Metagame NP: RU Stage -1: Message to Oglemi, Nails, and Honko (VENOMOTH STOLEN FROM US))

[starcrusher]

it's interesting how qwilfish is being slept on, given how good hazard spam is in the current meta.

definitely .. also considering knock off has discouraged psychics and not everything carries eq. it's a good utility and intimidate is always nice.

 

[Punchshroom]

So I've been dicking around with Swellow cores, since Swellow is an absolute boss, and have come up with an interesting partnership.

Swellow @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Guts
EVS: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Quick Attack / Pursuit

Clawitzer @ Expert Belt / Life Orb
Trait: Mega Launcher
EVS: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Water Pulse
- Dark Pulse
- Aura Sphere
- U-turn

Quick, think of any RU Pokemon that can switch into Swellow without risking a 2HKO? Bet you've got a good amount of Pokemon ready, like Rhyperior, Doublade, Registeel, Gligar, Cresselia? Clawitzer promptly demolishes almost all Swellow switch-ins, staring them down with its powerful attacks with great coverage as Swellow U-turns away from them, while Clawitzer itself is not easy to wall either. I'm having a bit of conflict regarding Clawitzer's choice of item and nature, since Clawitzer favors longevity and power. However, the really awesome thing about Clawitzer aside from threatening Swellow's checks / counters, is that it knows U-turn as well, meaning I can keep the momentum going for Clawitzer too, who lures in Grass-types for Swellow to scare out. A fast sweeper and a holepuncher both having U-turn? Oh shit.
That said, the core is an obvious weakness to Electric attacks, and Clawitzer can fail to defeat some of the bothersome Water-types of the tier, such as Alomomola and LO Kabutops. A Grass-type such as Virizion or Shaymin rounds out this core perfectly for those reasons.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

Clawitzer @ Expert Belt / Life Orb
Trait: Mega Launcher
EVS: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
Rash / Mild Nature (?)
- Water Pulse
- Dark Pulse
- Aura Sphere
- U-turn

I'm having a bit of conflict regarding Clawitzer's choice of item and nature, since Clawitzer favors longevity and power, and the hindering nature can come to bite it back in the ass as Clawitzer is often on the receiving end of both spectrum of attacks.

Ebelt can feign a choice set whilst still having good power in general. It's a decent enough option.
However with EVs and nature... Just run Modest, as you do not run U-turn for damage but for momentum (and scouting to a certain degree). Base 73 attack makes just about no difference.

 

[Punchshroom]

Ebelt can feign a choice set whilst still having good power in general. It's a decent enough option.
However with EVs and nature... Just run Modest, as you do not run U-turn for damage but for momentum (and scouting to a certain degree). Base 73 attack makes just about no difference.

You could be right about that, I just felt the extra damage against Shaymin somehow mattered, though a difference in 20 points of Attack doesn't really change any notable KOes outside of maybe -Def Shiftry :P I'll make that change.

 

[Olly]

definitely .. also considering knock off has discouraged psychics and not everything carries eq. it's a good utility and intimidate is always nice.

I am really not seeing this. I imagine all of the following will end up in RU (unless they move up to UU): Bronzong, Cresselia, Delphox, Gallade, Meloetta, Meowstic, Reuniculus, Slowking. Most the Knock Offs in RU are pretty weak, things like Cresselia laugh off the majority of the Knock Offs in the tier. If anything the psychic type is the most ubiquitous in the tier.

In general psychic types are pretty good in this tier because they have been relegated to this tier due to the powerful Knock Offs in higher tiers. That's why RU was left with Azelf, Bronzong, Cresselia, Reuniculus.

 

[DopestDope]

I've been playing around with AV Rapid Spinners and I've found Hitmontop to be pretty good. I'll post my set later once I get to a computer

 

[Olly]

I know some people will laugh it off as useless. But this is pretty much a stop to the Tornadus + Dugtrio combo.

Rotom-S @ Leftovers
Calm Nature
252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Thunderbolt
Air Slash / Hidden Power Ice
Will-o-Wisp
Pain Split

I think people often laugh off Rotom-S as garbage due to its ability and special move, but Electric/Flying is awesome typing. Can go both physically or specially defensive, and has good stats for RU. This also do a job vs things like Escavalier, Moltres, Shaymin, Yanmega.

 

[starcrusher]

I am really not seeing this. I imagine all of the following will end up in RU (unless they move up to UU): Bronzong, Cresselia, Delphox, Gallade, Meloetta, Meowstic, Reuniculus, Slowking. Most the Knock Offs in RU are pretty weak, things like Cresselia laugh off the majority of the Knock Offs in the tier. If anything the psychic type is the most ubiquitous in the tier.

