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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread

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Ok, so I'll be talking about Victini for now, as PK pretty much said everything I wanted to say about Rape Ape except a few things which I will get on later.

I'm gonna go ahead and second the nomination of Victini being S rank. There's pretty much no argument that Victini is a fucking nuke, and as PK mentioned, it can run a fuckton of sets, the most viable being Choice Band, for the fact that it can pretty much 2HKO anything that doesn't resist it, and Mixtini, who fucks practically every single wall in the tier except for Curselax and fukin gligar kek. The thing about Rape Ape is that it has a much harder time dealing with physical walls such as Slowbro and Hippowdon, and has far worse defenses than tini, and should probably stay A+ rank.
 
Kitten Milk said:
This completely differs from my opinion last gen, but I've "seen the light", so to speak. Victini is incredibly strong in the tier, and if played correctly, can be one of the most threatening pokes for a number of reasons. I'm going to spend the first part of this post doing a bit of a c/c between Darm and Victini (imo Victini is more than just a little bit better), and the second part discussing why exactly I think Victini is such a threat.

Alright, so, the thing about Darmanitan is that he's extremely one-dimensional. Although he technically has a "viable" Scarf, LO, and Band set, the ultimate purpose of all of these sets are the same thing. Hit things hard, hit things fast. There's a reason why his April Fools' Day sprite said "Click Flare Blitz" - that is what you're going to be doing with him 95% of the time. Sure, he gets decent coverage and shares Vic's access to u-turn, but Flare Blitz spam is what makes him good.

Similarly, Victini has V-Create, a tremendously powerful nuke that it too will be using quite a lot. The negative effects of using V-Create are arguably a little less bad than those of Flare Blitz - while dropping defenses and speed may seem like a death sentence for an offensive poke, there are very few offensive mons that can freely switch into a v-create, especially without set knowledge. As such, most the mons that are willing to switch into Victini are bulky and rather slow, and will either get 2HKOd by Victini's, or force it to switch - in either case, the stat drop is practically meaningless. By contrast, Flare Blitz puts your HP bar on an even smaller timer than it already is, which, combined with hazard damage and shitty defences, can quickly wear Darmanitan down to the point where it can be picked off by priority.

More importantly, though, Victini is anything but one-dimensional. Although there are certainly other viable sets, the ones that I've seen and used to the greatest effect are as follows: Scarftini, Bandtini, Physical LO Tini w/ GK, Fully Special LO tini, Expert Belt Physical tini w/ GK, Expert Belt mixed tini w/ GK, Final Gambit tini, Charcoal Mixed Trick Room Victini, LO Bulky Physical TR Victini, and Mixed Work Up Victini. These sets aren't just theory either; they're all used, and used quite commonly, especially in higher level play. The element of unpredictability that Victini brings to the table is actually far greater than most pokes with variable sets - even, perhaps, Mew. The way that most Mew sets work are that if you see one move, you know them all, or at the very least, you have a reasonable idea of what can safely switch into it. By contrast, Victini can feasibly run any combination of moves, both special and physical, and with insane coverage. As such, there are very few - or arguably no - safe switchins to Victini without knowing its set, and those that are (read: Snorlax) have dropped precipitously in popularity.

Sure, Victini has its drawbacks. However, these are actually not quite as potent as they might seem. Let's review two of the main arguments as to Victini's weaknesses.

1. Hazards: There's no denying it, Victini does hate hazards. It's a grounded fire type, which means it has the unfortunate property of taking up to 50% from entry hazards, which, combined with Victini's nature as an offensive mon who likes to use U-turn and LO, can rack up very quickly. However, hazard control is by no means restrictive as it was last gen. No longer are people forced to devote an entire teamslot to disgusting crap like Foresight Hitmontop just to get rid of hazards so their Tini can sweep. The amount of viable defoggers and rapid spinners who also carry tremendous damage, utility, or tankiness as well has multiplied enormously - and plenty of them are good partners for Victini, as well. There's a reason we've seen a rise in people using double or even triple fire comps recently - the fire types in the UU tier are some of the most devastating pokes around, and, to compensate, they're weak to hazards. However, now all that's necessary is to run a Forry or a Mew and it's perfectly viable to run a team that can overwhelm the fire counters on the other person's team and easily sweep.

2. Weak to dark "priority" (Sucker Punch/Pursuit): I'd like to address something about Sucker Punch/Pursuit mons that's been bugging me for a while. The implied consensus in most discussions about these mons (especially Honchkrow) is that the guy running Pursuit and Sucker Punch is always going to magically make the correct prediction. Here's actually what happens.

