Darmanitan is outspeed by two common scarfers in victini and mienshao (and soon hydreigon), its also vulnerable to honchrow's sucker punch and weak to stealth rock while being vulnerable to all other hazards, not to mention losing health everytime it uses its main attack. Saying it cant be touched is ridiculous, killing darmanitan is trivial and it will often happen by its own hands. Darmanitan doesnt sweep teams, it just doesnt. It doesnt have any way to last through the match with enough health to actually clean up unless you never use it early and mid game which is stupid as darmanitan can check several dangerous threats with a choice scarf. That said i agree that it should go A rank (but i dont agree with victini for S).
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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Limitless
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You misunderstand, I am saying its bulk doesn't come into play in most cases because, like you said, it ends up dying to its own recoil, or sacrificing itself for a huge hit while taking a hit.
And I'm not sure if I said sweep teams, but I am pretty certain I said Darm is more of a late-game cleaner...
And I'm not sure if I said sweep teams, but I am pretty certain I said Darm is more of a late-game cleaner...
Its frailty comes into play because it means it can never afford to take any remotely strong hit. This forces it to switch out a lot more then other pokemon even if its at 100% health, which puts pressure in your teammates to tank the numerous hits darmanitan cant while making you lose momentum. Its not a good cleaner/sweeper because it will never be healthy enough to do so late game due to having used flare blitz early and possible sr damage stacking, unlike stuff like mienshao and flygon that can just use their powerful stab moves regardless of health.
I don't know if it's fair to say Darm will never be healthy enough to late game clean. In general, if you are assuming Darm is at low health, it is only fair that the enemy has very weak/few Mons, no? So Darm wouldn't be taking as much recoil. I mean, you could say that, in theory, that all of Darm's counters are gone at the end, and that would be just as viable as saying Darm will never have enough health to do late game damage. And using HJK isn't exactly the best comparison, because as we know, it has 50 accuracy.
I am fine with Darm staying A ranked, I am talking about the Pro's of Victini. If we both agree on Darm being A ranked for different reasons, as long as it stays A ranked, why does it matter?
I am fine with Darm staying A ranked, I am talking about the Pro's of Victini. If we both agree on Darm being A ranked for different reasons, as long as it stays A ranked, why does it matter?
I'm curious as to what rank you think Victini should be, and why? Because I feel like Victini is S-ranked material, but then again, I thought Suicine was too, but it is A rank now, so I am willing to hear reasons as to why it should fall.
I dont think it should change ranks because its not metagame defining enough for S as it doesnt do anything unique. Its a fire type nuke, not much different than darmanitan, entei and arcanine, it just happens to be better than them due to its movepool but even if it didnt exist the meta would still have to prepare for fire types in general because theyre so common.
Victini is better than Darmanitan because Bolt Strike, going mixed and Trick allows it to cripple or beat the counters to it's standard set. However, it certainly isn't S-Rank material. Spamming V-Create is just asking for Honchkrow to come in and get a free moxie boost. I don't think any poke whose best set is a choiced item can be considered S rank, especially one weak to stealth rock.
Darm's shit bulk does come into play because it can't eat up neutral priority like Entei's Extremespeed like Victini can.
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 132-156 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 213-251 (60.6 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's extremely significant. It basically means that after SR and sacking one damaged/useless poke to a Flare Blitz, ESpeed is a revenge. Vs. Victini, it's hardly even a 2HKO. The same goes for less common priority like Fake Out, mach punch, etc.
Like I discussed previously, unless you've already hit V-Create twice, it's not asking for Honchkrow to come in and get a "free" moxie boost, it's asking Honchkrow to come in and risk its life in a 50/50 against something that's already hit something super hard. Also, I don't know what having one's "best" set be a choiced item (which is dubious to start with) has to do with viability, at all.
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 132-156 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 213-251 (60.6 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's extremely significant. It basically means that after SR and sacking one damaged/useless poke to a Flare Blitz, ESpeed is a revenge. Vs. Victini, it's hardly even a 2HKO. The same goes for less common priority like Fake Out, mach punch, etc.
Like I discussed previously, unless you've already hit V-Create twice, it's not asking for Honchkrow to come in and get a "free" moxie boost, it's asking Honchkrow to come in and risk its life in a 50/50 against something that's already hit something super hard. Also, I don't know what having one's "best" set be a choiced item (which is dubious to start with) has to do with viability, at all.
