Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[Over Zealous]

People keep saying that banning Scoliopede won't change Baton Pass that much, and instead of providing solid evidence why ninjask would be awful, you've just said Scoliopede is the only thing introduced to BP since gen 5. Yes, banning Scoliopede makes BP teams lives much harder against offensive teams (which can already deal with full BP). If we're banning BP teams on the basis that it determines wins on matchup against certain play styles, such as stall, banning Scoliopede would achieve nothing.

Your argument also implies that full Baton Pass teams weren't ban worthy in gen 5. The only reason full BP wasn't suspected last gen, was beacuse there was so much other broken stuff to suspect all throughout the generation as we delt with the power creep, and because full BP wasn't the only thing that shitted on stall. Honestly the entire generation screwed stall over, and thus BP was the least of its problems. The other thing that has changed since gen 5 is that more and more people are using stall teams, and because of this, BP teams can be much more succesful on the ladder than last gen.

Not only have I explained several times, but many others have thoroughly discussed why Ninjask is inferior and completely irrelevant in this discussion. I'm sorry you choose to blatantly ignore the explanations. It's actually depressing people are trying to logically and fairly class Ninjask with Scolipede. lel

Banning Scolipede wouldn't just make BP lives harder against offensive teams, but all archetypes. Without Scolipede, you do not have an overwhelming support Pokemon that reliably boosts two stats simultaneously, Speed freely, and able to do so many times over the course of the match.

Even if you limit Baton Pass to 3 or 4 Pokemon, Stall and other archetypes still must factor Baton Pass as a legitimate archetype and threatlist. Only, Stall and other playstyles must factor in Scolipede's ridiculous auto-support, 100% reliability, and functionality, alongside Sylveon, Espeon and/or Smeargle. The idea is to simply rebalance the Baton Pass archetype, not kill it entirely, otherwise a blanket ban on Baton Pass itself would have already been instigated. We've all admitted Scolipede's undeniable, auto-boosting and reliable support, and recognize it as "the biggest offender" and by directly banning it, the Baton Pass playstyle thus becomes more manageable.

My argument clearly states that: Baton Pass wasn't ban worthy in Gen 5, and with all the hyper offensive new threats like Talonflame, Megas, etc, it still isn't ban worthy. BP didn't dominate the ladder or overcentralize the metagame last Gen because there didn't exist a Pokemon that'd simultaneously auto-ensure Speed initiative for the entire team while boosting Def, and able to restart the chain numerous times.

Note: I did not state a Baton Pass clause cannot work. No one, not even the OU Council, knows the best solution as of now, and no single person can know. I'm only skeptical it's a more simple and efficient solution than simply banning the very root problem: Scolipede.

 

[Dread Arceus]

Not only have I explained several times, but many others have thoroughly discussed why Ninjask is inferior and completely irrelevant in this discussion. I'm sorry you choose to blatantly ignore the explanations. It's actually depressing people are trying to logically and fairly class Ninjask with Scolipede. lel

Banning Scolipede wouldn't just make BP lives harder against offensive teams, but all archetypes. Without Scolipede, you do not have an overwhelming support Pokemon that reliably boosts two stats simultaneously, Speed freely, and able to do so many times over the course of the match.

Even if you limit Baton Pass to 3 or 4 Pokemon, Stall and other archetypes still must factor Baton Pass as a legitimate archetype and threatlist. Only, Stall and other playstyles must factor in Scolipede's ridiculous auto-support, 100% reliability, and functionality, alongside Sylveon, Espeon and/or Smeargle. The idea is to simply rebalance the Baton Pass archetype, not kill it entirely, otherwise a blanket ban on Baton Pass itself would have already been instigated. We've all admitted Scolipede's undeniable, auto-boosting and reliable support, and recognize it as "the biggest offender" and by directly banning it, the Baton Pass playstyle thus becomes more manageable.

My argument clearly states that: Baton Pass wasn't ban worthy in Gen 5, and with all the hyper offensive new threats like Talonflame, Megas, etc, it still isn't ban worthy. BP didn't dominate the ladder or overcentralize the metagame last Gen because there didn't exist a Pokemon that'd simultaneously auto-ensure Speed initiative for the entire team while boosting Def, and able to restart the chain the many times.

Note: I did not state a Baton Pass clause cannot work. No one, not even the OU Council, knows the best solution as of now, and no single person can know. I'm only skeptical it's a more simple and efficient solution than simply banning the very root problem: Scolipede.

OH, AND BOLDING YOUR WORDS DOESN'T MAKE THEM ANY MORE TRUE

There's a multitude of reasons BP is so much stronger this Gen, and Scolipede's just a single piece of the puzzle. If we wanted to ban specific Pokemon to bring BP back to its Gen 5 level, we would have to ban Mr. Mime, Sylveon, Mega Scizor, Mega Mawile, AND Speed Boost Sylveon, as they're all new or redone tools that make BP just that much stronger. Keep in mind that this also isn't Gen 5; LO and Choice items don't make up half of people's teams, Rain-boosted Hydro Pumps aren't a major point of the tier, and random Scarfers/Chlorophyll users that can catch speed boosters are pretty rare. In addition, Perish Song, one of the best stops to BP, has all but vanished from the tier since Celebi and Politoed declined heavily in usage.
Basically what I'm saying is, you're way overthinking this when the most logical solution is simply to limit the amount of BP users on a team-if Scolipede is as broken as you think it is, then surely BP would have no problem surviving such a nerf, yes?