Honchkrow has a choice to make. It can either Pursuit, predicting the ScarfTini to switch out after it killed another member of its team, or it can Sucker Punch, predicting Victini to stay in. Assuming that both of these scenarios are equally likely - which is not altogether unreasonable, we can then see that there are four possible scenarios.
  • Victini goes for the V-Create, and Honchkrow Sucker Punches. Honchkrow kills, obviously, and Honch gets a moxie boost, whereas Victini just goes RIP. Win/Lose
  • Victini goes for the V-Create, and Honchkrow mispredicts and Pursuits. Victini goes first, and Honchkrow dies miserably in a flaming V. Lose/Win
  • Victini tries to switch out, and Honchkrow Pursuits. Honchkrow kills the Victini, gets the moxie boost, and life goes on. Win/Lose
  • Victini tries to switch out, and Honchkrow Sucker Punches (fkn idiot), hitting nothing at all. Victini's team gets free momentum, and Honchkrow is forced to switch out (probably). Lose/Win
Although the relative effects of each of these scenarios is debatable, on a simplistic level the whole "Pursuit-trapping" thing will only work 50% of the time. Given that two of the scenarios involve Victini dying, and the other two involve Honch dying or losing momentum, it's sort of silly to contend that Pursuit-trapping is always a winning strategy for the Honchkrow. As such, this really can't be considered as a "counter" to Victini, given that there's a 50% chance it'll fail miserably and end up killing the Honchkrow instead of the Victini.

At the end of the day, Victini is just incredibly good. There's very little that can deal with it directly as a counter, and the playstyle/offensive counters of hazards and pursuit trapping are shaky at best, especially with the changes in generation six. Because of these things, Victini definitely deserves to be S Rank. Just because a pokemon technically has weaknesses doesn't make its otherworldly strengths any less otherworldly.
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Ok I think there are some points I'd like to address about Victini that may make it not worthy of S-Rank like you've said.

Ok, first, we have V-Create's drawbacks. Yes, I know you did mention them, but I think you need to address the negative effects of V-Create and their outcomes in a little more detail. Firstly, it really fucking hurt Scarf's ability to clean late-game. One Speed drop basically causes Victini to lose its Scarf while still being locked into its STAB, while another one makes it really slow and easily revenge killed. I know Victini can use Flare Blitz as an option, but if A. You have to sack a coverage move in order to do this and B. Flare Blitz is outclassed af by Darmanitan for obvious reasons (Sheer Force, higher Attack stat, etc.) As such, I really find that Scarf Darmanitan outclasses Scarf Victini a good amount.

Second, I really feel as though you're over-estimating Victini's flexibility when it comes to all of its sets. A lot of the sets you listed are... well, average at best. Honestly, it's main sets are Choice Band, Choice Scarf (Who I've already stated I feel is outclassed), Physical Life Orb with Energy Ball, and Special Life Orb. Shit like TR Tini and Work Up Tini really can't be used to say that it's so much more flexible then Darm... I mean I know it definitely is more flexible then Darm, it's not as unpredictable as you make it out to be.

I also feel like you're really underplaying Stealth Rock. Yes, we all definitely understand that Defog/Rapid Spin users are much more common this Gen. However, you failed to mention how A. Spinning/Defoging loses serious momentum for your team, B. A good chunk of the common Spinners struggle to beat a lot of defensive Ghost-types, C. The opponent can always set SR up again to hurt Victini and force you to spin again, and D. A lot of the Spinners/Defog users are prone to being worn down quite easily.

Finally while Victini can definitely beat Bulky Water-types much easier, Darmanitan has a much easier time against defensive Arcanine, something that Victini struggles against.

So anyways while I do believe Victini is overall better than Darmanitan as a Life Orb/Band user, I really don't feel as though it's enough to warrant S-Rank. I'm not the most active UU player, though, so if some of my points are wrong/not very accurate, feel free to address them. Though I think you did make some compelling arguments that need to be considered.
 
I'm liking the arguments currently being made, but I'm going to interject really quick for an announcement. I will not be adding Pokemon to the rankings unless they are officially deemed UU. So basically, I'll add Hydreigon (and we will discuss it) once it officially goes UU.
 
Nomination Darmanitan for A rank
Darmanitan is a very powerful pokemon in the current UU metagame. With the combination of a massive 140 base attack, a fantastic ability in Sheer force, and a movepull with great options such as Rock slide, EQ, Superpower, U-turn and Flare blitz. Sheer force boosted Flare blitz 2HKO/OHKOs Half of the tier, and if you add a choice band to the mix multiple resists cannot safely switch in without risking the 2HKO. Those who can take the hit from Flare blitz might be 2HKO/OHKOed by one of Darms coverage moves. And if the situation gets sticky Darm can always U-turn out and possibly gain momentum.

