Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[Ramplestilskin]

Over Zealous, you repeated a dozen of time that 3 BP "team" is composed with 3 BP members and 3 others that are non-supportive and non-synergistic. But did you manage to think of a team with three BP users ? As Jukain posted earlier, with 4 BP members though, we can already say the last 2 or 3 mons will entirely be dedicated to "counter the counter" of BP team, namely fly-spam or other things you can think of. They can help you to restart a chain if one has been broken, regaining the necessary momentum. They can also act as final recipents, being able to sweep the entire team.

Really, I don't think that ban Scolipede is a good solution. If we ban Scolipede, obviously full-BP teams will be highly weakened. Obviously, it will be easier for dedicated threats to destroy them. However, the problem of "autolose" or "autowin" won't be solved imo. When you're not able to boost both Speed and Defense, you'll just have to see what is the most threatening in the opponent team : sheer power or speed or whatever. Then, instead of leading thinklessly with Scoli, you'll choose the right lead ( imo Mew is a really good choice, it already has 100BS speed and has access to a large number of boosting moves). After this, you'll pass it and finally will end at the same result. Even Smeargle can lead effectively, passing Speed and Special boost. I don't know if you've already tested a BP with and without Scoli ( I do), most of the time Espeon only need one or two Speed Boost, 2 SpA and 2 SpD boosts and that's enough to sweep them all, and you can perform that result well without Scoli, but with the versatility of all your mons and the right choices.

That's why I'm still arguing for a nerf of BP by restricting the number of Passers. However, I've also changed my mind quite a bit (essentially because or thanks to Jukain). Indeed, I once criticized a 3 BP team, arguing that BP won't be viable, and as a result we should restrict to 4. That is no longer my point of view. I realized that limiting to 3 BP users made the Passing strategy unviable BUT a team is built with 6 pokemons, right ? So as I said before, each pokemon deserve the aim of a BP sweep, may be we can call it a "BP core" because it can win by itself at the beginning if the opponent isn't prepared and can also function as a huge Late game sweeper (huge as a Megazord lol, that was an argument I saw a long time ago on this thread). You may answer : it's no longer a BP team but a BP core. Well, Jukain's replays proved us that an entirely based BP-strategy, no matter how many mons compose it, isn't competitive and keeps most of its problems, as long as it is able to keep the chain from the start to the end. And, except if you want to ban Scolipede AND limit the number of BP-user (because this ban alone isn't enough), which is a really bad and a really complex idea, 4-BP teams can still do keep the chain from the start to the end, they have more difficulty to do so, but they can, and once it's done, you win. With 3 BP members, given that your opponent is a good player and doesn't let you play around on the few turns, this is nearly impossible, and the rest of the team has to be well-built, and you finally need some skill, to win. As long as it is not an auto-lose/win, and that low-skilled player can't win against skilled one, the nerf purpose is fulfilled.

That's my point, I may be wrong but I definitively think limit to 3 BP users is the best solution.

 

[WebBowser]

Read th previous posts. Webowser has proved that 4 mons is enough for a BP chain to be strong. And I feel that iron defense Scolipede shouldn't be banned. Iron Defense can be left to vaporeon, which does the job better anyway. Scolipede can leave the extra move slot for toxic.

First off, I did not make those replays, Jukain did. I simply used them to support my position.

Quick Passing requires baton pass. And anyway quick passing is not that good a strategy anyway. Taking a hit while coming in is risky and dangerous

It's considerably less risky when the receiver has +2 defense and existent special bulk. It allows swap ins that would normally not be possible such as lando-I coming in on a megados waterfall for example.

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. +2 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 180-212 (56.2 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's pretty much worse case scenario too. A smart quick passer would pass his defense boost to a mon who takes neutral damage from the enemy STAB and abuse those defense boosts to smack the enemy in the face repeatedly.

Well first things first, my favorite nerf option is to limit the number of BP users in a team to 3 (maybe 4 but I think it won't solve the problem) it is by no means perfect but was IMO the best we got till now, I'm just saying this because it is unfair that I'm going against your option and you don't even know mine and also because a guy quoted me and replied like if I was suggesting a Speed Boost ban (?).

