Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Salt]

The problem with Crawdaunt is that part A doesn't happen very often because of its terrible bulk and speed. No one is questioning the power of Crawdaunt, but that power is useless when it is usually being killed first. Most of the threats in the S and A ranks have the speed and power to take Crawdaunt out before it can do anything other than Aqua Jet. Its niche over Azumarill is very narrow which is why I think it should remain C+.

The mistake that people like you make is comparing Crawdaunt to Azumarill. The similarities stop at "physical Water-type attacker with Aqua Jet". Azumarill is primarily a late-game sweeper with Belly Drum, because it isn't going to set up successfully midgame when its checks and counters are still alive, and it isn't going to set up more than once. Crawdaunt is used for midgame wallbreaking and revenge killing. Like everyone else said, it comes in to pick something off with Aqua Jet, or threatens something out with Crabhammer/Knock Off and wears down its teammate's checks and counters.

I'm honestly not seeing what makes Crawdaunt worth using. It's strong, sure, but 65/85/55 defenses do it no favors (even with max HP it crumbles to remotely strong hits, some even resisted). Its low Speed and bulk force it into Aqua Jet frequently, and Aqua Jet is terribly weak. It has a nice but not great defensive typing, but its awful Speed leaves it vulnerable to things like Aegislash and Heatran, things you would expect a Water/Dark to beat... And honestly, what does it even threaten? Hippowdon? Tyranitar does upwards of 65% with a single Stone Edge and that's about the only thing Crawdaunt can creep due to its lack of bulk.

It's basically Rampardos with a different type and priority. Considering how often Rampardos isn't considered on a serious team, I doubt Crawdaunt would be either...

I have a few problems with this. First off, max HP Crawdaunt is dumb, so it's not worth mentioning. Aqua Jet is not "terribly weak" compared to other priority. STAB Adaptability Aqua Jet hurts a lot of things. See posts above mine for lists. Crawdaunt's low speed isn't a problem when it's doing its job as a wallbreaker. Crawdaunt's targets generally don't invest in speed, and 252 Adamant Crawdaunt outspeeds 0 Spe Rotom-W and below, which is a hefty chunk of the viable defensive Pokemon. Your last point bothers me the most. There's good reasons why Crawdaunt was RU last generation and is BL now, namely the awesome utility of Knock Off (by the way, Craw's Knock Off is the strongest in the game) and access to strong STAB priority, and your wording makes it clear that you're absolutely heinously underestimating the utility and power that STAB priority provides. Comparing Crawdaunt to Rampardos? That's just ridiculous, to put it bluntly.

EDIT: Also, just for those people who capitalize on Crawdaunt's low bulk, it's actually comprable to Deoxys-S.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 106-126 (43.9 - 52.2%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crawdaunt: 111-132 (41.4 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[Arcticblast]

I'm comparing Crawdaunt to Rampardos not because they're equally viable (obviously Crawdaunt >>>> Ramp lol) but because they're both glass cannons. Sure they do a fuck ton of damage, but if they take one hit they're basically out for the game. It's the ridiculous frailty that in my opinion keeps Crawdaunt from being any higher than it is now.

 

[asterat]

There is two things in A- and up that really bother me.