But everything is not fine and dandy about Darmanitan, as it packs a few major flaws.
Darmanitan is really easy to predict. You will almost always know what moves Darm has, because it has a very limited effective movepull and the only move you're normally unsure about is if it carries EQ or Superpower. The only thing you need to scout for is item, which is either a life orb, Scarf or Band. Outside of that we have Darmanitans bad defesive typing, which combined with below average defenses makes Darmanitan very easy to take down, espessially with SR support (which he is weak to) and the recoil damage from Flare blitz. Darmanitan also struggels with bulky waters. 95 Speed can also be a problem in a meta infested with 100 speed+ pokemon.

Because of these points, I mean that Darmanitan should drop from A+ to A

Nominating Victini for S rank
I was going to write a long post about Victini aswell, but Everything I wanted to say can be found in Kitten Milk and Bouffalant's posts.

Limitless said:
I'm liking the arguments currently being made, but I'm going to interject really quick for an announcement. I will not be adding Pokemon to the rankings unless they are officially deemed UU. So basically, I'll add Hydreigon (and we will discuss it) once it officially goes UU.
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So BL pokemon under testing will not appear on the list? (Not sure if I completely understood what you meant) Will this change the way of ranking Below-UU pokemon?
 
Darm may have a limited and predictable movepool, but is hard as fuck to switch into especially life orb variants
It requires little to no support since it cant be burned and its job is to kamikaze its way through the enemy team anyway.
A+ because fuck arcanine and its weak shit flare blitzes
 
Yellow Cheese said:
So BL pokemon under testing will not appear on the list? (Not sure if I completely understood what you meant) Will this change the way of ranking Below-UU pokemon?
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Most likely not, it really just means mons being tested won't be ranked until the test is over and they have managed to stay UU.
 
midend said:
Darm may have a limited and predictable movepool, but is hard as fuck to switch into especially life orb variants
It requires little to no support since it cant be burned and its job is to kamikaze its way through the enemy team anyway.
A+ because fuck arcanine and its weak shit flare blitzes
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Darm IS very predictable, but that doesn't mean he won't still demolish your team haha
 
TeraVoltage said:
Darmanitan IS very predictable, but that doesn't mean he won't still demolish your team haha
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That could not be more true I mean the sheer force of Darmanitan (lol sorry) is enough to demolish unprepared or weakened teams, but its weakness to priority due to its low defense and how easily it is worn down between hazards and a recoil stab balances Darmanitan out to be solidly A/A+ Aank imo.
 
LightningLuxray said:
Ok I think there are some points I'd like to address about Victini that may make it not worthy of S-Rank like you've said.

Ok, first, we have V-Create's drawbacks. Yes, I know you did mention them, but I think you need to address the negative effects of V-Create and their outcomes in a little more detail. Firstly, it really fucking hurt Scarf's ability to clean late-game. One Speed drop basically causes Victini to lose its Scarf while still being locked into its STAB, while another one makes it really slow and easily revenge killed. I know Victini can use Flare Blitz as an option, but if A. You have to sack a coverage move in order to do this and B. Flare Blitz is outclassed af by Darmanitan for obvious reasons (Sheer Force, higher Attack stat, etc.) As such, I really find that Scarf Darmanitan outclasses Scarf Victini a good amount.

Second, I really feel as though you're over-estimating Victini's flexibility when it comes to all of its sets. A lot of the sets you listed are... well, average at best. Honestly, it's main sets are Choice Band, Choice Scarf (Who I've already stated I feel is outclassed), Physical Life Orb with Energy Ball, and Special Life Orb. Shit like TR Tini and Work Up Tini really can't be used to say that it's so much more flexible then Darm... I mean I know it definitely is more flexible then Darm, it's not as unpredictable as you make it out to be.

I also feel like you're really underplaying Stealth Rock. Yes, we all definitely understand that Defog/Rapid Spin users are much more common this Gen. However, you failed to mention how A. Spinning/Defoging loses serious momentum for your team, B. A good chunk of the common Spinners struggle to beat a lot of defensive Ghost-types, C. The opponent can always set SR up again to hurt Victini and force you to spin again, and D. A lot of the Spinners/Defog users are prone to being worn down quite easily.

Finally while Victini can definitely beat Bulky Water-types much easier, Darmanitan has a much easier time against defensive Arcanine, something that Victini struggles against.

