Let's see how these possible CroCune counters stack up against Offensive CM Suicune assuming that it uses CM on the switch, just like CroCune would, and is holding a Life Orb:
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Suicune Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chesnaught: 377-445 (99.2 - 117.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock. Good luck Taunting or Leech Seeding that.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Suicune Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Jellicent: 190-226 (47 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. With much love.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Suicune Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Celebi: 216-255 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Not stalling that out.
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Thunderbolt vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 240-284 (70.3 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. better than the other 3, but if Cune uses LO, H-Pump will have a 81.3% chance to OHKO. If Kou is using Aura Sphere though, then the forced Rash nature will help it OHKO Cune. Good check since Suicune has to hold LO and Raikou can't be using the Rash nature that is forced with Aura Sphere.
Also, on Stallbreaker Jellicent, you need some serious Speed investment to outspeed Suicune to keep it from Resting off the burn from W-o-W. Taunt isn't a terrible option on Chesnaught, but it has 4MSS in that case. Spikes and Synthesis are givens. Wood Hammer is almost a necessity. Then you have Leech Seed and Hammer Arm also competing with the possible use of Taunt... yeah, hard to use it. Fact of the matter is, it's very hard to find a lot of Pokemon that can switch into BOTH CroCune and Offensive CM sets.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Suicune Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chesnaught: 377-445 (99.2 - 117.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock. Good luck Taunting or Leech Seeding that.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Suicune Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Jellicent: 190-226 (47 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. With much love.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Suicune Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Celebi: 216-255 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Not stalling that out.
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Thunderbolt vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 240-284 (70.3 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. better than the other 3, but if Cune uses LO, H-Pump will have a 81.3% chance to OHKO. If Kou is using Aura Sphere though, then the forced Rash nature will help it OHKO Cune. Good check since Suicune has to hold LO and Raikou can't be using the Rash nature that is forced with Aura Sphere.
Also, on Stallbreaker Jellicent, you need some serious Speed investment to outspeed Suicune to keep it from Resting off the burn from W-o-W. Taunt isn't a terrible option on Chesnaught, but it has 4MSS in that case. Spikes and Synthesis are givens. Wood Hammer is almost a necessity. Then you have Leech Seed and Hammer Arm also competing with the possible use of Taunt... yeah, hard to use it. Fact of the matter is, it's very hard to find a lot of Pokemon that can switch into BOTH CroCune and Offensive CM sets.
I feel like Celebi just got QUITE a bit better and should be moved into A+ or even S. All the bans were favorable to it and it can stop Thundy-T pretty reliably as well with the SPd set. It's offensive set is also really good but the defensive set walls a good portion of the metagame and has perish song to make sure last mon Suicune doesn't sweep. The offensive set is particularly deadly right now, being able to blow past may walls but I think Bi's greatest strength is its versatility. You don't really know what set it's running until it's actually in battle. Mispredicting the set could cost you a pokemon and potentially the game (Especially if you let it setup and you don't have scarf tini/darm)
Edit: Also, Gen 3 OU throwback anyone? Celebi with Suicune/Swampert is great in this new meta (Insert Celebi/Suicune sprites in here which I don't know how to do >.> if anyone knows please pm me haha) Suicune/Swampert can take the Fire attacks that Celebi doesn't want to take while Celebi takes those grass and electric type attacks. Celebi's weakness's are suddenly way more uncommon with all those dark type bans and Hawlucha ban. It really just has to watch out for that fire weakness and I guess defensive sets for poison types (Offensive sets don't care cause psychic). Obviously, it doesn't like taking Knock off's or being hit with Ice beam but actual STAB users of its weakness's are really not all that popular besides fire which makes pairing it with Suicune/Swampert a great idea.
Edit: Also, Gen 3 OU throwback anyone? Celebi with Suicune/Swampert is great in this new meta (Insert Celebi/Suicune sprites in here which I don't know how to do >.> if anyone knows please pm me haha) Suicune/Swampert can take the Fire attacks that Celebi doesn't want to take while Celebi takes those grass and electric type attacks. Celebi's weakness's are suddenly way more uncommon with all those dark type bans and Hawlucha ban. It really just has to watch out for that fire weakness and I guess defensive sets for poison types (Offensive sets don't care cause psychic). Obviously, it doesn't like taking Knock off's or being hit with Ice beam but actual STAB users of its weakness's are really not all that popular besides fire which makes pairing it with Suicune/Swampert a great idea.
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I think A+ might be good for Celebi, but definitely not S.