In general psychic types are pretty good in this tier because they have been relegated to this tier due to the powerful Knock Offs in higher tiers. That's why RU was left with Azelf, Bronzong, Cresselia, Reuniculus.

true, true. there are some really solid ones running around. i still don't see psychic as being the dominant offensive force in the tier though. many of those pokes are mostly used more defensively or in a utility role (not to diminish their overall impact, and obiously cm sets are trouble, scarf/specs delphox is a weapon, etc). azelf is gone for now, cress and reuni may end up moving up, we'll see (not going to openly speculate on future tiering). the fact that escavalier is so present hurts too. having said that, i see your point. there are still plenty of good psychics in ru!

 

[termi]

I've been playing around with AV Rapid Spinners and I've found Hitmontop to be pretty good. I'll post my set later once I get to a computer

Refrain from doing so, AV Hitmontop has nothing going for it actually. Not only does Hitmontop not have any form of recovery whatsoever (no Drain Punch), but it's also too weak to really run it efficiently. On top of that, by using AV you're sacrificing Foresight (guaranteed spin and one of the few reasons to use Hitmontop at all) and Toxic (which is his only means of wearing Pokemon down that can take anything he throws at them - Hitmontop doesn't hit that hard so there's plenty of things that wall it to hell and back). Even if it works kind of decently for you, you're still passing up too much to really consider it at all.

This post of Molk sums up what you do want to slap an Assault Vest on and what not

Because Assault Vest was brought up yet again (although AV gogoat isn't really as bad as other really terrible av mons i've seen like Dragalge and Toxicroak and Exeggutor). I'm finally gonna post something i've wanted to post for a long time: Assault Vest is not a good item to simply slap on random Pokemon.

I mean, of course Assault Vest looks pretty great on paper, and on the right Pokemon it can really be a great option because of the extra SpD boost, but that's the important part: the right pokemon. I've seen Assault Vest slapped onto a very wide variety of Pokemon that simply don't work well with it, and the thing i ask is, why?????? So anyways, i'm going to go through a list on what Pokemon make bad AV users, so you don't make the mistake of using AV on a pokemon it's not well suited for.

Types of Pokemon that Assault Vest should not be used on:

1) Frail Pokemon.

I know that an increase of bulk on a frailer Pokemon might seem good to new players, but most of the time it's simply not worth it, trust me. Usually a frail Pokemon with Assault Vest might be able to take some weaker neutral hits, but Pokemon that are strong enough can still easily break through them, and besides, there are better options for items on glass cannons anyway, such as Choice items and ESPECIALLY Life Orb.

Examples of Pokemon i've seen do this: Toxicroak, Zoroark, Cinccino, Ambipom,exploud, Durant, SHARPEDO (i wish i was joking).

these go under pokemon that might want to set up (gatr)

2) Pokemon with important support moves.

Once again, an extra increase in bulk on a bulky Pokemon might sound nice, but way too often do i see Assault Vest being used on Pokemon that have good support moves, and because of Assault Vest's drawback, these pokemon can't use these important moves anymore, most often making the boost from Assault Vest not worth it. The same thing goes for Pokemon with moves such as recover, the added durability really isn't worth it if you're sacrificing your ability to regain hp, is it? (there are exceptions to this, such as Slowking being a solid AV user despite sacrificing its ability to use slack off because of regenerator but most of the time this is a good rule of thumb).

Examples of Pokemon that i've seen do this: Amoonguss (lol sarificing spore with those offensive stats). Rhyperior, Bronzong, Dragalge, Pangoro, Cofagrigus, Reuniclus, Venomoth, Milotic, Drapion, Alomomola.

3) Pokemon that might want to use boosting moves

Assault Vest might not seem quite as obviously bad on some of these Pokemon, but trust me, a lot of the time Pokemon with boosting moves would most rather be boosting their stats to set up a sweep instead of being able to take some hits with Assault Vest, all in all there are just better things these Pokemon could be doing.

Examples of Pokemon i've seen do this: Feraligatr, Samurott, Gallade (not "terrible" per se cause it has good bulk and drain punch, but i'd still much rather use SD or Bulk Up most of the time, Drapion, Venomoth, Slurpuff.

As for Pokemon that make good Assault Vest users, Pokemon with good bulk, high offenses, and the ability to run 4 attacking moves while still being fully effective (that means not missing utility moves, looking at you rhyperior) are excellent Assault Vest users, Escavalier being a prime example.