 

[The_Derpy_Chicken]

Not only have I explained several times, but many others have thoroughly discussed why Ninjask is inferior and completely irrelevant in this discussion. I'm sorry you choose to blatantly ignore the explanations. It's actually depressing people are trying to logically and fairly class Ninjask with Scolipede. lel

Banning Scolipede wouldn't just make BP lives harder against offensive teams, but all archetypes. Without Scolipede, you do not have an overwhelming support Pokemon that reliably boosts two stats simultaneously, Speed freely, and able to do so many times over the course of the match.

Even if you limit Baton Pass to 3 or 4 Pokemon, Stall and other archetypes still must factor Baton Pass as a legitimate archetype and threatlist. Only, Stall and other playstyles must factor in Scolipede's ridiculous auto-support, 100% reliability, and functionality, alongside Sylveon, Espeon and/or Smeargle. The idea is to simply rebalance the Baton Pass archetype, not kill it entirely, otherwise a blanket ban on Baton Pass itself would have already been instigated. We've all admitted Scolipede's undeniable, auto-boosting and reliable support, and recognize it as "the biggest offender" and by directly banning it, the Baton Pass playstyle thus becomes more manageable.

My argument clearly states that: Baton Pass wasn't ban worthy in Gen 5, and with all the hyper offensive new threats like Talonflame, Megas, etc, it still isn't ban worthy. BP didn't dominate the ladder or overcentralize the metagame last Gen because there didn't exist a Pokemon that'd simultaneously auto-ensure Speed initiative for the entire team while boosting Def, and able to restart the chain the many times.

Note: I did not state a Baton Pass clause cannot work. No one, not even the OU Council, knows the best solution as of now, and no single person can know. I'm only skeptical it's a more simple and efficient solution than simply banning the very root problem: Scolipede.

Also note how he has provided us with the exact same arguments at least five times. And that whole, "No one person can know the best solution," thing? That's completely not true. People can know the best solution. He's clearly not included. The best solution is, as far as I can see, not one that is simple and efficient, but one that, in this particular scenario, doesn't change game mechanics, makes BP viable but not broken or underwhelming, and has absolutely no collateral. Banning Scolipede or one of his sets will have no change to game mechanic, will possibly make BP manageable... and have a fair deal of collateral. So 1.5/3 points for that.

 

[Galladium]

Baton Pass Espeon isn't broken on its own and has uses outside of BP chains. If you want to know more, you can read the thread you've just posted in.

If a Poke has a broken set (BP chains break the game) Smogon has set a precedent of banning Pokes with sets that don't break the game in OU. Why? Every Poke can run a moveset that isn't broken. Rest/Sleep Talk/Toxic/Confusion Mewtwo isn't broken (and is even bad) and it's not in OU because a simple ban is better than a complex one. Why ban Speed Boost + Blaziken when we can ban all Blaziken? It's simpler. Removing Scolipede from the BP chain fixes the problem completely.

Why the double standard for Espeon?

 

[Mango Smoothie]

Why the double standard for Espeon?

i hope that wasn't a serious question, but for 'competetively viable sets', Mewtwo is uber material. Espeon on Full Baton Pass chains is the only 'broken' thing about it. And even then it is just part of the bigger problem that needs to be dealt with.

 

[Slayer95]

Not only have I explained several times, but many others have thoroughly discussed why Ninjask is inferior and completely irrelevant in this discussion. I'm sorry you choose to blatantly ignore the explanations. It's actually depressing people are trying to logically and fairly class Ninjask with Scolipede. lel

Banning Scolipede wouldn't just make BP lives harder against offensive teams, but all archetypes. Without Scolipede, you do not have an overwhelming support Pokemon that reliably boosts two stats simultaneously, Speed freely, and able to do so many times over the course of the match.

Even if you limit Baton Pass to 3 or 4 Pokemon, Stall and other archetypes still must factor Baton Pass as a legitimate archetype and threatlist. Only, Stall and other playstyles must factor in Scolipede's ridiculous auto-support, 100% reliability, and functionality, alongside Sylveon, Espeon and/or Smeargle. The idea is to simply rebalance the Baton Pass archetype, not kill it entirely, otherwise a blanket ban on Baton Pass itself would have already been instigated. We've all admitted Scolipede's undeniable, auto-boosting and reliable support, and recognize it as "the biggest offender" and by directly banning it, the Baton Pass playstyle thus becomes more manageable.

My argument clearly states that: Baton Pass wasn't ban worthy in Gen 5, and with all the hyper offensive new threats like Talonflame, Megas, etc, it still isn't ban worthy. BP didn't dominate the ladder or overcentralize the metagame last Gen because there didn't exist a Pokemon that'd simultaneously auto-ensure Speed initiative for the entire team while boosting Def, and able to restart the chain numerous times.

Note: I did not state a Baton Pass clause cannot work. No one, not even the OU Council, knows the best solution as of now, and no single person can know. I'm only skeptical it's a more simple and efficient solution than simply banning the very root problem: Scolipede.

Let "Scorpionede" be a pokemon introduced in 7th gen that knows Speed Boost, and has prominent physical bulk and average special bulk. It's able to reliable pass twice as many Special Defense boosts as Scolipede passes Defense boosts. Would you argue that banning Scorpionede would nerf the Baton Pass style enough, when there is still Scolipede that can replace Scorpionede in the team?