First off it's very plausible that Victini has to V-Create twice to get kill. But even if it doesn't, and it's not scarf, 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Pursuit vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Victini: 273-322 (79.8 - 94.1%). So if it's not scarf, and has taken prior damage, it's very likely that Honchkrow can get a free boost. If it's scarf, and you can play it safe and go Sucker Punch. You say it's 50/50 for Honchkrow risking it's life to kill Victini, but it's same for Victini to kill Honchkrow. Saying that a choice item was it's best item is probably incorrect of me, but my point is something that is weak to stealth rock and is most often choiced isn't S rank viable. It doesn't have to with viability in general but I think it prevents it from reaching the qualifications for S rank.
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I feel that Victini is the one SR-weak Pokemon in UU that can be S-rank. As I said previously, I feel that both Tini and Darm should stay at A+ for different reasons, but that Victini was better than Darmanitan. To clarify on this, I am a fair bit on the fence with Tini, but leaning A+ rank if only due to the fact that it has an unfortunate set of weaknesses and a STAB move that can hold it back at times, despite the extreme power. As I said, Victini is versatile. Capable of going Band, Scarf, Mixed, Physical LO, Specs, and even Special LO makes it incredibly difficult to counter at first. While each set does have its share of issues, if you guess wrong, you can very easily lose something to Victini. Ok, Slowbro just took that V-create like a champ. But what if it happens to be carrying Grass Knot / Thunder(bolt)? Well, unless you predict that, Slowbro is out. So, you guessed correctly on a special attack and had Florges come in to take it. That's great, but how can you know it isn't mixed and packing V-create?
So, while I do feel the SR weakness and unfortunate set of weaknesses granted by Victini's typing is just enough to hold it back from S-rank imo, I can easily see why some would argue for it to be S-rank, and I can't fully disagree with it considering how well Victini is capable of performing against virtually any team.
So, while I do feel the SR weakness and unfortunate set of weaknesses granted by Victini's typing is just enough to hold it back from S-rank imo, I can easily see why some would argue for it to be S-rank, and I can't fully disagree with it considering how well Victini is capable of performing against virtually any team.
I agree. I just want to point out that megadoom is S rank and fire type.
Btw, what does S even stand for? Super? We have a super mega forme I guess.
Btw, what does S even stand for? Super? We have a super mega forme I guess.
S doesn't really stand for anything, in the same way A, B, C, and D don't really stand for anything. S rank was created in Japanese video games in order to make more achievement.
Source: http://www.giantbomb.com/s-rank/3015-2962/
On topic, there's one Victini set that was mentioned previously very briefly and went under the radar, but is actually fucking amazing. Before you all jump on the "wtf kitten stop posing stupid shitty gimmicks that don't ever work" train, just take a moment to look at this awesomeness.
Victini @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
IVs: 0 Spd
Brave Nature
- V-Create
- Trick Room
- Bolt Strike
- Grass Knot
With minned speed, Victini reaches 184 before any V-Create "boosts". This means that it'll be "outspeeding" base 75s in Trick Room - in other words, if it can set up on anything base 75 or above, it's basically set. Lets look at some attacks coming from pokes above base 75 that will trigger Weakness Policy.
252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Victini: 338-398 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Victini: 332-392 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Victini: 318-374 (78.7 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Victini: 260-308 (64.3 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mew Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Victini: 140-166 (34.6 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Victini: 306-360 (75.7 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Victini: 248-292 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Victini: 276-326 (68.3 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Victini: 278-330 (68.8 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Victini: 278-328 (68.8 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Victini: 340-400 (84.1 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Victini: 322-380 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Victini: 322-382 (79.7 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Shaymin Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Victini: 164-194 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Unlike most relatively gimmicky WP shit, Victini can tank some fucking hits. These are some of the strongest attacks in the entire tier - some of them STAB, and all of them super effective, and yet Victini can take them, get +2/+2, Trick Room to be faster than the entire team, and proceed to absolutely fucking wreck.
I don't want to mislead you guys, it's not like you can only set up on faster threats. There are plenty of slower but weaker threats that this strategy works on similarly, it's just on a case-by-case basis. It's also worth noting that this Victini loves Sticky Web, as it allows it to set up easily on stuff like Swampert.
