Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

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I don't know if it would work, but could we ban bp to lower tiers where carrying a pokemon with haze wouldn't be so difficult.

But that probably won't work though, and bp teams with 4 users I find are difficult against so at most 3 users max in my opinion

The three main pokemon I keep hearing about is Espeon, scolipede, and smeagle, can't we just ban those three from using bp in teams and/or together or will that be to much or to little to solve the problem

I don't know if it would work, but could we ban bp to lower tiers where carrying a pokemon with haze wouldn't be so difficult.

But that probably won't work though, and bp teams with 4 users I find are difficult against so at most 3 users max in my opinion

The three main pokemon I keep hearing about is Espeon, scolipede, and smeagle, can't we just ban those three from using bp in teams and/or together or will that be to much or to little to solve the problem
Just to expand on my point, we could put the broken bp users into the higher tiers and allow them bp but only allow bp teams in lower tiers where haze can be used effectively.


Subject 18 Edit: Learn to multi quote.
 
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Rowdog, why can't you comprehend the simple fact I never said Smogon won't initiate a complex ban, but rather they are reluctant to do so unless absolutely necessary? Complex bans and special clauses are on the table, but only if they are necessary and efficient.

Yes; let's discuss how to rebalance Baton Pass, not relinquish the archetype by restricting only 3 users, and killing the concept of a defensive and full chain. Let's discuss how it is more simple and efficient than banning the root problem, Scolipede.
Although it is indeed simpler, I would disagree that it is more efficient.

Scolipede is relatively easy to stop, and there are many popular OU things that can stop it. For stall Scolipede is practically no problem whatsoever, as defence boosts and speed boosts are in most cases little concern for stall who uses passive damage to win games, and have (or should have) counters to boosters in phasers, taunt, encore, haze and perish song, the last 3 moves are less common one of the first 2 is generally staple. It is Scolipedes team members which are the problem for stall.

On offensive teams there are at least 3 viable checks that can stop it that I can think of off the top of my head: Mega-Pinser, Talonflame and Thundurus-I. The first 2 Pokemons flying priority can bust through Scolipede before it gets up enough boosts and can potentially setup SD on Protects, and Thundurus-I's Prankster taunt renders most Scolipede sets useless against it.

It is the other team members that better abuse its stat boosts and are able to preserve them (as Scolipede cannot with the amount of moves that can stop).

This is why I am in support of limiting the amount of BP users in a team to 3, as there will be always be holes that both offensive and defensive strategies can bust through, as none of the Pokemon are broken without another 2 or 3 in there chain and BP becomes much more manageable than a Scolipede ban which leaves quite a few leftover issues unaddressed.
 
And that is not true at all. I wanna see u ladder with a 3 or even 4 pokemon baton pass chain. U wont succeed at all. But i understand were ur coming from, u want it to be banned coz u never play it and it buggs u, but u have to face the fact that a full bp chain with 3 or 4 pokes is impossible.



Ur making no sence. In before some bp chains runned 5 bpassers and 1 sweeper, for instance sigilyph. But every single bp chain has 6 bp now -_-. So u have the wrong idea of a full baton pass chain, which is what were trying to deal with here... Anyway if u think bp is no less viable vith 4 pokes than with 6 pokes u shud start proving it coz thats just dumb.
Read th previous posts. Webowser has proved that 4 mons is enough for a BP chain to be strong. And I feel that iron defense Scolipede shouldn't be banned. Iron Defense can be left to vaporeon, which does the job better anyway. Scolipede can leave the extra move slot for toxic.
 
Although it is indeed simpler, I would disagree that it is more efficient.

Scolipede is relatively easy to stop, and there are many popular OU things that can stop it. For stall Scolipede is practically no problem whatsoever, as defence boosts and speed boosts are in most cases little concern for stall who uses passive damage to win games, and have (or should have) counters to boosters in phasers, taunt, encore, haze and perish song, the last 3 moves are less common one of the first 2 is generally staple. It is Scolipedes team members which are the problem for stall.

On offensive teams there are at least 3 viable checks that can stop it that I can think of off the top of my head: Mega-Pinser, Talonflame and Thundurus-I. The first 2 Pokemons flying priority can bust through Scolipede before it gets up enough boosts and can potentially setup SD on Protects, and Thundurus-I's Prankster taunt renders most Scolipede sets useless against it.