Extra bonuses that can make a good assault vest user great include: Regenerator (dont do this if the pokemon is named amoonguss or alomomola), Draining Moves, Intimidate, Knock Off, Dragon Tail or Circle Throw, So look into Pokemon like that when looking for a good Assault Vest user (assuming they don't fit into one of the categories listed above).

I got ninja'd but might as well post anyway

 

[Holy Dom]

So I've been dicking around with Swellow cores, since Swellow is an absolute boss, and have come up with an interesting partnership.

Swellow @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Guts
EVS: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Quick Attack / Pursuit

Clawitzer @ Expert Belt / Life Orb
Trait: Mega Launcher
EVS: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Water Pulse
- Dark Pulse
- Aura Sphere
- U-turn

Quick, think of any RU Pokemon that can switch into Swellow without risking a 2HKO? Bet you've got a good amount of Pokemon ready, like Rhyperior, Doublade, Registeel, Gligar, Cresselia? Clawitzer promptly demolishes almost all Swellow switch-ins, staring them down with its powerful attacks with great coverage as Swellow U-turns away from them, while Clawitzer itself is not easy to wall either. I'm having a bit of conflict regarding Clawitzer's choice of item and nature, since Clawitzer favors longevity and power. However, the really awesome thing about Clawitzer aside from threatening Swellow's checks / counters, is that it knows U-turn as well, meaning I can keep the momentum going for Clawitzer too, who lures in Grass-types for Swellow to scare out. A fast sweeper and a holepuncher both having U-turn? Oh shit.
That said, the core is an obvious weakness to Electric attacks, and Clawitzer can fail to defeat some of the bothersome Water-types of the tier, such as Alomomola and LO Kabutops. A Grass-type such as Virizion or Shaymin rounds out this core perfectly for those reasons.

I think running Speed on Clawitzer help bait out Grass types for Swellow to kill isn't very effective.

You can already outspeed all of the mons that stop Swellow without needing investment, and Speed doesn't help Clawitzer with the most common or semi-viable grass types in the tier.

Clawitzer literally cannot outspeed absolute min speed Virizion unless it runs a Scarf, and needs Timid Nature to outspeed neutral Shaymin that has 4 Speed EVs (which is too risky to try to U-Turn on since Life Orb is the most common set.) And Rotom-Mow can be outsped, but both of its STABs are super effective and it's not rare for them to be Scarfed or offensive. And there's Lilligant, Whimsicott, and I guess Jumpluff to add to that too.

And you already outspeed Amoonguss and Tangrowth without investment. Plus rare things like Cacturne and Vileplume.

The Speed EVs generally only benefit to outspeed Gogoat, Bulky Ludicolo, Bulky Shiftry, Meganium, Abomasnow on the turn of Mega EVO (which Swellow doesn't want to be sent in on). All of which are rare in RU, excluding Obama.

I think maybe 8 EVs for a safe U-Turn on nonspeed invested Abomasnow but, since you yourself said Clawitzer prefers longevity, I think running mainly HP investment over Speed is more beneficial if you're just trying to lure Grass types. Especially if you're running Modest over Timid. Or tailor your Speed for specific things rather than going Max.

 

[aVocado]

Hitmontop is better ran as Leftovers Intimidate 252/252+ Def, as it counters some specific Pokemon like Sharpedo, Toxicroak, and even Cobalion, among others. The utility Intimidate gives and the bulk Hitmontop has with that is too good to pass up. I've used a set of Rapid Spin/CC/EQ/Toxic, Foresight, or Mach Punch and it's done very well for me. I know, EQ is weird to have, but the Pokemon I mentioned are better hit by EQ followed by CC in Cobalion's case, or just two EQs in Toxicroak's case, to prevent losing bulk thanks to CC.

 

[EonX]

So I've been dicking around with Swellow cores, since Swellow is an absolute boss, and have come up with an interesting partnership.

