Azelf was officially rejected. PK Gaming, Jukain, and Dice are all part of the QC team, and they all rejected the analysis.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Azelf was officially rejected. PK Gaming, Jukain, and Dice are all part of the QC team, and they all rejected the analysis.
The thing is though that if you're using mienshao, it should be with hazards, since it's for pivoting and u-turning. Mienshao is actually a great tool against talonflame, as it lures it in, and simply u-turns to a counter on the switch in (of course this doesn't mean much if talon comes in to revenge), perhaps even causing some hazards damage if you're applying enough pressure to keep them up, meanwhile, most other fighting types give up tons of momentum to talonflame, unless they predict the switch and hit it with stone edge. Also lol infernape.
At least Infernape has an analysis.
I support Raikou for B/B- rank. I think it's been overshadowed by Thundurus but Raikou still receives way less usage than it deserves. Raikou avoids being outclassed by Thundurus by having better bulk (90/75/100 vs 79/70/80) and no stealth rock weakness which allows it to be a more reliable check to flying spam and pull off an AV or Specs set. Raikou is also a great Thundurus check because of it's typing, special bulk, and higher speed. However, some of Raikou's flaws are that it can't get past some common special walls/tanks and has trouble with ground types that don't mind HP ice (Aura Sphere is irrelevant, Rash nature sucks), so I think something like B rank sounds appropriate.
No. A Pokemon can be viable enough to get ranked here but not get an analysis, and imo, this is the case with Jellicent, which i believe should be in D rank.
Anyway, here is an update. Since the VR viability ranking thread is discussing A and top B rank Pokemon atm, which we already have dealt with, focus on B- and lower ranked Pokemon, and expect some changes to happen in those ranks in the next week, regardless of what has been posted in the VR thread. The VR thread will just follow whatever changes we implement here, and when they start discussing those Pokemon too, we might change the rankings of some Pokemon based on what they do there.
I'll start off the discussion with Wobbufet to B--Rank.
Wobbufet is a very good Pokemon who can trap and eliminate a lot of Pokemon to aid its teammates, making it a great support Pokemon! However it is stopped cold by Taunt and it can't withstand powerful attacks such as Aegislash's Shadow Ball. For these reasons I believe it should move up a tier to B- Rank, as C+ is just too low for it in my opinion!
EDIT; alexwolf what are your opinions on Slurpuff being placed at all?
Wobbufet is a very good Pokemon who can trap and eliminate a lot of Pokemon to aid its teammates, making it a great support Pokemon! However it is stopped cold by Taunt and it can't withstand powerful attacks such as Aegislash's Shadow Ball. For these reasons I believe it should move up a tier to B- Rank, as C+ is just too low for it in my opinion!
EDIT; alexwolf what are your opinions on Slurpuff being placed at all?
Chandelure for B- Rank:
Chandelure is, as a fire special sweeper, outclassed by Yzard. However, Chandelure has a few very good niches.
Flash fire and infiltrator are both very good abilities, with the former allowing it to switch in on Yzard, and fire back with sun and flash fire boosted fire blasts making it a good counter. The latter allows it to hit sub mons hard, like kyurem-b.
It is limited to a scarf however if it wants to compete. Still, it has a good movepool that includes shadow ball, psychic, and energy ball, making it versatile.
Crawdaunt for B- Rank:
Crawdaunt's adaptability knock is something to be feared. Held back by its extremely low speed and frailty, crawdaunt attempts to make a name for itself by boosting with swords dance and smacking the meta hard with aqua jet, knock off, and crab hammer. It is a great rain sweeper, but again, outclassed by more reliable water and rain sweepers.
Darmanitan for B- Rank:
Powerful physical fire type? Char X comes to mind immediately, followed even by choice band entei who isn't as powerful, but has sacred fire, good bulk, and extreme speed. So what darmanitan offer? Immediate brutal powerful. Sheer force flare blitz is no joke, and with base 110 HP darmanitan doesn't fear recoil as much as other Pokemon. U-turn gives some prediction breathing room and rockslide and superpower are great coverage moves. Fast hyper offensive teams might even prefer it over other physical fire types due to its ability to immediately and brutally damage the majority of the metagame.
Sharpedo for B- Rank:
Speed boost is a great ability, and physical water types are not exactly common. While its sets are rather predictable, it doesn't matter if it still gets the job done.
Just found out that Adamant life orb aqua jet fails to OHKO even 4 HP talonflame. That's so damn disappointing.
Chandelure is, as a fire special sweeper, outclassed by Yzard. However, Chandelure has a few very good niches.
Flash fire and infiltrator are both very good abilities, with the former allowing it to switch in on Yzard, and fire back with sun and flash fire boosted fire blasts making it a good counter. The latter allows it to hit sub mons hard, like kyurem-b.