So anyways while I do believe Victini is overall better than Darmanitan as a Life Orb/Band user, I really don't feel as though it's enough to warrant S-Rank. I'm not the most active UU player, though, so if some of my points are wrong/not very accurate, feel free to address them. Though I think you did make some compelling arguments that need to be considered.
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While I certainly appreciate some of these points, I can't say that I agree with them entirely. As I mentioned, a speed drop doesn't cause Victini to "lose" its Scarf. Victini's Scarf is used in order to come in on fast offensive threats and scare them out with the threat of a V-Create, forcing them to sack something or switch into something defensive - and in either case, the speed drop is mostly irrelevant.

Second, I honestly don't find any of the sets I posted to be average whatsoever. Nearly all of them have been used in recent tournaments (like the UUPL) - just because something doesn't do the massive damage of the band set doesn't mean it's not viable or not good; often, surprise factor is immensely important in distinguishing A ranked pokes from S ranked pokes, and if a poke can viably run moves that give it surprise factor, it's a big boost in its viability. Even if we ignore all of the "gimmicky" (but actually quite good) sets and say that Victini can only run combinations of special and physical movepool (e.g., choose any four - V-Create, Blue Flare, Bolt Strike, U-turn, Grass Knot, Psychic, Psyshock, Zen Headbutt, Final Gambit, Focus Blast), it still isn't "predictable" enough to be countered by anything at all, except for perhaps fully defensive AV Snorlax with pursuit which A: isn't exactly common and B: doesn't exactly enjoy taking two banded V-Creates, if that ends up being the case.

252 SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arcanine: 191-226 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arcanine: 140-166 (36.4 - 43.2%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Finally, in order to address your Stealth Rock/hazard point, I'm going to bring up a little comparison that I think is relevant - Victini's place in the current metagame as opposed to Victini's place at the very end of Generation 5. For those of you who were around back then, you'd know that Victini actually went through an extremely controversial suspect test last gen, and it was absolutely considered one of the premier pokes of UU. So, what changed from now until then?

1. Defog/Spinners in UU. Like I said in my last post, removing hazards now is a cakewalk compared to what it was in gen 5. Whether or not it's easy to get defog or spin off in the objective sense of the word (which I'd honestly still argue it is, but that's mostly irrelevant), it's absolutely far easier than it was before. In that regard, this generation shift absolutely benefited Victini.

2. The dreaded Knock Off. Okay, this one clearly wasn't friendly to tini. The dark buff in general means that we see slightly more dark moves in UU than previously. However, if we look closer, we realize that as much as people gripe about Knock Off being broken, it really isn't affecting Victini all too much. Let's look at pokes that commonly carry Knock Off in the metagame.

Mega-Sol: He certainly can't come in on Victini. If he switches into Victini after sacking something, it's more of a 50/50 guessing game as to Sucker Punch or Pursuit/SD than it is about Knock Off. However, his presence is slightly annoying.

Krookodile: Fully defensive Krookodile is annoying to Victini, as even U-turn doesn't do all too much. At the same time, it doesn't appreciate taking an LO grass knot.

252 SpA Life Orb Victini Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 255-302 (76.8 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Offensive versions will be slaughtered by a V-Create, and Victini outspeeds, so Knock Off isn't really all too relevant here either.

Machamp: Can't switch in at all, and Band straight OHKOs.
Mew: Only fully defensive Mew can risk taking a banded knock off, and Knock off only does 37-44% anyway.
Mienshao: Knock Off does offer a slightly more reliable way than Stone Edge to kill Victini, but prior damage is needed even on Jolly LO to ensure the kill. Stone Edge still does more damage, too.


I might be forgetting a couple, but the point still remains the same. As good of a buff as dark types got this gen, Knock Off specifically didn't really effect Victini all too much. At the end of the day, all it means is that Victini has a bit harder time switching into Mew and has to be slightly more careful around Mienshao.

3. New drops from previous OU: This would be relevant, if there was really anything that got dropped that can aptly deal with Victini. Hippowdon is decent, but he doesn't enjoy taking grass knots to the face.

In other words, the generation shift didn't really seem to hurt Victini whatsoever, if at all. If Victini was considered an S-rank mon (easily) last gen, what has really changed this gen? As far as I can tell, from a purely anecdotal perspective, Victini's potential is being utilized even more and more effectively this gen than it was last gen.

EDIT: Oh right, Heracross. Tbh, Knock Off is just slightly more safe to lock into than EQ/Stone Edge were last gen, and there's less of pursuit heracross running around as a consequence, so this one might even be a net positive.
 