Now I'll explain why I find Scolipede to be okay outside of Full BP, the deal is that differently from full BP a Quick Pass from Scolipede is something you can prevent with a plenthora of viable Pokémons and moves as Phasing works now and one can just easily phase the receiver, Offensive Pressure makes it much harder for him to get that Iron Defense Boost, 4MSS becomes a thing because you really want both Substitute and Protect but if you run both you have no atacking moves, your receiver can be statused on the switch, and all this are good options in order to prevent Scolipede for passing both an Iron Defense Boost and speed, then you can also deal with the BP recipient even if he is at an unmatchable speed and at +2 physical defense because everything who walled that mon would still be able to wall him as he has no atack boost, SE special moves are still killing/hurting badly, it's also really hard for the mon to receive the boost unhindered because Scolipede outspeeds the atacker and then goes for a BP meaning the receiver will take some damage unless Scolipede managed to also pass a sub (but let's face it passing ID and a sub is a really hard task) so IMO it is not broken because you really don't have to go out of the way with things like Taunt Thundurus to beat a Quick Pass Scolipede, and in fact it's very unlikely that a team is weak to Scolipede's Quick Pass unless the team already struggled with the recipient.

Also the fact he is not receiving that much usage outside of full BP and that he is not very high in the OU Viability Rank Thread also shows that most of the players don't consider Scolipede to be too reliable or to give too much support because here on Smogon the playerbase is really all about winning and if Quick Pass Scolipede was this hot people would be hyping him more don't you think?

P.S. Thanks for the compliment on my username the Titans must die :)

Also I'm gonna ask again to anyone who thinks we should ban Scolipede because he is broken only on full BP (differently from WebBowser who brought the hipotesys of he being broken in any team) why Scolipede and not Espeon? Can someone bring me any good answer other than "We had Espeon last gen and BP was not broken" because it is totally irrelevant if an Espeon ban would work as well as a Scolipede ban.

I would like to address the bolded statements, as I believe them to be fallacious.

1. Offensive pressure works decently well in theory but in practice if it's not an ohko, scoli can iron d turn one and pass turn 2 if given a free swap in. Note that scoli doesn't have to lead either, if an opponent kills a mon with, say, conkeldurr, scoli can easily come in and set up an iron defense on the swap and in all likleyhood a second iron defense on the next mon. Indeed, even tflame fails to ohko a +2 scoli

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Scolipede: 186-218 (57.4 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So much for hardcounters....

Simply put, it's not that scoli has no counters, it's just that the number of mons he can setup in front of for absolutely free is unacceptable.

2. Most mons that would consider status moves cannot break a +2 scoli subs, further limiting the number of viable counters. Even if they could, it turns into a guessing game of "break subs or try to status", at which point one wrong guess means free subbed swap in. Not to mention that there is nothing stopping folks from pairing scoli with status immune mons like entei or conkeldurr

3. See the lando-I calc and CB talonflame calc. Lando-I and scoli are very frail mons. If they are taking a powerful SE stab without dieing, imagine how well mons with non negligible bulk will be taking similar powered moves?

4. I highly recommend you check the UU banlist FAQ on it's respective thread, more specifically the reasoning behind the klefkei ban. Just because the brokenness is not recognized by the playerbase at large does not stop something from being broken.

5. dah eff is a "hipotesys"? A horrid butchering of "Hypothesis"?

As for someone who believes that scoli is broken on only BP, Over Zealous appears to be holding this position, and furthermore is actually improving his arguments quite a lot.

 

[Rhaegar]

In hindsight, Baton Pass doesn't really seem that much of a problem anymore. It's not used as commonly as a month ago and can be outplayed even by some unprepared teams.

 

[Rotosect]

I don't understand why we're immediatly jumping to this "3 BP users limit", when it's obvious that BP teams work only because there are six team members that can barely counter most of the metagame.
If we're really going with this route then start with five and if it's still too much to handle then move to four and so on.
Slipperly slopes must always be avoided if possible.

 

[Shadow2684]

I don't understand why we're immediatly jumping to this "3 BP users limit", when it's obvious that BP teams work only because there are six team members that can barely counter most of the metagame.
If we're really going with this route then start with five and if it's still too much to handle then move to four and so on.
Slipperly slopes must always be avoided if possible.

People have tested with 4 and it's only proved that BP still wrecks with 4 members easily, 3 is the way to go.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

And that is not true at all. I wanna see u ladder with a 3 or even 4 pokemon baton pass chain. U wont succeed at all. But i understand were ur coming from, u want it to be banned coz u never play it and it buggs u, but u have to face the fact that a full bp chain with 3 or 4 pokes is impossible.

I'm loving your assumptions on what I do. . . Keep them coming.