It is the other team members that better abuse its stat boosts and are able to preserve them (as Scolipede cannot with the amount of moves that can stop).

This is why I am in support of limiting the amount of BP users in a team to 3, as there will be always be holes that both offensive and defensive strategies can bust through, as none of the Pokemon are broken without another 2 or 3 in there chain and BP becomes much more manageable than a Scolipede ban which leaves quite a few leftover issues unaddressed.
It's relatively easy to say "Scolipede is relatively easy to stop" but remains a falsehood. Scolipede's two hard counters in OU are indeed Mega Pinsir and Talonflame, but nothing much else prevents Scolipede from supporting the chain overwhelmingly. Scolipede can scout regular Taunt/Encore with Protect, and evade unsuspecting Taunts or even Prankster Taunt via Mental Herb, and even Pinsir or Talonflame must switch in, giving Scolipede ample time to put up a Substitute.

Acquiring large amounts of boosts, with little to no effort, is a major problem for all archetypes, teams, and the meta as a whole. Of course there's plenty of better Pokemon to abuse the stat boosts, Sylveon and Espeon in particular, but Scolipede offers such boosts with no effort whatsoever, and the opponent can do virtually nothing to stop it.

While Stall doesn't care about the Speed and Defensive boosts so much, Scolipede's incredible versatility enables him to run Swords Dance, Spikes and even Toxic Spikes, albeit much less common. Further, even Scolipede's trivially acquired x4 Speed and x2-4 Def prove problematic for Stall by virtue of Stored Power. Unaware Quagsire, a bulwark, might ignore the boosts, but cannot ignore Stored Power's base power. With the auto speed-initiative provided by Scolipede, the entire chain can evade status moves like Toxic with Substitute, and unboosted Sylveon can wear down Quagsire via Hyper Voice. With 3 Pokemon, or 6, Stall will always have more trouble against Baton Pass, but Scolipede boosts several stats simultaneously, and has no trouble restarting the chain as many times as needed, in order to overwhelm with Stored Power. But does Scolipede + Espeon + Sylveon/Smeargle still stifle the development of Stall? And moreso than 5 or 6 Passers without Scolipede?

Without Scolipede, however, boosting will be a much more manageable affair for the metagame as a whole. Without Scolipede, players aren't forced to run Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, or niche counters like Red Card (which only stops the chain once, which is easily set up again), and without him, Baton Pass users require much more setup, more unreliably, and unsafely. Speed and Def, for example, must be obtained separately, requiring much more setup time, riskier, frequent switches, more prone to Taunt, Encore, phasing, etc.

By forcing Baton Pass users to obtain Speed via Agility, and boost stats separately instead of auto and simultaneously, teams have a much more manageable time disrupting, delaying or countering the chain.

A 3 user Baton Pass clause will effectively nerf Baton Pass; it'll be a harder nerf than Gen VI's rebalance of weather, but destroy the entire archetype of offensive and defensive Baton Pass chains. A 3 user Baton Pass clause will not just make Baton Pass more manageable; it'll reduce it to half/quick Pass. And by extension restricts playstyle teambuilding. It renders players who want to use the Baton Pass strategy to slap on 3 non-supportive, non-synergistic Pokemon with Scolipede, Espeon, and Sylveon or Smeargle.

Is this what Smogon wishes to do? If so, a 3 user Baton Pass clause is super effective, but OHKOs the chain archetype entirely and unnecessarily.

Remember, the entire OU metagame has contorted around the Baton Pass chain style, and not because someone Passed Sylveon a few boosts. It's because a Pokemon named Scolipede exists, that with overwhelming support, and so few counters, and its 100% reliability auto-guarantees speed initiative, the bulk for the chain to survive all physical presence, and the support to do so numerous times, makes the strategy uncompetitive if not overcentralizing.

With 6 Baton Pass users, it's true the chain can counter most of its traditional counters, but it requires speed initiative and possibly bulk to do this; all effortlessly given courtesy of Scolipede. Without the initial Iron Defense, Vaporeon is forced to switch in and do so, possibly outpaced and defeated before it can. If Vaporeon is unable to Acid Armor quickly, even Mr Mime and Sylveon may have trouble switching into attacks, nevermind remaining for Calm Minds. Without the auto-speed initiative, something like Zapdos is forced to switch in (and survive) and spend at least 2 or 3 turns boosting Agility. Without Scolipede's reliability at setting up multiple times during the match, a player who breaks or defeats a single chain usually spells out DOOM for the Baton Pass player.

