XY UU Viability Ranking Thread

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or because mew can cripple/wall the entire fucking metagame barring megadoom and hydrei (and even then hydrei hates getting its item knocked off on the switch).

anyways nido should be moved down to A rank. while it does 2hko a good portion of the tier if not outright ohko'ing, it has a fair few of mons that can counter it fairly easily, like umbreon (don't give me that bullshit argument about focus blast because it has terrible accuracy which lets it wish back up and fb is pretty much pp stalled anyway), mew, cresselia, bronzong(?). it's also incredibly easy to check offensively as it has mediocre bulk, bad defensive typing, and can be outsped by a fair portion of the tier, or some mons like mega blastoise or hippo can tank a hit and ohko back. i'm not sure if queen should be moved down as well though since nidoqueen has solid bulk.

i don't have enough experience with mega absol to give a solid ranking on it, but with what qwilphish has said, and the fact that absol has terrible bulk, i'd go for either A- or even B+ rank.
 
I think they are both fine in A rank. Nidoking is wonderful wall breaker and can function on almost every offensive team as it can dump on the face of florges and can also run focus blast to hit umbreon. It can learn basically every coverage move you could ever want so you can really customize it to fit your team. Are you fucked by mega blastoise? Run thunderbolt. Is hippowdon and shit a problem? Ice beam works fine. Fire blast works but I don't feel like coming up with a scenario.

Absol IMO is less of a wallvreaker and more of a sweeper/cleaner. SD can really murder teams with knock off and coverage such as mega horn (or play rough but then you can't have knock off) magic bounce is wonderful for bothering stall as well as reflecting thunder wave and will-o-wisp and stuff.

But yeah A is good for both.
 
I think Nidoking should be A ranked simply because it only has 2 sets, only 1 being effective. The most popular set would most likely be the Life Orb All-out attacking set, the second being Scarf (Which has some merits).

Nidoking is one of the best Special Attackers in the game due to Sheer Force + LO + Coverage. It can run moves such as Earth Power, Sludge Wave, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Fire Blast. It gets ridiculous coverage. Not many Pokes can switch in. In addition to this, it has a good Attacking Stat, and moves such as Poison Jab, Bulldoze, Elemental Punches, Superpower, and Sucker Punch. This allows Nidoking to run mixed sets to take down Florges + Aggron cores, etc etc.

I disagree with Bouff in the sense that it has mediocre bulk and typing. In fact, I think it has one of the better balance between offensive and defensive typings. It's typing allows it to be immune to Toxic and Thunder Waves. It has an immunity to Electric Types (which is pretty awesome tbh), and it's poison typing allows it to switch in on Florges and specially defensive Roserade. The fact that it resists Fighting and Bug attacks is also a plus. It shouldn't be the first Poke to switch in, but if need be, it can take a hit.

The worst thing about Nidoking is the fact that it cannot boost any of its stats. This coupled with mediocre speed makes Nidoking less of an offensive threat. It is able to beat many walls in the game (Think: Suicine, Slowbro, Florges, sometimes Umbreon if Focus Blast hits), but it can only wall break. It is not able to switch in on offensive mons unless it is choice locked in a favorable move, such as Mienshao's HJK. It cannot run an effective SR set because imo, if you want an offensive hazard lead, use Aero/Azelf, and if you want a defensive bulky lead, use Nidoqueen. It cannot boost its high SpA or Attack to wallbreak even further, making it easier to wall. This is different from something like SD Heracross, which can actually beat some of its counters setting up. Also, it lacks moves such as Rock Polish that made Pokes land Lando-I so dangerous.

Because of these reasons, I feel Nidoking fits at A or A- ranking, but defiantly not higher or lower. Feel free to disagree, but I do stand by my decision.
 
UU ALL DAY yeah, true, i forgot about tox and twave. but tbh, it's still weak to common attacking types like ground, water, and psychic. i still dont think a- is good for it though due to it being one of the best special wall breakers in the tier (well except for the counters i listed lol)

i will also edit this post later with my thoughts on venomoth who should move up to a- or a.
 