I've actually dabbled in the playstyle myself, with the cookie cutter BP chain. And I stopped after my win ratio was 8 times higher than my loss ratio (24/3). It took simple predictions to win a game, when I say simple, I mean simple. But, that's not the reason it should be NERFED. (Not fucking banned, have you read anything we've said?)

It is not impossible to set up a BP chain with 3 'mons if you know what you're doing, it's a bit more difficult however, and that's the point, to make it more difficult to exploit. And if you don't grasp that, then there's no point in you being here.

Apparently, I did the impossible!
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-115481188

I did it again!
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-115483137

 

[Flamebot]

I've been testing a BP team. Lol ran into a haze blastiose. Also been trying Scizor on BP to take out Cleffables. It works quite well tbh.
I mentioned haze blastiose because it shows that simple prediction doesn't always work. Neither does switching Espeon into Thundurus lol.

People say BP teams require simple prediction but I'm starting to find that's not the case

 

[TheTMTrainerEffect]

The issue with banning the pokemon is the fact that it's this strategy alone that makes them OP, not the pokemon (HA or not) alone.

The issue with banning specific movesets is the fact it opens up the gate to a lot of changes (Darkvoid + Darkrai).

The problem with limiting the BP play style is the fact that the style has been here as a traditional strategy for a long time...

So, we reached something of a 3 way impasse. Those for limiting BP chain sizes, those for banning the pokemon, and those for banning move + ability combinations.

I say we take a bit of all 3. We limit the way the chain operates or based on how long the chain is (similar to my last post, but I am going to expand on it). It could go something like this...

2 Chain - Nothing is restricted, it operates the same is now.

3 Chain - Stored power can no longer be used together with magic guard.

4+ Chain - Scolipede with speed boost can not be used unless it is the last pokemon in the chain ( The one receiving the buffs). Also has everything under this tier.

I don't prepose these EXACT changes, this is just an idea.

 

[WebBowser]

Apparently, I did the impossible!
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-115481188

I did it again!
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-115483137

first off, replays at 1.1K mean little to nothing at all, just look at the "silly things on the OU ladder" thread.

Second, am I the only one who is disturbed by scolipede setting up multiple iron defenses in payback crawdaunt's face? Never mind the viability of payback crawdaunt, but here we have a spammed 100 BP STAB boosted by adaptability being used as complete and utter setup bait by a mon who doesn't even resist it.

Am I the only one who finds this deeply disturbing?

 

[Ramplestilskin]

Doesn't give anything new to the debate, but this replay really made me laugh out loud XD http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114982421

And, Rotosect, it seems weird to me that you say such a thing, I saw you posted a lot of things in this thread and it's been already "proved" or at least argue why 4-5 BP teams are still too strong

 

[Mikasa]

First off, I did not make those replays, Jukain did. I simply used them to support my position.



It's considerably less risky when the receiver has +2 defense and existent special bulk. It allows swap ins that would normally not be possible such as lando-I coming in on a megados waterfall for example.

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. +2 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 180-212 (56.2 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's pretty much worse case scenario too. A smart quick passer would pass his defense boost to a mon who takes neutral damage from the enemy STAB and abuse those defense boosts to smack the enemy in the face repeatedly.



I would like to address the bolded statements, as I believe them to be fallacious.

1. Offensive pressure works decently well in theory but in practice if it's not an ohko, scoli can iron d turn one and pass turn 2 if given a free swap in. Note that scoli doesn't have to lead either, if an opponent kills a mon with, say, conkeldurr, scoli can easily come in and set up an iron defense on the swap and in all likleyhood a second iron defense on the next mon. Indeed, even tflame fails to ohko a +2 scoli

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Scolipede: 186-218 (57.4 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So much for hardcounters....

Simply put, it's not that scoli has no counters, it's just that the number of mons he can setup in front of for absolutely free is unacceptable.

2. Most mons that would consider status moves cannot break a +2 scoli subs, further limiting the number of viable counters. Even if they could, it turns into a guessing game of "break subs or try to status", at which point one wrong guess means free subbed swap in. Not to mention that there is nothing stopping folks from pairing scoli with status immune mons like entei or conkeldurr

3. See the lando-I calc and CB talonflame calc. Lando-I and scoli are very frail mons. If they are taking a powerful SE stab without dieing, imagine how well mons with non negligible bulk will be taking similar powered moves?