Swellow @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Guts
EVS: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Quick Attack / Pursuit

Clawitzer @ Expert Belt / Life Orb
Trait: Mega Launcher
EVS: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Water Pulse
- Dark Pulse
- Aura Sphere
- U-turn

Quick, think of any RU Pokemon that can switch into Swellow without risking a 2HKO? Bet you've got a good amount of Pokemon ready, like Rhyperior, Doublade, Registeel, Gligar, Cresselia? Clawitzer promptly demolishes almost all Swellow switch-ins, staring them down with its powerful attacks with great coverage as Swellow U-turns away from them, while Clawitzer itself is not easy to wall either. I'm having a bit of conflict regarding Clawitzer's choice of item and nature, since Clawitzer favors longevity and power. However, the really awesome thing about Clawitzer aside from threatening Swellow's checks / counters, is that it knows U-turn as well, meaning I can keep the momentum going for Clawitzer too, who lures in Grass-types for Swellow to scare out. A fast sweeper and a holepuncher both having U-turn? Oh shit.
That said, the core is an obvious weakness to Electric attacks, and Clawitzer can fail to defeat some of the bothersome Water-types of the tier, such as Alomomola and LO Kabutops. A Grass-type such as Virizion or Shaymin rounds out this core perfectly for those reasons.

Lum SD Virizion can fairly easily fill out this core as it makes for a solid secondary response for Registeel, Rhyperior, and Gligar should Clawitzer be down. It also benefits from having Cress and Doublade removed, thus giving you a second win-con if Clawitzer can't get rid of Rhyperior, Registeel, or Gligar for Swellow before going down. I would also go for more of a bulky spread on Clawitzer considering the slower U-turn makes it easier for Swellow and / or Virizion to get in and the extra bulk can let Clawitzer hang around longer.

 

[Molk]

I prefer scarf Clawitzer because it can destroy threats like Pyroar and Raikou, Raikou with 2 hits, WP does wonders.

Scarf Clawitzer doesn't even outspeed Timid Raikou.... Clawitzer only has base 59 Speed, which reaches less than 360 Speed under max investment withg Choice Scarf's multiplication, Raikou reaches 361 Speed, and therefore needs a scarfed based 61 Speed Pokemon to outspeed it. That's definitely too slow to make an effective scarf user imo.

Anyways, its April 30th as of right now, which means that because of the one month beta tier shifts that there will be some tier changes happening once stats are out. So my question is: is there anything in particular that you think will either move up to UU or drop to RU by usage next month? Looking at last month's stats, it seems the most likely drop by far is Jolteon (good fit for RU imo), followed by Krookodile (strong Knock Off+Moxie makes this a potential threat imo.). As for Pokemon that could move up.... i'm not too sure, but i've heard on irc that Raikou is a possible promotion.

 

[Evilfaic]

Scarf Clawitzer doesn't even outspeed Timid Raikou.... Clawitzer only has base 59 Speed, which reaches less than 360 Speed under max investment withg Choice Scarf's multiplication, Raikou reaches 361 Speed, and therefore needs a scarfed based 61 Speed Pokemon to outspeed it. That's definitely too slow to make an effective scarf user imo.

Anyways, its April 30th as of right now, which means that because of the one month beta tier shifts that there will be some tier changes happening once stats are out. So my question is: is there anything in particular that you think will either move up to UU or drop to RU by usage next month? Looking at last month's stats, it seems the most likely drop by far is Jolteon (good fit for RU imo), followed by Krookodile (strong Knock Off+Moxie makes this a potential threat imo.). As for Pokemon that could move up.... i'm not too sure, but i've heard on irc that Raikou is a possible promotion.

I can definitely see Jolteon dropping, as it's basically Raikou with less bulk and more Speed.
I haven't seen much of Krook, but it is a very underrated Physical threat in UU, and STAB Knock Off is amazing. Don't think he'll be dropping.
One thing I can see being promoted is Shaymin. Powerful, spammable STAB in Seed Flare, good coverage movepool with Air Slash/Dazzling Gleam/Earth Power, and great recovery with Synthesis, SubSeed, and Rest + Natural Cure.
Other controversial things are Cresselia and Exploud, which are both great, and I can see both moving up in the world.

 

[Golemman]

A trade between Raikou and Jolteon makes perfect sense. I have always seen Raikou as the better electric type, because of his higher power, coverage, and existing bulk.

Moxie Krook will own all the poisons/steels/ghosts/psychics please come down to RU!

 

[Kevun]

Right now, RU is kind of in a delicate balance. What will move up and down is very contigent on other promotions/demotions. One pokemon who gets demoted from UU can cause another to be promoted or prevent something from being promoted. For example, if something like Krookodile comes down to RU, the chances of Reuniclus and Cresselia being banned will simultaneously decrease. This affect can have multiple chain effects, for example if Krookodile gets moved down to RU, then Shaymin usage might significantly increase, which will increase its changes of it being banned. Consequently, this change might increase the viability of Raikou, which then might cause it in turn to get banned, and also increase the viability or Rhyperior, which might give sweepers more reason to run HP Ice over Grass, which might lower the viability of Gligar, and etc. (Not saying this might happen, but just giving a hypothetical example). The banning of one pokemon can have a big snowballing affect, greatly distorting the RU metagame we know right now. One ban can greatly disturb the delicate balance we have now, so I believe bannings will be like an "all or nothing" scenario, where either very little or nothing gets moved up, or almost all of the "OP" stuff gets moved up.