Without Scolipede, Baton Pass, the playstyle, will still be on the threatlist. Players still must consider it when teambuilding, but with a much more manageable chance. With a Baton Pass clause, all players must still deal with Scolipede's overwhelming support on a half/quick Pass team. Between just Scolipede and Espeon, contrary to popular belief, unprepared teams will be easily swept. Auto x3 Speed, x2 Def, and possibly Substitute, Espeon is free to Calm Mind once or twice and sweep. Where she can't, Sylveon can. (Espeon is also free to run Dazzling Gleam over Substitute, in cases of half/quick Pass team variations where switching is not an option.)

It only seems fair to allow players to use the strategy of a dedicated chain at their own peril. The strategy of passing boosts is not inherently broken or uncompetitive, it's actually a very fragile strategy. A single mistake or overprediction can end the chain. It only becomes uncompetitive and/or overcentralizing when a Pokemon with an astounding support functionality as to be considered Ubers, runs rampant, and allows the playstyle to dominate the ladder.

It's pick your poison: establish a complex ban/clause and limit Baton Pass to 3 or 4 users, effectively killing the chain archetype, or banning an Uber-worthy support Pokemon. The collateral damage? Players can't use Scolipede in OU. But who uses Scolipede if not for its vast support functionality? Why should Smogon refrain from banning Scolipede as means to preserve its other sets, which go unused and obsolete anyways? But Scolipede is a legitimate half/quick Pass user, correct? Why ban that? Because he will always be paired with the likes of Espeon, Sylveon and/or Smeargle. Anotherwords, the banning of Scolipede has little collateral damage, certainly less than a Baton Pass clause, and possibly more effective.
 
It's relatively easy to say "Scolipede is relatively easy to stop" but remains a falsehood. Scolipede's two hard counters in OU are indeed Mega Pinsir and Talonflame, but nothing much else prevents Scolipede from supporting the chain overwhelmingly. Scolipede can scout regular Taunt/Encore with Protect, and evade unsuspecting Taunts or even Prankster Taunt via Mental Herb, and even Pinsir or Talonflame must switch in, giving Scolipede ample time to put up a Substitute.

Acquiring large amounts of boosts, with little to no effort, is a major problem for all archetypes, teams, and the meta as a whole. Of course there's plenty of better Pokemon to abuse the stat boosts, Sylveon and Espeon in particular, but Scolipede offers such boosts with no effort whatsoever, and the opponent can do virtually nothing to stop it.

While Stall doesn't care about the Speed and Defensive boosts so much, Scolipede's incredible versatility enables him to run Swords Dance, Spikes and even Toxic Spikes, albeit much less common. Further, even Scolipede's trivially acquired x4 Speed and x2-4 Def prove problematic for Stall by virtue of Stored Power. Unaware Quagsire, a bulwark, might ignore the boosts, but cannot ignore Stored Power's base power. With the auto speed-initiative provided by Scolipede, the entire chain can evade status moves like Toxic with Substitute, and unboosted Sylveon can wear down Quagsire via Hyper Voice. With 3 Pokemon, or 6, Stall will always have more trouble against Baton Pass, but Scolipede boosts several stats simultaneously, and has no trouble restarting the chain as many times as needed, in order to overwhelm with Stored Power. But does Scolipede + Espeon + Sylveon/Smeargle still stifle the development of Stall? And moreso than 5 or 6 Passers without Scolipede?

Without Scolipede, however, boosting will be a much more manageable affair for the metagame as a whole. Without Scolipede, players aren't forced to run Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, or niche counters like Red Card (which only stops the chain once, which is easily set up again), and without him, Baton Pass users require much more setup, more unreliably, and unsafely. Speed and Def, for example, must be obtained separately, requiring much more setup time, riskier, frequent switches, more prone to Taunt, Encore, phasing, etc.

By forcing Baton Pass users to obtain Speed via Agility, and boost stats separately instead of auto and simultaneously, teams have a much more manageable time disrupting, delaying or countering the chain.

