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np: XY UU Stage 1 - Reload [Salamence: BL | Next: DROPS!!!]
- Thread starter kokoloko
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And what the hell do you sacrifice for it? Heavy Slam, Stealth Rock, Restalk, Thunder Wave, Roar, Earthquake etc are all viable options for it and hit far more things/have way better utility than... superpower on Crawdaunt lol
If you somehow meant Superpower on Crawdaunt, then Crabhammer already outdamages Superpower due to Filter.
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Aggron: 162-192 (47 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 145-172 (42.1 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Utility is relative, when Crawdaunt is the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier you're going to have to make sacrifices to cover it, that's just the nature of overpowered Pokemon. If your team needs a Crawdaunt counter, Superpower offers you more utility than support options that can easily be delegated to other team members. And Steel/Fighting isn't *that* bad of coverage, Superpower hits Steels and it's a solid neutral attack against most Electric/Fire types.
Or you could just use EQ to hit Electric and Fire types and focus on revenge killing Crawdaunt instead of walling it, because you're just not going to wall it
Revenge killing a dark type doesn't work; it doesn't have a problem switching out.
Yeah, that's the point.
I wouldn't say Crawdaunt plays like that, because due to the fact that it gets SD and DD, it can also play as a sweeper. I use SD Craw, and due to the fact that it gets something that very little of the tier has (priority), coupled with Adaptability and LO, it can easily 6-0 unprepared teams. I'd agree with you on an all out attacking set, though.
no volt switch/u-turn is kind of a big deal though
Crawdaunt's Aqua Jet is so powerful that it takes a healthy chunk off unresisted targets, not to mention that it resists Sucker Punch, the most common form of priority in UU. Banded Entei's Espeed fails to OHKO while Crawdaunt can KO back. That means that Crawdaunt can even pull its weight off for the team even against HO teams by checking things, unless there is something to absorb Aqua Jets, outspeeds and KO back, and even then it is dangerous in practice as Crawdaunt can just Knock Off/uses its coverage moves. For more defensive teams, only Chesnaught can take repeated hits from Crawdaunt by Leech Tect/Shield recovery and doesn't take a fuckton from Knock Off. And even then it is nailed by Aerial Ace or crippled by Switcheroo against Banded variants. So Crawdaunt will always pull off work for a team in at least severely cripple one Pokemom in a match....
One of the biggest flaws is that due to its poor bulk is that it struggles to switch in to things without being crippled a fair bit, especially in terms of Special bulk. If your opponent can play well it is hard to switch Crawdaunt in on something unless they lose a Pokemon.
It's second problem is that it is really slow and easy to revenge kill, even at +1 speed from a DD boost there are quite a few common UU Pokemon that still outspeed, including Raikou, Mega-Manec and a lot of Scarfers which can easily OHKO it.
Now I am not about to argue that Crawdaunt doesn't often pull its wait, because it does have rather strong consistency, though it doesn't always pull its wait if the opponent can predict well (still is a very strong poke though). I also believe that we should be arguing that its most broken role on a team is that of a Wall-breaking, hole-punching, hard-hitting monster, not so much of a sweeper as if you are getting 6-0ed just by a Crawdaunt then there is something seriously wrong with your team-building.
Now considering there is a bit of a comparison between Magnezone and Crawdaunt I feel like we should have a closer look at the differences between the 2.
Points in favour of Magnezone:
• Better bulk and Defensive typing granting better switch in opportunities and harder to revenge kill
• Volt Switch for momentum
• Better speed capable of outspeeding more threats and some potential to run scarf
• Better overall neutral coverage between STABs (less Pokemon in UU can resist both types)
• Has another option to Analytic in Magnet Pull which can catch people out, Crawdaunt should only run Adaptability.
Points in favour of Crawdaunt:
• Boosting moves to better setup a potential sweep
• Powerful priority (probably its best advantage)
• Added crippling utility in Knock Off
• Switcheroo
• Better coverage options
It's second problem is that it is really slow and easy to revenge kill, even at +1 speed from a DD boost there are quite a few common UU Pokemon that still outspeed, including Raikou, Mega-Manec and a lot of Scarfers which can easily OHKO it.
Now I am not about to argue that Crawdaunt doesn't often pull its wait, because it does have rather strong consistency, though it doesn't always pull its wait if the opponent can predict well (still is a very strong poke though). I also believe that we should be arguing that its most broken role on a team is that of a Wall-breaking, hole-punching, hard-hitting monster, not so much of a sweeper as if you are getting 6-0ed just by a Crawdaunt then there is something seriously wrong with your team-building.
