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With such high natural HP, couldnt you run 252 attack/252+ def? Or 252 def/ 252 special defense?
I've found that, often enough, when a Pokemon has a ridiculously high base HP stat, it tends to be slightly better to invest in the defenses rather than HP
Also there are a lot of other things that snorlax could do with such reliable healing.
It could run pursuit and sponge up Draco meteors from Latios.
It could even run wild charge or zen headbutt to hit things like talonflame, char y, mega venusaur, keldeo, and conkeldurr
Also, is it possible that snorlax can now take advantage of belly drum? I realize that curse is the superior set up move due to the defense boost, but with a defensive spread (252 HP/ 252 def) you could set up on a defensive mon or a status move, and proceed to smash things with facade and crunch/earthquake.
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 612-720 (116.7 - 137.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 408-482 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Between CB Superpower and SD Scizor sets, I'd rarely want to try setting up on Scizor, especially if it can just U-Turn to a more appropriate answer anyway.
Of course, like you said, teammates can take care of those mons, and Crunch is probably better in most situations, but that doesn't mean the coverage issue is ignorable. Requiring team support to function, even if generally easy, is still a negative attribute, and something to keep in mind.
I'd also add that Fire Punch takes out Skarmory after a few boosts (though you still need way too many to make it a reliable option against the bird, especially if it's carrying Whirlwind/Taunt.)
People, stop talking about how theorymons fare against other theorymons, the purpose of this thread is to talk about how theorymons fare against the existing Pokemon in OU.
I'm referring to normal Gourgeist. Crunch was used for the example because it's still stronger than Fire Punch. The mind games are strong with the Gourgeist vs. Snorlax match up, if relying on Disable, but Gourgeist still has the upper hand. Does Disable go through Protect? I've never tried before.
Also, is it possible that snorlax can now take advantage of belly drum? I realize that curse is the superior set up move due to the defense boost, but with a defensive spread (252 HP/ 252 def) you could set up on a defensive mon or a status move, and proceed to smash things with facade and crunch/earthquake.
You basically answered your own question; Curse is the superior set up move. Snorlax is way too slow to abuse Belly Drum; it will just get killed by any Fighting type which switches into Belly Drum.
You basically answered your own question; Curse is the superior set up move. Snorlax is way too slow to abuse Belly Drum; it will just get killed by any Fighting type which switches into Belly Drum.
I agree belly drum would be underatted and quite usless in this offensive meta, nevertheless that can be impossible to handle for stall team:
Those calcs illustrate how that could be powerfull:
+6 252+ Atk Snorlax Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 252-297 (75.4 - 88.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Snorlax Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.
Edit: I was very surprised when i saw Facade make higher damage than crunch even if it is resisted.
Why are people giving Snorlax HP? It's base 160, it needs no investment. However his starting Df is atrocious and if you want the time to be able to set up Curses I advise maxing that out from the beginning.
We now have 462 HP, 229 Df and 350 SpD. With the extra EVs in Df you'll gain exponential more points when you boost, which is crucial for keeping Snorlax alive. The object is to be able to net more Curses, not just one, and Protect will net you crucial free turns of healing. Snorlax is abysmally slow, he needs the breathing room. Facade obviously for ridiculous STAB, and Crunch is crucial for hitting Ghosts and is good for Steels. I believe only Klefki, Tyranitar, Terrakion, Cobalion and Bisharp resist this combo.
As for counters, those are probably some of the best right there. Mega Tyranitar can boost along side you, sand will hamper your healing a bit, and his Attack boosts will be much greater than your defense boosts. Not to mention STAB Stone Edge has a good chance to crit and bypass all boosts together.
Terrakion, if coming in on Crunch, would get an attack boost. But it also doesn't take much from a +1 Facade which is the worst it could switch into realistically.
CB Terrakion CC can not OHKO a max/max +1 Curselax however. There's a lot of variability here, but Swords Dance Terrakion is the safest bet if Snorlax tries to Curse a lot.
