Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[skies]

Now that the VR subforum has caught up with Mega Pinsir, it's time for my "I told you" post (previous posts: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...v2-check-post-530.3502428/page-6#post-5321219 and http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...v2-check-post-530.3502428/page-8#post-5327881).

There are strong arguments about moving Mega Pinsir to A+ both in this thread and in the VR one, and at this point it's hard to deny that the metagame has greatly shifted against it, with pokemon such as Zapdos being very common and Defog becoming an increasingly less safe method for removing hazards.
Speaking of Defog, a common scenario is using it late-game so you can safely set-up with Mega Pinsir and attempt to sweep, only to be met with a +2 Defiant Thundurus who craps all over Pinsir and possibly the rest of your team. This means you should be using Rapid Spin over Defog, but with that you'll have to deal with Aegislash, who is a pain in the ass for every spinner (yes, even Excadrill) not named Mega Blastoise, which you obviously can't use in the same team.

As powerful as Mega Pinsir is, its issues with entry hazards and lack of versatility compared to the other S-rank pokemon mean it should be dropped to A+.

'its issue with entry hazards'
Oh, then should Mega Charizard drop as well? Having a weakness to entry hazards doesn't make you automatically suck. And yes, it has a weakness to Stealth Rock, but you're forgetting it is also immune to Spikes and Sticky Web, which is a positive. It lacks versatility? Could you elaborate, it only needs three moves to be deadly, as do many other things. I agree it has a bit of a problem setting up, but after, its 'checks' do not check it anymore, for instance:
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 198-233 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
It can no longer switch into Mega Pinsir and:
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 254-302 (93.7 - 111.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
It does not secure the OHKO on full health Pinsir. And if you haven't set up, then you get hit twice by Return (maybe even 3 if you it survives the Thunderbolt), but then you're left for anything else to kill you, see:
25.7 - 30.4% + 25.7 - 30.4% + 25% (SR) = 76.4 - 85, if Zapdos has already switched into Stealth Rock once, then Mega Pinsir overwhelms it, and if Thunderbolt does not OHKO it, then Mega Pinsir wins again, although it is weak too. But I will give it to you that Pinsir will not always be at 100% and have SR off the field. But you go and say that Defog is unsafe thanks to Defiant, of course, but not every team runs Defiant and no good player will use Defog on an opponent with Defiant Pokemon. And Excadrill is only pained when Aegislash has its Air Balloon in tact, but not every single one runs it and it gets popped after one hit, so you can't say that Excadrill is not a good matchup against Aegislash. Mega Pinsir is a very powerful Pokemon, and I'd like to see you come up with one Pokemon that can avoid being either 2HKOed or OHKOed by +2 Mega Pinsir, I'll get the obvious ones out of the way:
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 142-168 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 198-233 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 350-412 (86.6 - 101.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 406-478 (106.2 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 318-375 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 321-378 (90.6 - 106.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 162-192 (47 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 233-275 (76.6 - 90.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Now I know Calcs are not everything, but they still prove a huge point. And yes, I am aware that setting up Swords Dance can be difficult, but if you manage to set it up, then it is hard to stop without a Skarmory, which does not fit on every single team. And even without SD it is still scary as hell. I like running Sub > Quick Attack, and although it seems weird, it shields me from Burns and allows me room to set up. But sacrificing QA is pretty huge. In my opinion, Mega Pinsir is a perfectly great S-Rank threat, as it has a huge blend of power, priority, and even bulk (65/120/90 is not too shabby). And although it doesn't have the best typing in the world, its weaknesses can be overcomed, and that is what S-Rank is, Pokemon who can cause serious havoc with some team support, but not much. Really, what Mega Pinsir needs is Defog and that's pretty much it... I fail to see anything but S-Rank for Mega Pinsir.

 

[Ajwf]

As always, Chesnaught, you forget these pokemon come IN on the turn it boosts and then proceed to force it out or kill it. Yes, big damage to the counter, but if Zap slays Pinsir-mega (And it runs like 64 SpA evs to do so), it has performed it's job. A mega for the pokemon countering it is pretty fair, in fact a good trade for the person running Zap/Rotom/M-Pinsir check/counter. The metagame has prepared for it, it is NOT an S rank mon. It requires support to defog, to eliminate skarm, damage Zapdos badly (hard to do with roost pressure stall) or Rotom-wash, to take out any scarfers like Lando, Chomp and stop the Ever-present talonflames/Thundy-incarnates.