You wouldn't, right? That's because A being better than B doesn't imply that B is bad. Elementary logic. Also, you are assuming that

BP didn't dominate the ladder or overcentralize the metagame last Gen because there didn't exist a Pokemon that'd simultaneously auto-ensure Speed initiative for the entire team while boosting Def, and able to restart the chain numerous times

Do you know that correlation doesn't imply causation?

There is a reason why using BP has always been taboo, and there was so much to ban last gen, that BP couldn't have been suspected.
Even after admitting that Scolipede is overpowered as a support pokemon (as I have), does that mean that banning it would nerf Baton Pass enough? Jumping there would mean that in a Metagame alike to Gen 5 but with Kyogre allowed, banning him would make Rain totally manageable.

 

[Over Zealous]

There's a multitude of reasons BP is so much stronger this Gen, and Scolipede's just a single piece of the puzzle. If we wanted to ban specific Pokemon to bring BP back to its Gen 5 level, we would have to ban Mr. Mime, Sylveon, Mega Scizor, Mega Mawile, AND Speed Boost Sylveon, as they're all new or redone tools that make BP just that much stronger. Keep in mind that this also isn't Gen 5; LO and Choice items don't make up half of people's teams, Rain-boosted Hydro Pumps aren't a major point of the tier, and random Scarfers/Chlorophyll users that can catch speed boosters are pretty rare. In addition, Perish Song, one of the best stops to BP, has all but vanished from the tier since Celebi and Politoed declined heavily in usage.
Basically what I'm saying is, you're way overthinking this when the most logical solution is simply to limit the amount of BP users on a team-if Scolipede is as broken as you think it is, then surely BP would have no problem surviving such a nerf, yes?

Bold font hopes to encourage people to actually read and understand the arguments.
There's a multitude of reasons Baton Pass is so much stronger this Gen. Obviously, so care to mention them? Let's list Baton Pass' new tools: Speed Boost Scolipede, Sylveon, Mr Mime retyping. Am I missing anything (besides already banned Mega Blaziken)? The Baton Pass teams (you know, the ones that have dominated the ladder and twisted the very metagame around it?) are the same, formulaic teams they always have been, with the inclusion of Sylveon and Scolipede.

Limiting Baton Pass to 3 users isn't a nerf, it's a murder. It kills the chain archetype (you know, full Baton Pass chains) and defensive Baton Pass, and limits it to half/quick-Pass. Is this what Smogon wants to do? It seems they only want to make the archetype more manageable, not reduce it to half/quick-Pass. And Smogon are reluctant to issue a complex ban, especially a special clause.

A bulky, reliable, auto and simultaneous boosting support Pokemon such as Scolipede is the reason for Baton Pass' dominance of the ladder and over-centralization of the metagame.

Smogon is more inclined to ban the root problem, instead of constructing complex equations and special clauses.

Let "Scorpionede" be a pokemon introduced in 7th gen that knows Speed Boost, and has prominent physical bulk and average special bulk. It's able to reliable pass twice as many Special Defense boosts as Scolipede passes Defense boosts. Would you argue that banning Scorpionede would nerf the Baton Pass style enough, when there is still Scolipede that can replace Scorpionede in the team?

You wouldn't, right? That's because A being better than B doesn't imply that B is bad. Elementary logic. Also, you are assuming that

Do you know that correlation doesn't imply causation?

There is a reason why using BP has always been taboo, and there was so much to ban last gen, that BP couldn't have been suspected.
Even after admitting that Scolipede is overpowered as a support pokemon (as I have), does that mean that banning it would nerf Baton Pass enough? Jumping there would mean that in a Metagame alike to Gen 5 but with Kyogre allowed, banning him would make Rain totally manageable.

So we're inserting theorymons into this thread? And are we assuming Gen 7 releases no new tools besides your TheoryMon? If Scorpionede appears in 7th Gen OU, we'll deal with it when it becomes a problem. And by then, it's likely Scolipede would have already been banished to Ubers for its ridiculous support statistics.

Does banning Scolipede nerf Baton Pass enough? No single person can know. But is it the simple, most effective ban? Yes, considering Scolipede is the root of the problem. Considering Smogon doesn't issue complex bans and special clauses unless absolutely necessary. And considering a Baton Pass clause of 3 kills the archetype. Without Scolipede, Baton Pass will go back to how it was, a playable full Baton Pass chain archetype, but without an overwhelming support Pokemon that is Scolipede.

 

[The_Derpy_Chicken]

And Smogon is (not are lol) reluctant to issue a complex ban, especially a special clause.

Smogon is more inclined to ban the root problem, instead of constructing complex equations and special clauses.

1. Stop acting like you speak for the OU council and every other important member of Smogon.
2. You totally missed the point with the Scorpionede thing. Their point was that because one thing is better than another, it doesn't mean the latter isn't good.
3. Once again, one single person can know the answer(s) to a question/questions. And honestly, do you really think it's a good idea to do things your way just because of the chance that we might wrong? I didn't think so... all it takes is the slightest amount of intelligence to see why.

 

[Srn]

Ok, I think there's something we all haven't agreed on and discussed yet (or atleast that's how it seems to me)
Do we want to totally nerf baton pass or do we want to somewhat preserve it?

We're moving on and saying that scolipede oughta be banned, but is that really gonna satisfy all of us? Some people like me want to see the dumb playstyle just shot totally down, and I really don't think just banning scolipede is gonna cut it.
Some people DO want to see the chain archetype just die, nobody really likes facing it or using it and it's pretty broken, as we've settled.

