np: XY UU Stage 1 - Reload [Salamence: BL | Next: DROPS!!!]

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Shiny Minun said:
I love cress to death, but isn't only having one safe switch in an issue? I mean Zygarde had a healthy list and it was still considered potentially broken. Even with all the different sets there was still slowbro and cress that could jump over every set pretty much.

I'm just curious why nidoking has not been considered for this, considering cresselia is the only safe switch in we can really find. I guess it's cause he can't set up and become a OHKO machine, but I could be wrong.

Even cresselia gets risky with the physical sets that can breach 50% on max p.def cress
252+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 203-239 (45.7 - 53.8%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
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Well the thing about Zygarde is that any counters to the SubCoil set can be phazed out by Dragon Tail which wears them down with Tail damage + harzards, making only Regen poke like Slowbro or poke that are immune to D.Tail that aren't 2hko'd by EQ like (lol) Shedinja are true counters to the SubCoil set. It is hard to check too as its subs are hard to break after a few coils. Its brokenness is different from Nidoking. Nidoking is easily checked due to its speed tier, which isn't too great at 85, and its typing leaves it with many common weakness meaning it cannot switch into most things. It also has 4MSS meaning that by forgoing one of the BoltBeam, STABs and Focus Blast it gets walled by something, and without going full physical or carry the niche Shadow Ball SpDef Mew and Def Cress can wall it comfortably.
 
point about the nidoking/zygarde comparation is that although nidoking has more immediate power/coverage, it's A LOT easier to outspeed/revenge kill than zygarde. the latter has coil or dragon dance, along with extremespeed and a lot of bulk. and it can setup on a lot of the metagame, while nidoking struggles to survive 3 hits, even resisted ones; that makes zygarde more broken than it IMO. even then, it's not guaranteed that zygarde will say BL after its retest, stay tuned, folks!
 
alright, not that I have trouble with nidoking personally, I use cress a lot so its not a big deal, probably the reason I didn't have trouble with zygarde either. just wondering what the big difference was.

Slowbro and Tangrowth deal with phasing well, and cresselia dodges spikes (which are the worst things with phasing) Phys.def florges was a good way to deal with the phasing sets too.
 
Yeah I've stressed how allow he is. He is literally out sped by every offensive Mon in the tier bar mega ampharos and nidoqueen, which aren't even really offensive. He can skin and debone walls but he is far too slow.
 
Ununhexium said:
Yeah I've stressed how allow he is. He is literally out sped by every offensive Mon in the tier bar mega ampharos and nidoqueen, which aren't even really offensive. He can skin and debone walls but he is far too slow.
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I want too point out something here which you've got totally wrong. Nidoqueen is basically a tank with more power than Nidoking, because most Nidoking runs Timid. Nidoqueen doesn't need this because it's much bulkier and can therefore accept too run max satk on most off it's sets, this makes it stronger than Nidoking, and was also one off the main reasons it was used more than Nidoking. Also how can you even compare Nidoking's speed tier vs Mega Ampharos speed tier lol, it isn't even comparable, and also base 85 Speed is not to shabby, but yes it could wish both more power and speed, but what makes Nidoking so good is it's amazing coverage, and good offensive typing.

I would also like too start an discussion about Crobat which ive been using alot lately, and I have to say it's amazing. It beats Calm Mind Suicune without Sleep Talk, and can easely wear it down if it has Sleep Talk for other members to ko it. Just by using Super Fang, this move is incredible on Crobat as it can work as an incredible wallbreaker wearing down pokemon it otherwise can't even touch, but that isn't it's only purpose. Crobat also has an amazing typing in Poison/Flying and sports amazing speed + Roost, it also has Defog which is by far one the most appreciated moves in the meta by now. Crobat might seem weak at first, but just because off it's amazing speed you can always run max atk, tho Jolly nature will always be required to outspeed base 115's, but believe me, Brave Bird + Super Fang is an amazing combination, and I just find Crobat too work incredibly well atm.
 
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Bluwing said:
I want too point out something here which you've got totally wrong. Nidoqueen is basically a tank with more power than Nidoking, because most Nidoking runs Timid. Nidoqueen doesn't need this because it's much bulkier and can therefore accept too run max satk on most off it's sets, this makes it stronger than Nidoking, and was also one off the main reasons it was used more than Nidoking. Also how can you even compare Nidoking's speed tier vs Mega Ampharos speed tier lol, it isn't even comparable, and also base 85 Speed is not to shabby, but yes it could wish both more power and speed, but what makes Nidoking so good is it's amazing coverage, and good offensive typing.