Great choice to pick Nidoking for this can we please put an end to the physical Nidoking discussion now? Does physical or mainly physical Nidoking have enough utility to be used over special or mainly special Nidoking?

In the mean time I think Nidoking is a solid A rank or A+ rank. Mew isn't a counter guys if you just use Megahorn which does like 60% to 252/0 Mew given that you have a a neutral attack nature and 0 EVs. Umbreon is also a 2hko but protect might mess that up if you do not have hazards. Another lovely thing Nidoking has is absorbing Toxic Spikes on entry which is very useful to discourage them from being set up so you can be more free to use grounded Pokemon without a spinner/defogger should you not be able to fit one in on your team. Also as I'm sure you all know by now Nidoking is has fantastic sweeping chances if its either given Sticky Web or Quiver Dance both of which are very viable in the tier at the moment.
 
I don't think arguing lack of variability in sets is relevant when discussing Nidoking. The reason that Victini's versatility is relevant is because its coverage and its ability to viably hop the physical/special line allows it to break through things that it wouldn't normally otherwise. By contrast, going physical Nidoking gives little to no benefits, as there really are still no hard counters to Nidoking. In some ways, it does have 4MSS, as it really would like to run Fire Blast AND Thunderbolt AND Megahorn AND Focus Blast, but it can't. Either way, though it's significantly threatening to all teams. Because it has no direct counters but isn't fast or strong enough to be an S-ranked threat by itself, the addition of elements like QuiverPass, SmashPass, GeoPass, and just plain sticky web make it significantly more viable and threatening.

Its typing is also wonderful, and I think it's something that should be touched on more. Poison typing is defensively amazing - it's the reason that pokemon like Nidoqueen and Qwilfish are as good as they are, even with mediocre defensive stats. Although NKing isn't about to be switching into a banded HJK, it can certainly threaten out a Heracross or Mienshao if it comes in free - something that other special threats in the A tier like Shaymin, Roserade, Porygon-Z, and even Chandelure can't boast - unless they're sure they're faster, they can't come in on stuff like this. With the advent of Knock Off, Poison type pokes have the very significant ability to wall Fighting and Bug type attacks without being completely slaughtered by the everpresent Knock Off that Heracross and Mienshao carry. While Nidoking certainly doesn't appreciate having its item knocked off, it's not about to OHKO it either.

IMO the place Nidoking is in at the minute is very similar to where Hydreigon was last gen in OU. It has no hard counters, yet it isn't overpowering enough to be considered broken. At the same time, its aided by its fantastic typing which allows it to absorb electric type attacks, toxic spikes, and hold its own against the very real threats of Mienshao and Heracross, something that other special attackers can't boast. Because it's all around a reliable and potentially devastating special attacker that can both break walls and sweep offensive pokes, I'd go as far as to say that it deserves to stay in the ranks of the A+ Pokemon. Look at the other pokemon in this sub-tier - it's pretty clear that this is where Nidoking fits. Victini, Mega-Houndoom, and Heracross are all very similar to Nidoking in the way they exemplify the A+ rank - they have the potential to be devastatingly powerful and they lack true counters (one could argue that MH has hydreigon now, and Hera has gligar, but eh). Moreover, many of these pokes have the defensive ability (either inherent in typing or in ability) to switch in or come in freely on very powerful moves from Fighting and Fire type mons - switching Moxiecross into LO Shao, for example, is something that's extremely relevant to its viability. At the same time, they have minor drawbacks that require additional support from their team in order to truly wreak havoc.

On another (and probably unpopular) note, I think it's time to reevaluate the perceived dominance of Mew according to the rankings. With the induction of Hydreigon in the tier as well as the increased popularity of Megadoom, Mew's solid reign as a specially defensive wall is slowly crumbling. Moreover, two of its main annoying moves (defog and knock off) are in many cases no longer accepted as fate for many players. What I mean by this is that people (especially myself, heh) are running countermeasures to take advantage of Mew's use of these moves. For instance, Defiant Tornadus, Empoleon, and Braviary have seen a spike in interest recently in order to combat defog, and Weakness Policy Victini and Celebi (I may be the only person who uses this shit, but it really is good, I swear) take SpD mew and use it as pure set-up bait. Mew should also be dropped to A+ Rank, as it requires more team support in order to account for the current shift in the meta.