Actually, after thinking a bit, there is no point to use crunch, facade makes higher damage, even against steel and rock type. Then you tell me, we want to be able to hit ghost ... well the only overused and overseen ghost that come to mind is aegislash which take higher damage with EQ (without mentioning his attack won't deacrease after a king shield). Moreover EQ can hit most annoying steel/rock types (excadrill/tyranitar/heatran/terrakion/bisharp) and can surprise them on the switch. After all, the only pokemons that benefit of crunck lack are Gengar (which disapeared from the meta since its mega form was banned), air balloon chandelure, Trevenant and Gourgeist. All those mons are quite rare and should not force snorlax using crunch.
Mega Tyranitar can boost along side you, sand will hamper your healing a bit, and his Attack boosts will be much greater than your defense boosts. Not to mention STAB Stone Edge has a good chance to crit and bypass all boosts together.
Mega TTar is not a counter. If it switches into Snorlax as it Curses, Snorlax is already one step ahead. And if they both boost to +6:
+6 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 183-216 (34.9 - 41.2%) -- 64.8% chance to 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Poison Heal
+6 0 Atk Snorlax Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 229-270 (66.9 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And while TTar is boosting, its sand will go away too. Fishing for a crit with Stone Edge is a bad idea since it is still more likely to miss than it is to crit.
So, it's safe to say that every Snorlax will be running curse and facade, and likely a coverage move (earthquake most of the time). But what options are there for the 4th slot? Another coverage move like fire punch or something like protect? What about the random fling or something like that to put pressure on pokes while you curse up? Or yawn? Just looking for some other options, because every set being the same sounds boring
So, it's safe to say that every Snorlax will be running curse and facade, and likely a coverage move (earthquake most of the time). But what options are there for the 4th slot? Another coverage move like fire punch or something like protect? What about the random fling or something like that to put pressure on pokes while you curse up? Or yawn? Just looking for some other options, because every set being the same sounds boring
Actually, forget Close Combat, Terrakion knows Sacred Sword, which ignores defense boosts. So does Cobalion and Aegeslash actually. These are by far the safest bets you can manage regardless of how many Curses Snorlax can muster. Granted Sacred Sword is a worse move than Close Combat in virtually all other cases however...
YES this is an interesting one! (too bad we can't let mega cross get roost...)
My only regret with Snorlax is that Special attackers that he kicks ass on just aren't where they used to be in the meta. (this would have been amazing in 5th gen)
Yes Pokemon like Latios and Latias are still top Pokemon, but not because they're the most threatening-- only because they have Defog. Rather they're some of the least threatening of the games' top offensive Pokemon. Greninja is also kinda meh. Starmie is good in practice, but it's dead in usage...
Snorlax as a check to Keldeo. lol. Manaphy? lol
Thundurus-I is of course phenomenal, but Snorlax is a pretty terrible check for it too-- especially if it has to try switch in before it's got that poison going (switch into knock off for the fail). Granted Snorlax is cool in that it won't give a f*ck about knock off AFTER poison is up-- but Superpower or even Focus Blast will still mess it up bad.
All of this is in regards to a potential Pursuit set, which seems more and more meh when I think about it...
But Curse is going to be hard to get far, and Snorlax' power is just sooo meh without CB.
I'm SURE this thing will be useful if it existed, but it's hard to point out exactly how; it's not about to take the meta by storm.
Fling sounds like a fantastic move for him. Not only does it mean he can throw his toxic orb to hit tanky switch-ins, but it gives him immunity to switcheroo (which doesnt work if one poke isnt holding an item) and trick pokemon trying to give him a choice scarf to stop his boosting antics. You can simply throw the scarf away while they are crippled by toxic orb!
Ofc that wouldnt work if you have a aromatherapy user on your team. Also it has the additional bonus of weakening knock off.
Tbh.. this makes me ask the question- are there any other tanks that benefit from fling to give themselves immunity to trick? If blissey has the space she could run it alongside wish + protect + toxic. o___O
In competitive Pokemon, Gliscor is the only one to ever make Fling a thing-- because it also has Acrobatics to abuse. While it was a popular set early BW, it kind of fell out of practice as people wished they had more consistency with Toxic, and even after Fling, Acrobatics just wasn't strong enough in general (people preferred SD sets with Flying Gem).