I think this needs to sorta be discussed before we start discussing how to nerf/kill baton pass: How badly do we want to nerf/kill baton pass anyways?

So we're inserting theorymons into this thread? And are we assuming Gen 7 releases no new tools besides your TheoryMon? If Scorpionede appears in 7th Gen OU, we'll deal with it when it becomes a problem. And by then, it's likely Scolipede would have already been banished to Ubers for its ridiculous support statistics.

You totally missed the point Slayer95 was tryna make :I

 

[Over Zealous]

1. Stop acting like you speak for the OU council and every other important member of Smogon.
2. You totally missed the point with the Scorpionede thing. Their point was that because one thing is better than another, it doesn't mean the latter isn't good.
3. Once again, one single person can know the answer(s) to a question/questions. And honestly, do you really think it's a good idea to do things your way just because of the chance that we might wrong? I didn't think so... all it takes is the slightest amount of intelligence to see why.

Smogon as in the Council, a group of individuals, so are.

I don't act like I speak for the Council; the Council have spoken for themselves, that being they are reluctant to issue complex bans and special clauses unless absolutely necessary, and prefer the more simple, efficient standard ban.

His Scorpionede theorymon was not only ineffective, but pointless. Just because one thing is better than another doesn't mean the latter isn't good. Okay, and your point?

A single person cannot know the perfect solution. That's why there's a OU Council, not an OU Individual. If you truly think your solution is the 100% best and most effective solution (nevermind its complexity) you're conceited and kidding yourself.

I simply propose the ban of the actual problem: Scolipede.

You're free to let me know the other overwhelming new tools Baton Pass received this Generation, and free to argue why a complex engineered clause that kills the archetype is somehow more effective and efficient. You're also free to pretend the Council historically executes complex bans and engineers restrictive, convoluted clauses.

 

[RevengeOfHiddenPower]

I believe full BP chains are what makes Scolipede broken. If we cap at 3 BP users, Scolipede is not broken. This would force BP teams to leave themselves vulnerable without removing it as a style of play.

Also, we are not looking to change the fundamental mechanics of the game. This is still Pokemon. There is a cap on BP users in ADV; it works as intended. Why do anything else and still not solve the problem?

 

[Hiphiphooray]

God this thread is so full on fail. Where are the mods when we need them? Willing to give out infractions for mentioning Aqua Ring accidently but will allow an entire 2 or 3 pages of bickering about Bold Font and Grammar... Jesus.

Let me try to get the thread back on track...

The current debate is about removing individual Baton Passers that are the key problem to the strategy:

People have made their point about Scolipede being a broken support Pokemon. They gave good evidence, and some people agree and others don't. Leave it at that, its just another viable suggestion. Banning Espeon is another viable suggestion just the same.

People are reluctant to ban both of these pokemon because these Pokemon are being 'unfairly' banned because they are only too powerful under certain conditions (We never banned Swift Swim users when Rain made them broken). Arguments have been made to show that Scolipede is also broken outside of Baton Pass chains, but again, some people agree, others don't.

Now, moving away from single pokemon scapegoats, we have the ideas of banning single moves and abilities. These include:

Magic Bounce
Speed Boost
Ingrain

Banning Magic Bounce leaves no answer to early Phasing, Taunts, Entry Hazards, etc. Banning Speed Boost forces Baton Passers to look elsewhere for a vital stat boost. Banning Ingrain forces Baton Passers to play more cautiously against phasers.

All of these have their downsides as not being enough or 'unfairly' being banned.

Now, we try to eliminate this issue by adding an additional complex clause:

Magic Bounce + Baton Pass + Stored Power
Speed Boost + Baton Pass + Protect + Substitute
Ingrain + Baton Passs

Obviously these are getting much more complex, something Smogon tends to go against. They may provide a solution, but they are extremely complex, so lets look else where:

Now, we try to reduce the number of Baton Passers to the team to make the number of counters greater for Baton Pass teams.

This may work, but how many is too many? Furthermore, Is it really acceptable to ban an entire playstyle? Some people enjoy playing Defensive Baton Pass or Chain Pass teams. They have been around for a while and why should we now choose to eliminate rather than nerf them?

This solution seems to be the most acceptable as it doesn't unfairly ban any Pokemon or make for an extremely complex clause. The only problem here is that it is eliminating an entire playstyle, which some people may or may not agree with. We never did that with weather, instead we nerfed its broken aspect, swift swim.


In conclusion, all of the above solutions have problems. We need to start introducing new ideas or discussing the lesser of the evils.

 

[RowDog]

Over Zealous If you had read the the OP you would realise that complex bans are on the table. It is not about doing one ban simply and be done with it. Smogon does consider complex bans in certain scenarios and this is one of them. Haunter said so himself. Why can't you comprehend that simple factor and stop blabbing on and staying narrow-minded on one ban?

Srn9130 The idea of this thread is try and nerf baton pass, not be rid of the strategy. Once again the title and OP explains that. Granted I know quite a lot of members hate vsing full BP teams. But saying that I know quite a few people who really hate vsing Stall. There are also those who hate vsing what they would consider mindless offensive teams. We ban Pokemon to preserve strategies, like the ban of Mega-Gengar to help stall. We never want to destroy an entire strategy, regardless of whether we like it or not, they all have a place in the metagame, even if they are gimmicky. Our main problem is when it is uncompetitive because it is based around luck (see evasion clause, swagger clause) which BP isn't.

