XY UU Viability Ranking Thread

[KM]

Thats indeed very a similar situation because i dont agree with those either. If something forces the entire tier to adapt itself and makes previous uu staples like umbreon and snorlax drop in both usage and viability it is metagame defining and thats what makes it one of the best pokemon in the tier. Youre absolutely insane if you think this is not an important factor.

Once again, just because it's the -best- (read: most ubiquitous) special wall in the tier doesn't determine viability. While there may be a weak correlation between Usage and Viability, there is by no means any evidence of causation. There are plenty of threats that are used far more than they should be, and plenty of criminally underused threats that are in fact extraordinarily viable. There are a great deal of factors besides Viability that determine usage; whether it can fit on all different types of teams (check), whether it has very little competition from similar pokes with the same role (check), whether it performs a role usable by all teams (check), and whether the hype surrounding the poke is more than or less than its objective worth (check).

Secondly, part of Florges' influence and usage on the metagame has to do with the fact that it's practically the only (bar Aroma) viable fairy in the entire tier. When you have that kind of corner on the market, of course the usage is going to be incredibly high, of course the metagame is going to "adapt" to you - it's not adapting to the introduction of the pokemon, it's adapting itself to the introduction of the type, which manifests itself in Florges, as it's the only really good fairy. In other words, if Darmanitan, Entei, and Arcanine were all taken out of the picture and banned to BL for whatever reason, and Victini became the only strong physical fire wallbreaker, it wouldn't increase its viability. It would increase its usability and its commonness, as teams who would have put one of the other threats in its place move on to using Victini, as it's the only available option. It's not like the UU metagame, or any metagame, is constructed proportionally by the amount of offensive and defensive threats in the tier, it's constructed based on their relative effectiveness.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Once again, just because it's the -best- (read: most ubiquitous) special wall in the tier doesn't determine viability. While there may be a weak correlation between Usage and Viability, there is by no means any evidence of causation. There are plenty of threats that are used far more than they should be, and plenty of criminally underused threats that are in fact extraordinarily viable. There are a great deal of factors besides Viability that determine usage; whether it can fit on all different types of teams (check), whether it has very little competition from similar pokes with the same role (check), whether it performs a role usable by all teams (check), and whether the hype surrounding the poke is more than or less than its objective worth (check).

Secondly, part of Florges' influence and usage on the metagame has to do with the fact that it's practically the only (bar Aroma) viable fairy in the entire tier. When you have that kind of corner on the market, of course the usage is going to be incredibly high, of course the metagame is going to "adapt" to you - it's not adapting to the introduction of the pokemon, it's adapting itself to the introduction of the type, which manifests itself in Florges, as it's the only really good fairy. In other words, if Darmanitan, Entei, and Arcanine were all taken out of the picture and banned to BL for whatever reason, and Victini became the only strong physical fire wallbreaker, it wouldn't increase its viability. It would increase its usability and its commonness, as teams who would have put one of the other threats in its place move on to using Victini, as it's the only available option. It's not like the UU metagame, or any metagame, is constructed proportionally by the amount of offensive and defensive threats in the tier, it's constructed based on their relative effectiveness.

Being the best at fending off a huge portion of the metagame and provide amazing support to any team doesnt determine viability? Holy shit are you guys making shit up just for the sake of an argument? Stop nitpicking the ''usage'' because all i said about this was that florges has been consistently topping the usage stats, that was ONE point not my entire point. It doesnt matter if florges is the only fairy type, the fact is its a metagame defining threat and i already said why countless of time, it fits the requirements for S rank, and thats why it should be S. Im not gonna argue about this anymore as i am tired of repeating the same things over and over again.

 

[LeekSlap/ChewyDonuts]

What counters or checks Florges? I wanna say Metagross but he has an awful typing that can easily be used against him. All the offensive steels are hanging out at OU and decent offensive poison types are rare. Alot of physical sweepers's attacks are resisted by Florges or are Scarfed and have to switch to hit effectively. Just something to discuss. For Umbreon, I honestly never thought it was good. Maybe it's because I used a Curse set but Dark doesn't seem to be a good defensive typing as what it resists ALWAYS carries Focus Blast or something like that. Also, HYDREIGON IS BACK BABY! Yay..whoop...he's just coming back for a while isn't he? :(

 

[lol kingler]

What counters or checks Florges? I wanna say Metagross but he has an awful typing that can easily be used against him. All the offensive steels are hanging out at OU and decent offensive poison types are rare. Alot of physical sweepers's attacks are resisted by Florges or are Scarfed and have to switch to hit effectively.