Snorlax is already so tight for moveslots (we ALL know how hard it is to fill out coverage alongside Normal STAB), plus considering Curse... it's interesting, but I don't think Fling will ever be a thing for lax.
Speaking of strategies other previous Toxic Orb users have abused though, Sub + Focus Punch might actually be a good option for this Poke.
Here i go with the 1760 stats, Greened pokemon are those who can't do anything against snorlax, making them good niche to switch in and begin to set up. Blued Pokemon are those who may have difficulties to deal with snorlax but still can win in some case depending of the Ev spread chosen, coverage move given, ...This is also a category for pokemon who can't do anything but still can make their job (entry hazards, leech seed,screen, ...). Red Pokemon are those who can protit of the snorlax presence and threaten it orpokemon that have at least 1 set that counter snorlax.
That confirms few thing will really stop snorlax when it begin to set up, and a good amount of mon are countered and checked. If you have any advice to improve that list, go on.
Fling sounds like a fantastic move for him. Not only does it mean he can throw his toxic orb to hit tanky switch-ins, but it gives him immunity to switcheroo (which doesnt work if one poke isnt holding an item) and trick pokemon trying to give him a choice scarf to stop his boosting antics. You can simply throw the scarf away while they are crippled by toxic orb!
Ofc that wouldnt work if you have a aromatherapy user on your team. Also it has the additional bonus of weakening knock off.
Tbh.. this makes me ask the question- are there any other tanks that benefit from fling to give themselves immunity to trick? If blissey has the space she could run it alongside wish + protect + toxic. o___O
Actually, am 100% positive Switcheroo / Trick still works even if one of the two mons aren't holding anything; it will just be that one item being given to / stolen from its target, like Bestow / no-damage Covet. My Gothitelle lost its Specs due to Knock Off but still stole the target's item via Trick.
Thundurus-I is of course phenomenal, but Snorlax is a pretty terrible check for it too-- especially if it has to try switch in before it's got that poison going (switch into knock off for the fail). Granted Snorlax is cool in that it won't give a f*ck about knock off AFTER poison is up-- but Superpower or even Focus Blast will still mess it up bad.
I must disagree with that, yes we may be carefull about knock off for the first turn we use snorlax, but good players won't do that mistake. Once poison is up, thundurus can't do anything, superpower miss the OHKO (even for the specially defensive) and decrease thundurus stats while snorlax is able to get back 25% of his life :
252 Atk Thundurus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 340-402 (64.8 - 76.7%)
-1 252 Atk Thundurus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 226-268 (43.1 - 51.1%) ( that show it may also miss the 3HKO)
Meanwhile
0 Atk Snorlax Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 220-259 (73.3 - 86.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock0 Atk Snorlax Facade (140 BP) vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 330-388 (110 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Focus Blast is not a good option because of the accuracy and the little amount of PP:
252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 236-278 (45 - 53%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
That shows snorlax is a good check for thundurus, and may even be a counter for the specially offensive one.
Actually, am 100% positive Switcheroo / Trick still works even if one of the two mons aren't holding anything; it will just be that one item being given to / stolen from its target, like Bestow / no-damage Covet. My Gothitelle lost its Specs due to Knock Off but still stole the target's item via Trick.
Here i go with the 1760 stats, Greened pokemon are those who can't do anything against snorlax, making them good niche to switch in and begin to set up. Blued Pokemon are those who may have difficulties to deal with snorlax but still can win in some case depending of the Ev spread chosen, coverage move given, ...This is also a category for pokemon who can't do anything but still can make their job (entry hazards, leech seed,screen, ...). Red Pokemon are those who can protit of the snorlax presence and threaten it or just counter it.
That confirms a few thing will really stop snorlax when it begin to set up, and a good amount of mon are countered and checked. If you have any advice to improve that list, go on.