The first of these is gyarados, specifically how far away it's mega its mega form is from its base form. I honestly think the base form is better and I'll explain why. Flying/water is a really great typing both offensively and defensively. It has amazing coverage and lots of nice resists. The only really prominent weakness normal gyarados suffers from is the massive electric weakness, rock is somewhat unimportant because the only common rock type is tyranitar, and it scares out almost everything with rock moves anyways. With this typing and intimidate gyarados can actually switch in to lots of fire and ground moves (charziard-y, landorus-i) and proceed to set up. The main issue it has is rotom-wash after a dragon dance, but is susceptible to being cut down by other bulky waters or grasses. Lets say its best counters are rotom-w, ferrothorn, and latias (those with tbolt.) Mega gyarados has one really nice perk: it can stomp rotom-w with mold breaker earthquake. It also has a much meatier BST, but that is actually not as amazing as it seems. One might think being a dark type is a great thing, but remember that all gyarados can do is bite. It doesn't get knock off, it doesn't even get crunch. In comparison bounce is also mediocre as an attack because of low accuracy and charge turn but is still pulls 85 base power- this is not as hopelessly weak. And the dark type attack doesn't do that much for him anyways except nail the latis quickly (even a neutral earthquake does more. ) On top of not being able to use the dark type offensively it sucks defensively as well because gyarados becomes weak to fighting, bug, fairy, and grass. It does lose its rock weakness and reduces its electric weakness but those are less pertinent. These new weaknesses open a myriad of problems: now gyarados is no longer equipped to handle mega venusaur, manaphy, charizard-y, scizor, or landorus-i. It also becomes susceptible to stuff like conkeldurr mach punch and assorted moonblast/dazzling gleam. The stat increase helps with this a lot, but not the point that it deserves to be a+ rank. The stat increase is also sort of cut by gyarados being able to hold an item- leftovers makes it defensively capable (especially when it forces stuff out) or life orb makes it more powerful (albeit at a cost.) I can't disagree with the fact mega 'dos is a better dragon dance sweeper, but getting there is almost half the battle and it has a much harder time setting up or coming in in general. Of course base form can be maintained until ready to sweep, but without leftovers makes it get worn down fast. Not to mention it takes up a mega slot that could be used for charizard, pinsir, mawile, or venusuar.

Move Mega-Gyarados A+ -----> A (moving normal gyarados up is less of a priority imo)

The other one is a rant on megatar which is coming.

 

[jacyk]

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

this perfectly describes crawdaunt. there are plenty of wallbreakers this gen; kyurem black, mega garchomp, mega heracross, mega medicham, and keldeo, just to name a few. crawdaunt certainly has the power to wallbreak but it relies on its neutral coverage, and praying that there is nothing to prey upon his terrible defenses and speed. the other pokemon i just mentioned have the ability to kill more than just walls, owing to either bulk or speed. that alone lets them outclass crawdaunt. he has a niche, but nothing another pokemon couldn't do just as well in addition to being able to do more.

There's good reasons why Crawdaunt was RU last generation and is BL now

and there are good reasons he is BL instead of being OU. he is outclassed.

(by the way, Craw's Knock Off is the strongest in the game)

this proves nothing. until the introduction of kyurem black, zweilous had the strongest outrage in the game.

honestly, this crawdaunt conversation has gone on entirely too long and it's clear that it is just a competition of who is the most stubborn at this point.

 

[Baharoth]

There is two things in A- and up that really bother me.

The first of these is gyarados, specifically how far away it's mega its mega form is from its base form. I honestly think the base form is better and I'll explain why. Flying/water is a really great typing both offensively and defensively. It has amazing coverage and lots of nice resists. The only really prominent weakness normal gyarados suffers from is the massive electric weakness, rock is somewhat unimportant because the only common rock type is tyranitar, and it scares out almost everything with rock moves anyways. With this typing and intimidate gyarados can actually switch in to lots of fire and ground moves (charziard-y, landorus-i) and proceed to set up. The main issue it has is rotom-wash after a dragon dance, but is susceptible to being cut down by other bulky waters or grasses. Lets say its best counters are rotom-w, ferrothorn, and latias (those with tbolt.) Mega gyarados has one really nice perk: it can stomp rotom-w with mold breaker earthquake. It also has a much meatier BST, but that is actually not as amazing as it seems. One might think being a dark type is a great thing, but remember that all gyarados can do is bite. It doesn't get knock off, it doesn't even get crunch. In comparison bounce is also mediocre as an attack because of low accuracy and charge turn but is still pulls 85 base power- this is not as hopelessly weak. And the dark type attack doesn't do that much for him anyways except nail the latis quickly (even a neutral earthquake does more. ) On top of not being able to use the dark type offensively it sucks defensively as well because gyarados becomes weak to fighting, bug, fairy, and grass. It does lose its rock weakness and reduces its electric weakness but those are less pertinent. These new weaknesses open a myriad of problems: now gyarados is no longer equipped to handle mega venusaur, manaphy, charizard-y, scizor, or landorus-i. It also becomes susceptible to stuff like conkeldurr mach punch and assorted moonblast/dazzling gleam. The stat increase helps with this a lot, but not the point that it deserves to be a+ rank. The stat increase is also sort of cut by gyarados being able to hold an item- leftovers makes it defensively capable (especially when it forces stuff out) or life orb makes it more powerful (albeit at a cost.) I can't disagree with the fact mega 'dos is a better dragon dance sweeper, but getting there is almost half the battle and it has a much harder time setting up or coming in in general. Of course base form can be maintained until ready to sweep, but without leftovers makes it get worn down fast. Not to mention it takes up a mega slot that could be used for charizard, pinsir, mawile, or venusuar.