There really shouldn't be an argument for this. It isn't S-rank material.

 

[skies]

As always, Chesnaught, you forget these pokemon come IN on the turn it boosts and then proceed to force it out or kill it. Yes, big damage to the counter, but if Zap slays Pinsir-mega (And it runs like 64 SpA evs to do so), it has performed it's job. A mega for the pokemon countering it is pretty fair, in fact a good trade for the person running Zap/Rotom/M-Pinsir check/counter. The metagame has prepared for it, it is NOT an S rank mon. It requires support to defog, to eliminate skarm, damage Zapdos badly (hard to do with roost pressure stall) or Rotom-wash, to take out any scarfers like Lando, Chomp and stop the Ever-present talonflames/Thundy-incarnates.

There really shouldn't be an argument for this. It isn't S-rank material.

No, I did not forget that, re-read my post, I said AFTER it sets up, and after its counters are removed what stops it from setting up? Every Pokemon has counters and by just running an Electric-type you beat out Skarmory. I am a full supporter of S-Rank, and I am not making the mistake of 'setting up on the switch' again, I realize that. But what I'm trying to say (I suck at getting out my words):
After Mega Pinsir has set up, nothing can safely switch into it. I know explicitly that it has issues setting up, but after Skarmory is gone, then Mega Pinsir has no problem, and Skarmory is not on every team.

 

[Ajwf]

What about Thundurus, who outspeeds, resists Quick attack, can paralyze or go for a kill?
Talonflame, who has SE priority Brave bird?
Scarf Edgequake pokemon (Lando, Terrak [naturally outspeeds], Garchomp)
Manectric-Mega, who outspeeds and resists quick attack, as well as having intimidate?

It isn't so simple as Skarm gone == sweep.

 

[skies]

What about Thundurus, who outspeeds, resists Quick attack, can paralyze or go for a kill?
Talonflame, who has SE priority Brave bird?
Scarf Edgequake pokemon (Lando, Terrak [naturally outspeeds], Garchomp)
Manectric-Mega, who outspeeds and resists quick attack, as well as having intimidate?

It isn't so simple as Skarm gone == sweep.

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 130-153 (43.3 - 51%)
A weakened Thundurus gets killed, that's why you save Mega Pinsir for the late game (or if it has switched in twice), and it cannot switch into Return or Quick Attack, so something has to die for Thundurus to get in safely, which is still Mega Pinsir causing havoc.
You've got me on Talonflame, but Talonflame has seen a decline in usage anyways... Also, if no Choice Band:
252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 270-318 (99.2 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
The odds aren't in Mega Pinsir's favor, but there still is a tiny chance.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 204-240 (56.9 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So it can't switch into Quick Attack.
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 223-263 (79.3 - 93.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Mega Manectric cannot switch in, and Volt Switch is not a OHKO. But can any of those switch in after a Swords Dance? No, none can, they can switch in on the Swords Dance, then get severely weakened, but none can safely switch in after a Swords Dance.

 

[the-bumper-car]

* It isn't weak to fire
* Kyu-B has the same speed as Kyurem
* Thanks to its nature, Kyurem usually has better bulk thank Kyu-B
* It also has higher special attack

Kyu-B is better, but I don't agree with most of your points about why Kyurem is unviable.

My bad about the Fire weakness, but let's not forget the Dragon weakness now, shall we? It's also tough to be a defensive mon in OU when you don't resist Fire, Flying, or Ground. I think that Pressure stalling is hard enough to do in OU right now without using a mon with Kyurem Vanilla's peculiar weaknesses, which grant it no significant resistances to the most common attacks thrown around OR to the typical status moves. It doesn't even have any way to recover momentum for the team. Maybe if you're using a Hail Stall team?

Also isn't the fact that the meta is "overprepared" for M-Pinsir a sign of how dominating it is? "Everyone is bringing counters to it" was also an argument in the anti-ban side for the previous suspects, and that didn't stop them from getting Uber'd.