A 3 user Baton Pass clause will effectively nerf Baton Pass; it'll be a harder nerf than Gen VI's rebalance of weather, but destroy the entire archetype of offensive and defensive Baton Pass chains. A 3 user Baton Pass clause will not just make Baton Pass more manageable; it'll reduce it to half/quick Pass. And by extension restricts playstyle teambuilding. It renders players who want to use the Baton Pass strategy to slap on 3 non-supportive, non-synergistic Pokemon with Scolipede, Espeon, and Sylveon or Smeargle.

Is this what Smogon wishes to do? If so, a 3 user Baton Pass clause is super effective, but OHKOs the chain archetype entirely and unnecessarily.

Remember, the entire OU metagame has contorted around the Baton Pass chain style, and not because someone Passed Sylveon a few boosts. It's because a Pokemon named Scolipede exists, that with overwhelming support, and so few counters, and its 100% reliability auto-guarantees speed initiative, the bulk for the chain to survive all physical presence, and the support to do so numerous times, makes the strategy uncompetitive if not overcentralizing.

With 6 Baton Pass users, it's true the chain can counter most of its traditional counters, but it requires speed initiative and possibly bulk to do this; all effortlessly given courtesy of Scolipede. Without the initial Iron Defense, Vaporeon is forced to switch in and do so, possibly outpaced and defeated before it can. If Vaporeon is unable to Acid Armor quickly, even Mr Mime and Sylveon may have trouble switching into attacks, nevermind remaining for Calm Minds. Without the auto-speed initiative, something like Zapdos is forced to switch in (and survive) and spend at least 2 or 3 turns boosting Agility. Without Scolipede's reliability at setting up multiple times during the match, a player who breaks or defeats a single chain usually spells out DOOM for the Baton Pass player.

Without Scolipede, Baton Pass, the playstyle, will still be on the threatlist. Players still must consider it when teambuilding, but with a much more manageable chance. With a Baton Pass clause, all players must still deal with Scolipede's overwhelming support on a half/quick Pass team. Between just Scolipede and Espeon, contrary to popular belief, unprepared teams will be easily swept. Auto x3 Speed, x2 Def, and possibly Substitute, Espeon is free to Calm Mind once or twice and sweep. Where she can't, Sylveon can. (Espeon is also free to run Dazzling Gleam over Substitute, in cases of half/quick Pass team variations where switching is not an option.)

It only seems fair to allow players to use the strategy of a dedicated chain at their own peril. The strategy of passing boosts is not inherently broken or uncompetitive, it's actually a very fragile strategy. A single mistake or overprediction can end the chain. It only becomes uncompetitive and/or overcentralizing when a Pokemon with an astounding support functionality as to be considered Ubers, runs rampant, and allows the playstyle to dominate the ladder.

It's pick your poison: establish a complex ban/clause and limit Baton Pass to 3 or 4 users, effectively killing the chain archetype, or banning an Uber-worthy support Pokemon. The collateral damage? Players can't use Scolipede in OU. But who uses Scolipede if not for its vast support functionality? Why should Smogon refrain from banning Scolipede as means to preserve its other sets, which go unused and obsolete anyways? But Scolipede is a legitimate half/quick Pass user, correct? Why ban that? Because he will always be paired with the likes of Espeon, Sylveon and/or Smeargle. Anotherwords, the banning of Scolipede has little collateral damage, certainly less than a Baton Pass clause, and possibly more effective.
Scolipede gets banned (in your scenario) --> Baton Pass teams switch to Ninjask (which won't get banned in a million years I'll give you that) --> Baton Pass teams are only slightly nerfed; they've been using Ninjask for ages, Scolipede was merely a nice "upgrade" in XY) --> Nobody can use Scolipede outside of Baton Pass teams even though it's an excellent Spiker/Revenge killer with LO.

To me this doesn't sound like the best solution, and I didn't have to write 12 paragraphs to come to that conclusion...
 
Read th previous posts. Webowser has proved that 4 mons is enough for a BP chain to be strong. And I feel that iron defense Scolipede shouldn't be banned. Iron Defense can be left to vaporeon, which does the job better anyway. Scolipede can leave the extra move slot for toxic.
OK. so i watched the replays and they prove nothing for me yet... When u post instant replays like that u can choose the best ones, and in some of them the player just got extremely lucky and overall all the games arent high ranked games. I mean rank 1700 isnt enough when people are on the top of the lader using bp, like myself.
 