The reason for this being is that Scarf U-turn users like Victini, Darmanitan (who can OHKO with Flare Blitz or V-Create anyway), and things that just outspeed it naturally that also carry U-turn like Mienshao and Torn-T are virtually everywhere in the metagame, and have so much raw physical power (except for maybe Torn-T) that it usually OHKOs most variants of Celebi.
And while it did improve by a pretty large margin due to stuff that absolutely destroyed it like Hydreigon and Mega Houndoom got the boot, making it more comfortable in the current metagame, the boosting sets get walled by two of the most common walls in the entire tier. SD Variants can't take on M-Aggron (Sucker Punch does like 20% at +2 and M-Aggron can just phaze it out anyway), while NP sets get walled by Florges and Umbreon (Celebi doesn't get Psyshock for some stupid reason, making its life much more harder than it needs to be).
I think the best set for it tbh is the specially defensive set, where it serves as a pretty good defensive mon while setting up hazards and/or paralyzing threats to the rest of the team.
Celebi is much better in a metagame where it isn't infested with Dark types that can OHKO it with ease, but it just doesn't have enough to make a huge impact. I think it should stay in A, or move up to A+.
Ok, so this may seem like a weird nomination, but I'd like to nominate Scrafty for B. While initially it may seem this as thing has become close to useless with the introduction of Fairy-type Pokemon, I promise this Pokemon definitely has some merit. This merit comes from it's Bulk Up set. With Bulk Up, Scrafty can slowly boost both it's offensive and defensive stats to high levels, and with investment in Special Defense, this thing overall becomes quite bulky. It doesn't fear status thanks to Shed Skin, and it's great late game, especially when Florges has been removed. The Dark and Knock Off buff have also helped this thing greatly, as it's a good way for bulky offense (And offensive teams in general) to deal with Dark- and Ghost-type attacks.
Of course, this Pokemon has some obvious flaws. Florges, one of the most common Pokemon in UU ATM, is a 100% counter. This means that Florges needs to be removed before Scrafty can do anything, which is quite annoying. It also starts off pretty weak without any attack investment, and is slow. However, his list of flaws are much smaller than his list of pros, and I personally feel Scrafty would be great in B, and is definitely more viable then Pokemon such as Braviary and Articuno.
Of course, this Pokemon has some obvious flaws. Florges, one of the most common Pokemon in UU ATM, is a 100% counter. This means that Florges needs to be removed before Scrafty can do anything, which is quite annoying. It also starts off pretty weak without any attack investment, and is slow. However, his list of flaws are much smaller than his list of pros, and I personally feel Scrafty would be great in B, and is definitely more viable then Pokemon such as Braviary and Articuno.
So I was about to write up yet another lengthy, somewhat ranty article about Qwilfish (everyone's favorite, I know), and how it should probably be moved up to B/B+ in light of the tier changes. But then something struck me.
The UU metagame is in a constant flux at the minute. With changes happening at a fairly rapid rate as well as the scale of the changes being enormous at this point (e.g. six pokes being moved out of the tier at once, etc), there's going to be a ton of shifting in viability. This is expected. As you can see over the last two pages, the vast majority of it focuses around A-ranked and S-ranked pokes and their shifting between it due to the moving of top-tier threats. This, as well, is expected, and just. It is the primary duty of the thread to show how top-tier threats react to the changes and how viable they are in the metagame.
However, the B and C ranked threats have not seen, and probably will not see, any change from the tier shifts. It's quite honestly unrealistic to go through every single B and C rank and adjust it to a + or a - based on the banning of Salamence or Klefki; we just don't have the resources in terms of manpower and sample size, and it's also rather useless, as the next shift of drops/bans will once again shift their respective viabilities.
As such, isn't it slightly misleading to have +/neutral/- delineations in B and C rank? It's sort of undeniable that those rankings are incredibly subjective, and most of them are relatively outdated on the micro scale. The recent changes alone were so incredibly polarizing themselves that most of the things in the lower B and C rankings would almost certainly shift up a rank or down a rank.
In a balanced metagame that has existed for a long time, in which suspect tests occur occasionally and only have one poke in them, it's perfectly acceptable to assume this kind of precision in viability. However, it's slightly misleading for people who read the original thread and assume that the standards of precision that we've set ourselves are constantly met. Rather than show an unrealistic ability to delineate lower-tier threats to this extent in such a rapidly changing metagame, it makes more sense to temporarily eliminate the + and - rankings from all but the A tier.
If the general consensus is against the idea expressed in this post, however, you can expect a lovely, long rant about why Qwilfish just got a whole lot better, coming soon to theatres near you.