Victini doesnt define the meta anymore than other fire types tbh, im fine with it staying A+. Mega Doom gets a pass because its the only fire mon that has that scary sweep potential with nasty plot (and FLAME CHARGE). All the others ones are just nukes and are a lot easier to deal with as they will never threaten to setup anything and easily run through you. Darmanitan should probably drop just for the sake of it being inferior to victini, as such its rank should reflect this by going down at least to A rank. V-Create>Flare Blitz easily, lowering stats is bad but flare blitz recoil is just horrible and combined with darmanitan's frailty makes it go down too fast, while victini can do shit like survive scarf shao stone edge after stealth rock. Mixtini is also pretty scary and can often get free kills against would be counters like slowbro (thundah) and rhyperior (grass knot) giving it some versatility (just dont use life orb pls, thats so counterproductive its not even funny). Every time i make a team i never, ever consider using darmanitan over victini because the bulk, superior movepool, speed, and better stab move just give it so much of an edge over it its not even funny. Obviously thats not to say darmanitan is bad by any means, but it inst on the same level as tini and should definitely not stay on the same rank as it.
 
SmashBrosBrawl said:
Victini doesnt define the meta anymore than other fire types tbh, im fine with it staying A+. Mega Doom gets a pass because its the only fire mon that has that scary sweep potential with nasty plot (and FLAME CHARGE). All the others ones are just nukes and are a lot easier to deal with as they will never threaten to setup anything and easily run through you. Darmanitan should probably drop just for the sake of it being inferior to victini, as such its rank should reflect this by going down at least to A rank. V-Create>Flare Blitz easily, lowering stats is bad but flare blitz recoil is just horrible and combined with darmanitan's frailty makes it go down too fast, while victini can do shit like survive scarf shao stone edge after stealth rock. Mixtini is also pretty scary and can often get free kills against would be counters like slowbro (thundah) and rhyperior (grass knot) giving it some versatility (just dont use life orb pls, thats so counterproductive its not even funny). Every time i make a team i never, ever consider using darmanitan over victini because the bulk, superior movepool, speed, and better stab move just give it so much of an edge over it its not even funny. Obviously thats not to say darmanitan is bad by any means, but it inst on the same level as tini and should definitely not stay on the same rank as it.
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Gz on 1k posts yo.

Anyway, the general consensus seems to be that Darm is worse than Victini, whether just a little bit or quite a lot.

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Florges: 480-565 (133.3 - 156.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Florges: 502-592 (139.4 - 164.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(just saying)

However, isn't it possible that the fault with Darm and Vic's respective ranking could be centered around Victini being too low rather than Darm being too high? Given that both of their rankings are in limbo atm, it seems rather weird to say "Darm is worse than Vic, and should thus be A", when it assumes that Victini being A+ is a given, which imo it's not. I personally think that Darm is good enough to remain in A+ - while it does have its flaws, and being suicidal is never good in pokemon, it does bring so much pure power and threat to the table. Just upon the basis of their merits as physical nukes, Darm does offer a level of spammability that Victini doesn't against offensive teams - as good as Victini is, it can't really sweep entire teams.
 
You cant sweep teams when you have the defenses of a paper bag, average speed and loses health everytime you use your main stab move. Darmanitan is a nuke, it opens holes on a team so a teammate can sweep, its no different than victini, the difference is that victini is a better nuke and thats why darmanitan should not stay on the same rank as it.
 
Darm can maintain offensive momentum till it goes down. Can victini do that? Vcreate cannot be spammed easily without tr. Not many things can force darm out, and even if they do they probably wont do much to the rest of your team. That ability to maintain offensive momentum and pressure the enemy into sending in a tank or a revenge killer instead of a set up sweeper is what makes on par with victini in terms of efficiency not damage
 
Kitten Milk said:
While I certainly appreciate some of these points, I can't say that I agree with them entirely. As I mentioned, a speed drop doesn't cause Victini to "lose" its Scarf. Victini's Scarf is used in order to come in on fast offensive threats and scare them out with the threat of a V-Create, forcing them to sack something or switch into something defensive - and in either case, the speed drop is mostly irrelevant.

Second, I honestly don't find any of the sets I posted to be average whatsoever. Nearly all of them have been used in recent tournaments (like the UUPL) - just because something doesn't do the massive damage of the band set doesn't mean it's not viable or not good; often, surprise factor is immensely important in distinguishing A ranked pokes from S ranked pokes, and if a poke can viably run moves that give it surprise factor, it's a big boost in its viability. Even if we ignore all of the "gimmicky" (but actually quite good) sets and say that Victini can only run combinations of special and physical movepool (e.g., choose any four - V-Create, Blue Flare, Bolt Strike, U-turn, Grass Knot, Psychic, Psyshock, Zen Headbutt, Final Gambit, Focus Blast), it still isn't "predictable" enough to be countered by anything at all, except for perhaps fully defensive AV Snorlax with pursuit which A: isn't exactly common and B: doesn't exactly enjoy taking two banded V-Creates, if that ends up being the case.

