Gen 4 Generation 4 Viability Ranking (OU)

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I agree but Heatran is a check nonetheless since the majority of the Crobat people use are the U-Turn/Taunt/Brave Bird/Roost variant. Super Fang would put a great stress onto Heatran though but one must be wary of Lava Plume.

Crobat + Dugtrio is a cool combo. I'd probably use it.
 
LizardMan said:
I agree but Heatran is a check nonetheless since the majority of the Crobat people use are the U-Turn/Taunt/Brave Bird/Roost variant. Super Fang would put a great stress onto Heatran though but one must be wary of Lava Plume.
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For the most part, yeah he checks in a way (plus, Dugtrio can't switch in on a move directly or face Scarf). However, it can't be fully consisted as a check since Crobat's game plan revolves only around disruption and quick escapes. He'll always switch out (naturally or by U-Turn) on Heatran. Also, you never use Super Fang or Taunt when you're out on Heatran itself (unless you're ballsy and predict Stealth Rock), only if you catch it on the switch.

Basically, checking Crobat is hard in any capacity. You can only really do it if the user mispredicts or you have a Scarf).

And about Roost, to anyone reading, try Crobat without it (I find Brave Bird too valuable to drop). He makes a perfect Pokemon to pass a Wish to. Picks up Jirachi's Ground weakness, Blissey's Fighting weakness, and Vaporeon's Grass weakness. You keep the full utility of the stallbreaker, but still get a way to heal.

Crobat + Dugtrio is a cool combo. I'd probably use it.
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Yeah, it's pretty dirty. I don't even use Magnezone, but that sounds like a really fun time if you throw him in there as well (catches all Steels besides Bronzong, but Crobat just Taunts it anyway).
 
Im double posting but this is relevant so I will.

Heracross. The boosting sets are too slow and are generally done better by Lucario, Scizor, and Infernape. Scarf Heracross is good, although it gets walled easily due to the lack of power to break through common pivots and lacks resistance to priority. Although when it comes to hit and run pokemon Heracross has his niche. Boasting greater strength than Choice Band Tyranitar with both STAB moves, he can make very many teams cry and get crushed by his heraculean strength. These are the sets I'd argue which makes Heracross better than what he is ranked right now.

Heracross (M) @ Choice Band
Trait: Guts
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Stone Edge
- Megahorn
- Close Combat
- Pursuit

Heracross (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Guts
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Sleep Talk
- Close Combat
- Megahorn
- Rest

Heracross has a useful defensive typing, resisting fighting, ground, bug, grass, and dark. I personally believe Heracross functions a lot better in the modern DPP OU metagame instead of the steel dragon one where Salamence was legal. People can argue that Infernape is faster and has U-Turn, but Heracross has very great power and decent bulk. Heracross is also less prediction reliant because of his checks and counters.
Zapdos, Gliscor, Gyarados, Dragonite, Rotom-A, Tentacruel, and Gengar, Skarmory. All of his checks and counter get 2hko'd by his STAB moves (or take around 40% making them shaky switch ins with possible SR and Sand), making the only prediction you need a 50-50. Lets be honest, Choice Band or Guts Boosted Rest/Talk Heracross 2hkoing a 252 HP Dragonite with CB CC after SR is extremely satisfying 42.4 - 50%. The listed damage calculation is CB Heracross vs 252 HP Dragonite, but it is safe to assume a sleeping guts LO Heracross does even more damage. He can get stronger from Toxic Spikes and WoW.

He doesn't have U-Turn like Scizor or his typing, but Heracross is faster, can check Breloom, and break walls more easily. The popularity of Bold Starmie in DPP OU helps Heracross's case. Bold Starmie checks fighters like Lucario and Infernape very well. Heracross doesn't really care that much since he has Megahorn. Infernape plays best as a physical mix sweeper. For him to hit Bold Starmie hard as possible, he needs to go out of his comfort zone and run Grass Knot. That is also a risk because Infernape can never tell if the Starmie is slow or fast unless with damage calcs or with Sand. Infernape is also a little more prediction reliant. Lucario is easier to shut down early on since Lucario is generally a late game mon, and has more moveslot syndrome than Heracross does. To be fair though, Lucario can spam powerful CC's to scout or revenge stuff with Extreme Speed.

Rest/Talk Guts is also a very big niche for Heracross. A Rest/Talk offensive pokemon which gets stronger and can use Life Orb. Working well with the popular Starmie and wallbreakers. I like the sound of that. Weavile is also a good partner for the Rest/Talk set to get rid of ghosts and to check dragons. I don't use Tyranitar because sand is bad for Heracross. Mix Flygon is a good partner for his typing and his ability to break the cores that Hera has trouble with.