EDIT: here's an example of how mew can be used as set-up bait.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-117341789
 
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i'm not sure if mew should be a+ tbh, but honestly i could see it happening as much as i don't want it to.

but what i'd like to ask is why we're officially ranking things when retests aren't even done yet. i mean, if we "officially" ranked something, then it'd be questionable to move it back and forth in positions (i.e. megadoom moving up and then back down again).

anyways, im too lazy to edit my last post but the reason venomoth should be a- or a is obviously because of baton shit + quiver dance, making it very easy for mons such as Chandy, Queen, or Blastoise to smash teams easily. it also has a decent speed stat, letting it get off sleep powders fairly easily and then starting to set up. while it does have meh typing and bad defenses, it has great abilities in tinted lens, which can surprisingly let it sweep on its own easier then shittillion can (seriously vivi is kinda overrated), and wonder skin, which let it dodge taunts from threats like aerodactyl, lead azelf, and sableye.
 
actualy wonder skin is th better ability on venomot as it cn dodge status 50% of the time. much more useful than inte lens imo. also since i almost never end up using bug buzz i us infestation for the utility. if you can trap nd sleep a special attacker and spam qd and pas it to nido or somethig then gg basically
 
While I wouldn't mind if Nidoking probably dropped a little, I think it's fine in A+. Nidoking is the ultimate wallbreaker, in a nutshell. Its packs a punch, has great coverage, has no LO recoil, and is immune to both T-Wave and Toxic. Those are all incredible qualities for an offensive Pokemon, and make Nidoking immediately formidable when it gets in. As Kitten Milk said above, Poison is a pretty great defensive typing, and somewhat makes up for Nidoking's frailty, so it can take the odd hit or two and has some switch-in opportunities here and there. Also, on a lesser note, Nidoking is literally the best SmashPass recipent there is. Beyond that, a few of the posts above me did well at explaining my stance on Nidoking, so I'll stop there.

I personally am not swayed where Absol ends up, although I do think it is around A/A-. It has pretty nice coverage, good Speed, and overall has good power and enough to make it a good offensive threat. Being able to hit with both physical and special attacks is pretty nice, so it can threaten teams pretty well. Magic Bounce is a pretty awesome ability so it doesn't care about Will-O-Wisp or Thunder Wave at all, and it also has Swords Dance to be a nice sweeper. That said, I could see where the people wanting Absol lowered are coming from. It is frail, and from my experiences Absol is also a little weak; so it may miss out on potential KO's, and if it does, it will lose. However, it does have some nice qualities, so I don't think it should go lower than A-, but I could be swayed either way on this.
 
Mega Absol is nearly flawless. It has one of the best abilities in the game, great speed, great dual offensive stats, a massive movepool with excellent offensive coverage and neat little tricks like Will-o-Wisp and Baton Pass, STAB Piority, STAB Knock Off, and a boosting move.

But that bulk though ;_;

I think Mega Absol should be A/A-. The inability to take nearly any neutral hit whatsoever is a pretty big flaw, however this trait is shared by Mienshao, though Mienshao is generally more versatile and powerful. I also think Mega Absol is just too fast, powerful and threatening to be placed lower than A-.
 
I think Nidoking should be A+ just because it manages to halt the Toxic Spikes shenanigans on the stall teams that are retardedly common on the top of the ladder, as well as also being able to have an effect against Offense, with good resistances and solid coverage. It also pairs incredibly well with Hydreigon, leaving only Ice as a mutual weakness, which isn't too good in this meta anyways, as it doesn't offer much super effective coverage, and is never STAB.

