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np: XY UU Stage 1 - Reload [Salamence: BL | Next: DROPS!!!]

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Don't mean to stray away from Hydreigon as it is currently in testing (fairly clearly UU imo, for what that's worth) but I do want to share something:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-114481610 - so, ignoring the extreme amount of hax I suffered through this match, there is an offensive core I want to talk about. Iirc, I first saw Limitless using this core on the ladder a while ago, and finally decided to use it for myself while adapting the idea into a team that fit a little bit better with my playstyle. Megadoom, Mienshao, and Heracross can just put so much pressure on the opposing team. With a Scarf, Mienshao is outpacing just about every relevant offensive threat in UU, while Heracross can break past most walls with a Choice Band equipped. And then there's Mega-Houndoom, quite possibly the best Mega in the tier right now. The Flame Charge set is so flexible. Even without an NP boost, it still nearly clutched me the match. While it can sort of struggle with coming in, don't forget that it has Flash Fire before Mega Evolving. I've had quite a few matches where switching into a Choiced Fire-type move just essentially won the game as I didn't need the boost from NP anymore. It helps that Roserade and Heracross will usually force Scarf Fire-types to come in. Here's the core in a bit more detail:

Limitless (Houndoom) (M) @ Houndoominite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Flame Charge

CrossHorn (Heracross) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Megahorn
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge

FlexCat (Mienshao) (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Aerial Ace

About the only reason I have Aerial Ace on Shao is because I'm so pathetically weak to Scarf Hera with this team otherwise.
 
ok, so looking at eonx's core, it seems very solid, and there's not much i can say about it, but looking at the team, ive noticed something that's pretty much in a lot of /good/ teams lately, which is this: is it worth it having a flying weakness in offensive teams? i mean sure, its not very common in uu, but the most common user of it is also one of the best offensive mons in the entire fucking tier, who can rip through practically any team with very little support (its honchkrow if that wasn't obvious enough).
 
Bouffalant said:
ok, so looking at eonx's core, it seems very solid, and there's not much i can say about it, but looking at the team, ive noticed something that's pretty much in a lot of /good/ teams lately, which is this: is it worth it having a flying weakness in offensive teams? i mean sure, its not very common in uu, but the most common user of it is also one of the best offensive mons in the entire fucking tier, who can rip through practically any team with very little support (its honchkrow if that wasn't obvious enough).
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Scarfed Mienshao outspeeds and OHKO Krow. If you are so worried about it just add a sleep talk Curse Aggron who completely shits on Krow
 
Mahmudkipz said:
Scarfed Mienshao outspeeds and OHKO Krow. If you are so worried about it just add a sleep talk Curse Aggron who completely shits on Krow
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Mienshao outspeeds Krow anyways. I think Heracross and Houndoom Mega do too (I might be wrong about Heracross).
 
Bouffalant said:
ok, so looking at eonx's core, it seems very solid, and there's not much i can say about it, but looking at the team, ive noticed something that's pretty much in a lot of /good/ teams lately, which is this: is it worth it having a flying weakness in offensive teams? i mean sure, its not very common in uu, but the most common user of it is also one of the best offensive mons in the entire fucking tier, who can rip through practically any team with very little support (its honchkrow if that wasn't obvious enough).
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While I agree that Krow is great right now, the team I have has plenty of ways around it depending on the variant. Without a Scarf, Krow is outsped by Hera, Shao, and MegaDoom. All 3 also resist Sucker Punch, so Krow can't just use it to take them out. While it may seem like Roserade is quite vulnerable to Krow due to low physical bulk and lack of a Sucker Punch resistance, she has Sleep Powder to immediately screw Honchkrow if it tries to start a Moxie sweep on Rose. Really, the only Pokemon on the team I used in that replay that can have a lot of issues with Krow is Slowbro, whom I actually have Ice Beam on just to keep it from getting easy access to battle. If Krow is Scarf, the move it uses determines the answer. Shao outspeeds anyway, but being locked on Sucker Punch means Cross, Rose, and MegaDoom can stop it.

Basically, Honchkrow can devastate the many balance and stall teams around in UU since its STAB combination crushes many common defensive cores, but Krow's low Speed (for an offensive mon) betrays it against offensive teams as it will have few chances to sweep so long as a faster Dark-type resist is around.
 
Mega Manectric outspeeds +1 Honchkrow, weakens it with Intimidate, and obviously OHKOs with Thunderbolt or Volt Switch. It's obviously not taking a boosted Sucker Punch, but if you switch in before it gets a Moxie boost you can scare it off.
 