OK. so i watched the replays and they prove nothing for me yet... When u post instant replays like that u can choose the best ones, and in some of them the player just got extremely lucky and overall all the games arent high ranked games. I mean rank 1700 isnt enough when people are on the top of the lader using bp, like myself.
Uh huh, so you have abused BP to get to the top of the ladder? Tell me, what is your Showdown username? Oh and Rank 1700 is enough when you consider that most of the too players are up there, and if they're getting beaten by BP, it kinda sorta proves the point (Luck or no luck, BP is broken)
 
Over Zealous You seem to be under the impression that 3 BP mons per team means you only get 3 mons per team. On the contrary, it means you now have to build an actually competent team to wear down the chain's checks and counters, and use actual skill to win with BP. This isn't killing the playstyle. It's taking the autopilot off and nerfing it.
I seem to be under the impression a Baton Pass clause means Scolipede + Espeon + Sylveon/Smeargle + 3 other non-supportive, non-synergistic Pokemon. In short, the chain archetype is killed, and it's reduced to a half-Pass team at best. Smogon wishes to make the archetype more managable, not kill it, unless absolutely necessary.

Removing auto-pilot: removing Scolipede.

Scolipede gets banned (in your scenario) --> Baton Pass teams switch to Ninjask (which won't get banned in a million years I'll give you that) --> Baton Pass teams are only slightly nerfed; they've been using Ninjask for ages, Scolipede was merely a nice "upgrade" in XY) --> Nobody can use Scolipede outside of Baton Pass teams even though it's an excellent Spiker/Revenge killer with LO.

To me this doesn't sound like the best solution, and I didn't have to write 12 paragraphs to come to that conclusion...
Baton Pass teams switch to Ninjask, which is restricted to a suicide lead role, which can't switch in on account of its lack of bulk and 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, which fails to support the chain beyond a Speed Boost or two, and cannot boost Def, and is overall more susceptible to priority, and can be more easily Taunted on account of its usually required Focus Sash. There's a reason Ninjask didn't lead Baton Pass to dominate the ladders, but Scolipede did.

In other words, stop comparing Ninjask to Scolipede, which is laughably pointless and depressing.

And that's the problem, you didn't write anything useful to this thread, just tried to reduce my argument to absurdity with an inferior replacement to Scolipede. Get this through your head: nothing can replace Scolipede and do its job. Nothing can replace Scolipede and do its job more optimally and effectively. Scolipede provides an Uber-like support for Baton Pass.

I wrote much more than 12 paragraphs; I've engaged in this thread for the greater good of the metagame. You've provided nothing besides "Ninjask can replace ScolipedeLOL!" when clearly it is inferior and outclassed.
 
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Srn

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Rowdog, why can't you comprehend the simple fact I never said Smogon won't initiate a complex ban, but rather they are reluctant to do so unless absolutely necessary? Complex bans and special clauses are on the table, but only if they are necessary and efficient.

Yes; let's discuss how to rebalance Baton Pass, not relinquish the archetype by restricting only 3 users, and killing the concept of a defensive and full chain. Let's discuss how it is more simple and efficient than banning the root problem, Scolipede.
I think it's been shown several times throughout the thread by haunter himself that this time is an exception, and that we're willing to do a complex ban, so please stop bringing it up in your arguments. We may not like to do them as a community, but we have agreed to do so this one time.

Also, what we're essentially trying to do here is indeed kill the concept of a defensive and full chain. I think we've reached the conclusion that these chains are pretty freaking broken, and that we need to make them easier to handle.
I didn't believe that banning Scolipede would make enough of a difference, so I requested a friend to play a game against me using baton pass without ninjask. I posted this replay on page 85, and as you can see, the absence of scolipede made no difference in the outcome of the match whatsoever.
I realize that this is just one match, bu consider that! There is an instance in which your solution did absolutely nothing for us, and that is clearly unacceptable. We're looking to nerf baton pass 100% of the time somehow, in every scenario, and banning scolipede won't really work

Not to mention that scolipede is a perfectly fine pokemon outside of full baton pass.
This has been said quite a few times throughout the forum, so if you've been contributing to this forum "for the greater good of the metagame" then you should probably have been paying attention to this:
Scolipede isn't the problem, scolipede in a team of 5 other users of baton pass is.
We need to think of how to fix scolipede in a team of 5 other users of baton pass, not scolipede in general.
 