Move Mega-Gyarados A+ -----> A (moving normal gyarados up is less of a priority imo)

The other one is a rant on megatar which is coming.

The big thing that you forget is that the user of Mega Gyara decides when to go Mega. Is Conk still alive? Is it to early to try and sweep and you just want to wear down your checks? Fine then stay in normal form. Thats the big selling point of Gyara. Unlike any other mega he doesnt have to evolve imediately, he doesnt have to evolve at all in fact, although he most likely will at some point. Depending on the situation he always has the option to stay in base form and benefit from the resists that the base forms typing brings. But, when the moment comes where he has to face some electric type attack, or break through unaware/levitate users he can evolve, push his bulk and attack even higher, change his weaknesses and there by his checks/counters completely along with his typing and go wild. And the only price you have to pay for all that flexibility is the leftover recovery. Thats a 100 times worth it.

 

[Ajwf]

Counter argument to Gyarados-Mega at A:

Realizing Gyarados' huge Attack and Bulk increase once he gets to his mega form is not to be underestimated. You might claim this is largely irrelevant due to opportunity cost, but Mega Gyarados ranks in +30 in attack, defense and special defense. Not only is his attack then only 10 below mega pinsir, his neutral coverage is BETTER. In fact, on the standard Dragon Dance set, his mold breaker Ice/Ground attacks leaves only ONE pokemon in the entire game to resist it: Surskit. And good luck seeing that in OU.

Utilizing massive attack and perfect bulk for a dragon dancer, Mega Gyarados after +1 will OHKO and Outspeed LatiTwins after rocks, as well as outspeeding everything relevant in the OU tier but Deo-S and (if relevant) Mega Alakazam. Oh and Deo-S revenging you? Superpower with uninvested LO does a bit over 60%, I believe. You KO after rocks and Recoil for sure, have a chance to kill after just LO recoil.

Yes, there are a few counters. Chesnaught, ferrothorn both work. But the pokemon here are resisting the water stab and having SE attacks back/Iron bard recoil, plus just a ton of bulk. Short of scarfer, at +1 Mega Gyarados may take a full HO team lacking Talonflame/Conkeldurr. The win condition to grab a sweep with M-Gyara is INCREDIBLY low. You need: 1 Free turn, no Conkeldurr/Talonflame on Offense, and no Ferrothorn/Chensuaght on defensive teams... Even mega Venu is going to have hell taking this guy.

The other part not mentioned is how important the base form is to mega gyarados. His base for forces fight types to stay away, draws in rotom, and makes grass only neutral. Whereas you can check some pokemon even as they dance up and force them back out, Gyarados-mega's counters have to stay out until he mega evolves meaning you're checking his with something sub-optimal to taking him. Rotom-w is obv cooked, one of the best Gyarados checks. All relevant electric types are outsped after one dragon dance if they lack scarves. Venusaur gets mold broken, Slowbro might get bite stabbed if you do use it (Secures OHKO on Deo-S lol), Quagsire can't check this damn thing in mega form... All just because the best counters can't come in on the pokemon they should counter!

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

EDIT: Also, just for those people who capitalize on Crawdaunt's low bulk, it's actually comprable to Deoxys-S.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 106-126 (43.9 - 52.2%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crawdaunt: 111-132 (41.4 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Crawdaunt has garbage bulk, there's no denying that. 63/85/55 is simply atrocious. I also don't like how you compared it to Deoxys-S who is rather frail itself, but even worse is that you tried to mask its SpDef (by using a physical attacker) which is much worse than it's physical defense (which is still subpar, even more with the awful HP). And you used a really low base power physical attack which alltogether is just trying to do everything to deceive people into thinking Crawdaunt has decent bulk. Hint: it doesn't.