With that can we please try and focus on how we can nerf, not destroy, baton pass chains in the best way possible, which means complex bans are most definitely a real option, because can I say, not one Pokemon on BP chains in OU are broken all by their lonesome self, including Scolipede, because without anything to reflect things like phasing its boosts can be quite easily removed.

 

[Mango Smoothie]

(bless you Hiphiphooray you saved the thread)

I'm just going to give my opinions on what's been stated.

People have made their point about Scolipede being a broken support Pokemon. They gave good evidence, and some people agree and others don't. Leave it at that, its just another viable suggestion. Banning Espeon is another viable suggestion just the same.

People are reluctant to ban both of these pokemon because these Pokemon are being 'unfairly' banned because they are only too powerful under certain conditions (We never banned Swift Swim users when Rain made them broken). Arguments have been made to show that Scolipede is also broken outside of Baton Pass chains, but again, some people agree, others don't.

I can't get behind banning Espeon, it really isn't broken outside of BP chains. Scolipede does provide very VERY reliable and good support, however this isn't about 'scolipede' as much as it is Full-BP chains, but I wouldn't be against having a discussion elsewhere about support Scolipede's power. These two are (granted important) pieces of the BP chain, but not completely irreplaceable nor the sole problem.

Banning:
Magic Bounce
Speed Boost
Ingrain

I can't get behind banning Magic Bounce or Speed Boost, that kills pokemon like Yanmega and Sharpedo, who have nothing to do with Baton Pass. Magic Bounce also works well for teams who can't fit in Hazards, and does have a competetive use for countering leads. Ingrain literally is only seen on BP teams, but I'm not sure that will really solve the problem of 'unbreakable chain'.

Magic Bounce + Baton Pass + Stored Power
Speed Boost + Baton Pass + Protect + Substitute
Ingrain + Baton Passs

You said it yourself, these are really complex (especially the second one, thats 3 moves and an ability).

Now, we try to reduce the number of Baton Passers to the team to make the number of counters greater for Baton Pass teams.

This may work, but how many is too many? Furthermore, Is it really acceptable to ban an entire playstyle? Some people enjoy playing Defensive Baton Pass or Chain Pass teams. They have been around for a while and why should we now choose to eliminate rather than nerf them?

This solution seems to be the most acceptable as it doesn't unfairly ban any Pokemon or make for an extremely complex clause. The only problem here is that it is eliminating an entire playstyle, which some people may or may not agree with. We never did that with weather, instead we nerfed its broken aspect, swift swim.

Reducing the number of BP members in order to make BP more manageable is where I stand right now. Honestly, the way I see it, Baton Pass should not be a win condition. No one move should be a win condition. Support moves ESPECIALLY should not be win conditions. The fact that these teams can waltz in and make pretty much the exact same moves against virtually ANY team they face with minimal adjustment should be concerning. These teams, unlike other teams, do not play 'against' an opponent in the sense that the player must adapt choices to fit what he/she is faced with. Instead, BP Chains set up the exact same way virtually every battle because it doesn't matter what your opponent does so long as you are at +4 speed and +4 defense along with a couple CM boosts. I'm going to throw an example for some of you Yugioh fans: Chain Burn. For anyone who has played against or with one of these decks, you know what I mean by this. And if you don't, I advise looking it up. These decks are really looked down upon because it plays the exact same way virtually every duel, and doesn't care what your opponent does, and then proceeds to almost guarantee the victory against any deck not running Royal Decree (negates all trap cards) or if the chain burn user gets a terrible opening hand. Actually, interestingly enough, Konami put a limit on how many Chain Strike and Ojama Trio any deck could carry (important support cards for the deck), which would be an interesting parallel if we were to limit the number of BP users.

 

[Vryheid]

Also, we are not looking to change the fundamental mechanics of the game. This is still Pokemon. There is a cap on BP users in ADV; it works as intended. Why do anything else and still not solve the problem?

Maybe because I don't care what players of a metagame totally irrelevant to this discussion thinks is necessary for balance? Don't even tell me that XY and ADV are remotely comparable, we have SO many more tools to deal with BP now and the power creep has gone up so much that losing to any sort of baton pass chain is entirely your own fault.

There is zero evidence Baton Pass is overcentralizing (just look at the usage stats, it clearly isn't), or that it's uncompetitive (it's in no way a luck based strategy). I don't care if you think it's too good of a strategy- that's the whole point of playing a simulator, to play at the most competitive level possible and find strategies that consistently work. In addition, we've shown that even the best BP players on the ladder can be beaten with a little bit of preparation and some some smart resource control, so why anyone is still spreading this nonsense that it's inherently in need of a nerf is beyond me.

 

[Kermi]

i am going to admit i have only read 2 or 3 posts that are not the OP. that being said, i might say something that was already said. but i do not have the time to read 88 pages.

anyway, the solution doesn't have to be super complex. baton pass itself does not need to be banned, because it's a totally viable thing to use. people used to drypass Celebi to avoid pursuit traps.

i also don't think that banning magic bounce, or even combination of the two is viable. this is because with that logic, espeon is overpowered because it blocks roar/whirlwind. well, ingrain is a thing. baton pass teams can still function through ingrain, this is how people created baton pass teams before magic bounce espeon was a thing.

now, a complex ban like scolipede + espeon is also not needed. ninjask, while not as great as scolipede, still exists. and even so, you can still gain say, agility boosts from something like zapdos. a ban on scolipede + espeon wouldn't work because then people would just start doing that instead.

i feel like the solution is simple, but i could perhaps be missing something. in any case, here is my opinion on the matter:

ban teams with more than one user of baton pass.

think about this for a minute. what competitive player uses baton pass on more than one pokemon? i've never seen this. baton pass is rare enough as it is outside of full baton pass teams, so really, who is actually using baton pass on two different pokemon on their team? virtually nobody. this completely ends full baton pass teams, while keeping everything else in place.

thanks for reading.

