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Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Yeah, we know, we talk of that since 2 pages at least, and i believe even more.
Well for anybody familiar with balanced hackmons, poison heal regigigas is one of the biggest threats in the tier. This is a tier where you can use protean mega mewtwo y with boomburst and water spout... Or fur coat giratina to wall it. I can't see how this will be balanced. Excluding trapping, pure/huge power, and wonder guard poison heal is the best ability in the game (recovery, status immune,
Poison Heal doesn't really rectify many of Snorlax's issues, which I think will let him be far more balanced than something like Regigigas would ever be. There are a bunch of things to keep in mind;
- He's still extremely slow, and won't be outspeeding much but Ferrothorn (who'll still be problematic without Fire Punch.) Unless you Curse on a switch, you'll probably be taking a hit while doing it.
- Snorlax's typing gives it no resistances, save for the immunity to Ghost. Without Thick Fat he doesn't even have Ice and Fire resistances. This severely limits his switch-in opportunities, even with that fantastic special bulk.
- Before activating the ability, Snorlax is still susceptible to status (ie. Burn.) This makes the initial switch-in tricky against anything that'd normally carry WoW, particularly Rotom-W, who can either do that or use Volt Switch to gain momentum against a slow opponent. I don't think it's too out-there to think smart players would try to catch Snorlax on the switch with WoW when they see him in Team Preview.
- Tying into his lack of resistances, his low physical bulk is still very much an issue. STAB Fighting-type moves are particularly scary, but they aren't the only thing that can put a dent into him.
- Before a Curse boost, non-Facade moves are extremely lacking in power. This is only made worse with bulkier spreads that don't use Attack investment (which I think is a bad idea by the way.)
- Finally, Snorlax still doesn't have instant recovery like Gliscor. As long as you can put decent dents in him and not take Curse-boosted Facade too poorly, you can probably take him out.
Thing is, anything that isn't ones hitting him is going to get taken out. By this I mean of course when he has accumulated a curse or two. His natural HP and special defense star couple with the curse boosts means something really strong needs to OHKO him, or severely weaken him and sac itself for the next mon to hit it. This is a mon you want to phase more than anything.
Most of those issues are kind of moot when you consider how a Poison Heal Curselax is meant to be played. You wouldn't switch Snorlax into anything except a predictable Shadow Ball perhaps. He's best thrown out after something dies or if you slowly VoltTurn to him against, say, a Latias to prompt a switch, or many things with only special moves. This gets you your Curse on the switch while activating your orb, and at worst you can use Protect to get poisoned safely. Snorlax only needs Facade and Crunch for attacking moves. Facade is stronger than virtually all coverage moves unless they are 4x weak to it, so you only need Crunch to hit Ghosts, or EQ if you don't mind being unable to touch Gengar. Alternating between Protect and Curse you can eventually get to the level of impervious. With max/max for SpD Snorlax can not be OHKO by any special move in the game with Normal typing.
252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 408-484 (77.8 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Mewtwo X Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 492-582 (93.8 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO EDIT: Mew X can't hold choice specs.
Mega Luke Adaptability Focus Blast is the strongest one-turn special Fighting move in the game and doesn't have a chance, never mind the accuracy.
Poison Heal actually ameliorates all of Snorlax's biggest problems on top of adding some unthought of perks. He can't be worn down by status. He is given enough passive recovery to put more effort in attack and Cursing. And being constantly poisoned gives him a STAB with BP as strong as Boomburst with no drawbacks that any pokemon would be jealous to have. I think Snorlax is definitely something you'd need to concern yourself with. Very few counters were mentioned outside Cofagrigous and Amoongus, and even Cof can be played around with EQ meaning you'd need Skill Swap. I think we should focus on counters.
Skarmory doesn't take much from a +1 Facade and can Whirlwind you out, but you'd still have to face it later.
Bisharp can take a +1 Facade so with one turn to Swords Dance if you switch in on Curse he can OHKO with a +2 LO Low Kick.