Now considering there is a bit of a comparison between Magnezone and Crawdaunt I feel like we should have a closer look at the differences between the 2.
Points in favour of Magnezone:
• Better bulk and Defensive typing granting better switch in opportunities and harder to revenge kill
• Volt Switch for momentum
• Better speed capable of outspeeding more threats and some potential to run scarf
• Better overall neutral coverage between STABs (less Pokemon in UU can resist both types)
• Has another option to Analytic in Magnet Pull which can catch people out, Crawdaunt should only run Adaptability.
Points in favour of Crawdaunt:
• Boosting moves to better setup a potential sweep
• Powerful priority (probably its best advantage)
• Added crippling utility in Knock Off
• Switcheroo
• Better coverage options
Of course. I never said that Superpower was always superior to Earthquake, that would be silly. Defensive teams don't really have the luxury of saccing a wall and hoping for the revenge kill, and if you're trying to claim that all defensive teams should just give up until Crawdaunt is banned, that's just wrong, some will still try to adapt. Like I said, Superpower has neutral coverage on most Electric and Fire-types anyways; you lose coverage on Victini and Chandelure, but you actually gain coverage on Rotom-H and you now have the option of OHKOing Hydreigon if you need it (or OHKOing with prior damage, I haven't run calcs). Better to lose some tertiary coverage than auto-lose to the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier if you're defensive.
Overall good post, however, I disagree with the bold. The fact that crawdaunt has powerful priority makes it much more difficult to revenge kill then magnezone. With magnezone, all you really need to do is outspeed it and hit it with an SE attack to revenge (every remotely offensive team should be capable of this). Magnezone cannot sweep or even clean any competently built team. The fact that crawdaunt has priority means that your check must be reletively healthy or else they simply fall to crawdaunt's aqua jet before being able to attack, meaning that the very existence of crawdaunt on the enemy team forces you to play much more cautiously, much more so then the existence of magnezone. With magnezone, your megaman could be at one hp when it comes out, and magnezone will still have to hard swap out. However, a one hp megaman cannot check a crawdaunt, and that's a big distinguishing factor between the two.
Also, I don't know where you are getting that zone's dual stab is better then crawdaunts. Steel is a crummy offensive type, especially for a specs set, but dark and water are both great types to be locked into (yes I know water absorb exists. Still better then risking a free swap in for hippo or pre-megaman).
Theory aside, on the ladder crawdaunt doesn't seem to be all too overpowering. Yes, he has no direct counters (or at least, those that he has are pretty subpar otherwise). Yes, he can fuck a lot of teams up. At the same time, he has a ton of offensive checks that have the potential to do massive amounts of damage to Daunt in return, making his awesome attack not exactly without drawbacks. The most potent of these is Hydreigon, who can even switch in once against Crawdaunt if need be.
If you want to bypass crawdaunt's unfortunate speed, the amount of team support required is pretty over-the-top. Yes, he works very well with sticky web, but he still gets outsped by most of the offensive metagame and it's very hard to keep up. Yes, he works very well once passed a shell smash, but this is a rather transparent strategy that most teams have a counter to.
His priority is admittedly quite good, but it's not exactly the holy grail everyone's making it out to be. It doesn't have the power to OHKO offensive threats, even some of those who are weak to it (Victini, for instance), so it's perfectly well and good to stay in on a Vic and aqua jet it, but it'll just kill you and get momentum.
Honestly, the utter momentum suck that craw brings to teams makes him incomparable with Magnezone, whose threat lies both with its insane damage and its ability to do that insane damage without resetting momentum.
If you want to bypass crawdaunt's unfortunate speed, the amount of team support required is pretty over-the-top. Yes, he works very well with sticky web, but he still gets outsped by most of the offensive metagame and it's very hard to keep up. Yes, he works very well once passed a shell smash, but this is a rather transparent strategy that most teams have a counter to.
His priority is admittedly quite good, but it's not exactly the holy grail everyone's making it out to be. It doesn't have the power to OHKO offensive threats, even some of those who are weak to it (Victini, for instance), so it's perfectly well and good to stay in on a Vic and aqua jet it, but it'll just kill you and get momentum.