Of course, I might be completely wrong and the the ripple effect might be much smaller than I had described and anticipated. :P

 

[tennisace]

I can definitely see Jolteon dropping, as it's basically Raikou with less bulk and more Speed.
I haven't seen much of Krook, but it is a very underrated Physical threat, and STAB Knock Off is amazing. Not sure if it will be promo'd, but I wouldn't mind it going.
One thing I can see being promoted is Shaymin. Powerful, spammable STAB in Seed Flare, good coverage movepool with Air Slash/Dazzling Gleam/Earth Power, and great recovery with Synthesis, SubSeed, and Rest + Natural Cure.
Yet another thing that could go up is Mega Blastoise. It's arguably the best Spinner in the tier, it gets pretty good coverage, it has a great Ability, and it has so much raw power with STAB + Mega Launcher Water Pulse.
Other controversial things are Cresselia and Exploud, which are both great, and I can see both moving up in the world.

When was the last time you saw a Mega Blastoise in RU, out of curiosity?

 

[Kevun]

When was the last time you saw a Mega Blastoise in RU, out of curiosity?

I think he means that it might move up from UU, not RU. However, this still has no relevance to this topic.

 

[Evilfaic]

When was the last time you saw a Mega Blastoise in RU, out of curiosity?

Oops, I derped. Sorry about that.

 

[EonX]

Lol it doesn't? Still ruins other major threats though.

Problem is that Raikou is a serious threat and destroys it.

Anyway, I think the biggest potential drops are Jolteon and Krookodile. Both of these I think would make Virizion the premier Grass-type in the tier due to resisting Krook's STAB combination (and Stone Edge) while having the special bulk to take anything Jolteon has to offer, even HP Ice. To add to this, it won't be wrecked by Signal Beam like other Grass-types (looking at you Shaymin) while also benefitting from Krook's Knock Off via Justified (hi Shaymin) Not sure about other drops, but if these two were to come down (and Raikou leave) then I can definitely see Virizion rising up from what seems to be obscurity (for some stupid reason, cuz it's cool right now imo)

 

[DopestDope]

If Krookodile moves down, I don't think Cress will be the big wall bitch that it is now. jk, not even adamant scarf is able to 2hko it. Life Orb or Choice Band is needed to guarentee a 2hko (adamant lo, jolly CB). I could see Krookodile dealing with other, less bulky Psychics, namely Slowking, Reuniclus, Delphox, and Meowstic (252/0 Meowstic is OHKO'd after reflect by adamant banded Krook, 2hko'd by other sets). That being said, Cresselia is still domineering in this tier. It fits pretty much any playstyle due to it's insane movepool and has unbelievable tank.

 

[DTC]

i don't get what's so good about cresselia. yea it's super fucking bulky and hard to 2hko but... so what? because cresselia is almost non threatening it's easy to take advantage of it. all it really 'threatens' to do is either spread status or take a ton of turns to boost with calm mind before it can actually do anything. personally i think reuniclus is much better as a bulky clam mind user because of magic guard as well as the fact that it can do damage before getting a bunch of boosts.

like just because something is super bulky doesn't mean it's the end of the world. it's not very hard to beat if you apply pressure to it and there are a lot of good pokemon that can apply pressure such as cm raikou, drapion, and escavalier. cresselia is nowhere near as threatening as it was last gen.

 

[MrCookiepants]

Can we talk about Endure+Weakness Policy Yanmega? If you're out of priority users, you're probably going to get swept. Few things resist its coverage.

 

[Ranger Mike]

It fits pretty much any playstyle due to it's insane movepool and has unbelievable tank.

Cress is pretty bad for hyper offensive teams, also regarding cresselia I completly agree with DTC and will add that being weak to the best pokemon in the tier being the armored bug himself escavelier along with the ever so common knock off so bottom line now that escavelier has been upgraded cress is no longer super duper op like last gen (btw if krookodile does come down we wont suspect it ok :) )

 

[Tribute]

Why run speed on clauncher, whats he going to outspeed?