252 SpA Life Orb Victini Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arcanine: 191-226 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arcanine: 140-166 (36.4 - 43.2%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Finally, in order to address your Stealth Rock/hazard point, I'm going to bring up a little comparison that I think is relevant - Victini's place in the current metagame as opposed to Victini's place at the very end of Generation 5. For those of you who were around back then, you'd know that Victini actually went through an extremely controversial suspect test last gen, and it was absolutely considered one of the premier pokes of UU. So, what changed from now until then?

1. Defog/Spinners in UU. Like I said in my last post, removing hazards now is a cakewalk compared to what it was in gen 5. Whether or not it's easy to get defog or spin off in the objective sense of the word (which I'd honestly still argue it is, but that's mostly irrelevant), it's absolutely far easier than it was before. In that regard, this generation shift absolutely benefited Victini.

2. The dreaded Knock Off. Okay, this one clearly wasn't friendly to tini. The dark buff in general means that we see slightly more dark moves in UU than previously. However, if we look closer, we realize that as much as people gripe about Knock Off being broken, it really isn't affecting Victini all too much. Let's look at pokes that commonly carry Knock Off in the metagame.

Mega-Sol: He certainly can't come in on Victini. If he switches into Victini after sacking something, it's more of a 50/50 guessing game as to Sucker Punch or Pursuit/SD than it is about Knock Off. However, his presence is slightly annoying.

Krookodile: Fully defensive Krookodile is annoying to Victini, as even U-turn doesn't do all too much. At the same time, it doesn't appreciate taking an LO grass knot.

252 SpA Life Orb Victini Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 255-302 (76.8 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Offensive versions will be slaughtered by a V-Create, and Victini outspeeds, so Knock Off isn't really all too relevant here either.

Machamp: Can't switch in at all, and Band straight OHKOs.
Mew: Only fully defensive Mew can risk taking a banded knock off, and Knock off only does 37-44% anyway.
Mienshao: Knock Off does offer a slightly more reliable way than Stone Edge to kill Victini, but prior damage is needed even on Jolly LO to ensure the kill. Stone Edge still does more damage, too.


I might be forgetting a couple, but the point still remains the same. As good of a buff as dark types got this gen, Knock Off specifically didn't really effect Victini all too much. At the end of the day, all it means is that Victini has a bit harder time switching into Mew and has to be slightly more careful around Mienshao.

3. New drops from previous OU: This would be relevant, if there was really anything that got dropped that can aptly deal with Victini. Hippowdon is decent, but he doesn't enjoy taking grass knots to the face.

In other words, the generation shift didn't really seem to hurt Victini whatsoever, if at all. If Victini was considered an S-rank mon (easily) last gen, what has really changed this gen? As far as I can tell, from a purely anecdotal perspective, Victini's potential is being utilized even more and more effectively this gen than it was last gen.

EDIT: Oh right, Heracross. Tbh, Knock Off is just slightly more safe to lock into than EQ/Stone Edge were last gen, and there's less of pursuit heracross running around as a consequence, so this one might even be a net positive.
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Ok I definitely understand your points. Some of them I don't necessarily agree with (such as the speed drop on Scarf being irrelevant, and the viability of some of those sets) but either way I can definitely understand why you feel that Victini is S-Rank. However I kinda have to agree with SSB that Victini doesn't define the metagame enough like something like Mew to be S-Rank. I also feel the its flaws still seriously hold it back, such as the Stealth Rock weakness. I mean the new drops have definitely made it easier to spin, but I think we also have to consider that a bunch of new stuff also dropped in the meta to help deal with Tini as well. Not only that but like I said in my previous post the loss in momentum cause by having to use Defog/Rapid Spin can really suck for your team. I do think I'm leaning more towards S-Rank though than I was before, though. I think Victini's a boarderline case that I think really comes down to if you feel its strengths are enough to make it S-Rank. Right now I think I'm still leaning more towards A+ Rank though.
 
I can definitely see where people are coming from when they nominate Victini for the coveted S-Rank; Victini is commonly Choice Scarfed or Banded, but can easily go Special with Choice Specs, Physical/Special Life Orb, Mixed Life Orb, or even Trick Room Weakness Policy (yes this is a thing, I thought it was a joke, but it is VERY real). I myself am torn on whether or not it is S worthy or not, as not many people use Victini's other potential sets and rarely deviate from the Scarfed or Banded set, it is very easy to play around. With that in mind, it becomes almost muscle memory to switch to a bulky water or Hippowdon, but then you find out it is a Mixed Life Orb set rather than a generic Choice Set. I can say with confidence that Darmanitan is A+ and not nearly as over centralizing as others make it out to be.
 