There are a plethora of good offensive poison types, some of which are some of the best offensive pokemon in the tier. Florges can effectively fend off Mienshao and Heracross depending on their sets, but still get wrecked by Fire types like Entei, Darmanitan and Victini.

 

[Limitless]

Being the best at fending off a huge portion of the metagame and provide amazing support to any team doesnt determine viability? Holy shit are you guys making shit up just for the sake of an argument? Stop nitpicking the ''usage'' because all i said about this was that florges has been consistently topping the usage stats, that was ONE point not my entire point. It doesnt matter if florges is the only fairy type, the fact is its a metagame defining threat and i already said why countless of time, it fits the requirements for S rank, and thats why it should be S. Im not gonna argue about this anymore as i am tired of repeating the same things over and over again.

You need to cool off.

There is no way in hell Florges should be S rank, and frankly, I'm not even considering it. The only two possible ranks for Florges are A+ and A. Any other posts will likely be ignored. There are clear disadvantages to Florges, specifically its ability for free switch-ins from Poison and Fire types. And its ability to counter physical threats is often overplayed. It can really only counter most physical scarf sets. Any banded sets are completely out of the picture. And let's be real, Florges isn't countering Mega Houndoom.

 

[Ununhexium]

Yeah florges is A rank. It may have the SDef of a God and a good support move pool, bit it has its issues. The one that pisses me off the most, is its lack of ability. Synchronize on umbreon may not the the greatest thing ever but at least its something.

Now while it may have the SDef of a frickin god, it has the phisical defense of a caterpie (its an exaggeration, don't even comment) it can counter physical scarf sets. Whoopty doo. So can everything else given a free switch. Its is absolutely imperative that she runs Def EVs so she isn't instantly screwed by physical attackers and psyshock.

I'm not trying to make it sound like what, I was just pointing out its flaws. A rank seems appropriate.

Now someone please respond I still have like an hour in this car ride to New York

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Ok then, if florges is staying where it is then umbreon's place needs to be seriously revaluated. I would be fine with it staying A+ if florges rose but since this inst the case it becomes kinda like the victini/darmanitan situation. Dark typing just inst good defensively and makes it too vulnerable to a huge part of the tier while florges has very useful resistances and few weakness, one of which is extremely rare. Umbreon's only form of offense is reliant on the opponent attack, meaning that it has a hard time damaging the likes of porygon z and houndoom who can easily setup on it. While umbreon fares somewhat well against the nidos as long as it doesnt switch directly on focus blast its still far from a counter and it just doenst really cover anything that florges doesnt already.

 

[Limitless]

That is something to discuss then. I want you guys to evaluate and discuss whether there is a clear viability difference between Florges and Umbreon. In other words, should one Pokemon be placed above the other in rankings?

 

[newfren]

Umbreon is a much better answer to the nidos than florges is considering they need to both be running focus blast and hit 2 of them which is literally a 50/50. It also handles the fire types in the tier better (except for mega doom) in that it doesn't give them free switch-ins because it can hit them with a foul play if they mispredict. It also has a better ability than florges in synchronize.

Dark typing is worse than fairy though - being u-turn weak is really unfortunate, as is being fighting weak in a tier with a few excellent fighting types hanging around - which don't mind switching in on the resisted foul play and scare umbreon out, while florges can donk them with a moonblast coming off of an actually pretty excellent 112 spa.

I'd probably put them at the same ranking. The only reason to use one over the other is team synergy.