Heracross is very underrated, is a forgotten threat, and is a great pokemon in the current DPP OU metagame. Very anti metagame. (As long as you don't fight Crobat!)

PS:BKC can vouch to the usefulness of Rest/Talk Hera. I also have no idea why Magnezone isn't in B. The Protect Leftovers sets with Toxic or Thunder Wave are good. Choice Specs Magnezone is also pretty good.
 
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I don't see any point in using any set other than scarf Heracross or the restalk bulk up. Scarf Hera is useful utility pokemon, always threatening and restalk bulk up wins some games before they even start.

Why am I using CB/LO Heracross over Breloom or Infernape? They both make better use of free turns. You could argue pursuit, but rotom and gengar aren't switching out of Heracross, so that only leaves Starmie. It's not fast enough to make use of it's different typing (fighting resist, lack of ice/water weakness).

Anyway I'd move a lot of stuff around on the list:
C Rank:
Quagsire - Up
Gallade - Up
Frosslass - Up
(3 very viable and used pokes in the same group as Torterra?)

C+ Rank:
Honchcrow - Down (I'd forgotten this existed)

B- Rank:
Lanturn - Down (Overrated?)
Nidoqueen - Up (Underrated?)

B Rank:
Slowbro - Down
Registeel - Down (This is the OU viability thread xD, also where is Steelix?)
Roserade - Up
Crobat - Up
Dugtrio - Up

A- Rank:
Jolteon - Down
Raikou - Down
("B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche.")

A Rank:
Celebi - Down (It belongs with Shaymin)
Infernape - Up
Gyarados - Up (It belongs next to Dragonite)

A+ Rank:
Zapdos - Down (It's belongs with Gyarados and Dragonite?)
 
The reason why I don't like Scarf Hera is because every other scarfer has better resists or has better utility or better STAB to abuse. U-Turn, Trick, Explosion, Fire Blast, Outrage, Iron Head, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball.

Heracross doesn't need as much of a free turn as Breloom does. Breloom sleeps something, punches something, sub gets broken, then it will have much more trouble getting that second sub for a large amount of the game. Close Combat is consistent stab and Breloom is not a hit and run pokemon like Heracross. It can Pursuit the Celebi. Defensive Rotom might switch out of Heracross fearing the Night Slash when Heracross has status.

It may lack a water resist, but that doesn't mean it can't switch into all the stuff Breloom does and have 2 consistent STAB moves to work with. Heracross doesn't fear random Ice moves like Breloom does, so saying it doesn't have an Ice resist doesn't really matter considering it takes barely anything from weaker ones.

Due note that Rest/Talk LO Heracross can switch into Breloom and win while taking the spore. That is a very rare quality. Infernape and Breloom can meet Gengar on a pivot of their STAB moves, but Heracross doesn't really care because STAB Megahorn does loads. Scizor + Ghost shenanigans can render Breloom unable to get a sub or able to kill something after it puts something to sleep. Heracross? It just spams Megahorn and things start to hurt. I like CB Scizor with Bug Bite > Pursuit alongside CB Heracross as a follow up to abuse stuff like that.

It can abuse its resists because it can pivot on weaker attacks then switch out. It is a very threatening pokemon so it can stay in, or come in on a double switch too. It is kind of like the middle ground of fighting pokemon. Faster than Loom/Machamp, slower than Ape. Jolly Hera can actually beat offensive Cune 1 v 1. Can Infernape do that? No. Can Breloom do that? Maybe if it lives an Ice Beam. Can Machamp do that? More than likely not.

I built 4 Heracross teams and I feel they are solid. There isn't one of them where I would prefer Infernape on because I use Heatran on all 4 teams and I would then become ground weak. I also wouldn't want Breloom on any of them since it doesn't fit the playstyle of the said teams.

If we are moving Gallade up, we need to be moving Heracross up too.
 
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OiawesomeDG said:
Alright so, some little updates!
  • Heracross up to B rank
  • Crobat up to A- rank
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I'm obviously a believer in Brobat but when you consider he needs a spinner to be viable because its constantly switching, it makes you question what his ranking really is. He is definitely A rank with support but if were talking about what he does alone it kinda complicates things. Just my 2 cents.
 
Alakazam for C rank anyone? It can 2HKO just about everything with the right move (Bar a few exceptions such as Snorlax/Blissey or Jirachi/Metagross) at worst, but of course has crippling flaws like that non-existent bulk and vulnerability to priority moves... I mean it's not completely unviable in DPP OU given that it has an analysis for it.
 