 

[branflakes]

i am going to admit i have only read 2 or 3 posts that are not the OP. that being said, i might say something that was already said. but i do not have the time to read 88 pages.

anyway, the solution doesn't have to be super complex. baton pass itself does not need to be banned, because it's a totally viable thing to use. people used to drypass Celebi to avoid pursuit traps.

i also don't think that banning magic bounce, or even combination of the two is viable. this is because with that logic, espeon is overpowered because it blocks roar/whirlwind. well, ingrain is a thing. baton pass teams can still function through ingrain, this is how people created baton pass teams before magic bounce espeon was a thing.

now, a complex ban like scolipede + espeon is also not needed. ninjask, while not as great as scolipede, still exists. and even so, you can still gain say, agility boosts from something like zapdos. a ban on scolipede + espeon wouldn't work because then people would just start doing that instead.

i feel like the solution is simple, but i could perhaps be missing something. in any case, here is my opinion on the matter:

ban teams with more than one user of baton pass.

think about this for a minute. what competitive player uses baton pass on more than one pokemon? i've never seen this. baton pass is rare enough as it is outside of full baton pass teams, so really, who is actually using baton pass on two different pokemon on their team? virtually nobody. this completely ends full baton pass teams, while keeping everything else in place.

thanks for reading.

Our goal is to nerf baton pass chains, not to ban them entirely.

EDIT: Or rather, try to find a balance that nerfs them without making continuous chains unviable or illegal.

 

[Mango Smoothie]

Maybe because I don't care what players of a metagame totally irrelevant to this discussion thinks is necessary for balance? Don't even tell me that XY and ADV are remotely comparable, we have SO many more tools to deal with BP now and the power creep has gone up so much that losing to any sort of baton pass chain is entirely your own fault.

There is zero evidence Baton Pass is overcentralizing (just look at the usage stats, it clearly isn't), or that it's uncompetitive (it's in no way a luck based strategy). I don't care if you think it's too good of a strategy- that's the whole point of playing a simulator, to play at the most competitive level possible and find strategies that consistently work. In addition, we've shown that even the best BP players on the ladder can be beaten with a little bit of preparation and some some smart resource control, so why anyone is still spreading this nonsense that it's inherently in need of a nerf is beyond me.

Except Baton pass got a ton of new toys too, be it Scolipede who literally has to survive (not even use a setup move) for a few turns before the entire chain outspeeds you, a pretty bulky Fairy in Sylveon, who after an Iron Defense or two is pretty hard to take down on either end, and Magic Bounce meaning your plan to taunt/roar is pretty hard to pull off and hazards are almost impossible since you pretty much ask your opponent to bounce them to you. The weather nerf means they don't have to worry about Rain-Boosted Hydro pumps for more than a few turns at best, and Charizard-Y's drought can easily be stalled out by Scolipede, all the while getting progressively faster and faster.

And since you bring up 'usage stats', remember that teams do not generally counter Baton Pass, individual pokemon do. But just for argument's sake let's take a look at Quagsire. When ~95% of quagsires are running unaware, Haze should probably be one of the last moves on the list with negligible use since it is redundant and repetetive when used in conjunction with Unaware. However, Haze is one of the more commonly used moves (7th), just behind waterfall by ~1.5%. I wonder why something with unaware would need to run haze. Because outside of Mold Breaker Gyarados/Excadrill, I see no reason to run that move, and there are much MUCH better counters to those two than Quagsire.

EDIT: Another important thing about usage statistics: Let's see where the BP Chain core members are: Scolipede: 3.33% Espeon: 7% Smeargle: 3.799% Mr. Mime: 0.411% Sylveon: 6% Vaporeon: 3.2%
You know what counters espeon and sylveon (according to usage statistics)? Physical attackers. You know what stats scolipede and Vaporeon boost? Physical defense (and speed for the first one). You know what are listed as Vaporeon counters? Specially Offensive pokemon. Sylveon takes special hits very well.

And lastly, with regards to that comment on BP being 'easily beatable' by the power creep, Deniss is back at #2, just behind the #1 guy by 2 points.

 

[Flamebot]

Guys, Thundurus checks baton pass hard. If it runs taunt there's little you can do. You also don't want to switch Espeon into something that might not have taunt. Subsitute on any pokemon also seems to atleast ness up baton teams.
Just things I've noticed when trying bp

 

[Kermi]

Our goal is to nerf baton pass chains, not to ban them entirely.

the solution is still the same, only replace "one" with "2" or "3". this way, you can only baton pass between the 2/3 users before passing on the chain. this makes things less ridiculous than they currently are, and baton pass chains would still exist.

 

[Shoot For Zero]

Why the double standard for Espeon?

Baton Pass Espeon isn't broken on its own and has uses outside of BP chains. If you want to know more, you can read the thread you've just posted in.