Mega-Absol, everything about it has been said. A- might be better just because I feel like it has a hard time getting into Mega with that speed and those defenses. But there are definitely people who are more knowledgable on this 'mon than me. A isn't much of a stretch for it either tbh
 
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I think that you guys are overestimating Nidoking. When looking at A+ Rank, all of those Pokemon either have a ton of versatility (Heracross, Victini, Mienshao, Hydreigon) or run the same kind of set all the time, but are much more threatening with it (Mega Houndoom). Nidoking is a good wallbreaker. But it really doesn't stack up to the rank at all. It has one set, with slight variances. Heracross, Victini, Mienshao, Hydreigon, all of these have at least 3 distinct effective sets. Mega Houndoom may be a one-dimensional Pokemon, but it is way more threatening than Nidoking. Sure, it has hard counters, but it threatens to do more with free turns than Nidoking. If Nidoking gets a free turn and you don't have an answer, you have to sac something. If Houndoom gets a free turn and you don't have an answer, it either uses Nasty Plot and smashes through your team, or uses Flame Charge and sweeps. Nidoking has trouble coming in against offense because even powerful resisted hits will 2HKO with ease, and is outsped by most Pokemon on those teams, so after it gets that free turn and kills something, it is forced out or dies. Most defensive teams should carry a counter to it as well, such as Snorlax, Umbreon, or Mew.

This isn't to say that Nidoking is bad by any means. It's still a terrific wallbreaker, can check the Fighting-types, has somewhat unpredictable and powerful coverage, and can really disrupt and pressure teams. However, it's not A+ rank. It's definitely at least in the A ranks, though, so let's compare it with the ones that have been placed in A- and A.

ugh this post is going to be even longer

The Pokemon that we have placed in A rank are Suicune, Darmanitan, Florges, Umbreon, Forretress, and Honchkrow. These are all mostly one-dimensional Pokemon that run that one set quite effectively, like Nidoking, so it looks like a good start. While there is some variance in their sets, just like Nidoking, they mostly run the same kinds of sets. However, these Pokemon also have no real competition within their rank. While it hasn't been officially ranked yet, Nidoqueen is, in my opinion, and I believe in general consensus as well, better than Nidoking. However, it faces the same problems as Nidoking that make it a simply good, rather than top of the metagame, wallbreaker. The bulk issue is not as much of a problem for it, but overall it's the same kind of Pokemon, just slightly better, so it would be A rank, not A+. If Nidoqueen did not exist, I think that Nidoking would be A rank. However, it does, and a Pokemon should not be the same rank as a Pokemon that is directly better than it.

Therefore, Nidoking for A-. I may make a post about Absol later, but I think most of what needs to be said has been said.
 
Swamp Link said:
I think that you guys are overestimating Nidoking. When looking at A+ Rank, all of those Pokemon either have a ton of versatility (Heracross, Victini, Mienshao, Hydreigon) or run the same kind of set all the time, but are much more threatening with it (Mega Houndoom). Nidoking is a good wallbreaker. But it really doesn't stack up to the rank at all. It has one set, with slight variances. Heracross, Victini, Mienshao, Hydreigon, all of these have at least 3 distinct effective sets. Mega Houndoom may be a one-dimensional Pokemon, but it is way more threatening than Nidoking. Sure, it has hard counters, but it threatens to do more with free turns than Nidoking. If Nidoking gets a free turn and you don't have an answer, you have to sac something. If Houndoom gets a free turn and you don't have an answer, it either uses Nasty Plot and smashes through your team, or uses Flame Charge and sweeps. Nidoking has trouble coming in against offense because even powerful resisted hits will 2HKO with ease, and is outsped by most Pokemon on those teams, so after it gets that free turn and kills something, it is forced out or dies. Most defensive teams should carry a counter to it as well, such as Snorlax, Umbreon, or Mew.