Mega Medicham OHKOs with HJK at +1 and still has a good chance at +2, but Protect will kill him so he's not risk averse.
Choice Band Terrakion can OHKO at +1, and LO has a good chance too. I'd recommend Swords Dance.
Tyranitar can carry Low Kick and doesn't even need Choice Band to 2HKO +1 Snorlax.
Any others?
252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 408-484 (77.8 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Mega Luke Adaptability Focus Blast is the strongest one-turn special Fighting move in the game and doesn't have a chance, never mind the accuracy.
Poison Heal actually ameliorates all of Snorlax's biggest problems on top of adding some unthought of perks. He can't be worn down by status. He is given enough passive recovery to put more effort in attack and Cursing. And being constantly poisoned gives him a STAB with BP as strong as Boomburst with no drawbacks that any pokemon would be jealous to have. I think Snorlax is definitely something you'd need to concern yourself with. Very few counters were mentioned outside Cofagrigous and Amoongus, and even Cof can be played around with EQ meaning you'd need Skill Swap. I think we should focus on counters.
Skarmory doesn't take much from a +1 Facade and can Whirlwind you out, but you'd still have to face it later.
Bisharp can take a +1 Facade so with one turn to Swords Dance if you switch in on Curse he can OHKO with a +2 LO Low Kick.
Mega Medicham OHKOs with HJK at +1 and still has a good chance at +2, but Protect will kill him so he's not risk averse.
Choice Band Terrakion can OHKO at +1, and LO has a good chance too. I'd recommend Swords Dance.
Tyranitar can carry Low Kick and doesn't even need Choice Band to 2HKO +1 Snorlax.
Any others?
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Not sure if people would be tempted to run low kick on bisharp just for snorlax. I mean, as it is now, bisharp relies on
(substitute/swords dance)/sucker punch/iron head/knock off
With little room for variance. It would have to sacrifice either its badly needed priority, or its strongest stab, or the coverage it needs to take out fairies.
(substitute/swords dance)/sucker punch/iron head/knock off
With little room for variance. It would have to sacrifice either its badly needed priority, or its strongest stab, or the coverage it needs to take out fairies.
...Um, why Is Mega Mew X the one doing it? Wouldn't it be better to show off Mega Mew Y as he is the Sp. Attacker?
It's irrelevant because neither can hold choice specs I just realized, so actually no special move in the game can OHKO him without set-up it seems that I could find. Anyway, MewX is part Fighting so it gets STAB, making its damage far higher than MewY's with Focus Blast. But even if MewX could hold specs, it still wouldn't have been a guaranteed OHKO.
EDIT:252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax in Rain: 454-535 (86.6 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Ok, that's literally the only one, and even then only 12%? Christ.
EDIT:252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax in Rain: 454-535 (86.6 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Ok, that's literally the only one, and even then only 12%? Christ.
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Wow, how did I miss the whole ladder and the first two new theorymons? Oh well.
I really don't think Bisharp should be running Low Kick just to deal with Snorlax. Bisharp needs the four moves he normally runs too much to sacrifice one for a way to beat Snorlax. He can't even reliably check him anyway:
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Low Kick (120 BP) vs. +1 0 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 229-270 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
+1 4 Atk Snorlax Earthquake vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 236-278 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, which becomes a 62.5% chance to OHKO after LO recoil, and a guaranteed OHKO after LO recoil and SR.
Besides, there are plenty of good fighting types to check Snorlax anyway that are worth using regardless, such as Keldeo, Mega Medicham... Oh darn, I just went through all of OU and only found two reliable checks to CurseLax. (Terrakion would do it if it wasn't for the defense drop from Close Combat.)
But that doesn't change that Bisharp can't really check CurseLax, so Low Kick would be a bad option for him.