So with hydreigon staying, magnezone is the next retest. It'll be nice to have its typing and ability to throw around powerful volt switches but we'll see if that makes it a bit too much for the current UU meta. Does anyone think that the hydra retest will have any effect on the outcome of magnezone?
 
Royalty said:
So with hydreigon staying, magnezone is the next retest. It'll be nice to have its typing and ability to throw around powerful volt switches but we'll see if that makes it a bit too much for the current UU meta. Does anyone think that the hydra retest will have any effect on the outcome of magnezone?
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If anything, the Magnezone retest will have an effect on the use of hydreigon - you'll probably see a lot of people eschewing fire blast for earth power.

I suppose Magnezone is still quite a nice offensive check to Hydra compared to other slow volt switchers like ampharos, who get slaughtered by a meteor, but I don't think hydra's presence is polarizing enough to make Magnezone's status as a risky check to it any more appealing than it already is.
 
Magnezone is a horrifying wallbreaker with Analytic specs set of Volt Switch, HP Grass, T.bolt and Flash Cannon. Thanks to its awesome typing and bulk, Magnezone can easily switch into walls like Florges and Forretress. Most of the tier are outright OHKO'd by all analytic boosted attacks, making switchins limited. Only few things counter it, namely Mega Ampharous, certain Rotom forms and Mag itself, but without HP Ground Amphy can't do much back and Magnezone's Volt Switch will slowly dent it until it gets in Flash Cannon range. Florges is nailed with Flash Cannon, Water/Grounds are absolutely mutilated by Specs Analytic boosted HP Grass, even Sp.Def Hippowdon can be 2HKO'd by either Flash Cannon or HP Grass after the first analytic booated hit. It can also run Magnet Pull sets if you are into Bird or Dragon spam trapping Steel types and KO them with HP Fire, but let's be honest we only have Fire spam :p

It does however has its limits. It is quite hard to switch it in despite its bulk and plethora resists due to its 4x weakness to Ground. Its speed is also very low at base 60 meaning that it can easily be revenged and forced out. Choiced sets are easily read by Protect on Florges and Umbreon. Sometimes a misprediction with Mag can also lose all your momentum, such as Volt Switching on an incoming Manectric. That being said, it is still a very potent threat that teams need to prepare for.
 
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You do realize that Mega Ampharos typically carries Focus Blast, right? Moreover, you'd need three Analytic-boosted Flash Cannons to 3HKO (everything else just does paltry amounts of damage), and if you are landing that many Analytic-boosted Flash Cannons, I feel like Ampharos will be able to squeeze in a Focus Blast which smokes Magnezone.
 
Lord of Bays said:
You do realize that Mega Ampharos typically carries Focus Blast, right? Moreover, you'd need three Analytic-boosted Flash Cannons to 3HKO (everything else just does paltry amounts of damage), and if you are landing that many Analytic-boosted Flash Cannons, I feel like Ampharos will be able to squeeze in a Focus Blast which smokes Magnezone.
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Well analytic relies on predicting the switch in so being hit by focus blast is unlikely to occur, assuming you are only aiming to maximize said ability. Otherwise, after enough chip damage Magnezone is at an advantage of striking first due to a higher base speed.
 
The problem still lies in the fact that, without HP Ice, you are just barely scraping that 3HKO, you have to always predict the switch-in with Flash Cannon, and then IMMEDIATELY switch out, which gives Mega Ampharos the opportunity to Volt Switch and steal momentum. Alternately, if Mega Ampharos is using a RestTalk set you simply can't wear it down with Magnezone.

I'm not trying to downplay Magnezone, but Mega Ampharos is a very cold hard stop if you aren't packing HP Ice, at which point damn near every Water/Ground becomes a counter.
 
Yeah, Grass is always better than Ice, due to the fact that nearly everything relevant that HP Ice hits that Flash Cannon hits harder gets fucked by an Analytic Flash Cannon. I'll have to play test zone some more before i get a clear view on it.
 
I am assuming this is the only Magnezone's possibly broken set :
Magnezone @ Choice Specs
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Grass]
Without specs, let's say something like AV patching it's weaker bulk, it lacks enough firepower to nuke and thus fails to do it's job.The trapper set is also viable, especially if teamed with Straptor or any strong dragon, but I assume it isn't possibly broken yet(?)
Having HP Grass or Ice lets Magnezone choose it's counters but at least one exists in the tier, may it be Swampert or M-Ampharos, but is it enough as the two premier special walls having trouble walling it. Florges is hit by a SE STAB and Umbreon :
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I do want to point out that being choice locked is very restrictive to the Magnezone user as the momentoum grabbing Volt Switch can be hindering upon a ground type switch in or using a weak HP Grass on the non-switched opponent, who in many cases be faster than the slow Magnezone and hit/set-up/support while taking even less damage from the non-Analytic boosted HP Grass. By this I mean it does require some good high level tactical playing using Magnezone.
 