This isn't to say that Nidoking is bad by any means. It's still a terrific wallbreaker, can check the Fighting-types, has somewhat unpredictable and powerful coverage, and can really disrupt and pressure teams. However, it's not A+ rank. It's definitely at least in the A ranks, though, so let's compare it with the ones that have been placed in A- and A.

ugh this post is going to be even longer

The Pokemon that we have placed in A rank are Suicune, Darmanitan, Florges, Umbreon, Forretress, and Honchkrow. These are all mostly one-dimensional Pokemon that run that one set quite effectively, like Nidoking, so it looks like a good start. While there is some variance in their sets, just like Nidoking, they mostly run the same kinds of sets. However, these Pokemon also have no real competition within their rank. While it hasn't been officially ranked yet, Nidoqueen is, in my opinion, and I believe in general consensus as well, better than Nidoking. However, it faces the same problems as Nidoking that make it a simply good, rather than top of the metagame, wallbreaker. The bulk issue is not as much of a problem for it, but overall it's the same kind of Pokemon, just slightly better, so it would be A rank, not A+. If Nidoqueen did not exist, I think that Nidoking would be A rank. However, it does, and a Pokemon should not be the same rank as a Pokemon that is directly better than it.

Therefore, Nidoking for A-. I may make a post about Absol later, but I think most of what needs to be said has been said.
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I am curious, does nidoking not secure a lower number of hits to ko a massively greater number of threats to both the duo such that nidoqueen's bulk is actually more important than nidoking's supposedly unnecessary speed and spatk that sacrifices its bulk in exchange?

Tldr: lowered power and speed worth the increase in bulk? Any vital koes that queen misses? Any situation where surviving hits is more important?

I want to know since i like nidoqueen but am turned off by the lower offensive stat distribution.

Back to topic, i believe that your answer will help in your argument of the viability tiering of nidoking and nidoqueen.
 
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midend said:
I am curious, does nidoking not secure a lower number of hits to ko a massively greater number of threats to both the duo such that nidoqueen's bulk is actually more important than nidoking's supposedly unnecessary speed and spatk that sacrifices its bulk in exchange?

Tldr: lowered power and speed worth the increase in bulk? Any vital koes that queen misses? Any situation where surviving hits is more important?

I want to know since i like nidoqueen but am turned off by the lowered offensive stat distribution.
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The power isn't lowered because Nidoking usually runs Timid, while Nidoqueen usually runs Modest.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 199-234 (49.2 - 57.9%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 200-238 (49.5 - 58.9%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Pretty much the same thing, with Nidoqueen actually being slightly stronger, but for all intents and purposes, considering that every attack is a roll anyway, they are the same strength. The only tradeoff is speed for bulk. If Nidoking runs Modest, then it is stronger, but that's not the main set anyway, and I don't know of any KOs that are gained if it does, it's just more power in general. It still wouldn't break past Mew, Umbreon, and Snorlax without a Super Effective move, though. I do know of some examples of Nidoqueen's bulk, though.

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 166-196 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 177-209 (58.2 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 304-358 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 151-178 (39.7 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 161-189 (42.3 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 276-325 (72.6 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It also comes into play in many instances when they're weakened.
 
Swamp Link said:
The power isn't lowered because Nidoking usually runs Timid, while Nidoqueen usually runs Modest.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 199-234 (49.2 - 57.9%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 200-238 (49.5 - 58.9%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Pretty much the same thing, with Nidoqueen actually being slightly stronger, but for all intents and purposes, considering that every attack is a roll anyway, they are the same strength. The only tradeoff is speed for bulk. If Nidoking runs Modest, then it is stronger, but that's not the main set anyway, and I don't know of any KOs that are gained if it does, it's just more power in general. It still wouldn't break past Mew, Umbreon, and Snorlax without a Super Effective move, though. I do know of some examples of Nidoqueen's bulk, though.

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 166-196 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 177-209 (58.2 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 304-358 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 151-178 (39.7 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 161-189 (42.3 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 276-325 (72.6 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It also comes into play in many instances when they're weakened.
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I see. Thanks for the heads up! I don't see many queen though i see a tad too many scarfking flying around the tier. Weird...
Based on your explanation, can i infer that both have their uses actually and are in the same VR of either A/A-?
 