I really don't think Bisharp should be running Low Kick just to deal with Snorlax. Bisharp needs the four moves he normally runs too much to sacrifice one for a way to beat Snorlax. He can't even reliably check him anyway:
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Low Kick (120 BP) vs. +1 0 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 229-270 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
+1 4 Atk Snorlax Earthquake vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 236-278 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, which becomes a 62.5% chance to OHKO after LO recoil, and a guaranteed OHKO after LO recoil and SR.
Besides, there are plenty of good fighting types to check Snorlax anyway that are worth using regardless, such as Keldeo, Mega Medicham... Oh darn, I just went through all of OU and only found two reliable checks to CurseLax. (Terrakion would do it if it wasn't for the defense drop from Close Combat.)
But that doesn't change that Bisharp can't really check CurseLax, so Low Kick would be a bad option for him.
Actually, it may already have it in order to kill an other bisharp or Mega tyranitar without SD. But it's quite rare, however i believe if it is played, players will think twice before chosing if they use low kick or not. Also, as the meta should probably be slowed, i'm not sure we'll see a lot of bisharp as it carries Hyper Offense offense team.
Keldeo would definitely rise in usage as Medicham requires a mega stone and no one is going to use their mega slot on Medicham when keldeo, who already does so well, can be used.
In that case, something that can handle steel types (unless you run fire punch) and keldeo would make a good teammate for snorlax.
Maybe jellicent will return from the depths of....non usage. Worth a shot. It can spread burns with scald, and force out keldeo.
Quite true, just something that came to my mind as I thought you were just doing calcs so thought id chime in on it and all.
Impish Trevenant, being faster than something for once, can stall out Snorlax with Leech Seed and Curse and hide behind Substitutes and use Harvest Sitrus.
+1 0+ Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Trevenant: 176-208 (47 - 55.6%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
It would take a very stupid Jellicent set to, at best, stall Snorlax out of PP with Taunt, Recover/Pain Split and Cursed Body. So just forget him. Ghourgeist Super at least has Leech Seed, Disable, Trick-or-Treat, Phantom Force, Curse, Destiny Bond and Pain Split with 85/122/75 defenses. It's one of the better defensive Ghosts for this.
+1 0+ Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Trevenant: 176-208 (47 - 55.6%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
It would take a very stupid Jellicent set to, at best, stall Snorlax out of PP with Taunt, Recover/Pain Split and Cursed Body. So just forget him. Ghourgeist Super at least has Leech Seed, Disable, Trick-or-Treat, Phantom Force, Curse, Destiny Bond and Pain Split with 85/122/75 defenses. It's one of the better defensive Ghosts for this.
No need to be in a rush or anything guys. Even if the thread gets inactive for a day or so, just show a little patience, no big deal, it's already pretty hard to gather good ideas within 3-4 days, and i do my best to make sure we have good theorymons. With that said, let's go to our next slate:
And here is the competitive merit behind each theorymon:
Tough Claws Drapion: Gives some much need power to all of Knock Off, Pursuit, Poison Tail, and Poison Jab, allowing Drapion to actually threaten things. Drapion can use either an Assault Vest or Life Orb + SD set, both if which can act as great checks to Aegislash, Gengar, Deoxys-S, and Mega Venusaur, and either trap them with Pursuit, or set up an SD as they switch out and start dishing some pain. Toxic immunity + Taunt + Knock Off + SD also make it great vs stall teams. Finally, it makes perfect sense flavor-wise, go read its Dex entry.
Poison Heal Jellicent: Toxic immunity is a godsend for any defensive Pokemon and Jellicent is no exception. It can still absorb Scalds all day long, provided its Toxic Orb has been activated, and the extra passive recovery each turn would go a long way in boosting Jellicent's tanking abilities. Some threats that Jellicent would be able to switch into and beat with its new ability are: SubToxic Gliscor, Toxic Heatran, Toxic Chansey, and Toxic Quagsire, essentially making Jellicent the perfect stallbreaker. Also, the flavor is really strong on this one too, with jellyfishes being poisonous and all that.