Well, Magnezone is a scary wallbreaker, no doubt about it. It is able to threaten just about every defensive core in the tier with its STAB combination and has next to no safe switch-ins. Mega-Ampharos is the best defensive switch-in that I can think of off the top of my head, and it lacks recovery outside of RestTalk. Specs is definitely the most dangeorus set Zone has, but Assault Vest is another item that can make it difficult to handle. The increase in special bulk makes it quite difficult for special attackers lacking a super effective move to handle it. Remember, Zone has a fairly solid defensive typing and decent bulk to work with. Analytic helps to make AV Magnezone a wallbreaker that's still quite powerful. Between Specs, AV, and a Steel Trapper set, countering Magnezone is next to impossible and a fairly easy Pokemon to fit onto most offensive-minded teams. Whether or not this makes Magnezone too strong for UU remains to be seen, but this is definitely going to be a strong Pokemon during its retest.
 
Lord of Bays said:
The problem still lies in the fact that, without HP Ice, you are just barely scraping that 3HKO, you have to always predict the switch-in with Flash Cannon, and then IMMEDIATELY switch out, which gives Mega Ampharos the opportunity to Volt Switch and steal momentum. Alternately, if Mega Ampharos is using a RestTalk set you simply can't wear it down with Magnezone.

I'm not trying to downplay Magnezone, but Mega Ampharos is a very cold hard stop if you aren't packing HP Ice, at which point damn near every Water/Ground becomes a counter.
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Well obviously rest-talk variants aren't something Magnezone can break through since it is entirely reliant on chip damage built up through predicted switch ins but its lack of recovery outside of rest-talk is a nuisance, unless you have a fairly reliable wish support going on. Regardless, you don't have as much options in having something that could switch in to Magnezone.
 
Ununhexium said:
Mienshao outspeeds Krow anyways. I think Heracross and Houndoom Mega do too (I might be wrong about Heracross).
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Houndoom-M has base 115 speed, Heracross has 85, Honchy has 71. Note that since most Heracross are Scarfed, even if Honchy is scarfed as well Heracross might beat it 1v1 (depends on move set)
 
Royalty said:
So with hydreigon staying, magnezone is the next retest. It'll be nice to have its typing and ability to throw around powerful volt switches but we'll see if that makes it a bit too much for the current UU meta. Does anyone think that the hydra retest will have any effect on the outcome of magnezone?
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49182890.jpg


Anyway, with that image aside, the meta has definitely evolved where a lot of undershadowed Pokemon have come out to be some of the strongest Pokemon out there. Outside of Mega-Ampharos, there really isn't anything that can safely switch into Magnezone. Furthermore, unlike most high-damage output Pokemon, Magnezone has insane bulk and the highest number of resistances in the game iirc, so it's slightly hard to take down.
 
yeah magnezone hits way too hard. The few things that can tank a specs anything are twiddled down with repeated v.switches. with many pokemon like florges and mew who can barely touch the thing, its very easy to score a switch in and deal a quick chunk to anything while switching out. you can use ground types or mega man but specs+anal HP grass pounds them into the ground.

Focus sash Dugtrio is a hard stop for magnezones without air balloons however. But that requires perfect conditions and basically sacrificing the pokemon as anything but volt switch will wreck you and magnezone is not going to be taking risks with Dugtrio around.

I personally think it is too strong since only really mega ampharos deals with it and that is a stretch as with dragons slowly coming back into the tier, magnezone has more reason to run HP ice. And this variant leaves a huge mark on mega ampharos, 2HKOing any set that isn't completely special defense invested.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 190-224 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
(on a switch in, which counts analytic, even though magnezone is faster.)
 