This post is partly to inform you guys of a fucking amazing possibility to use with Victini that can wreck face, and to contend that it should be considered in its viability, but it's also to just show how a set that would normally be so gimmicky can work wonders on a diverse poke like Victini. When you have access to very respectable bulk and a diverse support movepool, the possibilities really are endless.
God I'm scared of calling this set viable but its cool as shit and actually looks like a lot of fun.
Derped on Megadoom. Sue me.
Kitten Milk , while I do like the fact that this uses a unique aspect about Victini (its bulk and the Speed-lowering effect of V-create) my problem with it is the fact that it is fairly hard to setup TR and get the 1st V-create off to make yourself slower than most of the metagame. While this is possible if you keep Rocks off the field, it can be challenging to do. Nevertheless, it is another way to use Victini that isn't a complete gimmick worth absolute shit. Opportunity cost just seems too much, but hey, that's just me.
well umbreon certainly has an easier time walling physical attackers, but florges has a better type and SDef. umbreon also has an easier time dealing with the nidos, as focus blast isnt common from what ive seen. I personally thing that they are okay where they are
Florges is literally the face of consistency. It has been one of the premier walls in the tier ever since day 1 and has constantly topped the usage stats at #2 and #1. It walls a significant portion of the metagame in heracross, mienshao, ampharos, shaymin (barring hax obv), raikou, blastoise, starmie, kyurem, noivern, hydreigon and a bunch of lesser things. Its mere existence forces both nidos to include sludge wave in their standard sets something that would normally just be a niche option. The support it brings with wish and heal bell is amazing and makes florges a staple on stall teams. You just cant go wrong with florges, its really that good. That said i think it should go to S rank.
S Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.
As one can see, florges easily fills these requirements by walling dozens of common and dangerous threats with little effort thanks to its excellent typing and massive special bulk and access to wish+heal bell combo allows it to support its entire team. Florges main flaw is its terrible physical bulk, however florges resistance to fighting and bug and its immunity to dragon allows it to take on some physical attackers despite its poor stat.
S Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.
As one can see, florges easily fills these requirements by walling dozens of common and dangerous threats with little effort thanks to its excellent typing and massive special bulk and access to wish+heal bell combo allows it to support its entire team. Florges main flaw is its terrible physical bulk, however florges resistance to fighting and bug and its immunity to dragon allows it to take on some physical attackers despite its poor stat.
A+ ranked seems pretty fine for the two of them. They both perform one role very well, and other roles somewhat okay (Scarf florges, shout out to my boy dmt), but other than that, they are standard staple members of most UU teams. It is definitely a defensive threat to most teams, but then again, so is CroCune to teams that don't have an answer. The only issue I find with Umbreon and Florges is that it is terrible set up bait for CroCune, SD Toxicroak, and pokes of that sort. Both have great typings actually, but I do not see them being S-ranked material.
Florges, more so than Umbreon, have definitely shaped the meta to what it is. It is probably the reason why Snorlax has gone down in usage, and that Nidoking/Queen have shot up, but I do not think that is a good enough reason for it being S ranked.
Florges is beaten by common mons, such as Crocune. The issue isn't that Florges can be beaten, but it can be beaten by common mon's in general, and that a player is not forced to run obscure threats to counter. In the same sense Toxicroak is used because of the popularity of CroCune and other water types, Toxicroak is a good pokemon on its own. Likewise, a team containing Darm/Victini will be able to beat Florges in most cases.
I understand that there are other pokemon to support florges, but the argument can be made that other poke's on the other team are able to support their strong fire types.
I think the fact that Florges is beaten by a lot of commonly used Mon's merits that is should not be S ranked. However, it should be A+ ranked because these pokemon are used partly due to the immense popularity of Florges.
The same can be said for Umbr, though I find Florges to be better. I am too lazy to make an argument for Umbr being A, but I definitely think Florges should be A+, but not S.
Florges, more so than Umbreon, have definitely shaped the meta to what it is. It is probably the reason why Snorlax has gone down in usage, and that Nidoking/Queen have shot up, but I do not think that is a good enough reason for it being S ranked.