This looks like a very good list. I would like to make some suggestions though. You say that red Pokemon can counter Snorlax, but to be a counter, a Pokemon has to be able to switch into a +1 Snorlax and still be able to beat it. Scizor (most sets), Azumarill, and Conkeldurr (without Bulk Up) cannot counter, so they should be blue. Mega Pinsir, Gyarados (without Taunt), Infernape, and Mega Medicham also cannot counter and should be blue. Mega Heracross needs Swords Dance to be a reliable counter so you can decide whether it should be red or blue. Vaporeon can only phaze and takes heavy damage in the process so it should be blue. Keldeo and Staraptor do not counter either. Mega Aggron can only phaze with Dragon Tail and cannot recover off any damage it takes. Many of these Pokemon are capable of significantly weakening Snorlax, but most of them will be killed in the process which is why I would not classify them as countering or taking advantage of Snorlax.
It's not a good thing of sacrifying one precious coverage move in order to avoid switchero. First, i think only noivern is using switchero, and it is OHKO by facade. Then the opponent won't lost one mon only for cripple snorlax, and even it does switchero on the switch, this is too much situational.
It's not a good thing of sacrifying one precious coverage move in order to avoid switchero. First, i think only noivern is using switchero, and it is OHKO by facade. Then the opponent won't lost one mon only for cripple snorlax, and even it does switchero on the switch, this is too much situational.
I was just explaining the difference between switcheroo and trick as opposed to saying that the main aim was to counter switcheroo.
And yea I can see why the main set would use a coverage move for the 4th move. But I can still see people using things like trick rotom-w to try and cripple lax and being able to fling the scarf is probably one of his better options around it, while gengar and mismagius have no place switching in on regular snorlax due to fear of crunch, so you have the ability to play around that. Its not situational to try and counter trick users when you are immune to any other form of crippling due to being poisoned. And like it was said before it probably wouldnt be the first option but I can definitely see it being workable and successful without being outclassed by anything else, since earthquake and facade have pretty decent coverage
This looks like a very good list. I would like to make some suggestions though. You say that red Pokemon can counter Snorlax, but to be a counter, a Pokemon has to be able to switch into a +1 Snorlax and still be able to beat it. Scizor (most sets), Azumarill, and Conkeldurr (without Bulk Up) cannot counter, so they should be blue. Mega Pinsir, Gyarados (without Taunt), Infernape, and Mega Medicham also cannot counter and should be blue. Mega Heracross needs Swords Dance to be a reliable counter so you can decide whether it shoun ld be red or blue. Vaporeon caonly phaze and takes heavy damage in the process so it should be blue. Keldeo and Staraptor do not counter either. Mega Aggron can only phaze with Dragon Tail and cannot recover off any damage it takes. Many of these Pokemon are capable of significantly weakening Snorlax, but most of them will be killed in the process which is why I would not classify them as countering or taking advantage of Snorlax.
Azumarill may fore out snorlax as it can't take a CB superpower (even at +1) that means this would be a good niche for azumarill:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 452-532 (86.2 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+1 0 Atk Snorlax Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 295-348 (86.5 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (as snorlax is slower, it will switch in most of cases.)
Conkeldurr is delicate case, as the calculator i use do not take in count the heal given by drain punch, i'm too tired to make som calcs manually. If you bring me the proof it can't win a 1v1 with the AV set, we can discuss it :D
I overestimated Mega-Pinsir, i thought it may deal more damage even without a SD, but i was wrong, actually it will go back in the black group, as snorlax will not have an impact on its usage.
Same for Gyarados, i was also thinking about a defensive set with dragon tail but it's quite rare in that meta, ---> go back to black.
OMG, snorlax resist a LO closecombat infernape when it is at +1. ---> blued as it can have a CB set and make snorlax under pressure.
No way, medicham will take huge profit from snorlax presence
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 672-792 (128.2 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Snorlax Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 187-222 (71.6 - 85%)
Heracross OHKO it too and can take a +1 facade.