Swamp Link said:
I think that you guys are overestimating Nidoking. When looking at A+ Rank, all of those Pokemon either have a ton of versatility (Heracross, Victini, Mienshao, Hydreigon) or run the same kind of set all the time, but are much more threatening with it (Mega Houndoom). Nidoking is a good wallbreaker. But it really doesn't stack up to the rank at all. It has one set, with slight variances. Heracross, Victini, Mienshao, Hydreigon, all of these have at least 3 distinct effective sets. Mega Houndoom may be a one-dimensional Pokemon, but it is way more threatening than Nidoking. Sure, it has hard counters, but it threatens to do more with free turns than Nidoking. If Nidoking gets a free turn and you don't have an answer, you have to sac something. If Houndoom gets a free turn and you don't have an answer, it either uses Nasty Plot and smashes through your team, or uses Flame Charge and sweeps. Nidoking has trouble coming in against offense because even powerful resisted hits will 2HKO with ease, and is outsped by most Pokemon on those teams, so after it gets that free turn and kills something, it is forced out or dies. Most defensive teams should carry a counter to it as well, such as Snorlax, Umbreon, or Mew.

This isn't to say that Nidoking is bad by any means. It's still a terrific wallbreaker, can check the Fighting-types, has somewhat unpredictable and powerful coverage, and can really disrupt and pressure teams. However, it's not A+ rank. It's definitely at least in the A ranks, though, so let's compare it with the ones that have been placed in A- and A.

ugh this post is going to be even longer

The Pokemon that we have placed in A rank are Suicune, Darmanitan, Florges, Umbreon, Forretress, and Honchkrow. These are all mostly one-dimensional Pokemon that run that one set quite effectively, like Nidoking, so it looks like a good start. While there is some variance in their sets, just like Nidoking, they mostly run the same kinds of sets. However, these Pokemon also have no real competition within their rank. While it hasn't been officially ranked yet, Nidoqueen is, in my opinion, and I believe in general consensus as well, better than Nidoking. However, it faces the same problems as Nidoking that make it a simply good, rather than top of the metagame, wallbreaker. The bulk issue is not as much of a problem for it, but overall it's the same kind of Pokemon, just slightly better, so it would be A rank, not A+. If Nidoqueen did not exist, I think that Nidoking would be A rank. However, it does, and a Pokemon should not be the same rank as a Pokemon that is directly better than it.

Therefore, Nidoking for A-. I may make a post about Absol later, but I think most of what needs to be said has been said.
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Whether or not Nidoqueen exists is sort of irrelevant. If you think Nidoking, due to its flaws and strengths, would be A rank, then you're placing it at A rank. Just because a similar (sort of) Pokemon who hasn't been officially rated yet is currently in the rank that Nidoking -should- (according to you) be A rank doesn't mean that Nidoking can't be in that rank. I don't understand the point of spending a paragraph making a comparison between Nidoking and other A-ranked pokemon and then arbitrarily deciding that it should be in A-.

As I previously discussed, I don't think variability is really all too important when comparing Nidoking to other threats. There's a massive difference between Suicune and Nidoking; yes, they both fulfill their role relatively well, are threatening to a majority of the metagame, and are relatively one-dimensional. However, Suicune has plenty of hard counters - heliolisk, toxicroak, taunt jellicent, cm slowbro, subcm cress, and many more can use suicune as set-up fodder and completely turn the momentum around. On the other hand, there is nothing in this entire tier that can use Nidoking as set-up fodder. No matter what you bring in, it's a risk - SpD mew gets hit by Megahorn, Florges by Sludge Wave, Umbreon by Megahorn or Focus Blast.