 

[NotSoClutch]

My bad about the Fire weakness, but let's not forget the Dragon weakness now, shall we? It's also tough to be a defensive mon in OU when you don't resist Fire, Flying, or Ground. I think that Pressure stalling is hard enough to do in OU right now without using a mon with Kyurem Vanilla's peculiar weaknesses, which grant it no significant resistances to the most common attacks thrown around OR to the typical status moves. It doesn't even have any way to recover momentum for the team. Maybe if you're using a Hail Stall team?

Also isn't the fact that the meta is "overprepared" for M-Pinsir a sign of how dominating it is? "Everyone is bringing counters to it" was also an argument in the anti-ban side for the previous suspects, and that didn't stop them from getting Uber'd.

Yes but Pinsir also has more counters and checks than the great mega Kanga or Lucario.

 

[Rotosect]

Also isn't the fact that the meta is "overprepared" for M-Pinsir a sign of how dominating it is? "Everyone is bringing counters to it" was also an argument in the anti-ban side for the previous suspects, and that didn't stop them from getting Uber'd.

Actually this has always been the main reason for dropping something from S to A. Metagame shifts happen constantly and we judge a pokemon based on its current performance. If the metagame is not kind to a pokemon it simply doesn't belong in S.

As for Kyurem, it needs to be ranked somewhere around C. Pressure stalling is still a viable strategy that lets it beat things KyuB has a hard time with, such as Ferrothorn with Gyro Ball. It still beats RotomW and Megasaur through PP stalling as they can't really do anything back. I have seen KyuB running purely special sets, so why not use normal Kyurem instead?

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Also isn't the fact that the meta is "overprepared" for M-Pinsir a sign of how dominating it is? "Everyone is bringing counters to it" was also an argument in the anti-ban side for the previous suspects, and that didn't stop them from getting Uber'd.

People "adapated" to Mega Mom with stupid shit like Sableye or Rocky Helm on everything.
People "adapted" to Mega Lucario by... uh... Assault Vest Azumarill? Pretty sure, between it special and physical sets, only Aegislash and Assault Vest Azumarill with a very specific EV spread could counter Lucario when rocks were up, and neither had recovery and both had to be at absolutely full health to counter.

Mega Pinsir? Defensive teams have the option of Zapdos and Skarmory, offensive teams can choose a large number of checks like Terrakion, Scarfchomp, Talonflame, Deo-S, Thundurus, and more.

 

[Baharoth]

Sable eye and Rocky Helmet are still around so i guess they arent that stupid. And I am pretty sure that Zapdos could handle mega luke even after rocks while each set had tons of counters, the problem was to counter both sets in 1 mon which was hard but not impossible.

And in terms of checks revengekillers, basicly every mon you mention exept Deo-S could take on Mega Kanga and Mega Luke as well, so maybe we should unban them and put them into A+ because the meta is prepared for them?

 

[Durant]

Sable eye and Rocky Helmet are still around so i guess they arent that stupid. And I am pretty sure that Zapdos could handle mega luke even after rocks while each set had tons of counters, the problem was to counter both sets in 1 mon which was hard but not impossible.

And in terms of checks revengekillers, basicly every mon you mention exept Deo-S could take on Mega Kanga and Mega Luke as well, so maybe we should unban them and put them into A+ because the meta is prepared for them?

Aside from Ferrothorn what commonly carries rocky helmet? Sableye has fallen to RU ever since mega kangaskhan is gone. So those things are pretty stupid.

 

[Baharoth]

I see it on Skarmory quite often, and Garchomp for example didnt realy lose much by using Rocky Helmet especialy considering that he was a hard stop to Kanga. I ve been playing on wifi alot where Kanga is everywhere and honestly, put RH Garchomp or Ferro on your team and your totaly save from it. So even that monster had fairly save counters. And revengekilling it wasnt that much of an issue either. And Mega luke had a very hard time to set up, even more so than Pinsir because of his non existing defenses and extremly common weaknesses.

 

[Monte Cristo]

@

(for back to A+)

I have a serious problem... with Mega Chomp being as low as it is. I seriously feel that Mega Garchomp is honestly one of the best SR setting pivots and SD/Mixed wall breakers in the tier, and for fucks sake it does NOT require sand support to function well, being about as strong as LO chomp w/o recoil is pretty damn good to me. To start off, you all know our common defensive pokemon in crime that started in gen 5 and never seemed to go out of the spotlight eh? While a good chunk of it's popularity has to do with the typing, it also is about the bulk, a LOT about the bulk. And guess what Mega Garchomp can do? Fact- Mega Garchomp is bulkier than Ferrothorn.