And no its only counter is not Mega Venusaur, Chesnaught works fine as well. >.>

 

[Salt]

Crawdaunt has garbage bulk, there's no denying that. 63/85/55 is simply atrocious. I also don't like how you compared it to Deoxys-S who is rather frail itself, but even worse is that you tried to mask its SpDef (by using a physical attacker) which is much worse than it's physical defense (which is still subpar, even more with the awful HP). And you used a really low base power physical attack which alltogether is just trying to do everything to deceive people into thinking Crawdaunt has decent bulk. Hint: it doesn't.

And no its only counter is not Mega Venusaur, Chesnaught works fine as well. >.>

You completely missed the point. There's a reason I chose a relatively weak priority attack; Crawdaunt has enough bulk to live the hits its supposed to live, namely relatively weak priority attacks. Deoxys-S was just used to illustrate my point further, who doesn't get the rap of bad bulk that Crawdaunt gets. I don't know where you got that I was "trying to deceive people into thinking Crawdaunt has decent bulk".

 

[Aragorn the King]

Crawdaunt has garbage bulk, there's no denying that. 63/85/55 is simply atrocious. I also don't like how you compared it to Deoxys-S who is rather frail itself, but even worse is that you tried to mask its SpDef (by using a physical attacker) which is much worse than it's physical defense (which is still subpar, even more with the awful HP). And you used a really low base power physical attack which alltogether is just trying to do everything to deceive people into thinking Crawdaunt has decent bulk. Hint: it doesn't.

And no its only counter is not Mega Venusaur, Chesnaught works fine as well. >.>

I said only A ranked counters, so Chesnaught does not work. But you're right, it does counter it well.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

You completely missed the point. There's a reason I chose a relatively weak priority attack; Crawdaunt has enough bulk to live the hits its supposed to live, namely relatively weak priority attacks. Deoxys-S was just used to illustrate my point further, who doesn't get the rap of bad bulk that Crawdaunt gets. I don't know where you got that I was "trying to deceive people into thinking Crawdaunt has decent bulk".

With 55 base speed you're vulnerable to more than "relatively weak priority attacks". Anything faster than Crawdaunt with a SE move will likely take it out in one shot. Also Crawdaunt has a lot of trouble coming in safely as a result of its pathetic bulk and low speed. I would like to see Crawdaunt drop to C or even C-, because it faces huge competition from pokemon like Azumarill and Bisharp and Crawdaunt provides no defensive synergy whatsoever. It's more of a burden to your team and its excellent power just goes to waste against any competent player who won't give Crawdaunt a free switch in. Just raw power isn't enough to make it in OU, you need some other traits to back it up of which Crawdaunt doesn't have enough. It has STAB Knock Off + Crabhammer + Aqua Jet, insane power, and everything else about it is just garbage (saying it as it is). Don't even bother setting up with those defenses, it will rarely ever work out.

It has a niche, albeit a really tiny one. I'd even say it's on the same level as Honchkrow, so putting Crawdaunt in D seems appropriate. Honchkrow has much better priority and Moxie to make up for the initial power disadvantage, while maintaining great wallbreaking potential.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Three pages of talking only about Crawdaunt --'

What do you think of promoting Mega Manectric to B+? I've seeing this pokemon a lot lately and it's a very powerful pivot. Its volt switches hurt, its electric+ice+fire coverage is very effective and it has the speed to threaten about everything. It's weak to priority, but many common priority users have trouble switching into it and don't like taking its volt switches.

 

[Salt]

With 55 base speed you're vulnerable to more than "relatively weak priority attacks". Anything faster than Crawdaunt with a SE move will likely take it out in one shot. Also Crawdaunt has a lot of trouble coming in safely as a result of its pathetic bulk and low speed. I would like to see Crawdaunt drop to C or even C-, because it faces huge competition from pokemon like Azumarill and Bisharp and Crawdaunt provides no defensive synergy whatsoever. It's more of a burden to your team and its excellent power just goes to waste against any competent player who won't give Crawdaunt a free switch in. Just raw power isn't enough to make it in OU, you need some other traits to back it up of which Crawdaunt doesn't have enough. It has STAB Knock Off + Crabhammer + Aqua Jet, insane power, and everything else about it is just garbage (saying it as it is). Don't even bother setting up with those defenses, it will rarely ever work out.