It's because of this that I think Nidoking deserves to be higher than A rank. It would fit in with all of the other A ranked pokes, except for the fact that it has no counters. This makes it significantly better, and thus lifts it to A+.
 
in all honesty, queen is better than king in the sense that, like pk explained, it actually has bulk while retaining the same amount of power as king does. i think they should be the same rank, as the only noticeable difference is king's speed (which usually doesn't matter because it's still outsped by a good portion of the tier), and the fact that queen can get up hazards easier.
 
midend said:
I see. Thanks for the heads up! I don't see many queen though i see a tad too many scarfking flying around the tier. Weird...
Based on your explanation, can i infer that both have their uses actually and are in the same VR of either A/A-?
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Yes, both have their advantages over the other, however, I think that Nidoqueen's bulk is usually more valuable than Nidoking's speed, so while Nidoqueen is A rank in my opinion, Nidoking would be A-.
Kitten Milk said:
Whether or not Nidoqueen exists is sort of irrelevant. If you think Nidoking, due to its flaws and strengths, would be A rank, then you're placing it at A rank. Just because a similar (sort of) Pokemon who hasn't been officially rated yet is currently in the rank that Nidoking -should- (according to you) be A rank doesn't mean that Nidoking can't be in that rank. I don't understand the point of spending a paragraph making a comparison between Nidoking and other A-ranked pokemon and then arbitrarily deciding that it should be in A-.

As I previously discussed, I don't think variability is really all too important when comparing Nidoking to other threats. There's a massive difference between Suicune and Nidoking; yes, they both fulfill their role relatively well, are threatening to a majority of the metagame, and are relatively one-dimensional. However, Suicune has plenty of hard counters - heliolisk, toxicroak, taunt jellicent, cm slowbro, subcm cress, and many more can use suicune as set-up fodder and completely turn the momentum around. On the other hand, there is nothing in this entire tier that can use Nidoking as set-up fodder. No matter what you bring in, it's a risk - SpD mew gets hit by Megahorn, Florges by Sludge Wave, Umbreon by Megahorn or Focus Blast.

It's because of this that I think Nidoking deserves to be higher than A rank. It would fit in with all of the other A ranked pokes, except for the fact that it has no counters. This makes it significantly better, and thus lifts it to A+.
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Whether Nidoqueen exists is absolutely relevant. If a Pokemon faces a lot of competition from another one for teamslots, and is mostly outclassed by it, then that should be a reason that it is less viable. If Latios didn't exist in OU, Latias would be more viable, but since it does, Latias is ranked lower than it there. Competition for a role is a factor that comes into play. Just because a Pokemon isn't officially ranked, doesn't mean we can't make comparisons with it. I think I explained my reasoning for Nidoqueen fairly well in the context of my argument.
 
i would like to point out that nidoking CAN run modest, but usually chooses to run timid for speed reasons. If you just need florges and a few slower walls dead you can run modest on nidoking to make them more dead.
 
Ununhexium said:
i would like to point out that nidoking CAN run modest, but usually chooses to run timid for speed reasons. If you just need florges and a few slower walls dead you can run modest on nidoking to make them more dead.
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I used to run timid LO sub+3 king from gen5 till recently to at worst tie with
-band/lO hera
-non scarf sawk (yes sawk)
-modest poryz
-sub up on modest sharpedo
-KYUREM
-adamant darm(ive seen alot due to maximising wallbreaking pot)
-slightly bulky offensive roserade
-bulky moltres
 
Swamp Link said:
Yes, both have their advantages over the other, however, I think that Nidoqueen's bulk is usually more valuable than Nidoking's speed, so while Nidoqueen is A rank in my opinion, Nidoking would be A-.

Whether Nidoqueen exists is absolutely relevant. If a Pokemon faces a lot of competition from another one for teamslots, and is mostly outclassed by it, then that should be a reason that it is less viable. If Latios didn't exist in OU, Latias would be more viable, but since it does, Latias is ranked lower than it there. Competition for a role is a factor that comes into play. Just because a Pokemon isn't officially ranked, doesn't mean we can't make comparisons with it. I think I explained my reasoning for Nidoqueen fairly well in the context of my argument.
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I'm not suggesting that Nidoqueen's existence in the tier has no effect on King's widespread usability. It certainly has no effect on his objective viability, viability being the ability a pokemon has to deal with the rest of the pokes in the metagame. I'm not objecting to your ranking of Nidoqueen as better than Nidoking, I'm merely objecting to your assumptions about ranking. If a pokemon is objectively an A ranked pokemon based on its interactions with other pokes, as you seemed to suggest in your post, then it should be ranked A rank. The fact that a similar pokemon is -marginally- better at the same task and you think that that pokemon belongs in A rank as well does not diminish the viability of Nidoking. It's perfectly reasonable for them both to be in A rank, with the tacit knowledge that nidoking is technically slightly worse overall.