It is limited to a scarf however if it wants to compete. Still, it has a good movepool that includes shadow ball, psychic, and energy ball, making it versatile.
Crawdaunt for B- Rank:
Crawdaunt's adaptability knock is something to be feared. Held back by its extremely low speed and frailty, crawdaunt attempts to make a name for itself by boosting with swords dance and smacking the meta hard with aqua jet, knock off, and crab hammer. It is a great rain sweeper, but again, outclassed by more reliable water and rain sweepers.
Darmanitan for B- Rank:
Powerful physical fire type? Char X comes to mind immediately, followed even by choice band entei who isn't as powerful, but has sacred fire, good bulk, and extreme speed. So what darmanitan offer? Immediate brutal powerful. Sheer force flare blitz is no joke, and with base 110 HP darmanitan doesn't fear recoil as much as other Pokemon. U-turn gives some prediction breathing room and rockslide and superpower are great coverage moves. Fast hyper offensive teams might even prefer it over other physical fire types due to its ability to immediately and brutally damage the majority of the metagame.
Speed boost is a great ability, and physical water types are not exactly common. While its sets are rather predictable, it doesn't matter if it still gets the job done.
Just found out that Adamant life orb aqua jet fails to OHKO even 4 HP talonflame. That's so damn disappointing.
I might agree with chandelure just because of how good ghost typing is and it's great at trick scarf, or can set up on multiple bulky mons like heatran with a sub CM set, but Crawdaunt is really, really, really slow, and even with an SD, it just can't kill all the things it needs to. If it got Sucker punch, it might even be an A, but aqua jet can't sweep teams, at least not at +2.
Also Darmanitan is too frail in this metagame, and the metagame is too well prepared for fire attacks thanks to the prevalence of talon and the zards for darmanitan to do a lot of damage to most teams before it goes down.
TL;DR
Chandelure, B-/C+
Crawdaunt, C-/D
Darmanitan, D
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 120-142 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- 80.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 234-278 (68.6 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's far more powerful than Choice Band Azumarill who makes it work, and yes, it is weaker than BD Aqua Jet, so there's that.
also, Knock Off can do 666 damage...
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 178-210 (57.6 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 165-195 (55.3 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
wow look at how well they switch in to darmanitan.
just slap a scarf on and destroy nearly everything
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 93-109 (30.5 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
^That's an actually relevant calc. No one uses Charizard or Talonflame as tanks. Darmanitan gets Rock Slide anyway.
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 345-406 (98.2 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
^This is also relevant.
Whimsicott definitely deserves higher than D rank. Its SubSeed set may be worthy of D, but Whimsicott is actually quite good on Offense and Hyper Offense, acting as pivot and emergency handle at the same time using the following set:
Whimsicott @ Lagging Tail
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- U-turn
- Memento
- Switcheroo
The new Fariy typing gives Whimsicott plenty of switch in chances (Latios, Latias, Breloom, CharX, Clefable, Conkeldurr, Dragonite, (Mega-)Gyarados, Garchomp, Rotom-W and (Mega-)Tyranitar, amongst others), especially with its invested defense, and regains momentum whenever it was lost. A slow U-Turn is one of the best ways to get momentum when Whimsicott is still healthy, and Memento is even better, used when Whimsicott is low on health and your win condition is ready to sweep. Encore checks so many setup sweepers, it's not even funny. Although predictable, that +1 CharX or +1 Mega Gyarados will not have a chance to sweep. When played well, Whimsicott can cripple at least 2 pokemon throughout a match, through Switcheroo and Memento.
I'm not saying Whimsicott is A rank material, it just deserves higher than D rank (which I assume was based on the SubSeed set). It fulfilles several niches (momentum-grabber + emergency check), was approved for an on-site article with this set at C&C IIRC, and isn't outclassed by anything in what it does. I'd say C+, if not higher.
Whimsicott @ Lagging Tail
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- U-turn
- Memento
- Switcheroo
The new Fariy typing gives Whimsicott plenty of switch in chances (Latios, Latias, Breloom, CharX, Clefable, Conkeldurr, Dragonite, (Mega-)Gyarados, Garchomp, Rotom-W and (Mega-)Tyranitar, amongst others), especially with its invested defense, and regains momentum whenever it was lost. A slow U-Turn is one of the best ways to get momentum when Whimsicott is still healthy, and Memento is even better, used when Whimsicott is low on health and your win condition is ready to sweep. Encore checks so many setup sweepers, it's not even funny. Although predictable, that +1 CharX or +1 Mega Gyarados will not have a chance to sweep. When played well, Whimsicott can cripple at least 2 pokemon throughout a match, through Switcheroo and Memento.