Unwatch it. Anyway Scolipede has no viable use outside of Baton Pass in high-tier OU. Setting up spikes is done better by many Deoxys-S. I even daresay Frolass is better.
Quick passing. And I'm sure his LO set can be used viable in higher tiers. Even tho he's outclassed by deoxys He can OHKO it which can help sometimes
 
I think it's been shown several times throughout the thread by haunter himself that this time is an exception, and that we're willing to do a complex ban, so please stop bringing it up in your arguments. We may not like to do them as a community, but we have agreed to do so this one time.

Also, what we're essentially trying to do here is indeed kill the concept of a defensive and full chain. I think we've reached the conclusion that these chains are pretty freaking broken, and that we need to make them easier to handle.
I didn't believe that banning Scolipede would make enough of a difference, so I requested a friend to play a game against me using baton pass without ninjask. I posted this replay on page 85, and as you can see, the absence of scolipede made no difference in the outcome of the match whatsoever.
I realize that this is just one match, bu consider that! There is an instance in which your solution did absolutely nothing for us, and that is clearly unacceptable. We're looking to nerf baton pass 100% of the time somehow, in every scenario, and banning scolipede won't really work

Not to mention that scolipede is a perfectly fine pokemon outside of full baton pass.
This has been said quite a few times throughout the forum, so if you've been contributing to this forum "for the greater good of the metagame" then you should probably have been paying attention to this:
Scolipede isn't the problem, scolipede in a team of 5 other users of baton pass is.
We need to think of how to fix scolipede in a team of 5 other users of baton pass, not scolipede in general.
I think it's been shown over the course of this entire thread that no decision has been made. Haunter himself said he preferred a complex ban in this case; he did not say that is the final decision, and he has encouraged discussion for other, perhaps more effective solutions. (His own opinion is also subject to change.)

Also, it was blatantly stated we merely want to rebalance Baton Pass, not kill it or make it unviable. And we've reached absolutely no conclusion; that's why this thread is still open.

Give up comparing Ninjask and Scolipede, and quit pretending Ninjask replaces Scolipede. Remove your bias from one replay.

Scolipede in a team of 5 other users of Baton Pass is broken because of Scolipede. Remove Scolipede, and suddenly those 5 Baton Passers aren't broken or uncompetitive; they're a threat, but more manageable to deal with. That's the goal of this thread: come up with a rebalance to Baton Pass that simply makes the strategy more manageable.


Wow, this thread has completely gone to hell.... does anybody know how I can switch notifications coming from this off?

Oh and banning Scolipede is a stupid idea Over Zealous and yes people will replace it with Ninjask. Please God don't bother replying to this as you won't get me to engage in pointless arguments with you.
Trust me, it's hardly worth replying to a wall, as providing you deep analysis and hard facts won't move or sway you. Simply, Ninjask can't fulfill Scolipede's bulky, reliable, Uber-like support role. I'm really, really sorry you fail to see this.
 
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Quick passing. And I'm sure his LO set can be used viable in higher tiers. Even tho he's outclassed by deoxys He can OHKO it which can help sometimes
Quick Passing requires baton pass. And anyway quick passing is not that good a strategy anyway. Taking a hit while coming in is risky and dangerous
 
Uh huh, so you have abused BP to get to the top of the ladder? Tell me, what is your Showdown username? Oh and Rank 1700 is enough when you consider that most of the too players are up there, and if they're getting beaten by BP, it kinda sorta proves the point (Luck or no luck, BP is broken)
If bp cant manage the top of the ladder it means to me its not a threat, and i know people arent gonna get to rank 1900 with 3 or 4 baton passers. They wont even get close the top ladder, then its absolutely not too op and will only be used in low ranked games...
 
If you REALLY want (and I mean REAAAAALLLY want) Ninjask does learn Harden lol, though it is admittedly much worse than Scolipede, but can do its job with about 80% of Scolipede's reliability.
 

Dread Arceus

total cockhead
I seem to be under the impression a Baton Pass clause means Scolipede + Espeon + Sylveon/Smeargle + 3 other non-supportive, non-synergistic Pokemon. In short, the chain archetype is killed, and it's reduced to a half-Pass team at best. Smogon wishes to make the archetype more managable, not kill it, unless absolutely necessary.

Removing auto-pilot: removing Scolipede.



Baton Pass teams switch to Ninjask, which is restricted to a suicide lead role, which can't switch in on account of its lack of bulk and 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, which fails to support the chain beyond a Speed Boost or two, and cannot boost Def, and is overall more susceptible to priority, and can be more easily Taunted on account of its usually required Focus Sash. There's a reason Ninjask didn't lead Baton Pass to dominate the ladders, but Scolipede did.