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What about av snorlax? Its 3hko by specs magnezone t bolt

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 150-177 (32.5 - 38.3%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO
(150, 151, 153, 154, 157, 159, 160, 162, 163, 165, 168, 169, 171, 172, 174, 177)

Earthquake is a guaranteed ohko on magnezone too
 
I'm somewhat surprised no one's mentioned AV electric types, namely Raikou (aura sphere) and somewhat less viable Ampharos (focus miss) and Eelektross (drain punch / flamethrower). Also, AV magnet pull Zone would work with HP Fire or even HP Ground. They don't have the greatest viability generally, but specifically for countering Zone they work pretty well. Volt absorb Raikou would be even better if it had been released (damn you TrollFreak)

Wall of Calcs:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 117-138 (36.3 - 42.8%) (Rash for aura sphere, hence -SpD nature)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4- SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 117-138 (30.4 - 35.9%)
252+ SpA Raikou Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 192-226 (55.8 - 65.6%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 126-148 (33.6 - 39.5%)
252+ SpA Eelektross Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 204-240 (59.3 - 69.7%)
252+ Atk Eelektross Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 146-174 (42.4 - 50.5%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Ampharos: 88-104 (22.9 - 27%)
252+ SpA Ampharos Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 286-338 (83.1 - 98.2%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Magnezone: 114-135 (33.1 - 39.2%)
252+ SpA Magnezone Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 158-186 (45.9 - 54%)

This also works, for the lols:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Stunfisk: 190-224 (45 - 53%)
252+ SpA Stunfisk Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 508-604 (147.6 - 175.5%)

EDIT: SpD Rotom-H and volt absorb Lanturn would work well (well, if it's not running HP grass)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-H: 108-127 (35.5 - 41.7%)
4 SpA Rotom-H Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 320-378 (93 - 109.8%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Lanturn: 87-103 (19.1 - 22.6%)
252+ SpA Lanturn Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 109-130 (31.6 - 37.7%)
 
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SmallFry25
First off, running Aura Sphere on Raikou is not optimal since it forces it to run a Rash nature (no +Spe nature leaves it speed-tied with Base 100s).

Second, why are you running Assault Vest Ampharos. If you mean MegaAmph, then that's a conceptual error. If it is Assault Vest Normal Amph, then it's highly outclassed by its Mega Forme in terms of bulk.

Finally, Assault Vest does let these aforementioned Pokemon tank hits from Magnezone, but they get worn down very quickly. All of these calcs show that Magnezone can 3HKO every single one of them, so these Assault Vest electrics + Rotom-H + Lanturn have to utilize their switch-ins safely.

Shiny Minun Specs Flash Cannon nukes every relevant Dragon in the tier, so no need for HP Ice.
 
eaglehawk said:
Shiny Minun Specs Flash Cannon nukes every relevant Dragon in the tier, so no need for HP Ice.
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Getting free kills on alleged counters would be desirable, this is why crawdaunt started running Aerial Ace, the few things that could take it's Dual STAB were quickly dismantled by an unexpected AA. there were so few answers for him that this even became standard. Especially factoring that 2 adapt unresistant crabhammers and 2 superpowers do the same damage, and even less on MAggron.

Saying he wont run something to nuke hyper expected switch ins (since what else wants to tank a 1.9x volt switch)

SmallFry25
I don't really thing the list of AV electric types that still take over 20% per volt switch (and don't prevent it) with none of them having solid recovery is really a point against magnezone. Sure you don't get blown away by a volt switch. But with how easy it is to get him in, they need to take as many volt switches as possible.

AV Stunfisk can prevent VS can be dropped with two HP's, Ice or Grass. and magnezone is faster. Once Stunfisk has taken a measly 20% damage (think hazards + no recovery) it can no longer even switch into Magnezone safely.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Stunfisk: 190-224 (45 - 53%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
and then
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Stunfisk: 146-172 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

As eaglehawk said, these will get worn out too quickly and only pose a threat to magnezone very early in the game.
 
Shiny Minun said:
Getting free kills on alleged counters would be desirable, this is why crawdaunt started running Aerial Ace, the few things that could take it's Dual STAB were quickly dismantled by an unexpected AA. there were so few answers for him that this even became standard. Especially factoring that 2 adapt unresistant crabhammers and 2 superpowers do the same damage, and even less on MAggron.

Saying he wont run something to nuke hyper expected switch ins (since what else wants to tank a 1.9x volt switch)

SmallFry25
I don't really thing the list of AV electric types that still take over 20% per volt switch (and don't prevent it) with none of them having solid recovery is really a point against magnezone. Sure you don't get blown away by a volt switch. But with how easy it is to get him in, they need to take as many volt switches as possible.

AV Stunfisk can prevent VS can be dropped with two HP's, Ice or Grass. and magnezone is faster. Once Stunfisk has taken a measly 20% damage (think hazards + no recovery) it can no longer even switch into Magnezone safely.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Stunfisk: 190-224 (45 - 53%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
and then
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Stunfisk: 146-172 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

As eaglehawk said, these will get worn out too quickly and only pose a threat to magnezone very early in the game.
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I stopped reading when I saw the tier was UU and the Pokemon was Stunfisk.
 
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