Psychic / Normal Reuniclus: This addition would allow Reuncilus to counter any Aegislash except from Iron Head + SD sets. Being so slow actually helps Reuniclus in this case, allowing it to hit Aegislash in its Sword Forme and OHKO it with Shadow Ball. Countering Gengar is great too. Also, with this new typing, Reuniclus might find some use for its other great but often overlooked ability, Regenerator, to act as a bulky tank that can counter Aegislash, hit hard, and set up Trick Room for itself and its teammates to take advantage of.
- Tough Claws Drapion (alexwolf)
- Poison Heal Jellicent (Chou Toshio)
- Psychic / Normal Reuniclus (Magma)
And here is the competitive merit behind each theorymon:
Tough Claws Drapion: Gives some much need power to all of Knock Off, Pursuit, Poison Tail, and Poison Jab, allowing Drapion to actually threaten things. Drapion can use either an Assault Vest or Life Orb + SD set, both if which can act as great checks to Aegislash, Gengar, Deoxys-S, and Mega Venusaur, and either trap them with Pursuit, or set up an SD as they switch out and start dishing some pain. Toxic immunity + Taunt + Knock Off + SD also make it great vs stall teams. Finally, it makes perfect sense flavor-wise, go read its Dex entry.
Poison Heal Jellicent: Toxic immunity is a godsend for any defensive Pokemon and Jellicent is no exception. It can still absorb Scalds all day long, provided its Toxic Orb has been activated, and the extra passive recovery each turn would go a long way in boosting Jellicent's tanking abilities. Some threats that Jellicent would be able to switch into and beat with its new ability are: SubToxic Gliscor, Toxic Heatran, Toxic Chansey, and Toxic Quagsire, essentially making Jellicent the perfect stallbreaker. Also, the flavor is really strong on this one too, with jellyfishes being poisonous and all that.
Psychic / Normal Reuniclus: This addition would allow Reuncilus to counter any Aegislash except from Iron Head + SD sets. Being so slow actually helps Reuniclus in this case, allowing it to hit Aegislash in its Sword Forme and OHKO it with Shadow Ball. Countering Gengar is great too. Also, with this new typing, Reuniclus might find some use for its other great but often overlooked ability, Regenerator, to act as a bulky tank that can counter Aegislash, hit hard, and set up Trick Room for itself and its teammates to take advantage of.
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Wow these are some really good ones, like honestly all of these seem really good.
I'm really torn between Tough Claws Drapion and Normal / Psychic Reuniclus like really, really torn but a part of me really wants to make a theorymon trick room team so Psychic / Normal Reuniclus
I'm really torn between Tough Claws Drapion and Normal / Psychic Reuniclus like really, really torn but a part of me really wants to make a theorymon trick room team so Psychic / Normal Reuniclus
Tough Claws Drapion
With Drapion, the one flaw he has had is that while he can tank stuff, he really cant do much else without some kind of boost. I used him as my Sp. Def tank back in BW RU, and while he was always a great assest, he never really had the ability to do much unless it was a Super Effective attack, and even then it was slightly disappointing. With this, he gets a free LO boost, and actually can be capable of using a good ability (outside of Sniper Crit antics....)
With Drapion, the one flaw he has had is that while he can tank stuff, he really cant do much else without some kind of boost. I used him as my Sp. Def tank back in BW RU, and while he was always a great assest, he never really had the ability to do much unless it was a Super Effective attack, and even then it was slightly disappointing. With this, he gets a free LO boost, and actually can be capable of using a good ability (outside of Sniper Crit antics....)
Tough Claws Drapion
Oooh I'm really torn between Drapion and Mamoswine. Mamoswine's SpD is low enough that it can be kind of balanced, even if he learns Amnesia and Curse. But Drapion isn't OU currently and this could really help something with a much yearned for typing.
OK... Tough Claws Drapion... but I demand Fur coat Mamoswine come back at some point!
OK... Tough Claws Drapion... but I demand Fur coat Mamoswine come back at some point!
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