Honestly, the utter momentum suck that craw brings to teams makes him incomparable with Magnezone, whose threat lies both with its insane damage and its ability to do that insane damage without resetting momentum.
so after playing a bit on the ladder, I've been finding Toxicroak a pretty solid check to non-DD Crawdaunt. It's ability to clean up late game and check crocune (i ran into a suicune with Extrasensory, which messed me up). It has to watch out for boosted KO and Aerial Ace, but does a pretty good job at checking it.
And I've been running 252/252+ Mega Aggro to tank the Superpowers/Aerial Aces/Crabhammers...
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aggron: 114-135 (33.1 - 39.2%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 103-123 (29.9 - 35.7%) -- 28.2% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Aggron: 18-22 (5.2 - 6.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
And I've been running 252/252+ Mega Aggro to tank the Superpowers/Aerial Aces/Crabhammers...
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aggron: 114-135 (33.1 - 39.2%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 103-123 (29.9 - 35.7%) -- 28.2% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Aggron: 18-22 (5.2 - 6.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
I think most of my problem when running crawdaunt is people intentionally gearing up for what ever is being tested. I had a lot of people running arbitrary sets for stuff like florges or even another magnezone, just to take them out. Same is true for crawdaunt. I think the usage of toxicroak has nearly doubled in a day. Not that he is a true counter but he definately prevents choiced crawdaunt from using water moves.
Magnezone plays so much differently than crawdaunt I don't think it is fare to compare them. Crawdaunt has one of the meanest moves in the game. a 194BP KNOCK OFF with which it really rains terror on teams. With nearly nothing that wants to tank this and the rest not wanting to loose their item, there are few answers to what crawdaunt is cooking.
The few things that resist Crawdaunts godly coverage are very unfortunate without their item. Hydreigon looses scarf (and is OHKO'd by Superpower) even if you make crawdaunt switch, Hydreigon needs scarf to outspeed other scarfs or things like banded victini which are extremely threatening. Hydreigon being one of the few offensive things that can eat that V-create.
Toxicroak looses power or black sludge which is very important for offensive sets or additionally the substitute set that runs recovery.
it could also lose assault vest which really hurts Drain punch sets.
And Poliwraths under 0.27% usage (under 200th place) makes me feel its a bit of a forced counter.
Mega Aggron is the only solid one I see, but having it run max defenses and superpower just do deal with it seems like a bad idea to me. also having to mega beforehand just to take a hit from this monster and not taking too much damage to where it wouldn't work as a switch in anymore.
Crawdaunts only issue is switching in, since its slow (relative to sweepers) and lacks useful immunities like hydreigon or nidoking or mewbulk like victini. But it is fair to say that with his priority and his speed over most of the defensive game he is a very potent wall breaker and potentially the best cleaner unless the team gears directly towards dealing with him.
I'd vote to ban it just because of how hard his knock off hits and how badly it cripples a good vast majority of the meta that isn't completely wiped out by it. Unless you have a select few that can actually switch in (mega aggron and ampharos basically) you're switch in is going to take a huge chunk of health as well as lose their item. Decreasing their viablity even against what they're supposed to be countering later in the game. (That will likely be crawdaunt again)
I really wish UU would get some priority users that don't topple the whole dang meta though, seriously.
Magnezone plays so much differently than crawdaunt I don't think it is fare to compare them. Crawdaunt has one of the meanest moves in the game. a 194BP KNOCK OFF with which it really rains terror on teams. With nearly nothing that wants to tank this and the rest not wanting to loose their item, there are few answers to what crawdaunt is cooking.
The few things that resist Crawdaunts godly coverage are very unfortunate without their item. Hydreigon looses scarf (and is OHKO'd by Superpower) even if you make crawdaunt switch, Hydreigon needs scarf to outspeed other scarfs or things like banded victini which are extremely threatening. Hydreigon being one of the few offensive things that can eat that V-create.
Toxicroak looses power or black sludge which is very important for offensive sets or additionally the substitute set that runs recovery.
it could also lose assault vest which really hurts Drain punch sets.
And Poliwraths under 0.27% usage (under 200th place) makes me feel its a bit of a forced counter.
Mega Aggron is the only solid one I see, but having it run max defenses and superpower just do deal with it seems like a bad idea to me. also having to mega beforehand just to take a hit from this monster and not taking too much damage to where it wouldn't work as a switch in anymore.