This is an opinion. It uses my logic.​

If a Poke has a broken set (BP chains break the game) Smogon has set a precedent of banning Pokes with sets that don't break the game in OU. Why? Every Poke can run a moveset that isn't broken. Rest/Sleep Talk/Toxic/Confusion Mewtwo isn't broken (and is even bad) and it's not in OU because a simple ban is better than a complex one. Why ban Speed Boost + Blaziken when we can ban all Blaziken? It's simpler. Removing Scolipede from the BP chain fixes the problem completely.

This is a prediction. It is based on Smogon logic.

I wasn't sure whether to reply to your loaded question with an actual answer or not, but I might as well.

Espeon is a balanced passer because it can handle special attacks while Calm Minding, but falls to a strong physical attacks; Scolipede can handle physical attacks while using Iron Defense, but can still get Speed Boosts in the face of a strong special attacker. Scolipede, the main addition to BP in XY, makes BP broken. Espeon relies on Scolipede to succeed, but Scolipede couldn't care less if Espeon left; just put another face with BP in there. Baton Pass chains weren't top-tier teams in BW with Espeon. Remove Scolipede, and it's Gen V BP.

Of course, this is inferior to a cap at 3 BP members. No other strategies get nerfed that way. (six Poke dry pass anyone?)
​

Also, if you fish for inconsistencies in the future and catch something, remember that humans are capable of thought and changing their opinions when given new information. I believe you're familiar with this concept:

​

I think the way to go would be Ban Scolipede + Espeon on the same team.

What we need to discuss is whether to limit the number of Baton Passers on a team to 3 or 4.

Anyway, I think Punchshroom's proposal is the way to go, because contrary to what most people think, a Baton Pass Clause does not make Baton Pass completely unviable.

 

[Mikasa]

I am not disputing that passing +2 defense and +1/2 speed to espeon is broken. In fact, as you have stated, passing +2 defense and +1/2 speed to espeon is much more broken then most recipients. I am in full agreement with you.

However, just because one recipient happens to be more broken then other recipients does not make other recipients not broken. I am quite sure that passing speed and defense to Kyogre would be far more broken then passing speed and defense to espeon, due simply to the sheer immediate power water spout provides and Kyogre's inherit bulk. That does not make passing to espeon not broken.

Likewise, just because passing speed and defense to espeon is more broken then most other receivers does not make other receivers not broken.
Furthermore, it is not only the support that scolipede provides that is broken, but the reliability in which he does so. Many mons become very powerful, even broken if given a shell pass, yet shell pass is not broken in OU. Why is this? Because the only two users of shell pass cannot shell pass with anything resembling reliability, meaning that if an opponent pulls off a shell pass, the player has screwed up, and we (as in, the competitive community in general) are ok with that. Scolipede, on the other hand, can setup iron defense and speed against a huge variety of the OU metagame, against offensive and defensive threats alike, and can only be stopped by a choice few mons like talonflame and phase leads. Offensive teams in particular are screwed over by scolipede because precious few offensive mons can ohko after an iron defense and even fewer can do so while outspeeding scoli at +1. It is a combination of the reliability as well as the magnitude of support that makes scolipede broken.

For comparison, let us take ninjask. Ninjask can do his job just as reliably as scolipede, which is pass speed. However, speed alone is not usually enough to break a mon as that mon is still vulnerable to being revenged through priority or by mons who can take the hit and ohko back. Scolipede, when successful, quite nearly removes priority from the table because at +2, even the most powerful priority will struggle to revenge any decent OU threat. It also removes most physical attacks from the table because most receivers are semi bulky mons with a middling to low speed tier, meaning they already have a non negligible defense stat that just got doubled. For a base comparison, Phys defensive scolipede has physical bulk akin to that of phys defensive deoxys-defense! Scolipede has mediocre defensive stats at best. Now lets give that same boost to a mon with non laughable bulk such as azumaril or gyarados. Scared yet?. Now lets up the anti again by giving it to a mon with good natural special bulk like sylveon or AV anything, and you have a nearly unkillable mon, ready to smack you in the face repeatedly if you lack a phaser. Do you now realize what scolipede does to offensive teams? There is no way ninjask could give his team this kind of support, so even though ninjask can do his thing just as reliably as scolipede, ninjask is not broken, scolipede is, because scolipede supports his team much better.


TL;DR Scolipede is not broken just for being reliable nor is he broken just for the level of support he brings to his team. He is broken due to being too reliable for the level of support he brings to his team.

Let me know if you find anything amiss with my argument. If you can, please elaborate why you believe quick pass scolipede to not be broken.

P.S. awesome user name btw :)

Well first things first, my favorite nerf option is to limit the number of BP users in a team to 3 (maybe 4 but I think it won't solve the problem) it is by no means perfect but was IMO the best we got till now, I'm just saying this because it is unfair that I'm going against your option and you don't even know mine and also because a guy quoted me and replied like if I was suggesting a Speed Boost ban (?).