It has a niche, albeit a really tiny one. I'd even say it's on the same level as Honchkrow, so putting Crawdaunt in D seems appropriate. Honchkrow has much better priority and Moxie to make up for the initial power disadvantage, while maintaining great wallbreaking potential.

You can't be serious. D Rank? Really? Have you even used or fought against Crawdaunt? Do you know how hard Crawdaunt is to switch into? Mega Vensuaur and Chesnaught are pretty much the only hard counters; nothing else wants to take its attacks, and set-up opportunities come from forced switches. Anything that dares to switch in will either lose an item to Knock Off, or pretty much die if it's slower and not one of the two aforementioned mons. Crawdaunt exceeds at completely fucking up defensive teams, probably on the same level as Kyurem-B and Charizard Y. This is where its low speed doesn't matter, because you outspeed pretty much every relevant defensive mon by investing in speed. THAT is what Crawdaunt is good for. Not being a sweeper like Azumarill or Bisharp, but an insanely powerful wallbreaker. Both Azumarill and Bisharp lack the immediate power that Crawdaunt has. Bisharp is also quite frail specially with common weaknesses and more unreliable priority. Azumarill's differences from Crawdaunt have been beaten to death already, so I don't feel the need to re-enlighten you on that. The point is to stop looking at Crawdaunt as "just another physical Water-type or Knock Off user". D-Rank for something so absurdly powerful and threatening to defensive teams is laughable.

 

[Ajwf]

I don't see Rampardos being ranked, Salt... Also absurdly powerful. Power means nothing if it doesn't get off attacks with any consistency and Crawdaunt has defenses comparable only to an opossum on a street. It hits hard, but is limited to use Aqua jet if it can't force the opponent out. And the frailty+low speed means it won't force much out as they'd rather just attack and almost kill it if they have any capacity to do so.

If Crawdaunt has a rank, let it stay. If unranked, C is the highest it should go. I believe that Crawdaunt has been ranked, though, so I would hope that the mods opt to end the discussion on this irrelevant pokemon.

Seriously. It doesn't exist in the metagame to any extent that we need to discuss him. Certainly not to this length.

 

[Mood4food77]

mega venusuar isn't even safe from crawdaunt

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 170-200 (46.7 - 54.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Crawdaunt also outruns Mega Venusaur here

Chesnaught though ruins Crawdaunt

but here's another calc to back up da daunt:
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 204-241 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

is he amazing? no, he has obvious flaws like lack of bulk, not so great defensive typing, hard to switch in, etc. but put him on a team that uses a slow voltturner and then tell me crawdaunt sucks.

just because i can:
-2 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 232-276 (71.6 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-4 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 108-128 (33.3 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crawdaunt: 212-250 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crawdaunt: 35-42 (13 - 15.6%) -- possible 7HKO

Even if Aegislash plays da daunt right, he's still not guaranteed victory. Da Daunt for C Rank yo

 

[Salt]

I don't see Rampardos being ranked, Salt... Also absurdly powerful. Power means nothing if it doesn't get off attacks with any consistency and Crawdaunt has defenses comparable only to an opossum on a street. It hits hard, but is limited to use Aqua jet if it can't force the opponent out. And the frailty+low speed means it won't force much out as they'd rather just attack and almost kill it if they have any capacity to do so.

If Crawdaunt has a rank, let it stay. If unranked, C is the highest it should go. I believe that Crawdaunt has been ranked, though, so I would hope that the mods opt to end the discussion on this irrelevant pokemon.

Seriously. It doesn't exist in the metagame to any extent that we need to discuss him. Certainly not to this length.

The current discussion is supposed to revolve around lower ranked mons, as the more important higher ranked mons are being discussed in VR. I'm seriously irked at the underestimation of Crawdaunt that's happening right now, which is why I'm making such a case for it.