0- Atk Mew Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (NO ITEM) Ferrothorn: 26-31 (7.3 - 8.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Mew Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 51-61 (14.4 - 17.3%) -- possible 6HKO
0- Atk Mew Knock Off vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 38-45 (10.6 - 12.5%) -- possible 8HKO
0- Atk Mew Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 38-45 (9 - 10.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0- Atk Mew Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Garchomp: 28-34 (6.6 - 8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Mew Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 61-72 (14.5 - 17.1%) -- possible 6HKO
0 SpA Mew Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 61-72 (17 - 20.1%) -- possible 5HKO

Yeah those calcs aren't jokes. Mega Chomp is actually that bulky. However don't take the scenarios seriously, mew would probably never be doing that etc. But you get the point, while Mega Chomp doesn't have all of the resists, it has the bulk to back it up. For instance, I've been trying a pivot SR-sdef set hybrid to wall Char Y and Aegis and it's been working fantastic-

Garchomp @ Garchompite
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 200 SDef / 252 HP / 56 Atk
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Stealth Rock
- Roar

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Mega Garchomp in Sun: 134-158 (31.9 - 37.6%) -- 90.9% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Mega Garchomp: 130-154 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 68.5% chance to 3HKO
56+ Atk Mega Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 193-228 (64.7 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Mega Garchomp: 177-211 (42.1 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 276-326 (85.1 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Not only this but it can work as other things too, a reliable SR setter and even a Charizard emergency check as even if the charizard is X it can survive one adamant dragon claw and KO back with it's own dragon claw.

Mega Garchomp isn't just limited to that however, but people already know how much of an amazing wall breaker it is, I'll just let this post have it's worth as a defensive analysis of Chomp

 

[JuliAnn]

Srn9130 + Sergeant Spooky
Azumarill cannot run all of Play Rough / Waterfall / Aqua Jet / Knock Off / Superpower though, so it's undoubtedly going to be walled by one or the other. And not to mention M-Venusaur walls any sets, like any:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 94-112 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 126-150 (41.8 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This is Azumarill's best option against M-Venusaur and even when M-Venusaur doesn't invest in Defense it is only 3HKO'ed. I don't know, really, I just have a firm belief that Azumarill is A, I'm just not impressed with it.

You have 5 other Pokemon to deal with Mega Venusaur, Skarmory, and Ferro. Personally I've been using Azumarill as an offensive pivot to make the Skarm Chansey core good again because in this gen it's more vulnerable than ever with things like Zard X and Keldeo. I use AV Azu and I swear that set has saved me multiple time against the likes of Zard X and Keldeo. You're obviously not going to leave Azumarill in on a bulky grass type. That's what my Zard and Bisharp are for.

 

[NotSoClutch]

I see it on Skarmory quite often, and Garchomp for example didnt realy lose much by using Rocky Helmet especialy considering that he was a hard stop to Kanga. I ve been playing on wifi alot where Kanga is everywhere and honestly, put RH Garchomp or Ferro on your team and your totaly save from it. So even that monster had fairly save counters. And revengekilling it wasnt that much of an issue either. And Mega luke had a very hard time to set up, even more so than Pinsir because of his non existing defenses and extremly common weaknesses.

Very little actually stopped mega mom. Yes Ferrothorn could severely damage it, but mega mom has fire punch so Ferrothorn would often still be KOed. Yes Garchomp was a solid stop to mega mom, but the rocky helmet set is unable to KO and is really easy to wear down with other Pokemon in the early game. The only thing that "Countered" kanga was Sableye and it really couldn't do anything if mega mom carried substitute or switched into a fire type like Heatran or Talonflame on a predicted will-o-wisp. This is in no way comparable to the situation Pinsir is currently in.

 

[Baharoth]

Kanga rarely had Firepunch because it needed the slot for more important moves like Crunch or Earthquake. And it doesnt matter all that much if Garchomp is worn down a bit as long as he has enough life left to take one hit from Kanga. However, thats a mood discussion since Kanga is banned.