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 534-630 (101.9 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Vaporeon is a mistake, i remove it.
Aggron go to blue ofc.
Edit: my initial goal with the red color was to point out the threat which can have an higher usage rates thanks to snorlax presence, then i will keep infernape in red color. Same for Conkeldurr, but i'm still intersting for a good proof that it can lose a 1v1 with snorlax.
That is pretty hard to believe since Switcheroo is essentially a clone of Trick, like how FeatherDance is a Charm clone, and Iron Defense is a Barrier clone. If Trick can work on / with an item-less Pokemon, it's safe to assume Switcheroo will do the same; the only instance where either one fails is if both hold no item, or if one of them is holding a Mega stone.
I was just explaining the difference between switcheroo and trick as opposed to saying that the main aim was to counter switcheroo.
And yea I can see why the main set would use a coverage move for the 4th move. But I can still see people using things like trick rotom-w to try and cripple lax and being able to fling the scarf is probably one of his better options around it, while gengar and mismagius have no place switching in on regular snorlax due to fear of crunch, so you have the ability to play around that. Its not situational to try and counter trick users when you are immune to any other form of crippling due to being poisoned. And like it was said before it probably wouldnt be the first option but I can definitely see it being workable and successful without being outclassed by anything else, since earthquake and facade have pretty decent coverage
Actually, i think having a toxic orb is already a nice option for trick users, as even if a rotom give scarf to your snorlax, it will be poisoned and may die faster. Also it will have dificulties to pass the orb as you'll always come back with snorlax.
That is pretty hard to believe since Switcheroo is essentially a clone of Trick, like how FeatherDance is a Charm clone, and Iron Defense is a Barrier clone. If Trick can work on / with an item-less Pokemon, it's safe to assume Switcheroo will do the same; the only instance where either one fails is if both hold no item, or if one of them is holding a Mega stone.
Azumarill may fore out snorlax as it can't take a CB superpower (even at +1) that means this would be a good niche for azumarill:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 452-532 (86.2 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+1 0 Atk Snorlax Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 295-348 (86.5 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (as snorlax is slower, it will switch in most of cases.)
Conkeldurr is delicate case, as the calculator i use do not take in count the heal given by drain punch, i'm too tired to make som calcs manually. If you bring me the proof it can't win a 1v1 with the AV set, we can discuss it :D
I overestimated Mega-Pinsir, i thought it may deal more damage even without a SD, but i was wrong, actually it will go back in the black group, as snorlax will not have an impact on its usage.
Same for Gyarados, i was also thinking about a defensive set with dragon tail but it's quite rare in that meta, ---> go back to black.
OMG, snorlax resist a LO closecombat infernape when it is at +1. ---> blued as it can have a CB set and make snorlax under pressure.
No way, medicham will take huge profit from snorlax presence
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 672-792 (128.2 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Snorlax Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 187-222 (71.6 - 85%)
Heracross OHKO it too and can take a +1 facade.
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 534-630 (101.9 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Vaporeon is a mistake, i remove it.
Aggron go to blue ofc.
Edit: my initial goal with the red color was to point out the threat which can have an higher usage rates thanks to snorlax presence, then i will keep infernape in red color. Same for Conkeldurr, but i'm still intersting for a good proof that it can lose a 1v1 with snorlax.
I did my calcs with with 252 HP / 252+ Def because Snorlax deals with the physical threats a lot better with that spread.
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 300-354 (57.2 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 180-212 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Poison Heal
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 444-524 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 0 Atk Snorlax Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 280-331 (107.2 - 126.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 356-420 (67.9 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+1 0 Atk Snorlax Facade (140 BP) vs. -1 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 327-385 (89.8 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (Mega Heracross does still have over a 62.5% chance of winning this battle, but 37.5% of the time Snorlax will come out on top; if SR is up Mega Heracross will always lose)
Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross may see a rise in usage because they can severely dent Snorlax, but they probably will end up dying themselves. Snorlax can easily boost to +3 against Conkeldurr and OHKO with Facade.