I would also like too start an discussion about Crobat which ive been using alot lately, and I have to say it's amazing. It beats Calm Mind Suicune without Sleep Talk, and can easely wear it down if it has Sleep Talk for other members to ko it. Just by using Super Fang, this move is incredible on Crobat as it can work as an incredible wallbreaker wearing down pokemon it otherwise can't even touch, but that isn't it's only purpose. Crobat also has an amazing typing in Poison/Flying and sports amazing speed + Roost, it also has Defog which is by far one the most appreciated moves in the meta by now. Crobat might seem weak at first, but just because off it's amazing speed you can always run max atk, tho Jolly nature will always be required to outspeed base 115's, but believe me, Brave Bird + Super Fang is an amazing combination, and I just find Crobat too work incredibly well atm.
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Okay maybe I misworded. I know nidoqueen is offensive but it can also run a defensive set very well. I brought up mega ampharos because it is offensive but also has a bulky set. I was merely pointing out that it is slow as balls.
 
Ununhexium said:
Okay maybe I misworded. I know nidoqueen is offensive but it can also run a defensive set very well. I brought up mega ampharos because it is offensive but also has a bulky set. I was merely pointing out that it is slow as balls.
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Um, still not all that comparable when Mega-Ampharos is needing Speed investment just to outspeed fucking Hippowdon. Yes, it's outsped by Hippowdon if both run no Speed investment, and Hippowdon is recognized as one of the slowest Pokemon in existence. Base 45 is way slower than base 76. Nidoqueen is still outspeeding stuff like Florges, Umbreon, Porygon2, and some less common defensive mons like Swampert and Sableye. So, the Speed stats of Mega-Ampharos and Nidoqueen aren't close to being comparable. Sure, they may fill similar roles, but their typings are very different and their base Speed makes them play differently a bit as well. Mega-Ampharos is a slow, bulky pivot thanks to Volt Switch and base 45 Speed. Nidoqueen is a wallbreaker thanks to Sheer Force and base 76 Speed, which is enough to outpace most walls it targets.
 
Nitpick: Sableye's lack of speed is hardly a point of contention when it's using Prankster 99 turns out of 100. Might want a different example, like Mega Aggron.
 
Not to switch topics, but does anyone know what the council is leaning towards in terms of Klefki? I feel like without SwagPlay it has become more bearable, although still annoying. It can be overpowered by many UU threats such as Nidoking, Nidoqueen, and a few others. Overall it is still annoying because of Prankster + great defensive typing, but I feel it is ok in UU and to be honest I have seen little use of it as well.

Some calcs:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Klefki through Light Screen: 208-247 (65.4 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Klefki through Light Screen: 212-251 (66.6 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Klefki through Light Screen: 213-252 (66.9 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-H Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Klefki through Light Screen: 339-399 (106.6 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Nightmare Vampire , well, considering the timetable for the Weavile test, I would imagine we'll hear something tomorrow or early next week about the status of Klefki. It will have been 12 days since the start of Klefki's retest tomorrow and Weavile took about 11 days. I don't think the council would need more than two weeks to have a firm opinion on Klefki unless a couple of the council members are really on the fence about it.
 
One thing I've been experimenting with as a result of the Dark Horse Project is something that honestly I'm going to say is criminally underused: Bold Aromatisse

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Aromatisse @ Leftovers
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast
- Aromatherapy

Come on guys. Florges isn't the only Fairy-type in the tier. Did we forget that Fairy's resistances are much more suited to walling physical attackers? You're looking at the sturdiest thing that can take on both of Heracross's STABs and KO it right back (sorry Gligar, Aerial Ace sucks). This thing also eats up Knock Offs from Mega-Absol, Krookodile, Mienshao, and Machamp. It pairs well with Slowbro, as both Bug- and Dark-type physical attacks just pierce right through his Psychic-typing, and Aromatherapy cures the burns and poisons Slowbro hates (and unfortunately, is often hit with). In return, Slowbro resists the V-creates, Sacred Fires, and Flare Blitzes that blaze through Aromatisse's slightly-above-average bulk, which is important as physical Fire-types easily switch into Moonblast. Similarly, Poison-types switching into Aromatisse are taken out by Slowbro's Psychic/Psyshock. Slowbro also takes Iron Heads from Cobalion and Jirachi as well as Heavy Slams from Mega-Aggron looking to flatten Aromatisse to bits. Gyro Ball doesn't even work on Aromatisse, as it's way too slow to be affected. Due to actually having a half-decent ability, even "Stallbreaker" Mew can't stop it from Wish Passing, as Aroma Veil makes Taunt fail. Although good players will probably already know about this, while laddering, a lot of UU players in particular are unaware of her ability. Also one last thing to mention is the importance of Moonblast, which like Florges, is a very strong STAB at your disposal. However, PDef Aromatisse actually lures in special attackers to muscle past it, making the Moonblast proc much more potent.