The point is even Kanga and Luke had a few counters, actually just as many as Pinsir has and both of them could be checked/revenged by a considerable amount of common pokes just like Pinsir and in terms of power Pinsir is easily on par with them.

And as I have mentioned serveral times, its not that hard for Pinsir to get by most of his counters. Just had a game today where I had to switch out my Zapdos while it was on 70% life with SR on the field. Then Pinsir got in and it was gg. Rotom-W has even more trouble as it cant even switch in as long as Pinsir is unevolved because it would get raped by EQ.

It might be easy for stall teams to keep their Pinsir counter out of the line all the time but on a balanced team where you have a core of 2 or 3 defensive mons you cant just hold back a part of that core to keep it at full life all the time so it can savely check Pinsir, especially not if the opponents team is build around Pinsir and has other threats with similar counters. And relying on revenge killing to handle it isnt realy ideal as Pinsir can just switch out after killing something, it just needs SR gone to wear down his counters and checks on his own.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Kanga rarely had Firepunch because it needed the slot for more important moves like Crunch or Earthquake. And it doesnt matter all that much if Garchomp is worn down a bit as long as he has enough life left to take one hit from Kanga. However, thats a mood discussion since Kanga is banned.

The point is even Kanga and Luke had a few counters, actually just as many as Pinsir has and both of them could be checked/revenged by a considerable amount of common pokes just like Pinsir and in terms of power Pinsir is easily on par with them.

And as I have mentioned serveral times, its not that hard for Pinsir to get by most of his counters. Just had a game today where I had to switch out my Zapdos while it was on 70% life with SR on the field. Then Pinsir got in and it was gg. Rotom-W has even more trouble as it cant even switch in as long as Pinsir is unevolved because it would get raped by EQ.

It might be easy for stall teams to keep their Pinsir counter out of the line all the time but on a balanced team where you have a core of 2 or 3 defensive mons you cant just hold back a part of that core to keep it at full life all the time so it can savely check Pinsir, especially not if the opponents team is build around Pinsir and has other threats with similar counters. And relying on revenge killing to handle it isnt realy ideal as Pinsir can just switch out after killing something, it just needs SR gone to wear down his counters and checks on his own.

The point was that kanga could get past its "counters" but pinsir cannot.

 

[Baharoth]

The point was that kanga could get past its "counters" but pinsir cannot.

Only with the right coverage move, there was always a counter he couldnt handle, and even with the right coverage move it would lose at least 50% of its life. And Pinsir CAN get past its counters, atleast past most of them, Skarm is indeed hard to overcome on its own but thats it.

 

[Durant]

Only with the right coverage move, there was always a counter he couldnt handle, and even with the right coverage move it would lose at least 50% of its life. And Pinsir CAN get past its counters, atleast past most of them, Skarm is indeed hard to overcome on its own but thats it.

Yes but you don't know what Kangaskhan is carrying until it is too late unlike Pinsir who has an always counter in Skarmory.

 

[Baharoth]

Yes and I guess thats one of the reasons why Kanga got banned while Pinsir is not. Having one save counter doesnt make him A+ though, at least not for me. If we look at the other mons in S they have far more checks and counters, I mean honestly, which team has trouble dealing with Aegislash nowadays? There are tons of save switch ins for him. Same for the Zards and Thundurus who are also weak to rocks while non of them is as threatening as Pinsir. Getting your Pinsir counter damaged can easily cost you the game, on the other hand even if you lose your counter to the other S Rank threats its still possible to stop them most of the time as they dont have the combination of incredible speed and power along with strong priority. They can be outspeed, fail to ohko lots of things that can deal massive dmg to them, and can be finished off with priority. Pinsir ohkos almost everything at + 2, is hard to outspeed and even if your faster or have priority you still have to worry about Quick Attack.