Crawdaunts only issue is switching in, since its slow (relative to sweepers) and lacks useful immunities like hydreigon or nidoking or mewbulk like victini. But it is fair to say that with his priority and his speed over most of the defensive game he is a very potent wall breaker and potentially the best cleaner unless the team gears directly towards dealing with him.
I'd vote to ban it just because of how hard his knock off hits and how badly it cripples a good vast majority of the meta that isn't completely wiped out by it. Unless you have a select few that can actually switch in (mega aggron and ampharos basically) you're switch in is going to take a huge chunk of health as well as lose their item. Decreasing their viablity even against what they're supposed to be countering later in the game. (That will likely be crawdaunt again)
I really wish UU would get some priority users that don't topple the whole dang meta though, seriously.
It just came out of being banned. If we can't stop it knowing it's a big threat we probably never will. Everyone is either using Crawdaunt to the best he can be to have fun with something considered broken or has to play around it with whatever counters or checks they have. Toxicroak is good at beating Crawdaunt without taking damage but if the presence of one pokemon boosts one niche pokemon so much that's a good reason to ban it. Toxicroak on its own has a purpose with countering Suicune and Florges while very few pokemon can keep Crawdaunt from causing serious damage to a team. Mega Ampharos (assuming he already transformed) can check Crawdaunt but if it's already boosted he's going to take a lot of damage he can't restore.
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 185-218 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 276-325 (71.8 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Aggron Earthquake vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Crawdaunt: 218-257 (81.3 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 185-218 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 276-325 (71.8 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Aggron Earthquake vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Crawdaunt: 218-257 (81.3 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Well, we have entei and the elephant of lame to save us.
You'd think with a nickname like "elephant of lame", I could find a funny gif for it, but I can't.
I was actually a big fan of bulky banded entei back in the early days of OU, I'm sure it works fine here.
LO techmontop can actually output a disgusting amount of damage if given a free swap in.
Uhhhhmmm I guess all that's really left is sucker punch, unless shadow sneak m-bannette is a thing.
Toxicroak has wacuum wave i guess......
From what I could gather, every other priority move is resisted, but some very off beat pokes like Magmortar and ledian get Mach punch.
Yes, some shitmons have priority moves but even considering that there is zero reason to use them (seriously, Ledian is only a notch above Luvdisc.) UU is simply low on good priority users.
Elephant will be great once some more dragons get unbanned, thats for sure.
but it seems like a lot of the things that get banned just happen to have priority. I don't think I need to preach about UU's shortage of Priority, do I? You can scrape the barrel all you want out side of the few things WebBowser Mentioned. I can see Shadow sneak Gallade working.
Anywho, I still think crawdaunt is ridiculous. I did 51% to an empoleon with knock off while burned, I know empoleon does not run defensive but gosh, being able to offhandedly OHKO defensive mons without a band or SE seems like a bit much, especially while really crippling them in the process.
The amount of things that stop him are kind of peusdo stoppers and they all seem to share no recovery and require a mega (that or get really crippled in the process of ATTEMPTING to stop it) and cant seem to take anything over 20% damage while mega evolving before hand just to deal with it. (Pdef.MAggron can take 22% before it is in risk of being 2HKO'd by Crabhammer, superpower is not good on him because of filter making it match Crabhammers damage.)
but it seems like a lot of the things that get banned just happen to have priority. I don't think I need to preach about UU's shortage of Priority, do I? You can scrape the barrel all you want out side of the few things WebBowser Mentioned. I can see Shadow sneak Gallade working.
Anywho, I still think crawdaunt is ridiculous. I did 51% to an empoleon with knock off while burned, I know empoleon does not run defensive but gosh, being able to offhandedly OHKO defensive mons without a band or SE seems like a bit much, especially while really crippling them in the process.
The amount of things that stop him are kind of peusdo stoppers and they all seem to share no recovery and require a mega (that or get really crippled in the process of ATTEMPTING to stop it) and cant seem to take anything over 20% damage while mega evolving before hand just to deal with it. (Pdef.MAggron can take 22% before it is in risk of being 2HKO'd by Crabhammer, superpower is not good on him because of filter making it match Crabhammers damage.)
honchkrow and and absol (and mega absol of course) still have stronger priority although clearly not as reliable. i think cacturne is stronger too and entei is only a hair weaker so it's not as if UU never had to deal with insane priority.
we'll be getting that with subcoil Zygarde's reintroduction with +2 and +3 extremespeeds c:
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