WoShiDavid said:
Alakazam for C rank anyone? It can 2HKO just about everything with the right move (Bar a few exceptions such as Snorlax/Blissey or Jirachi/Metagross) at worst, but of course has crippling flaws like that non-existent bulk and vulnerability to priority moves... I mean it's not completely unviable in DPP OU given that it has an analysis for it.
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It does the Substitute game decent enough. It outruns Tyranitar at least, so you get two Focus Blasts off. Behind the Sub, you can either Recover or Encore.
 
Recover on a pokemon that's ohkoed by tackle...

If you're adding Alakazam you could add Sceptile another base 120 speed pokemon with surprising power. The life orb set makes an excellent revenge killer and damage dealer.
 
I always thought it was pretty hard to get a sub with Alakazam due to the lack of resists. Although to be fair, getting one on Starmie, Roserade/Venu, Gengar, Infernape, or Tyranitar wouldn't be hard at all.

Its cool how Sceptile and Alakazam outrun the standard Chesto Rest Kingdra at +1. That is extremely huge.
 
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They both were better pre-Platinum, mainly because of Scizor. I've tried Alakazam and it's not that bad, both I assume both are better right now as opposed to a few years ago because Scizor isn't as common now as it was then (though to replace it, Flygon is everywhere).
 
Possible Changes in the future:
  • 462.png
    for B+ Rank
With its rare ability to trap Steel-types, Magnezone can find a spot on just about any team. It boasts an excellent base 130 Special Attack stat, a great Electric / Steel typing (which grants a resistance to 13 of the 17 types), and useful moves, such as Thunderbolt, Flash Cannon, and Explosion
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    For A+ Rank
Lucario is one of the top offensive threats of DPP OU, boasting high Attack and Special Attack stats, decent Speed, great STAB attacks in Close Combat and Aura Sphere, and many other useful attacking options. Its immunity to Toxic Spikes and numerous 4x and 2x resistances (most notably to Rock-, Dark-, and Dragon-type attacks) give Lucario many opportunities to switch in and wreak havoc on the opposing team.

Discuss
 
Magnezone is definitly B+ Rank. The status protect set is probably the best set in dpp ou right now since it lets it function as a defensive utility and a status platform, so it can do things when it isn't trapping steel types. Protect gives it lefties so it can check Rotom and defensive water pokemon more easily. Scarf and Spec'd Magnezone are decent. I'd actually argue Spec'd Magnezone is a somewhat close second for second best Magnezone set due to its raw power, enough speed to outrun defensive pokemon, explosion, and unpredictability. It puts ton of pressure on Tyranitar since it resists both of its stab moves.

Magnezone @ Leftovers
Trait: Magnet Pull
EVs: 212 HP / 180 SAtk / 116 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Thunder Wave / Toxic
- Protect

If you really want to use Thunder Wave, HP Grass or Ice is okay. Although HP Fire is really important for killing Forry in one hit since if you can't do that you are defeating the purpose in using Magnezone to trap it in the first place. It is generally better to go HP Fire then use Toxic if you are worried about hitting Flygons and grounds. Meanwhile Dragonite dislikes taking Thunder Waves.

The EVs on that Magnezone seem weird but they are actually optimal. They allow you to be bulky with Protect and Lefties, offer plenty of power, and outrun most CB Tyranitar, Quiet Mix Dragonite, 20 speed Breloom, and slow SD Scizors.

Lets not forget that Magnezone has 13 resistences to abuse. Lets also not forget that electric is not the best STAB move on a slow pokemon like Magnezone considering offensive water pokemon still outrun and threaten him. Meanwhile all the checks and counters to Electric types beat Magnezone, but have more trouble with every other Electric type in OU and BL due to their ability to 2hko stuff on the switch before they get hit.
 
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WoShiDavid said:
Alakazam for C rank anyone? It can 2HKO just about everything with the right move (Bar a few exceptions such as Snorlax/Blissey or Jirachi/Metagross) at worst, but of course has crippling flaws like that non-existent bulk and vulnerability to priority moves... I mean it's not completely unviable in DPP OU given that it has an analysis for it.
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Encore / Sub 3 attacks Alakazam are actually pretty fun to play, but the amount of Blissey/Scizor/Jirachi is too damn annoying, B- imo.