Florges is beaten by common mons, such as Crocune. The issue isn't that Florges can be beaten, but it can be beaten by common mon's in general, and that a player is not forced to run obscure threats to counter. In the same sense Toxicroak is used because of the popularity of CroCune and other water types, Toxicroak is a good pokemon on its own. Likewise, a team containing Darm/Victini will be able to beat Florges in most cases.
I understand that there are other pokemon to support florges, but the argument can be made that other poke's on the other team are able to support their strong fire types.
I think the fact that Florges is beaten by a lot of commonly used Mon's merits that is should not be S ranked. However, it should be A+ ranked because these pokemon are used partly due to the immense popularity of Florges.
The same can be said for Umbr, though I find Florges to be better. I am too lazy to make an argument for Umbr being A, but I definitely think Florges should be A+, but not S.
Man I really still do think Victini is S-rank, but I'll let it go for a couple weeks until I come out with another painfully long ramblepost about the second coming of Victini. I'm still not exactly satisfied with the explanation, given that Slowbro - if anything - has gotten a nerf from Gen 5 to Gen 6, but I'll drop it for now.
Re: Umbreon and Florges, I've used both of them on all different types of teams, and I have to say they feel pretty much identical to me. It seems more like you choose one of them based on which special wallbreaker you're weak to - if you have lots of trouble with Mega-Blastoise, go with Florges, if you have lots of trouble with the nidos, go with Umbreon. Although Florges' typing is arguably better, its bulk is generally worse and it lacks some of the movepool options (Baton Pass most notably) that Umbreon does - and pure dark is by no means a shitty typing either, although the U-turn weakness is a bit undesirable. In terms of their attacking move, both do a surprising amount of damage. The damage output from Moonblast is more consistent, and it has the useful 30% SpA drop, but it also can't dissuade sweepers from boosting up for fear of getting OHKOd.
I'd stick them around A+ purely because they are the premium full Special Walls of the tier. They're both fairly one-dimensional (Curse Umbreon and CM Florges are technically viable, but sort of shitty), they both fulfill the exact same role, and the minor differences between them more or less balance out.
Oh, and Azelf needs a bump up to A rank (I think Bouff and I talked about this). The Suicide Lead set for hyper offense is crazy good and reliable, and Nasty Plot, Band, and LO are still all good options too. Although it suffers from slight 4MSS (for example, the nasty plot set really wants to run Fire Blast AND Psyshock AND Dazzling Gleam AND Energy Ball), it's still a very reliable poke with awesome coverage that can fit on most offensively-oriented teams quite well.
Re: Umbreon and Florges, I've used both of them on all different types of teams, and I have to say they feel pretty much identical to me. It seems more like you choose one of them based on which special wallbreaker you're weak to - if you have lots of trouble with Mega-Blastoise, go with Florges, if you have lots of trouble with the nidos, go with Umbreon. Although Florges' typing is arguably better, its bulk is generally worse and it lacks some of the movepool options (Baton Pass most notably) that Umbreon does - and pure dark is by no means a shitty typing either, although the U-turn weakness is a bit undesirable. In terms of their attacking move, both do a surprising amount of damage. The damage output from Moonblast is more consistent, and it has the useful 30% SpA drop, but it also can't dissuade sweepers from boosting up for fear of getting OHKOd.
I'd stick them around A+ purely because they are the premium full Special Walls of the tier. They're both fairly one-dimensional (Curse Umbreon and CM Florges are technically viable, but sort of shitty), they both fulfill the exact same role, and the minor differences between them more or less balance out.
Oh, and Azelf needs a bump up to A rank (I think Bouff and I talked about this). The Suicide Lead set for hyper offense is crazy good and reliable, and Nasty Plot, Band, and LO are still all good options too. Although it suffers from slight 4MSS (for example, the nasty plot set really wants to run Fire Blast AND Psyshock AND Dazzling Gleam AND Energy Ball), it's still a very reliable poke with awesome coverage that can fit on most offensively-oriented teams quite well.