 

[New World Order]

Snorlax needs to be moved up to B or B- immediately. The fact that the Assault Vest set is the only one people seem to use is one thing that holds him back. Don't use it. Snorlax with Rest is absolutely amazing atm, he lets you scratch so many special attackers off your threat list. But unlike the likes of Chansey, Snorlax can actually provide some meaningful offence. He's one of the best in the game at sponging various special attacks and Thick Fat is just great, giving him numerous opportunities to set up. I've only been using him a few days so I haven't figured out an optimal EV spread, but I currently run a weird set is 252 HP / 80 Atk / 176 SpD with a Careful Nature and Lefties, and use Return/Earthquake/Rest/Sleep Talk. There's almost certainly a better moveset out there somewhere, but this one is pretty simple to use. This spread allows it to avoid the 2HKO from Timid Charizard Y Focus Blast. It walks all over Leftovers Thundurus-I, which is what good players high in the ladder use nowadays anyway, Life Orb Thundurus will KO itself with recoil as Snorlax heals up. Mega Gardevoir is another special attacker that can't even 2HKO with the inaccurate Focus Blast. The ever increasingly popular Raikou, Zapdos, and Manetric do laughable damage to it as well. Rotom-W is something hilarious like a 7HKO, while Snorlax can just Rest to deal with Will-o-Wisp. Greninja might as well pack it's bag and go home, as should the Latii twins. Even +3 Manaphy can't 2HKO with Surf, so you could probably run Roar or something if you're not comfortable facing that thing. Hell, the only special attackers that can 2HKO it are Keldeo with Secret Sword and Lando-I if Focus Blast hits for 2 turns in a row. While you should never switch him into them, this mofo is actually surprisingly good at eating physical hits from S/A+ threats as well despite no physical investment. Bisharp for one fails to 2HKO while unboosted, while Snorlax comfortably 2HKOs with EQ. Unboosted Charizard X often has trouble getting a 4HKO thanks to Thick Fat and Leftovers, while Snorlax again comfortably 2HKOs in return thanks to the Attack investment. Hell, AEGISLASH fails to OHKO with Sacred Sword, while Snorlax has a good chance of OHKOing with EQ. Yes, that's the thing with 150 base Attack.

 

[teamdelibird]

Alright, so, I brought this up a little while ago, someone else seconded it, so somebody tell me why Clefable ISN'T A+ or S rank right now. Honestly, I'd like to know what makes that little monster not worthy of the top of OU when I've swept entire teams with it without breaking a sweat.

 

[psVoltage]

How does everyone feel about Kyurem-Black at the moment? He seems to be a little less relevant than he was at the start of the gen when he could dominate all the rotom-W's that were meant to check The new Talonflame. Just Haven't seen the guy around much, so is there a reason?

 

[Rotosect]

Kyu-B is still great, and it seems people have started experimenting with other sets besides its standard Sub+3 attacks in order to lure in and destroy Conkeldurr, Eviolite Chansey, Sylveon and Clefable.
It's still the only true reliable answer to the annoying Rotom-W+Mega Venusaur duo and it beats most defensive FGW cores by itself.
It's a pokemon that can easily adapt to metagame shifts - if the metagame gets to specially defensive then it can run CB or LO, otherwise it can Sub+3 attacks.

I also support moving Mamoswine to A rank. EQ and Ice Shard are the only moves it really needs on every set, the other 2 slots can be used for Icicle Crash, Icicle Spear, Knock Off, Freeze Dry, Endeavor and Stealth Rock, giving Mamo a certain degree of unpredictability and almost zero safe switch-ins.

 

[Baharoth]

Alright, so, I brought this up a little while ago, someone else seconded it, so somebody tell me why Clefable ISN'T A+ or S rank right now. Honestly, I'd like to know what makes that little monster not worthy of the top of OU when I've swept entire teams with it without breaking a sweat.

Imo its mediocre stats hold it back. Depending on which side you invest in the bulk on the other side is extremely low and even with invested bulk it can be 2hkoed by strong attackers even without SE attacks or boosts, especially on the physical side. S Rank would be a bit to much imo, A+ would be ok i guess although I think that A fits it as well.

How does everyone feel about Kyurem-Black at the moment? He seems to be a little less relevant than he was at the start of the gen when he could dominate all the rotom-W's that were meant to check The new Talonflame. Just Haven't seen the guy around much, so is there a reason?

Well he has never been all that popular, especially on the lower ranks of the ladder but he is still incredibly strong, not so much his sub set but the physical all out attacker set is awesome as it can take down stall teams all on its own. Scarf can also be a nice suprise as hardly anyone expects it.