4. I highly recommend you check the UU banlist FAQ on it's respective thread, more specifically the reasoning behind the klefkei ban. Just because the brokenness is not recognized by the playerbase at large does not stop something from being broken.

5. dah eff is a "hipotesys"? A horrid butchering of "Hypothesis"?

As for someone who believes that scoli is broken on only BP, Over Zealous appears to be holding this position, and furthermore is actually improving his arguments quite a lot.

1. The right offensive pressure does work, what you will do if I'm spamming Shadow Ball with my Aegislash (the most common pokémon in the game) and you have no normal or dark pokémon to BP into or the one you have I can easily handle even if he is at like +4 speed and +2 defense? I basically just need to spam the right move (preferably it needs to be a special move so Iron Defense becomes a non-issue) and you will have to either sacrifice Scolipede's or the recipient's HP or pass to something you really don't want to pass to.

2. Conkeldurr is by no means a good speed recipient as he is freaking slow and actually do like to be slow so he lands drain punch after being damaged, however I do get your point status are not the most reliable way but they still are effective with the right prediction, specially Sleep and Paralysis as if I para the recipient he basically only got +2 defense and can then be para haxxed or picked off by a special attacker and of course nothing likes to be put to sleep.

3. This is why I said Special SE moves you can pass +6 defense to a pokémon but if I manage to hit him on his SP Defense and on top of that with a SE move he will be heavily damaged or dead it's as simple as that I guess you can overcome this by passing to an AV mon or a mon with high Special Bulk and some EVs on Special Defense, but in the first case your mon has no offensive boosting item or boosting moves making it easier to wall and on the second case you may be making your pokémon less effective in matches where your opponent prevented you from passing.

4. But in Scolipede's case it's not the fact he gets little usage, great mons like the Deoxys Forms are receiving much less usage than they deserve, but the problem is that even top tier players are ranking him not too high on the OU Viability Rank Thread and yes in a tier with a huge player base as OU and where people do everything to win, someone would already have found a broken recipient to work with ID Scolipede.

5. Sorry about that it was very late when I wrote that post and english is not my first language.

6 (Over Zealous arguments). I'm not disputing Scolipede's brokeness on Full BP I'm just saying that Espeon is just as broken as he is and that if we ban any of the two BP may become manageable, what I'm asking is how do we decide which one to ban without being totally arbitrary and unfair with the players who use either of the mons? He uses the reasoning that BP was not broken in 5th gen so Scolipede is the problem but I'm also pretty sure non-Espeon BP is not broken even with Scolipede so how is it relevant that one came after the other?

 

[Of Moose & Men]

first off, replays at 1.1K mean little to nothing at all, just look at the "silly things on the OU ladder" thread.

Sigh, the point in that was to show it isn't impossible. . .

However, your other point I do agree with.

 

[Karxrida]

I don't understand why we're immediatly jumping to this "3 BP users limit", when it's obvious that BP teams work only because there are six team members that can barely counter most of the metagame.
If we're really going with this route then start with five and if it's still too much to handle then move to four and so on.
Slipperly slopes must always be avoided if possible.

Slipperly Slope arguments are a logical fallacy (though I've read that in very specific situations it is applicable, but I'm not confident enough in the source to back that claim up), and people have already posted that they have tested teams of 3-5 BPers and found that 4-5 is still broken, and possibly 3. In fact, having less Passers can actually make the chain more efficient by letting you run checks/counters to Fly-Spam and HO, the only playstyle that has a chance against BP chains. As others have said, a core of Scolipede, Espeon, and Sylveon is enough to screw over other playstyles, and you could run something like Mold Breaker Excadrill as the last recipient (immune to T-Wave and Toxic) and proceed to steamroll your opponent. I think we need to limit the number to 2 and nib this in the bud NOW.

 

[Arhan]

I Donot find them much of a problem I think we should wait and watch a bit,if there is a problem then we can try to act by either trying to discourage its use or by keeping a separate ladder for it to be used(let garbage go to the dump)

 

[WebBowser]

MuhFugginMoose Fair enough

1. The right offensive pressure does work, what you will do if I'm spamming Shadow Ball with my Aegislash (the most common pokémon in the game) and you have no normal or dark pokémon to BP into or the one you have I can easily handle even if he is at like +4 speed and +2 defense? I basically just need to spam the right move (preferably it needs to be a special move so Iron Defense becomes a non-issue) and you will have to either sacrifice Scolipede's or the recipient's HP or pass to something you really don't want to pass to.