Really... I cannot stress how much untapped potential there is in the RU tier. Aromatisse isn't even ranked on XY Viability rankings, despite having such a strong niche. More people should really take a stab at some Dark Horses. You might surprise yourself.

252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Florges: 215-253 (59.7 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 144-169 (40 - 46.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 138-163 (33.9 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
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Aroma does do a good duet with slowbro but would probably like Cresselia as a partner better.

The main reason being nidoking. p.def Cresselia can deal with most of the things slowbro is for and can still take a sludge wave from nidoking no problem.
it also does not get stung by victinis bolt strike like slowbro would.

Cresselia can also add to the support by using screens, trick room or being a dedicated staller. Running a double physically defensive core might seem like a bad idea but if blissey drops and assuming she not banned for those giant wishes, you can call the tri-core virtually break proof. Not to mention all the other things that have made special attack useless unless you're nidoking this gen, assault vest, special power nerf, hidden power nerf.

To go on a mini-tangent, they really were not kind to it. I wonder what the giant balance problem was, most of the balance issues come from set up sweepers, and due swords dances distribution, they're physical threats most of the time. Not to mention physical attacks range much higher than special attacks, often going over 100 BP and still having 100% accuracy but suffering things like recoil or stat drops, to get that high with special you have to risk a miss, which is much worse IMO. But I guess we're all here due to Game Freaks amazing balancing abilities aren't we.
 
Shiny Minun said:
Aroma does do a good duet with slowbro but would probably like Cresselia as a partner better.

The main reason being nidoking. p.def Cresselia can deal with most of the things slowbro is for and can still take a sludge wave from nidoking no problem.
it also does not get stung by victinis bolt strike like slowbro would.

Cresselia can also add to the support by using screens, trick room or being a dedicated staller. Running a double physically defensive core might seem like a bad idea but if blissey drops and assuming she not banned for those giant wishes, you can call the tri-core virtually break proof. Not to mention all the other things that have made special attack useless unless you're nidoking this gen, assault vest, special power nerf, hidden power nerf.

To go on a mini-tangent, they really were not kind to it. I wonder what the giant balance problem was, most of the balance issues come from set up sweepers, and due swords dances distribution, they're physical threats most of the time. Not to mention physical attacks range much higher than special attacks, often going over 100 BP and still having 100% accuracy but suffering things like recoil or stat drops, to get that high with special you have to risk a miss, which is much worse IMO. But I guess we're all here due to Game Freaks amazing balancing abilities aren't we.
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Was actually using AV Slowking since it was also part of the Dark Horse project, which does a really good job of forcing out Nidoking and Nidoqueen while still eating Flare Blitzes as long as they're not Choice Banded. Countering Fire-types is too important in this tier imo. Pretty much any Poke you put on your team you have to stop and think "Which Fire-types am I letting set up if I use this?"
 
I find Aromatisse much better than mixed wall Florges on my stall teams 100% of the time. Fairy type is just a better typing for a physical wall than special wall in the tier seing some of the best physical attackers are Mienshao, Heracross, Krookodile while specially defensive fairy types are prone to arguably the most dangerous wallbreakers in the tier, Nidoking(queen). Aromatisse has far better physical bulk than Florges, allowing it to not fall immediately to Heracross' wallbreaking sets, which are the biggest threat to stall atm. Florges has an advantage of being able to wall some special attackers even with minimal investment, but I find Aromatisse more anti-meta. Granbull has more physical bulk with Intimidate calculated, but its lack of recovery really sucks and usually need to run Rest as Wishpassing is unreliable. Beating common stallbreakers like Mew, Sableye is also incredible on stall teams as they would otherwise be hard for stall teams to handle.
 