Also, I REALLY don't understand how fucking Rampardos got dragged into this. If you're comparing that to Crawdaunt, then you clearly haven't used Crawdaunt enough.

EDIT: I do believe it's been sufficiently discussed, though. I'm willing to wait on a verdict from mods (B- please) and discuss something else if it's something I care enough about.

 

[LeekSlap/ChewyDonuts]

I think Hawlucha and Venomoth should get ranked as Venomooth is getting an analysis and Hawlucha is now in BL. Probably Hawlucha C rank and Venomoth B+ or B. Hawlucha gets crazy boosts in Sword's Dance and Unburden but is too frail to set up and can't afford to hold a Focus Sash because of Unburden, but when it does set up, it can sweep. Venomoth is the only Baton Passer with Quiver Dance and is extremely hard to counter or check because you have to risk the Sleep Powder which makes it very hard to stop Venomoth from getting up a Baton Pass. Another good set Venomoth can run is in its great ability Tinted Lens, so it can sweep.

 

[Ajwf]

The current discussion is supposed to revolve around lower ranked mons, as the more important higher ranked mons are being discussed in VR. I'm seriously irked at the underestimation of Crawdaunt that's happening right now, which is why I'm making such a case for it.

Also, I REALLY don't understand how fucking Rampardos got dragged into this. If you're comparing that to Crawdaunt, then you clearly haven't used Crawdaunt enough.

EDIT: I do believe it's been sufficiently discussed, though. I'm willing to wait on a verdict from mods (B- please) and discuss something else if it's something I care enough about.

Lower ranked mons do not have to be mons completely outclassed in the current metagame. And regardless of crawdaunt being underestimated, he's just not that good in a metagame full of talonflames, Conkeldurs, Keldeos and sun setters like Charizard Y. If Rotom-Wash runs any speed (8) it outspeeds and kills adamant Crawdaunt with volt switch. Even Latios, who is weak to that dark stab, can easily revenge kill and won't have any reason to be forced out when the draco meteor does a clean OHKO. After rocks, Latios can even have a chance to OHKO on his SECOND draco meteor, and it isn't even a slim chance.

-2 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 222-263 (82.8 - 98.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Also means Craw kills itself on Knock off were it to survive. What about Thundy-I, who can OHKO on tbolt and takes 65% max from aqua jet? These are all ridiculously common metagame threats. Crawdaunt may be powerful, but he does not have the speed, defense or metagame to thrive in.

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

Jirachi was just rejected an analysis for being nonviable and should be removed from the list or at least significantly lowered from B-, as Jirachi just isn't very effective right now. It was heavily nerfed from BW, has a bad match-up against several top threats such as Aegislash, Talonflame, both Charizard and Mega Venusaur and it's best BW sets all range from mediocre (Choice Scarf) to flat out bad (Sub CM).

 

[the-bumper-car]

Three pages of talking only about Crawdaunt --'

What do you think of promoting Mega Manectric to B+? I've seeing this pokemon a lot lately and it's a very powerful pivot. Its volt switches hurt, its electric+ice+fire coverage is very effective and it has the speed to threaten about everything. It's weak to priority, but many common priority users have trouble switching into it and don't like taking its volt switches.

M-Manectric's problem in OU is that you're giving up a mega-slot that could be used on one of the far stronger Megas. Not gonna lie, it'd be fantastic if I could fit M-Manectric beside M-zard or M-Venu or M-Pinsir, but that isn't possible in OU right now. I'd have to settle for Rotom-W/Rotom-H as my volt-switching pivot.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

I don't have a strong opinion on where Mega Man should go, but "it takes up a mega slot" is IMO a pretty poor argument for the ranking of mega forms. Every pokemon in the game has an opportunity cost; you can only use six of them.

If I build up a team and find that [some other mega] fits on it better than Mega Pinsir or whatever, then I'm going to use [some other mega]. Your team is not going to be better off if you arbitrarily stick an S-rank mega in it. If we're ranking mega forms it should be on what roles they can fulfill and how well they can fulfill them, like everything else on the list.

 

[Always!]