I'm not saying Whimsicott is A rank material, it just deserves higher than D rank (which I assume was based on the SubSeed set). It fulfilles several niches (momentum-grabber + emergency check), was approved for an on-site article with this set at C&C IIRC, and isn't outclassed by anything in what it does. I'd say C+, if not higher.
Now that I think about it, the arguments against my proposed rankings, I think, are right.
I also think that if a Pokemon is one dimensional or really honestly outclassed, then it should be C rank. B rank should be for things that work well provided support, and minimal support at that, while A rank is for more self sufficient mons.
I also think that if a Pokemon is one dimensional or really honestly outclassed, then it should be C rank. B rank should be for things that work well provided support, and minimal support at that, while A rank is for more self sufficient mons.
That is not at all what I meant. What I said is that thanks to common fire type threats like the charizards and Talonflame, the metagame is well prepared to deal with fire types. Azumarill, Lati@s, Rotom-W, Heatran, Tyranitar, Garchomp, Quagsire, Landorus-T, Hippowdon, Gliscor, and many more pokemon are more than capable of taking a flare blitz and OHKO'ing darmanitan right back. Sure some of these checks are hit hard by the right move, but thats the thing, darmanitan needs a scarf to function at all in OU, and even then, it's not the monster that its stats would make you think it is. And why the hell would anyone switch a talonflame or charizard into a darmanitan when rocks are up? Those calcs mean absolutely nothing when without rocks, Talon revenges or forces Darm out, and Charizard can set up with roost and DD if it's charizard X, which is the only Charizard that has any business switching into a choice locked darm.
The difference is in their bulk and typing. Crawdaunt is frail, and dark typing is no where near as good as fairy defensively, so if crawdaunt takes a strong STAB hit, it's likely going down, as opposed to Azumarill, who can act as a phenomenal tank, and also has the bulk to allow it to set up and sweep, with a +6 boost instead of +2. It's actually a lot safer to use a Belly drum with azumarill's great bulk than it is to use SD with Crawdaunt's awful bulk. Also, it's not really fair to compare one pokemon at +2 and another with only a choice band boost, as one needs to set up, and the other can come out and hit hard immediately, so they serve completely different purposes. Not to mention azumarill's unpredictability, as you don't know if you're facing a banded set, a belly drum set, or an assault vest set, and meanwhile, crawdaunt can maybe run a band set, because it can not set up in OU.
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You want a fair calc? Ok.
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 447-527 (116.4 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 415-489 (108 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Just an arbitrary calc to show the difference in power. Which, when you see it's +6 vs +2 and the difference isn't that much, means a lot. Azumarill loses a significant amount of bulk when using Belly Drum as well. And it's not impossible to set up with Crawdaunt either. STAB Adaptability Life Orb boosted Aqua Jet is scary to anything frail and fast, and Knock Off and Crabhammer are scary to things that are slower. Crawdaunt can use these switches it forces to set up. Granted, it's harder than setting up with Azumarill but it's not like it "can not set up in OU" like you say.
Actually, Darmanitan tends to be fast enough without speed investment if you slap a sScarf on him. So you can invest that into bulk instead.
]252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 345-406 (83.3 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And even then, WHY Wuld you leave Darmanitan in on TFlame? Unless they switch in TFlame, it's not worth sacking Darmy for it. Well it depends on how badly TFlame hits your team. Even then thanks to his bulk, he can take out a good chunk of tflames HP.
I feel absolutely terrible for releasing the crawdaunt vs azumarill chaos...
In any case I'd like to nominate entei for B- rank. He has one move set, and the only variance in his play is which item and EV spread you choose.
However, sacred fire burns can't be ignored and it does have extreme speed which is always hitting off an adamant nature. It has a great HP stat so assault vest is a great fit for it (lol).
It can spread burns on predicted switcha and pick off weakened mons making it a great early game and late game sweeper.
In any case I'd like to nominate entei for B- rank. He has one move set, and the only variance in his play is which item and EV spread you choose.
However, sacred fire burns can't be ignored and it does have extreme speed which is always hitting off an adamant nature. It has a great HP stat so assault vest is a great fit for it (lol).
It can spread burns on predicted switcha and pick off weakened mons making it a great early game and late game sweeper.
* No, feel good you brought it up. It shows how underrated and goood Craw is.
* Do you mean B rank or B- Rank? I can't tell, the hyphen screws it up. But, if you meant B-, it's already there. But I would agree w/ moving it up; Assault Vest and Choice Band are both very good.
Crawdaunt and Azumarill only share the Water-typing, and nothing else. They can barely be compared except for their choice band sets.. which Crawdaunt does better, imo.