2. Conkeldurr is by no means a good speed recipient as he is freaking slow and actually do like to be slow so he lands drain punch after being damaged, however I do get your point status are not the most reliable way but they still are effective with the right prediction, specially Sleep and Paralysis as if I para the recipient he basically only got +2 defense and can then be para haxxed or picked off by a special attacker and of course nothing likes to be put to sleep.

3. This is why I said Special SE moves you can pass +6 defense to a pokémon but if I manage to hit him on his SP Defense and on top of that with a SE move he will be heavily damaged or dead it's as simple as that I guess you can overcome this by passing to an AV mon or a mon with high Special Bulk and some EVs on Special Defense, but in the first case your mon has no offensive boosting item or boosting moves making it easier to wall and on the second case you may be making your pokémon less effective in matches where your opponent prevented you from passing.

4. But in Scolipede's case it's not the fact he gets little usage, great mons like the Deoxys Forms are receiving much less usage than they deserve, but the problem is that even top tier players are ranking him not too high on the OU Viability Rank Thread and yes in a tier with a huge player base as OU and where people do everything to win, someone would already have found a broken recipient to work with ID Scolipede.

5. Sorry about that it was very late when I wrote that post and english is not my first language.

6 (Over Zealous arguments). I'm not disputing Scolipede's brokeness on Full BP I'm just saying that Espeon is just as broken as he is and that if we ban any of the two BP may become manageable, what I'm asking is how do we decide which one to ban without being totally arbitrary and unfair with the players who use either of the mons? He uses the reasoning that BP was not broken in 5th gen so Scolipede is the problem but I'm also pretty sure non-Espeon BP is not broken even with Scolipede so how is it relevant that one came after the other?

1. Ok cool, so we have one pokemon that might be able inconvenience scoli's reciever (aeigi cannot stop scoli from setting up iron D though, as shown here 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 217-256 (66.9 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO + 4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. +2 252 HP / 252 Def Scolipede: 27-33 (8.3 - 10.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever = GL), and this is assuming that the team has no swap ins for aegislash (which would be a dumb mistake on the team builder's part). The point is that every time a mon dies, that is an opportunity for the player to bring in scoli for absolutely free. And if the mon who did the killing can't stop scoli from boosting, scoli WILL get his +2 defense and WILL be able to pass it, no questions asked. it's this reliability that makes scoli so powerful.

2. Ok, fair point of durr being a bad example for recipient (it is a great example of a good mon who is total setup bait for scoli though).

3. Thing is, scoli has 5 teammates, all of whom are potential recipients. Even chansey can be utterly terrifying if it's passed +2 defense. You don't HAVE to swap into an SE attack.

4. Meh, not gonna argue on this one, but pokemon is a huge game. The fact that a single mon that doesn't appear too remarkable at first glance turns out to be OP is not out of the realm of possibility (see excadrill).

 

[matimooo]

I'm loving your assumptions on what I do. . . Keep them coming.

I've actually dabbled in the playstyle myself, with the cookie cutter BP chain. And I stopped after my win ratio was 8 times higher than my loss ratio (24/3). It took simple predictions to win a game, when I say simple, I mean simple. But, that's not the reason it should be NERFED. (Not fucking banned, have you read anything we've said?)

It is not impossible to set up a BP chain with 3 'mons if you know what you're doing, it's a bit more difficult however, and that's the point, to make it more difficult to exploit. And if you don't grasp that, then there's no point in you being here.

Apparently, I did the impossible!
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-115481188

I did it again!
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-115483137

Omg man, its pathetic to try to prove your point in 1100 ranked games. And the 24/3 is not as good as u seem to think... Ive got over 20/0 many times w/o using a bp team. And its obvious that it wont be banned and that it will be restricted. So what are you trying to prove? What i was saying was that the variant where u pass offensive stuff will be the only thing that will be left of baton pass.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Omg man, its pathetic to try to prove your point in 1100 ranked games. And the 24/3 is not as good as u seem to think... Ive got over 20/0 many times w/o using a bp team. And its obvious that it wont be banned and that it will be restricted. So what are you trying to prove? What i was saying was that the variant where u pass offensive stuff will be the only thing that will be left of baton pass.

Sigh. . .
The point in me posting that replay was to show it isn't impossible like you say it is. . .
I got on put those three together, got on an alt and went at it.