Now I'll explain why I find Scolipede to be okay outside of Full BP, the deal is that differently from full BP a Quick Pass from Scolipede is something you can prevent with a plenthora of viable Pokémons and moves as Phasing works now and one can just easily phase the receiver, Offensive Pressure makes it much harder for him to get that Iron Defense Boost, 4MSS becomes a thing because you really want both Substitute and Protect but if you run both you have no atacking moves, your receiver can be statused on the switch, and all this are good options in order to prevent Scolipede for passing both an Iron Defense Boost and speed, then you can also deal with the BP recipient even if he is at an unmatchable speed and at +2 physical defense because everything who walled that mon would still be able to wall him as he has no atack boost, SE special moves are still killing/hurting badly, it's also really hard for the mon to receive the boost unhindered because Scolipede outspeeds the atacker and then goes for a BP meaning the receiver will take some damage unless Scolipede managed to also pass a sub (but let's face it passing ID and a sub is a really hard task) so IMO it is not broken because you really don't have to go out of the way with things like Taunt Thundurus to beat a Quick Pass Scolipede, and in fact it's very unlikely that a team is weak to Scolipede's Quick Pass unless the team already struggled with the recipient.

Also the fact he is not receiving that much usage outside of full BP and that he is not very high in the OU Viability Rank Thread also shows that most of the players don't consider Scolipede to be too reliable or to give too much support because here on Smogon the playerbase is really all about winning and if Quick Pass Scolipede was this hot people would be hyping him more don't you think?

P.S. Thanks for the compliment on my username the Titans must die :)

Also I'm gonna ask again to anyone who thinks we should ban Scolipede because he is broken only on full BP (differently from WebBowser who brought the hipotesys of he being broken in any team) why Scolipede and not Espeon? Can someone bring me any good answer other than "We had Espeon last gen and BP was not broken" because it is totally irrelevant if an Espeon ban would work as well as a Scolipede ban.

 

[trillyntruly]

@overzealous (i'm sorry, english is my field, i have to), a group is still a singular thing. "the government is" "the family is", etc. a group of individuals ultimately makes up one singular group.

hiphiphooray pretty much is on the money. we have to change the conversation. we can either think of a "perfect" ban that doesn't result in any sort of unfair downside (like banning a generally adequate pokemon like espeon) but still nerfs/destroys full BP chains, or start choosing. but i can't think of a unique ban, they've all been suggested that i can think of. and assuming that we have exhausted all of our options, i think banning a certain number of BP users per team is the best way to go. i don't know enough about the intricacies of playing or the meta game to say how many should be allowed or why, but i think that ban makes the most sense. complex bans are kind of obnoxious, scoliopede and espeon do not need to be banned at all, speed boost/magic bounce definitely shouldn't be banned, because at that point you may as well ban espeon in the first place. what is its use if it can't use that ability? and speed boost is necessary for certain pokes that aren't that good. ingrain also has its little niches that i think people should be allowed to use.

banning a certain amount of BPers per team is the only ban that doesn't unfairly ban anything that doesn't have to be while also not being complex.

the question is what impact would that have? how many should be allowed? and how many people are willing to vouch for the full BP chain strat to stick around? i personally find it to be rather dull, and the teams are never vastly different from each other, but i'm no authority and i don't think i have the right to tell people how they should play pokemon.

also, this may not belong but maybe a better player could help me here, what happens when 2 full BP chain teams go against each other when Heart Swap inevitably becomes standard play? do the teams like break each other? will they get anywhere?

 

[Over Zealous]

Over Zealous If you had read the the OP you would realise that complex bans are on the table. It is not about doing one ban simply and be done with it. Smogon does consider complex bans in certain scenarios and this is one of them. Haunter said so himself. Why can't you comprehend that simple factor and stop blabbing on and staying narrow-minded on one ban?

Srn9130 The idea of this thread is try and nerf baton pass, not be rid of the strategy. Once again the title and OP explains that. Granted I know quite a lot of members hate vsing full BP teams. But saying that I know quite a few people who really hate vsing Stall. There are also those who hate vsing what they would consider mindless offensive teams. We ban Pokemon to preserve strategies, like the ban of Mega-Gengar to help stall. We never want to destroy an entire strategy, regardless of whether we like it or not, they all have a place in the metagame, even if they are gimmicky. Our main problem is when it is uncompetitive because it is based around luck (see evasion clause, swagger clause) which BP isn't.

With that can we please try and focus on how we can nerf, not destroy, baton pass chains in the best way possible, which means complex bans are most definitely a real option, because can I say, not one Pokemon on BP chains in OU are broken all by their lonesome self, including Scolipede, because without anything to reflect things like phasing its boosts can be quite easily removed.

Rowdog, why can't you comprehend the simple fact I never said Smogon won't initiate a complex ban, but rather they are reluctant to do so unless absolutely necessary? Complex bans and special clauses are on the table, but only if they are necessary and efficient.

Yes; let's discuss how to rebalance Baton Pass, not relinquish the archetype by restricting only 3 users, and killing the concept of a defensive and full chain. Let's discuss how it is more simple and efficient than banning the root problem, Scolipede.

Subject 18 Edit: Removed irrelevant content.

 

[trillyntruly]

hm, on this particular front it seems as though you're arguing for scolipede to get banned because you think (mind you, i don't necessarily disagree on that front, just trying be impartial, as...well...i'm impartial. my mind hasn't been made up) that scolipede is the root issue, which he may very well be, and that if scolipede is banned, then we can retain the archetype rather than destroying it. that way the issue is solved, the ban is simple, and the archetype remains in tact. the only issue i see is that scolipede and scolipede users suffer under this scenario, which isn't necessarily fair either, because scolipede, from what i can tell, is far from being a broken pokemon on his lonesome. his problem is within the context of full BP chain teams. so either way, somebody's suffering. somebody won't be happy. either people won't be able to use a Pokemon they like, or people won't be able to use a strategy they like. and mind you, both of these things, when removed from the contexts of each other, are relatively manageable.