Crawdaunt is mainly a wallbreaker, it has a ridiculously strong Knock Off that no wall other than megasaur can switch into, and its aqua jet is quite stronger than Azumarill's thanks to Adaptability:
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 78-94 (23.3 - 28.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 69-82 (20.6 - 24.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 196-232 (58.6 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
However, I do agree that Crawdaunt has pretty bad bulk and speed, but that doesn't stop it from wallbreaking, as with 252 speed it could pretty much outspeed all uninvested relevant OU walls and 2HKO them with the relevant moves.
It can also set-up even with it's bad bulk, and at +2 it's a fearsome sweeper with an incredibly strong aqua jet.
Therefore, keeping in mind Crawdaunt's faults, I'd say it could easily support it's weight for C+ or B-.
Crawdaunt is mainly a wallbreaker, it has a ridiculously strong Knock Off that no wall other than megasaur can switch into, and its aqua jet is quite stronger than Azumarill's thanks to Adaptability:
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 78-94 (23.3 - 28.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 69-82 (20.6 - 24.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 196-232 (58.6 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
However, I do agree that Crawdaunt has pretty bad bulk and speed, but that doesn't stop it from wallbreaking, as with 252 speed it could pretty much outspeed all uninvested relevant OU walls and 2HKO them with the relevant moves.
It can also set-up even with it's bad bulk, and at +2 it's a fearsome sweeper with an incredibly strong aqua jet.
Therefore, keeping in mind Crawdaunt's faults, I'd say it could easily support it's weight for C+ or B-.
lol no.
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Nominating Umbreon for C.
I've seem it on stall teams a few times and it was very hard to take down. It has its fair list of checks, but given the proper stall synergy, it can be pretty effective as it heals itself with wish + protect and tears physical attackers down with Foul Play. Not the best stall pokemon, but a very viable option for a wish passer who can also take hits well.
I've seem it on stall teams a few times and it was very hard to take down. It has its fair list of checks, but given the proper stall synergy, it can be pretty effective as it heals itself with wish + protect and tears physical attackers down with Foul Play. Not the best stall pokemon, but a very viable option for a wish passer who can also take hits well.
Are you serious or trolling? With 4 you reach only 105 Speed and with 4+ you reach 120 Speed, but you want to outspeed everything, making 252+ the better option.
You explicitly said in the last version of this thread that no analysis for a Pokemon meant it wasn't viable. And you just changed your mind. Could you PLEASE be consistent?
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Don't like this post, just ignore it -_-
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Crawdaunt also gets Dragon Dance, which is another way in which it's different than Azumaill. IIRC it has the equivalent of 106 base speed after a dragon dance, so after a turn of set up it's actually pretty fast.
Azumarill and Crawdaunt just aren't that comparable. Fairy vs. Dark, Belly Drum vs. Swords Dance/Dragon Dance, Bulk vs. No Bulk, etc.
Azumarill and Crawdaunt just aren't that comparable. Fairy vs. Dark, Belly Drum vs. Swords Dance/Dragon Dance, Bulk vs. No Bulk, etc.
My issue with Umbreon vs Aegi is two-fold: First:
0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 170-202 (43.1 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Umbreon simply can't switch into sacred sword.
Secondly, that isn't even the standard set! Toxic time, and synchronize isn't doing any favors. Sure you have 8 heal bells, but now you're wasting them at a completely unreasonable pace as Aegi sits behind a sub and gets a few turns on you by KS on foul plays. You're forced to wish/Heal bell, lose precious cleric PP and you're just dying.
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 168-199 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Umbreon can't switch in here... Esp at +2 you're running an OHKO risk over rocks, and definitely losing.
4 Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 83-98 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- 16.3% chance to 3HKO
See, these two pokemon show up so much on HP, you just HAVE to be ready for it. Not to mention using Umbreon basically means you can't use Mandibuzz, another excellent stall pokemon.
0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 170-202 (43.1 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Umbreon simply can't switch into sacred sword.
Secondly, that isn't even the standard set! Toxic time, and synchronize isn't doing any favors. Sure you have 8 heal bells, but now you're wasting them at a completely unreasonable pace as Aegi sits behind a sub and gets a few turns on you by KS on foul plays. You're forced to wish/Heal bell, lose precious cleric PP and you're just dying.
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 168-199 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Umbreon can't switch in here... Esp at +2 you're running an OHKO risk over rocks, and definitely losing.
4 Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 83-98 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- 16.3% chance to 3HKO
See, these two pokemon show up so much on HP, you just HAVE to be ready for it. Not to mention using Umbreon basically means you can't use Mandibuzz, another excellent stall pokemon.
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