In other words, stop comparing Ninjask to Scolipede, which is laughably pointless and depressing.

And that's the problem, you didn't write anything useful to this thread, just tried to reduce my argument to absurdity with an inferior replacement to Scolipede. Get this through your head: nothing can replace Scolipede and do its job. Nothing can replace Scolipede and do its job more optimally and effectively. Scolipede provides an Uber-like support for Baton Pass.

I wrote much more than 12 paragraphs; I've engaged in this thread for the greater good of the metagame. You've provided nothing besides "Ninjask can replace ScolipedeLOL!" when clearly it is inferior and outclassed.
So let's see, by your solution, BP remains the dominating playstyle (because I'm pretty sure everybody but you agrees that Scolipede in and of itself is not broken). Additionally, a nerf on Scolipede does nothing for slower playstyles, especially stall. Ninjask and Scolipede perform the exact same against stall, as does Combusken and Whirlipede. It's like you're comparing Extremekiller Arceus to Mega Kangaskhan - yes, Arceus is more dangerous, but that doesn't make Mega Kangaskhan any less broken. Yes, limiting number of Passers to 3 weakens the playstyle considerably and make it technically not a "full chain", but it ends up becoming a balance-like playstyle, in which you have the 3 BPers that can start a chain, and the other 3 that support, bring down the chain's counters, and receive boosts from the chain if deemed necessary. You mentioned Swift Swim + Drizzle ban, which does the exact same thing as 3 BP limit-it didn't ruin Rain, but it changed how it was played and made it much less broken. And finally, lol at Scolipede ban removing auto-pilot, that's just flat-out not true.
 
If bp cant manage the top of the ladder it means to me its not a threat, and i know people arent gonna get to rank 1900 with 3 or 4 baton passers. They wont even get close the top ladder, then its absolutely not too op and will only be used in low ranked games...
Oh all right then, the lower ranked players at 1500 or so will suffer because of it. That's like saying that MKanga can be unbanned because the higher ladder adapted to it. And you never said what your showdown username is, so I'd hate to be "that guy" but you're talking out of your ass. And it's been proved that BP can work with 3-4 members, it's the Scollipede/Espeon core that is ruining the meta, NOT how many members there are. And you seem to forget that 3-4 Batonpassers can pass to something like M-Pinsir or MzardX and wreck everything. You only need Scollipede to stack ID/SD and Speed Boosts and Espeon to bounce back Taunt and such in order to sweep (and don't forget Stored Power). It's been explained before.
 
Oh all right then, the lower ranked players at 1500 or so will suffer because of it. That's like saying that MKanga can be unbanned because the higher ladder adapted to it. And you never said what your showdown username is, so I'd hate to be "that guy" but you're talking out of your ass. And it's been proved that BP can work with 3-4 members, it's the Scollipede/Espeon core that is ruining the meta, NOT how many members there are. And you seem to forget that 3-4 Batonpassers can pass to something like M-Pinsir or MzardX and wreck everything. You only need Scollipede to stack ID/SD and Speed Boosts and Espeon to bounce back Taunt and such in order to sweep (and don't forget Stored Power). It's been explained before.
Now that what u say at the end, is the sefinition of semi passing. And i am talking about full bp chains being impossible so were talking of different things now. And also what u said about the 1500 ranked players suffering bp, thats not gonna happen as it will be easily countered and a very unpopular playstyle. So ur arguing is of irrelevant things. If u wanna know my alt, tell me urs and i can prove my alt by chatting u in showdown.
 
What about implementing the ban of Magic Bounce + Stored Power, possibly along a Baton Pass limit of 3 or 4 Pokemon? That way Baton Pass players would have to choose whether they want the Taunt blocking power of Magic Bounce or the ability to abuse Stored Power, but couldn't have both. That would make using Baton Pass a little more varied and more requiring of thinking of strategy when building a Baton Pass team. Along with that ban, possibly banning Speed Boost + Substitute + Protect, so as to allow only Scoliopede to only have either Substitute OR Protect, so that way it can't just continuously acquire speed boosts until the opponent switches or ragequits or something. These bans would nerf the archetype, but wouldn't kill it completely, and it would make using it more strategical because the users would actually have to choose which tools they can use, versus just having all of the best ones.
 