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s rank is too much imo, sure they might be the premier walls of the tier, but they both have glaring downfalls that keep them from being absolute god tier.
flogre's main flaw is very obvious, it's shitty physical bulk. while it has a massive spdef stat, any neutral powerful hit, like victini's v-create, can be enough to 2hko it if not just outright kill. 78 hp isn't a blessing for wishes either, as aromatisse (who needs to be ranked lol) and umbreon can pass bigger wishes. its other big thing that shits on it is the fact that its abilities are just flat out useless.
umbreon, while it can check a lot of things that florges can't, mainly the nidos and roserade, and can also bitch slap physical attackers like darm and flygon trying to switch in with foul play, which only got better due to steel nerf, also has its own problems. it has a mediocre defensive typing, which gives it weaknesses to common offensive typings prominent in the metagame like bug and fighting. it also suffers due to the fact that it's complete setup bait for a lot of special sweepers like mega houndoom, venomoth, and porygon-z.
however, like i said they're the premier special walls of the tier and should probably stay where they are. if anything must absolutely change, umbreon to A rank doesn't seem like a bad idea.
flogre's main flaw is very obvious, it's shitty physical bulk. while it has a massive spdef stat, any neutral powerful hit, like victini's v-create, can be enough to 2hko it if not just outright kill. 78 hp isn't a blessing for wishes either, as aromatisse (who needs to be ranked lol) and umbreon can pass bigger wishes. its other big thing that shits on it is the fact that its abilities are just flat out useless.
umbreon, while it can check a lot of things that florges can't, mainly the nidos and roserade, and can also bitch slap physical attackers like darm and flygon trying to switch in with foul play, which only got better due to steel nerf, also has its own problems. it has a mediocre defensive typing, which gives it weaknesses to common offensive typings prominent in the metagame like bug and fighting. it also suffers due to the fact that it's complete setup bait for a lot of special sweepers like mega houndoom, venomoth, and porygon-z.
however, like i said they're the premier special walls of the tier and should probably stay where they are. if anything must absolutely change, umbreon to A rank doesn't seem like a bad idea.
Even physically defensive hippowdon is 2hkoed by victini's v-create, this point is moot. Florges's resistance to fighting and bug allows it to hard wall mienshao and heracross, two prominent physical threats, it can also deal with some variants of absol, so even though its physical bulk is statistically bad its typing makes it able to actually deal with some physical attackers. Florges has a huge influence in the meta as it walls so many offensive threats that its really hard to make an offensive team and not be like ''hm i dont have a good answer to florges'', forcing people to run specific answers for it. Theres a reason why the nidos are the premier wallbreakers this gen, and thats because trying to break defensive cores with florges using anything else is just too obnoxious.
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Florges: 157-186 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Florges: 175-207 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Florges: 221-263 (61.3 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's not exactly hard walling. And while you could say that not many Mienshao's run Poison Jab, perhaps that should tell you something about Florges' realistic scariness.
I think it was mentioned in another thread about how people always assume that tanks, especially wish-passers, are always at 100% HP. Between Hazards, U-turn/VS damage, and other forms of chip damage, as well as the myriad of roles that florges has to perform (healing the rest of the team, cleric, etc), it's sort of inaccurate to say that she hard walls these pokes when their breaking sets can easily eliminate Florges.
Ok, Umbreon and Florges; best special walls in the tier. They've been A+ for a reason. Anyway, on to how I feel about them:
Florges: I can't recommend a Pokemon that falls flat on its face against Megadoom, Suicune, Slowbro, and Victini to be S-rank. So, putting that out there. As for an A+ rank mon, I feel it falls short of this as well. A lot of people are probably going to disagree with me on this, but hear me out. Roserade will turn this thing into Spikes bait and the offensive Spikes set can only be safely beat by one spinner (Starmie) and one Defog user (Crobat. Mew is kinda safe, but Leaf Storm hurts a fuckton) Nidoking/Queen are two of the best wallbreakers in the tier, and they just laugh in the face of this thing. The best you can hope for is a SpA drop from Moonblast. If you don't get that, hope you have Mew, Cresselia, or AV Slowbro. Otherwise, you're probably losing a mon. Now, Florges is a special wall and it struggles with both Nidos AND Megadoom, 3 of the most dangerous special attackers in the tier. Now, Florges is able to take on Hydreigon, but Hydreigon isn't officially UU, nor is it ranked, so I will not be counting it atm. Obviously, Florges gets better if Hydreigon is officially unbanned, but until then, I feel it should drop to A rank. It has a hard time against some of the top threats such as Megadoom, the Nidos, Slowbro, Victini, Roserade, and Darmanitan and these are threats that a wall needs to be able to handle (or at least handle some of them)