I simply stopped at 24/3 because it took no skill to get me there and it was obnoxious using it. I felt bad for using it at all.
What I'm trying to prove was pretty obvious actually. . .

It is not impossible to pull a win with a 3 Poke BP chain. It takes a bit more skill and is also a bit more manageable. That is the point in this thread.

It's unfortunate you didn't grasp that the first time. . .

 

[Myrmidon]

ok, I know I'm not exactly on the top tier of play right now, but I have to ask a question: Why not just ban Speed Boost?

The original plan for banning Blaziken over Speed Boost Blaziken (and, therefore, making a complex ban) was that Blaze Blaziken wasn't worth saving. By banning Speed Boost you can allow Blaziken back into the metagame, kill Speed Boost Scolipede (and hurt Baton Pass in the process), and Speed Boost Ninjask "isn't worth saving".

Forgive me if I'm out of place here, but I think this'll benefit the community more than a complex ban, or banning BP outright.

 

[Aragorn the King]

ok, I know I'm not exactly on the top tier of play right now, but I have to ask a question: Why not just ban Speed Boost?

The original plan for banning Blaziken over Speed Boost Blaziken (and, therefore, making a complex ban) was that Blaze Blaziken wasn't worth saving. By banning Speed Boost you can allow Blaziken back into the metagame, kill Speed Boost Scolipede (and hurt Baton Pass in the process), and Speed Boost Ninjask "isn't worth saving".

Forgive me if I'm out of place here, but I think this'll benefit the community more than a complex ban, or banning BP outright.

There are viable speed boost users, and just banning the ability would eliminate these viable choices.

Right now the only options really being considered are a cap at 3 pokemon with baton pass or a cap with 4.

 

[Srn]

I think it's been shown over the course of this entire thread that no decision has been made. Haunter himself said he preferred a complex ban in this case; he did not say that is the final decision, and he has encouraged discussion for other, perhaps more effective solutions. (His own opinion is also subject to change.)

Fair enough, it isn't the final decision.

Also, it was blatantly stated we merely want to rebalance Baton Pass, not kill it or make it unviable. And we've reached absolutely no conclusion; that's why this thread is still open.

That's why I suggested we discuss the level to which we want to "rebalance" baton pass. There are varying degrees of a drop in efficiency baton pass will recieve from what we do, which is what we need to get sorted out first.

Give up comparing Ninjask and Scolipede, and quit pretending Ninjask replaces Scolipede. Remove your bias from one replay.

Now i'm not saying that they both play the exact same role or something, they don't. But full baton pass was pretty much just as stupid in 5th gen too, and it worked with ninjask on there, so quit pretending like ninjask is total complete shit and can't do anything on baton pass.

Scolipede in a team of 5 other users of Baton Pass is broken because of Scolipede.

lol
i'd try to argue that espeon plays a far more important role, but like you said

Trust me, it's hardly worth replying to a wall, as providing you deep analysis and hard facts won't move or sway you.

Remove Scolipede, and suddenly those 5 Baton Passers aren't broken or uncompetitive; they're a threat, but more manageable to deal with. That's the goal of this thread: come up with a rebalance to Baton Pass that simply makes the strategy more manageable.

Yeah, they're more manageable to deal with, but is that really enough? Have you seen how baton pass in 5th gen works? It works pretty well, and just getting rid of scolipede really isn't enough.

Also, you haven't replied to one key point i've made:
Scolipede isn't the problem, scolipede in a team of 5 other users of baton pass is.
We need to think of how to fix scolipede in a team of 5 other users of baton pass, not scolipede in general.

How in the world is banning scolipede efficient when we destroy any healthy and viable role that scolipede outside of baton pass played in the metagame? That's simply unacceptable, and is not the answer here.

Oh, I happen to agree Scolipede, in of itself, isn't broken either. It's the people who make ignorant presumptions, instead of actually reading my arguments, that think I find Scolipede broken by itself. He isn't broken; his Uber-like support for the chain makes the playstyle overcentralizing. Unlike any other Pokemon, he can't be stopped from doing what he wants to do, and reliably does so two or more times over the course of a match.

Umm, Talonflame and Mega Pinsir are pretty good at stopping what scolipede does. Same goes with NP+taunt thundurus.

It's already been explained Ninjask and Scolipede do not perform the exact same, not even against Stall. Ninjask cannot boost Def, and cannot re-establish a chain nor switch in by existence of Stealth Rocks, passive damage, or even the weakest attack. Boosting Def does matter against Stall, by the way, as it aids in Stored Power's base power.