However, it seems tremendously unfair to say "nidoking would be A rank, but because it's outclassed by another poke that I think should be A rank as well, it should be arbitrarily moved down to a- rank". The problem with this is that it portrays the tiering system as a categorical classification of ranks rather than a spectrum of viability that's broken down into specific sections. Each subsection of the viability rankings could be split into two sub-sub-sections, and I think it would be perfectly reasonable for Nidoking to be in A2 and Nidoqueen to be in A1.

What Limitless has been stressing is to compare the pokes in question with other pokes in the tier you're planning to place them in. You did this for Nidoking, and concluded that it fit among the A rank pokemon (whether or not I completely agree with that is sort of irrelevant here). You also concluded that Nidoqueen fit in the A rank pokemon, which is also perfectly reasonable. However, just because the two pokes have the same typing, similar sprites, and similar names, doesn't mean they can't both inhabit the A rank spectrum with the acknowledgement that one of them is marginally better than the other for some teams.
 
Kitten Milk said:
I'm not suggesting that Nidoqueen's existence in the tier has no effect on King's widespread usability. It certainly has no effect on his objective viability, viability being the ability a pokemon has to deal with the rest of the pokes in the metagame. I'm not objecting to your ranking of Nidoqueen as better than Nidoking, I'm merely objecting to your assumptions about ranking. If a pokemon is objectively an A ranked pokemon based on its interactions with other pokes, as you seemed to suggest in your post, then it should be ranked A rank. The fact that a similar pokemon is -marginally- better at the same task and you think that that pokemon belongs in A rank as well does not diminish the viability of Nidoking. It's perfectly reasonable for them both to be in A rank, with the tacit knowledge that nidoking is technically slightly worse overall.

However, it seems tremendously unfair to say "nidoking would be A rank, but because it's outclassed by another poke that I think should be A rank as well, it should be arbitrarily moved down to a- rank". The problem with this is that it portrays the tiering system as a categorical classification of ranks rather than a spectrum of viability that's broken down into specific sections. Each subsection of the viability rankings could be split into two sub-sub-sections, and I think it would be perfectly reasonable for Nidoking to be in A2 and Nidoqueen to be in A1.

What Limitless has been stressing is to compare the pokes in question with other pokes in the tier you're planning to place them in. You did this for Nidoking, and concluded that it fit among the A rank pokemon (whether or not I completely agree with that is sort of irrelevant here). You also concluded that Nidoqueen fit in the A rank pokemon, which is also perfectly reasonable. However, just because the two pokes have the same typing, similar sprites, and similar names, doesn't mean they can't both inhabit the A rank spectrum with the acknowledgement that one of them is marginally better than the other for some teams.
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I think we need to try out her best 2 sets before we come to a conclusion then. Off we go ;x
 
Is there any room to have a quick discussion on Megadoom moving down to A+ (maybe after Nidoking and MegaAbsol are finalised). I don't want to go into too much detail about it atm since we should be discussing these 2, but I disagree with it moving down just because of Hydreigon.
 
panamaxis said:
Is there any room to have a quick discussion on Megadoom moving down to A+ (maybe after Nidoking and MegaAbsol are finalised). I don't want to go into too much detail about it atm since we should be discussing these 2, but I disagree with it moving down just because of Hydreigon.
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Feel free to discuss Houndoom now. I've made up my mind on Nidoking and Mega Absol; I just need to make the video.
 
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