Umbreon: I'm a little more on the fence about this one. Umbreon is able to handle the Nidos much more reliably as they have to hit Focus Blast twice, which isn't exactly the most reliable thing in the world. It is also able to check Victini by scouting it with Protect and then acting appropriately. While Florges can do this too, Umbreon can actually retaliate with Foul Play should Victini get too aggressive and try to use something like Bolt Strike to predict a switch-in. It can do the same against Darmanitan. Obviously, it still has trouble with Slowbro and Megadoom, but it at least has ways to deal with some of the top wallbreakers in the tier while still handling many special sweepers. Now, where does Umbreon fall short? Well, thanks to its Dark-typing, it is unable to keep some of the Fighting-types in check like Florges can. Still, I think Umbreon's typing is a bit better suited to be a special wall in today's metagame. Right now, I feel Umbreon should drop to A rank, but just barely. Its ability to handle the Nidos, deter status via Synchronize, and at least scout some of the dangerous physical choice mons like Cross, Tini, and Darm to help its teammates switch into the proper moves helps a lot, but it still struggles with the likes of Megadoom, Slowbro, and Mew by giving them easy access to battle and either setup (Slowbro, Megadoom) or easily support the team (Mew).
Remember guys, Hydreigon isn't officially UU and isn't ranked, so I don't think we should factor it into the rankings of these special walls atm. (Can you clarify this Limitless, unless you already did and I just was a dumb and missed it)
Florges: I can't recommend a Pokemon that falls flat on its face against Megadoom, Suicune, Slowbro, and Victini to be S-rank. So, putting that out there. As for an A+ rank mon, I feel it falls short of this as well. A lot of people are probably going to disagree with me on this, but hear me out. Roserade will turn this thing into Spikes bait and the offensive Spikes set can only be safely beat by one spinner (Starmie) and one Defog user (Crobat. Mew is kinda safe, but Leaf Storm hurts a fuckton) Nidoking/Queen are two of the best wallbreakers in the tier, and they just laugh in the face of this thing. The best you can hope for is a SpA drop from Moonblast. If you don't get that, hope you have Mew, Cresselia, or AV Slowbro. Otherwise, you're probably losing a mon. Now, Florges is a special wall and it struggles with both Nidos AND Megadoom, 3 of the most dangerous special attackers in the tier. Now, Florges is able to take on Hydreigon, but Hydreigon isn't officially UU, nor is it ranked, so I will not be counting it atm. Obviously, Florges gets better if Hydreigon is officially unbanned, but until then, I feel it should drop to A rank. It has a hard time against some of the top threats such as Megadoom, the Nidos, Slowbro, Victini, Roserade, and Darmanitan and these are threats that a wall needs to be able to handle (or at least handle some of them)
Umbreon: I'm a little more on the fence about this one. Umbreon is able to handle the Nidos much more reliably as they have to hit Focus Blast twice, which isn't exactly the most reliable thing in the world. It is also able to check Victini by scouting it with Protect and then acting appropriately. While Florges can do this too, Umbreon can actually retaliate with Foul Play should Victini get too aggressive and try to use something like Bolt Strike to predict a switch-in. It can do the same against Darmanitan. Obviously, it still has trouble with Slowbro and Megadoom, but it at least has ways to deal with some of the top wallbreakers in the tier while still handling many special sweepers. Now, where does Umbreon fall short? Well, thanks to its Dark-typing, it is unable to keep some of the Fighting-types in check like Florges can. Still, I think Umbreon's typing is a bit better suited to be a special wall in today's metagame. Right now, I feel Umbreon should drop to A rank, but just barely. Its ability to handle the Nidos, deter status via Synchronize, and at least scout some of the dangerous physical choice mons like Cross, Tini, and Darm to help its teammates switch into the proper moves helps a lot, but it still struggles with the likes of Megadoom, Slowbro, and Mew by giving them easy access to battle and either setup (Slowbro, Megadoom) or easily support the team (Mew).
Remember guys, Hydreigon isn't officially UU and isn't ranked, so I don't think we should factor it into the rankings of these special walls atm. (Can you clarify this Limitless, unless you already did and I just was a dumb and missed it)
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