Ninjask can receive defense boosts from vaporeon or another team member (not hard to do against stall) and proceed to avoid passive damage from a sub it can effortlessly set up and freely generate speed boosts in the manner as scolipede.
They're not the same, and scolipede does this much better, but come on! Just the fact that they both have baton pass and speed boost makes them extremely similar.

Nevertheless, Stall still faces the same primary problems even against 3 users: Scolipede, Espeon, Sylveon/Smeargle. Vaporeon is unneeded against Stall, as Scolipede boosts the Def effortlessly.

Vaporeon still is used in a baton pass team, so it can set defense boosts in scolipede's absence. It's less effective, but especially against stall, it can definitely still work.

Mr Mime isn't necessary; he can Substitute and perhaps Calm Mind, nothing Espeon or Sylveon can't do. With auto speed initiative granted by Scolipede, the entire team avoids status, Trick, etc with Substitute. Because Scolipede will max Speed and Def with no effort, Stall is reduced to Special attacks, and after an easy Calm Mind or two, Stored Power outpaces everything and has the raw power to obliterate even Quagsire.

Ninjask is providing the same subs and speed initiative that scolipede is. And it's not too hard for vaporeon at +2 speed to effortlessly set acid armors in the same manner scolipede is doing. Your argument has even less relevance against stall, where it is easier to win with or without scolipede

Without Scolipede, Baton Pass is more manageable against Stall, having to spend valuable turns boosting Speed via Agility, Def separately, and more susceptible to Taunt, phasing, just by sheer risk of frequent switches.

You're totally over hyping this guy at this point.
There are a lot of things wrong with this sentence
Stall is gonna have an insane amount of trouble with baton pass unless espeon is gone. Espeon is the key member here, not Scolipede.
Baton pass is a little more manageable against stall, but the difference is honestly negligible.
This is against stall, matches are going to be drawn out, and the "valuable" turns "wasted" using agility really don't mean much. Besides, ninjask is still getting up speed boosts for free.
You boost defense separately either way
What user of taunt is actually gonna threaten the KO on espeon and be found on good stall without performing its role worse than another pokemon?
Not to mention baton pass itself can run some taunt users (mr. mime) to counteract the opposing tuants.
You still are getting defensive boosts pretty easily against stall, you're not THAT much more vulnerable to phazing
Vaporeon is still reliably getting enough defensive boosts for the team to make frequent switches not too risky either :I

Limiting the number of Passers to 3 doesn't just "weaken" the playstyle; it kills it entirely. It doesn't just "technically" remove full chain/defensive chain, it kills it entirely. A Baton Pass clause of 3 doesn't morph the playstyle into Balanced. (And why should Smogon turn Baton Pass into Balanced? Balanced is Balanced, Baton Pass is Baton Pass.) The 3 other Pokemon are entirely non-supportive and non-synergistic with your Baton Pass core. It's literally filler. Switching to one of your non-Baton Pass users "to counter" means you've ended your own chain, self-defeated your own playstyle.

Then why were several 5th gen baton pass teams so successful? The overhype is so real.
Who said we're morphing baton pass into a balanced playstyle? Where did this even come from?
And the 3 other pokemon are used to get rid of possible strong hitters and other niche pokemon that could be used to stop the baton pass chain of 3 from thoroughly working. They are certainly not "filler," and can be chosen so that they can quite nicely support the chain. This is literally telling me that a sweeper doesn't need support or something, that a sweeper can 6-0 teams all by itself and needs nothing by its side at all.
And who said that you have to switch into a pokemon that doesn't have baton pass? Even if you do, that pokemon is bound to be threatening, and likely to just flat out sweep, regardless of not being able to continue the chain.

While a core of Scolipede, Espeon, and Sylveon/Smeargle can be effective, that's all it is, a core. The Baton Pass archetype will be dead, and Scolipede's auto x3 Speed and x2 Def will remain, the main problem.

Meanwhile, that core is totally destroyed by a number of pokemon, and still performs against a similar number of pokemon extremely well!
For example, there's now zero switch-ins to any strong special attacks. Scolipede isn't helping one bit against those. There are even several physical attacks that required the presence of vaporeon to take on! The flaws in this core are apparent, but it still friggin works! Smeargle can put a key member on stall teams to sleep (like a potential hazer/unaware user) and get up boosts to pass to either espeon or scolipede, who will continue to boost until stall cannot touch it! The core is clearly less effective, but also much easier to handle. Which is exactly what we're aiming for here.