 

[Petrico94]

Florges
78/68/154
+Dragon immune
+Resists Fighting, Bug and Dark
+Only weak to steal and poison
+Moonblast (rarely Psychic, some grass attacks)
+112 special attack
+Calm Mind
-Tends to be vulnerable physically
-Useless abilities
-No fast recovery

Umbreon
95/110/130
+Psychic immune
+Synchronize ability
+Foul Play and Payback (screw speed and attack)
+Great defense stats on both sides
+Curse
+Moonlight recovery
+Baton Pass
+Yawn
+Snarl
+Taunt
-Only resists Dark and Ghosts
-Weak to Fighting, U-turn and Fairy

Both
~Wish+Protect
~Aromatherapy/Heal Bell
~Toxic
~Sleep talk

Umbreon gets some more support moves and has a better defense spread while Florges has the better type and slightly better at being special. Moonlight is better than Wish and takes less space if all you want to do is heal yourself but at the same time Umbreon has better health too so sharing wish is more effective. Florges is dragon immune if Kyurem or Flygon show up but I feel psychic attacks are more common in UU. Umbreon depending on his stab doesn't mind his low attack stat or can use Curse to make Payback better while Florges doesn't have much space for Calm Mind

 

[lol kingler]

What's the consensus on the best Umbreon set? I think it has to be the standard Wish Protect Foul Play Heal Bell. In Petrico94's post it's somewhat clear that Umbreon can do a bit more than Florges in terms of support, but I feel like other pokes can use those moves better (taunt, baton pass) leaving no real reason to use Umbreon over Florges unless you have a glaring Psychic weakness. A cleric and wish passer is something that can fit on most teams but a mediocre typing leaves it with a B+ rank

 

[Sam]

Ok then, if florges is staying where it is then umbreon's place needs to be seriously revaluated. I would be fine with it staying A+ if florges rose but since this inst the case it becomes kinda like the victini/darmanitan situation. Dark typing just inst good defensively and makes it too vulnerable to a huge part of the tier while florges has very useful resistances and few weakness, one of which is extremely rare. Umbreon's only form of offense is reliant on the opponent attack, meaning that it has a hard time damaging the likes of porygon z and houndoom who can easily setup on it. While umbreon fares somewhat well against the nidos as long as it doesnt switch directly on focus blast its still far from a counter and it just doenst really cover anything that florges doesnt already.

As if Florges is going to be getting past Houndoom as well. There's quite a few reasons why, in my opinion, Umbreon should stay at A+ while Florges should be moved down to A.

Firstly, when you talk about Florges's weaknesses, one of which being "extremely rare", I think you're sort of underestimating how severe they are. The first one, Poison, is obviously bad for a special wall as two of the best special attackers in the tier have Poison STAB. Most Nidos don't really have room to run Focus Blast most of the time, and even for those who do, it's asking a lot to rely on a 70% accuracy move.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 200-237 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Umbreon can stall out Nidoking with Protect + Wish, and that's assuming that it would hit every time anyway. I'd say walling the best special attackers in the meta is a pretty significant thing to boast for Umbreon. The Poison weakness also makes Florges vulnerable to Roserade, another prominent special attacker in UU. As for the other weakness, Steel, it's pretty significant in that it makes Florges very weak to a Pokemon like Jirachi which can essentially switch in to Florges with impunity, and Florges is easily forced out by it. Metagross is in a similar boat, since it can take Moonblasts for days. Umbreon, on the other hand, can usually take on those 2 mons pretty easy due to its access to Foul Play. Its Steel weakness isn't too significant, but it is a hindrance. To say Steel attacks are "extremely rare" ignores cases of those 2 mons, and things like M-Aggron as well.

Another big knock for Florges is how easy some of the top physical attackers in UU can switch on it. Umbreon's access to Foul Play is much, much more important than you seem to think it is. Florges invites mons such as Victini, Darmanitan, the aforemention Jirachi and Metagross, Arcanine, Durant, Entei, among others. You get the point. Umbreon, on the other hand, has a smaller list of mons (namely fighting types, although even Mienshao/Absol will be taking a lot from a Foul Play), and that's why it isn't perfect. Honestly though, I'd say subjectively Umbreon covers more important threats and has less vulnerability to allowing prominent physical the switchin.

I'm not going to say Florges is bad, though. It still does cover a decent amount in the meta-game, and its CM set can be nasty in certain situations. But, due to the aforementioned downfalls, I think it's good in A. Umbreon, being slightly better at Florges job (though doing better and worse against specific things) warrants it staying in A+.

 

[trc]

Nidoking and Nidoqueen are such prominent wallbreakers at the moment that Umbreon is definitely preferred on some teams over Florges, whereas things like Heracross are dealt with worse by Umbreon than by Florges, so they are both special walls with only really a few differences over each other in terms of the Pokemon they wall. There are other differences of course, like Florges's larger offensive presence, and Umbreon's Foul Play, but in the end it doesn't largely affect their role. With such similarities and few differences, those of which often make up for the others, I believe they should be placed in the same rank, regardless of which rank they are eventually placed in.