M-Manectric's problem in OU is that you're giving up a mega-slot that could be used on one of the far stronger Megas. Not gonna lie, it'd be fantastic if I could fit M-Manectric beside M-zard or M-Venu or M-Pinsir, but that isn't possible in OU right now. I'd have to settle for Rotom-W/Rotom-H as my volt-switching pivot.

Giving up a mega slot for what? MManectric's biggest competition for fast Pivot is Jolteon, and Jolteon doesn't have as good a movepool and doesn't have the coveted Intimidate as an ability. Not to mention being somewhat faster, and if Jolteon is lacking an LO or Specs, it hits slightly weaker than MManectric. It all depends on what roles to fill like Sergeant Spooky said, so it makes no difference if it costs a Mega slot or not, when you have a fantastic pivot that you needed with your team. Same goes for literally every Mega in the game, as each of them have some type of niche that is useful to most teams.

 

[the-bumper-car]

But it does make a big difference! There's a reason why the S and A-ranked Megas are up there - they're the best at their role in the current meta. The gap in effectivity between them and the next best thing is rather large. The gap between Manectric and its possible substitutes (as a Pivot - Jolteon and Rotom, as a defensive electric type, Rotom and Zapdos) are much smaller, IMHO, that it's a far easier compromise to make that swap.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

Going by these definitions, Mega Man fits somewhere in B just fine. There's not mention of opportunity cost. Mega Man doesn't have the power, coverage or boosting ability to "sweep a significant portion of the meta," it doesn't the bulk to wall it either, but it can "properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche" (intimidate+STAB Volt Switch+High Speed+Flammenwerfer) and it doesn't have really have any "flaws that prevent [it] from consistently executing [its] strategy."

The suggestion was just for B+ anyway. It's not like he was saying it's as strong as the other megas.

 

[Always!]

But it does make a big difference! There's a reason why the S and A-ranked Megas are up there - they're the best at their role in the current meta. The gap in effectivity between them and the next best thing is rather large. The gap between Manectric and its possible substitutes (as a Pivot - Jolteon and Rotom, as a defensive electric type, Rotom and Zapdos) are much smaller, IMHO, that it's a far easier compromise to make that swap.

In their own way, yes, but you can't just say that MPinsir is the best Sweeper there is, and not use any other Physical Mega, that's stupid. Different teams appreciate different things, that's the point, and in MManectric's case, Jolteon is outclassed by it by quite a large margin as a Pivot, but if Jolteon has something it can bring to the teams table, it can be a better choice, but MManectric is still better with it's many added pluses compared to Jolteon like ntimidate, Flamethrower, higher speed and SpA, better Bulk, etc...

 

[Rotosect]

Jirachi was just rejected an analysis for being nonviable and should be removed from the list or at least significantly lowered from B-, as Jirachi just isn't very effective right now. It was heavily nerfed from BW, has a bad match-up against several top threats such as Aegislash, Talonflame, both Charizard and Mega Venusaur and it's best BW sets all range from mediocre (Choice Scarf) to flat out bad (Sub CM).

This is something that bothers me. While I'm glad that the little paraflinchhaxer got nerfed badly, I'm having a hard time understanding how it went from a borderline S-rank threat to the point it shouldn't even be ranked.
Other pokemon that got nerfed, like Breloom, simply adapted to the new metagame (please don't tell me that the existance of fairies, Aegislash, Talonflame, grass types being immune to Spore and the Low Sweep nerf don't count as massive nerfs).

While Jirachi got a slew of nerfs, it did gain an advantage against fairy types and it still has a massive movepool and solid stats to work with. I think people should put more effort in attempting to find a new niche before dismissing it.

Edit: Jirachi gets Healing Wish, and in a metagame with powerful setup sweepers like Mega Gyarados and Mega Tyranitar who can be crippled by status and/or priority it seems a handy support move to have.
The only notable users in OU are Clefable and Latias, who have better things to do (walling/defogging).
Jirachi is after Latias (and Lopunny) the fastest user of the move and despite its weaknesses its defensive type and bulk are still good enough to pull it off.
Isn't that enough of a niche to put Jirachi somewhere on the list?