I'm also pretty shocked by how low-ranked Snorlax and Roserade are:

Snorlax: An underrated mon but still a pretty good switch to a lot of things like Starmie, Zapdos, Heatran, Suicune or Blissey...I like refering him as an "offensive oriented blissey" and it's a good support for Balanced / Bulky Offensiv teams. The choice band variant is quite fun and can get some nice kills by trapping Starmie/Gengar/Offensive Rotom-A, (too bad it can't have pursuit+selfdestruct damn) and the Curselax is still a threat for some teams that lacks physical fighting-attack (Scizor/Lucario/Heracross are pretty weak to Fire punch on the switch too)
It deserves to be A or A- at least imo.

Roserade: The fact that Roserade is ranked lower than Venusaur is shocking for me. Roserade is the only viable mon in OU who can set-up Toxic Spikes, and he can do that pretty well as a lead. It is also a good support Pokémon in a Fire/Water/Grass core, checking things such SubRoost Zapdos, Jolteon, Starmie or Breloom pretty well, it is also one of the rare viable Spikes user besides Skarmory and Forretress. I admit he is not really threathening as a sweeper but the timid+spikes/LO version are actually not bad and a stabbed leaf storm is quite scary.
A- for me.

Celebi is also pretty overrated io, while being a good Breloom check/Baton pass user, his movepool and his typing makes him in danger in a lot of situations, U-turn teams like Scizor/Flygon/Infernape can play with him even for the Tinkerbell version with no problem.
He is also outshined by Roserade who got Spikes and a better typing for the defensive grass-type and Shaymin which is a way better offensive grass-type for two reasons: Seed flare and no x4 U-turn weakness.
A- or B+ for me, and Shaymin deserves to be A too, it's an awesome stallbreaker and offensive/balanced teams without Skarmory/Scizor+Zapdos/Dragonite will have a tough time checking it.​
 
Morpheus said:
Encore / Sub 3 attacks Alakazam are actually pretty fun to play, but the amount of Blissey/Scizor/Jirachi is too damn annoying, B- imo.

I'm also pretty shocked by how low-ranked Snorlax and Roserade are:

Snorlax: An underrated mon but still a pretty good switch to a lot of things like Starmie, Zapdos, Heatran, Suicune or Blissey...I like refering him as an "offensive oriented blissey" and it's a good support for Balanced / Bulky Offensiv teams. The choice band variant is quite fun and can get some nice kills by trapping Starmie/Gengar/Offensive Rotom-A, (too bad it can't have pursuit+selfdestruct damn) and the Curselax is still a threat for some teams that lacks physical fighting-attack (Scizor/Lucario/Heracross are pretty weak to Fire punch on the switch too)
It deserves to be A or A- at least imo.

Roserade: The fact that Roserade is ranked lower than Venusaur is shocking for me. Roserade is the only viable mon in OU who can set-up Toxic Spikes, and he can do that pretty well as a lead. It is also a good support Pokémon in a Fire/Water/Grass core, checking things such SubRoost Zapdos, Jolteon, Starmie or Breloom pretty well, it is also one of the rare viable Spikes user besides Skarmory and Forretress. I admit he is not really threathening as a sweeper but the timid+spikes/LO version are actually not bad and a stabbed leaf storm is quite scary.
A- for me.

Celebi is also pretty overrated io, while being a good Breloom check/Baton pass user, his movepool and his typing makes him in danger in a lot of situations, U-turn teams like Scizor/Flygon/Infernape can play with him even for the Tinkerbell version with no problem.
He is also outshined by Roserade who got Spikes and a better typing for the defensive grass-type and Shaymin which is a way better offensive grass-type for two reasons: Seed flare and no x4 U-turn weakness.
A- or B+ for me, and Shaymin deserves to be A too, it's an awesome stallbreaker and offensive/balanced teams without Skarmory/Scizor+Zapdos/Dragonite will have a tough time checking it.​
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Just a small nitpick but Forretres and Nidoqueen are also viable spikes users. Not sure if Forretres usually carries toxic spikes though because i don't play fourth gen OU alot.
 
backing up Roserade for A-. The TSpikes lead set is pretty fucking scary on offensive teams. B rank sounds way too low for it, as it's pretty versatile. It fits on most teams except like the hardest stall, depending on the set. You can go Calm on more defensive teams and soak up hits from stuff like Suicune which are hard to switch into. While it faces competition from Celebi, Shaymin, and Venusaur, it has many unique traits that justify using it despite inferior stats (except for Special Attack).