 

[lol kingler]

I disagree with with the notion that Umbreon is really that great of a check to Nidoking. Yes, if it's at full health or if has to Nidoking switch in to it, Umbreon can effectively stall it out. However, with rocks up and counting two leftovers recoveries, Focus Blast is still a clean 2HKO. Even a combination of Sludge Wave and Focus Blast do at least 80%, meaning you have to keep Umbreon very healthy to be effective against Nido. Yes, Focus Blast has shaky accuracy and low PP but I don't think you can't put checking the Nidos as one Umbreon's positives.

 

[Mahmudkipz]

One thing that makes Umbreon so good as a Sp Def wall is its immunity to Psyshock, meaning that special attackers cannot hit it on the physical side. STAB Foul Play is a godsend as it allows Umbreon to deal damage without investing in attacking stats, as well as scaring frail physical attackers from switching in or setting up (Mega Absol in particular, 3hko'd at +0, 2hko'd at +2 even resisted lol). Weakness to fighting is unfortunate, but the most commonly used fighting moves like HJK and Close Combat have certain flaws, the former move has to beware of protect and the latter lowers the user's defenses making them easier to revenge kill.

 

[DaKakz]

I think another advantage Umbreon has over Florges is the fact that it can punish switch-ins with its STAB Foul Play :
4 Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 265-313 (75.4 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 260-308 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

4 Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 178-211 (47.8 - 56.7%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO

Whereas Florges gives free switch-ins to these 'mons and will have to sacrifice itself or another teammate in order for its team to regain momentum, especially if the switch in isn't Choice locked.

 

[Ununhexium]

If you carry a solid check to the nidos, forges is preferred. If you don't have another thing that can remove nidos, umbreon is preferred. For A rank they either have flaws or require team support. Florges needs something to defeat the nidos,has shitty defense, and no useful ability. Umbreon has less SDef, little form of offense, and a worse defensive rank. They boh fit perfectly in A or A+ rank, as neither really outclasses the other.

 

[DaKakz]

If you carry a solid check to the nidos, forges is preferred. If you don't have another thing that can remove nidos, umbreon is preferred. For A rank they either have flaws or require team support. Florges needs something to defeat the nidos,has shitty defense, and no useful ability. Umbreon has less SDef, little form of offense, and a worse defensive rank. They boh fit perfectly in A or A+ rank, as neither really outclasses the other.

Problem is, there is no "solid check" to the Nidos apart from Umbreon, SpD Mew and SpD Porygon2, so unless you want to put two special walls in your teams just so you can include Florges I don't really see the point of choosing it over Umbreon.

 

[Ununhexium]

Iirc from the smog article a check can win every time if given a free switch and a counter can manually switch in and win every time.

EDIT: cresselia can check/counter them pretty well

Another edit: this thread should get a sticky

 

[UU ALL DAY]

Problem is, there is no "solid check" to the Nidos apart from Umbreon, SpD Mew and SpD Porygon2, so unless you want to put two special walls in your teams just so you can include Florges I don't really see the point of choosing it over Umbreon.

To be fair, there aren't that many "solid checks" to Victini considering the versatility. It's all about the resisted switch ins

 

[Petrico94]

Ok Cacturn is a good Slowbro counter if it doesn't have ice beam and makes a half decent suicide lead with spikes but is it really -B rank? It has awful defense, awful speed and it's typing isn't good and it's best feature is that no one will see it enough to know what moves it gets.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Problem is, there is no "solid check" to the Nidos apart from Umbreon, SpD Mew and SpD Porygon2, so unless you want to put two special walls in your teams just so you can include Florges I don't really see the point of choosing it over Umbreon.

Whats wrong with putting 2 special walls in one team, specially when one of them is the best pokemon in the game and can do far more than just wall things even when using its defensive set (mew)?