So let's see, by your solution, BP remains the dominating playstyle (because I'm pretty sure everybody but you agrees that Scolipede in and of itself is not broken). Additionally, a nerf on Scolipede does nothing for slower playstyles, especially stall. Ninjask and Scolipede perform the exact same against stall, as does Combusken and Whirlipede. It's like you're comparing Extremekiller Arceus to Mega Kangaskhan - yes, Arceus is more dangerous, but that doesn't make Mega Kangaskhan any less broken. Yes, limiting number of Passers to 3 weakens the playstyle considerably and make it technically not a "full chain", but it ends up becoming a balance-like playstyle, in which you have the 3 BPers that can start a chain, and the other 3 that support, bring down the chain's counters, and receive boosts from the chain if deemed necessary. You mentioned Swift Swim + Drizzle ban, which does the exact same thing as 3 BP limit-it didn't ruin Rain, but it changed how it was played and made it much less broken. And finally, lol at Scolipede ban removing auto-pilot, that's just flat-out not true.
Oh, I happen to agree Scolipede, in of itself, isn't broken either. It's the people who make ignorant presumptions, instead of actually reading my arguments, that think I find Scolipede broken by itself. He isn't broken; his Uber-like support for the chain makes the playstyle overcentralizing. Unlike any other Pokemon, he can't be stopped from doing what he wants to do, and reliably does so two or more times over the course of a match.

It's already been explained Ninjask and Scolipede do not perform the exact same, not even against Stall. Ninjask cannot boost Def, and cannot re-establish a chain nor switch in by existence of Stealth Rocks, passive damage, or even the weakest attack. Boosting Def does matter against Stall, by the way, as it aids in Stored Power's base power.

Nevertheless, Stall still faces the same primary problems even against 3 users: Scolipede, Espeon, Sylveon/Smeargle. Vaporeon is unneeded against Stall, as Scolipede boosts the Def effortlessly. Mr Mime isn't necessary; he can Substitute and perhaps Calm Mind, nothing Espeon or Sylveon can't do. With auto speed initiative granted by Scolipede, the entire team avoids status, Trick, etc with Substitute. Because Scolipede will max Speed and Def with no effort, Stall is reduced to Special attacks, and after an easy Calm Mind or two, Stored Power outpaces everything and has the raw power to obliterate even Quagsire.

Without Scolipede, Baton Pass is more manageable against Stall, having to spend valuable turns boosting Speed via Agility, Def separately, and more susceptible to Taunt, phasing, just by sheer risk of frequent switches.

Limiting the number of Passers to 3 doesn't just "weaken" the playstyle; it kills it entirely. It doesn't just "technically" remove full chain/defensive chain, it kills it entirely. A Baton Pass clause of 3 doesn't morph the playstyle into Balanced. (And why should Smogon turn Baton Pass into Balanced? Balanced is Balanced, Baton Pass is Baton Pass.) The 3 other Pokemon are entirely non-supportive and non-synergistic with your Baton Pass core. It's literally filler. Switching to one of your non-Baton Pass users "to counter" means you've ended your own chain, self-defeated your own playstyle.

While a core of Scolipede, Espeon, and Sylveon/Smeargle can be effective, that's all it is, a core. The Baton Pass archetype will be dead, and Scolipede's auto x3 Speed and x2 Def will remain, the main problem.

Do we want to kill the archetype unnecessarily, or ban the actual problem that has led to its ladder dominance and overcentralization of the meta? "But Scolipede isn't the only problem!" And what is, among 1 of 2 of Baton Pass' new tools? Scolipede is unquestionably the root problem.

Without Scolipede, Baton Pass is much more manageable for the metagame as a whole, without actually killing the entire archetype.
 
Why don't we simply limit BP chained based on how long the chain goes on for? With 2-3 having little to no change from what it is now, to 5 chains having the harshest restrictions (where we could apply Scolipede and Espeon effective bans).
 
I don't see bp scolipede as the main problem cause a baton pass team can function without scolipede

I see the team as a whole the main problem (the team working together), not just one pokemon.

I admit some pokemon in the team are a lot more effective than others, but the others still make an effective team.

I think we should limit baton pass uses (like TheTMTrainerEffect suggested) or a simpler option have only, say 2 pokemon allowed to have the move per team.
 
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