Do we want to kill the archetype unnecessarily, or ban the actual problem that has led to its ladder dominance and overcentralization of the meta? "But Scolipede isn't the only problem!" And what is, among 1 of 2 of Baton Pass' new tools? Scolipede is unquestionably the root problem.

I thought we started this thread with the intent of nerfing full baton pass, as that is what we deemed to be broken. Scolipede's absence just isn't gona change enough.
Ok, if scolipede is the entire goddam root of the problem, let's look at some methods that stop baton pass when scolipede is gone!
Taunt? oh wait magic bounce
Roar? ^^^
Strong attacks? Oh look I still have a vaporeon and a sylveon and smeargle to handle offensive threats.

Look at it this way:
Scolipede can perform multiple roles: boosting defense+speed efficiently. Yay
However, while it may not be as efficient, other pokemon on baton pass can do this too!
Ninjask, zapdos, and smeargle can all boost speed, vaporeon, mega scizor, mega mawile can boost defense, you get the idea
So while it may not be as efficient, the role that scolipede plays can be performed by other members. It is possible.

However,
Can espeon's (and mega absol's, let's pretend i mention it alongside espeon everytime i talk about a magic bouncer) really be replaced?
No other pokemon can fill in what espeon does! No other pokemon, not even a combination, can do what espeon does for baton pass!!!
It's not a deal of what pokemon can do the job more efficiently, because there is none! Espeon is the only pokemon that fill in its precious role for baton pass teams! Without it, you're blatantly suspectible to all kinds of taunt, encore, phazing, you name it!

Atleast other pokemon can fill in for scolipede, and make the team not totally suspectible to strong attacks. There is something you can do against HO with the absence of scolipede. But the same cannot be said about espeon. There is nothing you can do against phazing/taunting/encoring if espeon is gone.

I thought it was painfully obvious, so I didn't think I would have to bold it, but:
Scolipede is not the root of Baton Pass, Espeon is!

Without Scolipede, Baton Pass is much more manageable for the metagame as a whole, without actually killing the entire archetype.

banning scolipede does make baton pass a lot easier to fight, and doesn't kill the archetype, but is that it?
Do you really think that scolipede such a huge role such that just by getting rid of it baton pass will become totally viable and fair to play against? Because this is what we're aiming for, and a full baton pass team with just ninjask>scolipede is still beating the crap out of stall, which is what we want to avoid.

 

[Flamebot]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-115561499
Not sure if people think that this was a good battle. But it does kinda show how broken bp is. (I just started to try it in Ubers :D)

 

[New Light]

In my experience, the biggest problem with Baton Pass teams is Magic Bounce. Banning BP+ Magic Bounce would severely nerf BP teams. As it is now, it's damn near impossible to break BP chains by using phazing, status or Encore because players can simply BP out to Espeon to avoid this, meaning you either have to outright kill something with multiple boosts up or rely on Perish Song to beat it.

I don't think banning Scolipede will hurt BP much at all

 

[Flamebot]

In my experience, the biggest problem with Baton Pass teams is Magic Bounce. Banning BP+ Magic Bounce would severely nerf BP teams. As it is now, it's damn near impossible to break BP chains by using phazing, status or Encore because players can simply BP out to Espeon or Xatu to avoid this, meaning you either have to outright kill something with multiple boosts up or rely on Perish Song to beat it.

Or you lead with a pokemon that commonly has Taunt and stuff and you just attack and kill Espeon cuz it will likely switch in.

 

[Shoot For Zero]

I don't see bp scolipede as the main problem cause a baton pass team can function without scolipede

Where was Baton Pass in BW without Scolipede?

As it is now, it's damn near impossible to break BP chains by using phazing, status or Encore because players can simply BP out to Espeon or Xatu to avoid this, meaning you either have to outright kill something with multiple boosts up or rely on Perish Song to beat it.

Xatu can't run Magic Bounce + BP (Natu learns BP in XD, which came out before Magic Bounce).

 

[Masati]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-115561499
Not sure if people think that this was a good battle. But it does kinda show how broken bp is. (I just started to try it in Ubers :D)

that replay shows nothing at all. you were playing with some serious fire hoping blaziken didnt wake up and then you seemed to just be passing around for kicks and giggles. your oppenent didnt even know about magic bounce... its a 1000 rated ubers match and you used hidden power on your espeon...