 

[EonX]

I've already made a big, long post about these two, so I'm going to spare you guys (and myself) from doing that again. TL;DR version:

Florges: Weak to Poison and 3 of the most common special attackers in the tier have STAB Poison-type moves. Two of them are capable of setting up entry hazards to hamper Florges's team. Steel weakness is more of an inconvenience with shit like Metagross and Jirachi around. It can kinda check Fighting-types, but wallbreaking Fighting-types can still push through it with only a little prior damage (usually taken care of by Rocks + 5-10% prior damage) It has a solid defensive typing (much better than Umbreon's) as well as a decent offensive presence thanks to base 112 SpA. Very solid, but you do generally have to stack another special wall like P2, SpD Mew, or even Umbreon to ensure two of the top wallbreakers can't lay waste to Florges's team.

Umbreon: Much better overall defenses lets it heavily invest in Special Defense without many drawbacks, unlike Florges (it actually has more overall bulk than the most optimal Florges spread) Don't believe me? I'll show you some calcs at the end to prove this point. Foul Play keeps most physical attackers attackers from coming in for free, but it will struggle to hold off special attackers, whereas Florges's Moonblast can sometimes deter them due to the 30% SpA drop. Dark is a worse defensive typing than Fairy as Fighting-types are super dangerous while Umbreon will ironically struggle to threaten Florges in any way. The biggest pro for Umbreon outside of its ability to handle the Nidos is its much higher HP, which allows for bigger Wishes. Another edge is Synchronize. Though situational, being able to pass on burns or poison to your inflicter and be able to cure yourself with Heal Bell can prove very helpful.

Overall, I think both are solid A rank Pokemon. Florges has the better defensive typing and offensive presence, but really struggles with the Nidos, thus forcing its team to often have to run another special wall to beat them. Umbreon has better overall bulk, better ability, and Foul Play to keep most physical attackers from setting up on it. However, it has an unfortunate weakness to Fighting- and Bug-type moves while having no real way to threaten special sweepers that can setup. Now for those calcs I promised. This will use the typical 248/8/252+ spread on Umbreon and the 248/224/36+ spread that is generally the most optimal for Florges:

Calcs

vs. Jolly Choice Scarf Victini V-create
Florges: 71 - 83.5% -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Umbreon: 57.2 - 67.4% -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

vs. Timid Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast

Florges: 49.5 - 58.4% -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Umbreon: 44.5 - 52.6% -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

So, to ensure she isn't completely overwhelmed by physical attacks, Florges will actually have less special bulk than Umbreon and will still take more damage from physical attacks than Umbreon (assuming neutral damage for both)

EonEdit: So much for keeping it short... that didn't last long lol

 

[panamaxis]

I agree that Florges can only be either A or A+. Now, florges is amazing. It really is. But you know exactly what it's going to do and there exists a substantial amount of pokemon that can take advantage of it, so I think A rank would be preferable to A+ rank for florges. Florges is the type of pokemon you have to consider every time you're teambuilding but it's not something should be consistently destroying you as, yeah, there are are lots pokemon that can easily take advantage of it.

So, in my opinion, because florges can be a liability in some cases, I think it deserves A rank rather than A+.

I think Umbreon should probably just be one rank below wherever florges ends up, because it walls some nice stuff but mono dark isn't as great as mono fairy, and seeing as umbreon has to (usually) run foul play as its attacking move (due to its mediocre attacking stats), it's easier to take advantage of than florges.

Florges for A rank, Umbreon for A- rank would be my vote.

 

[DaKakz]

Let's just recap what points we have gathered from the above posts, I'll just put them as a list of pros and cons:

Umbreon:

+ Higher HP = bigger wishes
+ Better physical defense
+ Can punish any physical attacker who switches in, provided it does not resist Foul Play
+ Can wall the Nidos and Roserade, contrary to Florges
+ Better ability in Synchronize, which allows it to Toxic-stall walls that rely on Toxic such as Alomomola, Slowbro, Gastrodon and Quagsire

- Provides free switch-ins to Mienshao, Heracross, Machamp and Scrafty
- Gives the opportunity to CM Slowbro and CroCune to come and start setting up

Florges:

+ Better defensive typing
+ Can semi-wall fighting types
+ Has a 30% chance to drop the SpA of 'mons who want to come in on it

- Useless ability
- Gives free switch-ins to Darmanitan, Victini, Entei and other Fire types
- Gives free switch-ins to Metagross and Jirachi
- Gives free switch-ins to Nidoking, Nidoqueen and Roserade

There we go.

As for my vote, I vote both of them A Rank.

IMO Umbreon is obviously better but it still has enough cons to make it A and not A+.