I think Victini should stay A+, while it is indeed very powerful and versatile, a lot of pokemon that take it on are very popular right now like Suicune and Mega-Houndoom. Not to mention the SR weakness and dark(Knock Off)weakness. Darmanitan is a physical powerhouse and has the ability to beat mons like Mega-Houndoom more easily with Rock Slide/EQ, but it is unfortunately very predictable because it can't go mixed like Victini and usually has only 2 good sets(scarf and LO). So I'd be fine with Darm in A-rank. Limitless don't forget to put Hydreigon in S-rank for now. It's a great wallbreaker and its typing is much needed to take on Mega-Houndoom, although the popularity of Florges sucks for it.
 
I think Victini should stay A+, while it is indeed very powerful and versatile, a lot of pokemon that take it on are very popular right now like Suicune and Mega-Houndoom. Not to mention the SR weakness and dark(Knock Off)weakness. Darmanitan is a physical powerhouse and has the ability to beat mons like Mega-Houndoom more easily with Rock Slide/EQ, but it is unfortunately very predictable because it can't go mixed like Victini and usually has only 2 good sets(scarf and LO). So I'd be fine with Darm in A-rank. Limitless don't forget to put Hydreigon in S-rank for now. It's a great wallbreaker and its typing is much needed to take on Mega-Houndoom, although the popularity of Florges sucks for it.
 
Can you guys not write A-Rank if you mean A rank? its confusing my head

Also I'm not sure if Victini is the S tier mon that people are making it out to be. It still is completely stopped by a selection of defensive mons even though its scarf set is great- its also extremely prone to revenge killing and pursuit weak. Furthermore it can't use its main draw (V-create) more than once or twice before being forced out. It can be very difficult to keep momentum with Victini, being unable to late-game sweep with its main STAB like other scarfers. Psychic is also a very unfortunate secondary typing which means it always has to think about switch-ins with knock-off being commonly ran, and sucker punch users being at the top of the threat list. Victini does have sheer power and a fair amount of versatility due to trick, scarf, band, special and mixed options, as well as having incredibly power STAB and high powered coverage and access to U-turn. Its power has definitely helped shape the tier but I feel like the tier has developed answers for it such as Gligar, Hippowdon, Donphan, Mega Blastoise and Slowbro being good stops to various sets. None of its counters are obscure and are fairly easy to fit into teams. A+ for its fantastic power and good versatility, not S because questionable typing, no stamina, several checks and counters available and SR weak.
 
Pipotchi said:
Can you guys not write A-Rank if you mean A rank? its confusing my head

Also I'm not sure if Victini is the S tier mon that people are making it out to be. It still is completely stopped by a selection of defensive mons even though its scarf set is great- its also extremely prone to revenge killing and pursuit weak. Furthermore it can't use its main draw (V-create) more than once or twice before being forced out. It can be very difficult to keep momentum with Victini, being unable to late-game sweep with its main STAB like other scarfers. Psychic is also a very unfortunate secondary typing which means it always has to think about switch-ins with knock-off being commonly ran, and sucker punch users being at the top of the threat list. Victini does have sheer power and a fair amount of versatility due to trick, scarf, band, special and mixed options, as well as having incredibly power STAB and high powered coverage and access to U-turn. Its power has definitely helped shape the tier but I feel like the tier has developed answers for it such as Gligar, Hippowdon, Donphan, Mega Blastoise and Slowbro being good stops to various sets. None of its counters are obscure and are fairly easy to fit into teams. A+ for its fantastic power and good versatility, not S because questionable typing, no stamina, several checks and counters available and SR weak.
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Victini can get past all of those Pokemon you just mentioned.

Hippowdon gets 2hko by Grass Knot, same with Donphan and while Grass Knot isn't overtly common, it can still very easily break them.

Victini can 2hko Max defense eviolite Gligar (which actually is pretty obscure) with a Banded V-Create and it doesn't even need SR to do so. Banded Victini is probably the most common set as well.

Victini has a 75% to OHKO 252HP Mega Blastoise with a Banded Bolt Strike while choice Scarf is a guarenteed 2hko.

Slowbro is the only Pokemon were a grey area appears thanks to Regenerator. It can easily be 2HKO by a banded Bolt Strike but thanks to Regenerator, it can easily switch to something that can take Bolt Strike better.

Victini also has decent stamina, 100/100/100 defenses is still pretty damn good for something so diverse and with so much offensive presence.

I think A+ should be the absolute minimum ranking for Victini. It has a couple of flaws in common weaknesses, it can take away momentum thanks to V-Create stat drops, a weakness to all entry hazards and a reliance on prediction in order to net some 2HKOs. I am not sure if these are enough to hold it back from S Rank but its strengths definitely make it at least A+.
 