The UU metagame is in a constant flux at the minute. With changes happening at a fairly rapid rate as well as the scale of the changes being enormous at this point (e.g. six pokes being moved out of the tier at once, etc), there's going to be a ton of shifting in viability. This is expected. As you can see over the last two pages, the vast majority of it focuses around A-ranked and S-ranked pokes and their shifting between it due to the moving of top-tier threats. This, as well, is expected, and just. It is the primary duty of the thread to show how top-tier threats react to the changes and how viable they are in the metagame.
However, the B and C ranked threats have not seen, and probably will not see, any change from the tier shifts. It's quite honestly unrealistic to go through every single B and C rank and adjust it to a + or a - based on the banning of Salamence or Klefki; we just don't have the resources in terms of manpower and sample size, and it's also rather useless, as the next shift of drops/bans will once again shift their respective viabilities.
As such, isn't it slightly misleading to have +/neutral/- delineations in B and C rank? It's sort of undeniable that those rankings are incredibly subjective, and most of them are relatively outdated on the micro scale. The recent changes alone were so incredibly polarizing themselves that most of the things in the lower B and C rankings would almost certainly shift up a rank or down a rank.
In a balanced metagame that has existed for a long time, in which suspect tests occur occasionally and only have one poke in them, it's perfectly acceptable to assume this kind of precision in viability. However, it's slightly misleading for people who read the original thread and assume that the standards of precision that we've set ourselves are constantly met. Rather than show an unrealistic ability to delineate lower-tier threats to this extent in such a rapidly changing metagame, it makes more sense to temporarily eliminate the + and - rankings from all but the A tier.
If the general consensus is against the idea expressed in this post, however, you can expect a lovely, long rant about why Qwilfish just got a whole lot better, coming soon to theatres near you.
This post definitely makes a lot of sense. The tier changes that are going to be happening for the next few months (Or however long this will all take, idk) really make it hard to judge the viability of the lower-ranked Pokemon. Considering a lot of those Pokemon (Esp. the ones in B and lower) are used by maybe one user who regularly participates in this thread, many of the posters here won't know how the metagame changes have affected the viability of a lot of these Pokemon, and as such these Pokemon are very hard to tier accurately.
However, there is a problem with removing the +/neutral/-. It's mainly that we wouldn't be accurately tiering based on viability, which is what this thread is meant to do. For example: Are Pokemon such as Mega Ampharos, Entei, and Raikou really as viable as Pokemon such as Articuno, Siesmitoad, and Braviary? No, of course not. As such, I think it's important to keep the +/neutral/- symbols in at least B tier in order to accurately tier all Pokemon based on viability. Sure, it won't be the most accurate system, but it will definitely be more accurate than clumping them all into one.
I actually could, however, see this working for the C ranks. Honestly, all the Pokemon listed in all three of those ranks seem to have more or less the same viability. Eliminating the use of +/neutral/- may mean we might have to shift a few Pokemon around, but otherwise, I could actually see this working out quite well. The main problem would be the giant clump at C rank, but it's really not an issue.
I support Nidoking moving up to A+/S rank since it does put a stop to M-Aggron + Florges cores. A minor nitpick here but I don't really think that M-Aggron should run 4 Spd. A 252 HP / 252+ Spd spread is what it should be using to help alleviate that subpar Special Defense. Of course, Filter works it's magic in that area as well. But nevertheless, King still 2HKOs him comfortably.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 234-277 (68 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Is it also worth mentioning that Nidoking has a pretty good Attack stat and physical movepool as well? Sucker Punch helps with the Speed issues. It also gets Head Smash iirc which it can use to nuke stuff. Megahorn is also there for coverage. I don't think King's physical movepool benefits from Sheer Force though, but still.
B+ is to high for Vivilion imo. I think somewhere between B-/C+ is where it really fits in. The only thing it has going for it is a slightly more accurate Hurricane and Sleep Powder (which by no means are bad moves) and nothing else after that. It's also 4x weak to rocks. Plus, I can't stand it sitting ahead of legitimate threats like Mega Abomasnow and Sharpedo.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 234-277 (68 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Is it also worth mentioning that Nidoking has a pretty good Attack stat and physical movepool as well? Sucker Punch helps with the Speed issues. It also gets Head Smash iirc which it can use to nuke stuff. Megahorn is also there for coverage. I don't think King's physical movepool benefits from Sheer Force though, but still.
B+ is to high for Vivilion imo. I think somewhere between B-/C+ is where it really fits in. The only thing it has going for it is a slightly more accurate Hurricane and Sleep Powder (which by no means are bad moves) and nothing else after that. It's also 4x weak to rocks. Plus, I can't stand it sitting ahead of legitimate threats like Mega Abomasnow and Sharpedo.
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