Speaking of B rank, I think it needs a good clean up. Some things in it just don't fit at all. Registeel in particular strikes me as out of place, as it's outdone by pretty much every other Steel in most regards. It doesn't Spike like Skarmory or Forre, it doesn't Spin, it doesn't PHaze, it doesn't have Bronzong's offensive presence (lol) or Abilities. You could argue it can boost unlike others, but in a tier where the most popular Pokemon is Heatran I can't see it go very far. (not to mention the Zapdos, Infernape, etc.) What it does that others can't is switch into stuff like Specs Kingdra more easily thanks to that Special Defense but it's not enough to justify using it over other Steels. I'd say remove from list or C rank

Empoleon needs to be at least B+. The Agility sets are extremely threatening to offensive teams as it's hard to revenge kill and is powerful enough to net some OHKOes on most offensive mons. It does very well against most teams except really hard stalls. It's not a one trick pony either, as the Lead set can be effective on some teams

I think Machamp should be B+ too. While it's not so effective as a non lead or as versatile a lead as Azelf, it's a pretty threatening lead that works most of the time for offensive teams. It has many insta win match ups (Tyranitar...) and not many insta lose, especially since it's hard to predict the item (Lum Berry vs Focus Sash) so sometimes you have to take a guess. It's not as effective as it used to be so B+ sounds fine.

Smeargle doesn't deserve D rank imo. If you pair it with a teammate that beats Taunt leads (like Scizor) it becomes a very effective lead that gets rocks against most offenses (which is acceptable when using a suicide lead) and is deadly against stall leads (or just slow leads in general). C+ sounds fair to it, although you could bump it to B- if you're feeling generous

also I'd bump gyara into A+ cos it's rly fucking powerful but that's just me!!

oh yeah and lucario in A+ and mag in B+ sound fine
 
I use magnezone a lot and I think B+ might be a bit too high for a few reasons.

The only reason I'm using magnezone is to support sweepers. In it's own right it's a fairly sucky mon, despite having 13 resistances it really doesn't check a whole lot and despite it's impressive special attack stat it's quite easy to wall. It also has terrible speed and cannot sweep.

Usually it's sole purpose (on my teams) is to trap skarm and the lack of enemy skarms is what I build my teams around. Just because it has magnet pull doesn't mean it can trap all steels and it's not beating things like Heatran, CM raichi, Lucario, Metagross, Bronzong etc. Trapping forry is obviously nice, but the standard forry set is set up fodder anyway, so it's not something I focus on. The removal of scarf raichi and cb scizor is also very noteworthy (despite their dwindling popularity) as these two mons can completely prevent certain sweepers like dd tyranitar. The problem is they both love to u-turn, making them difficult to trap and you often have to try very hard to force a trapping situation. So usually I only add magnezone to my teams to remove skarm.

Even modest max sp.atk Magnezone doesn't reliably OHKO Skarmory and Forretress. This is so annoying because they often get an extra layer of spikes up, no matter how you situate the trap.

If I compare Magnezone to the other common trapper Dugtrio, who traps a lot more stuff and nicely the stuff it traps (Tyranitar, Heatran, Blissey etc.) all check the same kinds of pokemon (e.g. electric types), making it easy to exploit. I think Dugtrio might actually trap more steel types than magnezone. Alright Dugtrio is even more worthless than Magnezone without it's ability, but I don't think Magnzone should be any higher than Dugtrio on the list.

While I don't think Magnezone is that useful in general, trapping Skarmory is a big deal and there are many ways to exploit teams that are reliant on Skarmory. So a move out of the C ranks is probably required, but I don't think it's a B+.

But I'm kind of one dimensional and I know some people have used it in unique ways e.g. on stall to psuedo spin block forry, and stuff like that which I've never tried.
 
252+ SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 308-366 (92.2 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Magnezone Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 332-392 (93.7 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Seems pretty reliable considering Stealth Rock, and they might not even be Careful or Skarm may run speed EVs too. Some Metagross are Bullet Punch/Meteor Mash/Explosion/Stealth Rock which the Protect Magnezone set can exploit.

Lucario getting trapped is unnecessary. It is a steel type, but Magnezone based teams do not need to worry about removing him as much as the sturdier steels to abuse their sweepers. Heatran getting trapped is somewhat unnecessary since some of the abusers for Magnezone tend to be dragons, Curse Snorlax, Gengar, and Earth Power Shaymin.

I honestly think Dugtrio is arguably worse than Magnezone. Dugtrio is a liability vs Scarf Heatran, which has been becoming popular. It is also frail with one viable set, which is Choice Band. Its defensive typing leaves much to be desired. It has some trouble with Bulky Tyranitars and bulkier steels. It can't beat DD Shuca Tar. Magnezone just has some redeeming qualities if it had a bad matchup. Dugtrio is just a lot more deadweight at times or risky.

I look at Dugtrio, then look at Hippowdon. Then I wonder why im using a Dugtrio team. Im just kidding, but I really hate Dugtrio. xD
 
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