Kushalos said:
Limitless don't forget to put Hydreigon in S-rank for now. It's a great wallbreaker and its typing is much needed to take on Mega-Houndoom, although the popularity of Florges sucks for it.
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He won't put pokemon in the rankings until they are oficially UU.
 
For people who say Darmanitan has the bulk of a paper bag, that is true, but when you're slapping on a Scarf, no one cares too much about its bulk if you are not able to even touch it. MikeDecIsHere made this argument in his Mega Lucario Video. This is in contrast to something like Banded Snorlax, where it is forced to run bulk because it is going to take a hit in most circumstances.

Darmanitan is better at late game, when only slower mon's are around, such as Mega Blastoise and Nidoqueen. By the end game, these Mon's are probably weakened. This is different from Victini's role, as basically as strictly a revenge killer. V-Create obviously prevents Victini from sweeping teams in most circumstances; however, Victini does have access to a few things, such as Flare Blitz and STAB Zen Headbutt.

I know what you guys are gonna say, that Zen Headbutt is ass, but it really isn't. I believe it is an invaluable coverage move to put on a ScarfTini for a multitude of reasons. First off, Pokes such as Kingdra and Qwilfish from getting a completely free switch in. This would be the same as EQ for Darmanitan; however, Darmanitan lacks STAB, and it has no flinch chance. The Flinch Chance on Zen Headbutt is only 10% less than Scald Burning, Sludge Bomb poisoning, and Moon Blast dropping SpA. That isn't that bad. Because of Victory Star, V-Create will never miss, Bolt Strike misses about 6% of the time, and Zen Headbutt has a 1% chance to miss (I have only missed on PO).

In addition, Victini is in a higher speed tier than Darm, allowing it to potentially revenge kill things that Darmanitan cannot. The Scenario is this: You have a Scarfed Victini vs enemy Flygon at 40% and Nidoking that has taken only 2 SR switch ins. Believe it or not, this is something that I run into often. For Darm, if Flygon is jolly, the opponent will win unless he chokes. However, Victini does have about a 50% chance to win if Flygon is jolly (granted you are jolly). You OHK the Nidoking and Flygon (at those ranges), whereas Darm will lose almost 100% of the time.

Victini also sports bulk, which means it can actually be used as an effective pivot. Defensively, Fire is pretty bad, however, it can come in Steel, Fairy, and other Fire attacks. In addition to its psychic typing, it can switch in on Mienshao's HJK or Heracross' CC. Darm cannot hope to switch in on Roserade for fear of Sludge Bomb. This deters Darmanitan from being a switch in, making it more viable as a late game cleaner. Victini can be used as an effective pivot.

In terms of sheer power, there is almost no debate that Darm will out-damage Victini (SF Flare Blitz vs Scarfed V-Create); however, I do not believe calculations should be the only thing that should be considered. In practice, Victini is definitely not undermined by Darmanitan.

Victini also has the ability to run a Mixed, Special, or Lure Set, all of which are not average, as some claim. With moves such as Energy Ball, Thunderbolt, Psychic, Blue Flare, Focus Blast, and Thunder, it is no wonder that Victini was suspected last gen. Some hard "counters," such as Swampert, Quagsire, Slowbro, and Suicine, are popped by Energy Ball or Thunderbolt. You simply 2HK with some prior Hazard Damage. Of course, Suicine is not likely to stay in on a "special" set, so the opponent switches in Florges to eat up Grass Knot/Blue Flare. This is where you reveal you have V-Create and OHK after a little bit of prior damage. This is what makes Victini different from Darm, for it can actually beat some of its counters, whereas Darm has to out-muscle his counters with hazards and other Pokemon support.

Victini can also be an effective lure. If a team were to SD Cobalion, and the enemy team has a Slowbro, by "locking" oneself in V-Create, revealing Thunder or Energy Ball would be a great way for +2 Cobalion to break down Slowbro.

Victini does have some drawbacks; however, turning these disadvantages into advantages is great. I cannot tell you how many times Honk comes in after Victini V-Creates, and the player goes for the Brave Bird predicting the switch. Victini still outspeeds (if you're scarfed), so you pop them because who in their right mind would stay in?

Because of this, I think I prefer the versatility that Victini has to offer, but the power Darm does. It really depends on what a team needs. If you need a powerful, bulky revenge killer, Victini is the Pokemon for you. If you want a fast nuke, use Darm. If you want to lure in something like Unaware Quagsire for your team to beat, then run Victini!

Victini for S-ranked, and Darm for A ranked.
 
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