I'll just ask for the record to state that I've been using Bold Aromatisse since before UU was born. Aroma / Ice Beam Slowbro / Ass Vest Snorlax / Nidoqueen / Mega Crocross / Defog Zapdos were once the champions among the OU mons :o

But yea, Aroma is ultimately better for Stall if only because of its ability, since it isn't totally wrecked by Stallbreaker Mew / annoyed by Sableye. Florges is more similar to Blissey in that it's kind of a catchall for special mons (bar Nidos obviously), while Aroma has better physical bulk and pairs up well with Slowbro since it resists the stuff that can hurt bro (except Honch; fuck Honch), and although you're worse off against special attackers you have 4 slots to cover those—again, assuming stall. Aroma is definitely not terrible against special attackers, but it's not comparable with Florges at all.

Oh, also bigger Wishes can sometimes make a difference :o I still maintain that the only really important perk is Aroma Veil, tho.
 
You guys totally forgot the other niche Aromatisse has over Florges outside of being a dedicated Fairy physical wall, lower speed and untauntable makes her better than Florges in TR - in fact, it is currently one of the if not the only most reliable TR setter in EVERY tier she is in. She has above decent bulk, has a wide enough movepool and decent SpA to not be a sitting duck against most set up sweepers. Her ability blocking Taunt is nice, Fairy typing is a blessing as things with Mold Breaker + Taunt are usually weak to Fairy and actually don't carry Taunt anyway. Moreover she is one of the few TR setters that aren't weak to Knock Off meaning she isn't fucked over as much such as Reun, who is weak to Dark, or P2 who relies on its item for the most part, meaning she can sponge Knock Off for the team. Overall she is a pretty decent mon and has a good niche in the metagame
 
gg kokoloko deleting my post for mentioning blissey even though it was a reference to my last post to wear I said aroma/cress/blissey would make a great wall core if she drops to UU

Although I'd say the trio would work with things like Arcanine, snorlax or whatever else you can find that has respectable bulk, possible recovery move and has an okay relationship with steel, ghost and poison.
 
Mahmudkipz said:
You guys totally forgot the other niche Aromatisse has over Florges outside of being a dedicated Fairy physical wall, lower speed and untauntable makes her better than Florges in TR - in fact, it is currently one of the if not the only most reliable TR setter in EVERY tier she is in. She has above decent bulk, has a wide enough movepool and decent SpA to not be a sitting duck against most set up sweepers. Her ability blocking Taunt is nice, Fairy typing is a blessing as things with Mold Breaker + Taunt are usually weak to Fairy and actually don't carry Taunt anyway. Moreover she is one of the few TR setters that aren't weak to Knock Off meaning she isn't fucked over as much such as Reun, who is weak to Dark, or P2 who relies on its item for the most part, meaning she can sponge Knock Off for the team. Overall she is a pretty decent mon and has a good niche in the metagame
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tbh the mold breakers in the game are all either OU/BL (Haxorus and friends) or have low viability in UU (Pangoro, Druddigon). However, fairy is always nice to have as a defensively good typing.
 
Also worth noting: Pangoro and Druddigon are slow as shit so if they want to TRY to Taunt you (do they get Taunt?) they're looking at getting slapped in the grill with STAB SE Moonblast.
 
If Blissey falls in UU then Aromatisse has a good chance to start getting more attention, since Florges won't be needed anymore as an all-purpose special wall.
And am I the only one who thinks Aromatisse is the best Trick Room user in the game? Unlike most other TR users she resists dark and fighting rather than being weak to, and Aroma Veil makes her immune to Taunt.
 
Best Trick Room supporter, perhaps, but Reuniclus still, I believe, holds the title of best general Trick Roomer. He's almost unique among abusers in that he can also set it (unlike Escavalier or Rhyperior), while he has a much better chance of sweeping on his own (as opposed to Slowbro or P2, who can clean weakened teams but struggle against even moderately healthy ones.
 
alright the last klefki votes are in and we have a controversial one.

7 votes for UU
5 for BL

as stated in this thread, a supermajority vote of 2/3 (8/12) is needed to keep a pokemon in uu, which is unfortunate because i kind of wanted the additional hydreigon and staraptor check for when we test them (despite what i voted).

if you want reasoning as to why a supermajority is required to keep a pokemon uu, it's in the thread. if you want reasoning as to why an unsure member of the senate should vote BL, it's also in the thread.

anyway, the next re-test will be hydreigon. it should be on the ladder soon.

that is all.
 
Im excited for hydreigon to be back! On paper it has the coverage and stats to be uncounterable, but it has plenty of checks in scarf hera, shao, darmanitan with the powerful fighting moves. Florges stops most sets easily due to immunity tobdragon and dark resist.

But, on that note, sd toxicroak is a fantastic partner for hydreigon to get rid of those pesky fairys..
 
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