Fine, Taunt is another thing however with its far higher attack, better defenses and overall better typing (2 weaknesses compared to 6) Landorus-T will almost always be the better choice. The dark typing causes far more problems than it brings benefits. Sure its nice to take less damage from Aegis Shadow Ball but thats not worth all the weaknesses that come along with it.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
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Fine, Taunt is another thing however with its far higher attack, better defenses and overall better typing (2 weaknesses compared to 6) Landorus-T will almost always be the better choice. The dark typing causes far more problems than it brings benefits. Sure its nice to take less damage from Aegis Shadow Ball but thats not worth all the weaknesses that come along with it.
But that's hardly an argument, it's obvious outclassed by Landorus-T. Haxorus is obviously Mega Charizard X, but everything has something to make them work of use. Do you have any other reason for it to not move up besides Landorus-T?
being one of the best counters to non flash cannon aegislash and being one of the most reliable checks to bisharp makes the dark type more than worthwile
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Krookodile: 138-164 (35 - 41.6%) -- 76.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 4 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Krookodile: 133-159 (33.7 - 40.3%) -- 35.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 174-206 (53.7 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Krookodile: 113-133 (28.6 - 33.7%) -- 98.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 248-294 (88.8 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
taunt is extremely good on krookodile and frankly I can barely stand using landorus t over krook due to the lack of taunt
Thats why Haxorus is C+ as well. C are the ranks for mons that are more or less outclassed except for some niches and Kroko is such a case. I simply dont see a reason to promote him, he fits perfectly with the other mons in C+.
Regarding Aegislash, it also loses to Sub Toxic sets so its not just about Flash Cannon.
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While krook is very good, I will say that, but it isn't an entire stop to Aegislash, as if you come in on SD, Aegislash can
+1 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Krookodile: 432-510 (130.1 - 153.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and although you can do a hefty amount of damage (252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 216-254 (66.6 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery), it is not necessarily
but it deserves way more than C+
+1 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Krookodile: 432-510 (130.1 - 153.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and although you can do a hefty amount of damage (252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 216-254 (66.6 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery), it is not necessarily
,Delibird is Amazing said:
but it deserves way more than C+
This calcs means absolutely nothing because it doesn't work like that. You bring in Krookodile as it Swords Dance, then proceed to kill it off with Earthquake, if you're letting it get to +2 then you're doing something wrong. Or if you do, then you bring it in, it still kills you after that before Aegislash can Sacred Sword. And not every Aegislash carries Sacred Sword too.
http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-04/moveset/ou-1760.0.txt
toxic is ran on an 1/8 of all aegislash. the most common aegislash set is ks/ss/ss/sb. which is a set krookodile counters.
The set he was using was 252 HP/252+ Def, so the calcs would look like this:
+1 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Krookodile: 298-352 (75.6 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Krookodile: 50-59 (12.6 - 14.9%) --
4 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 174-206 (53.7 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
So his statement is indeed true, as long as no hazards are on your side of the field as you switch in.
loom is def a-. it's very threatening with sash; when loom is in with a sash intact, and the opponent lacks something like mega venu or amoonguss, at minimum something is going to sleep and something is getting smacked for a sizable amount of damage. this is at minimum -- in a good scenario loom will nab a sleep and potential ko. this is an enormous immediate advantage, not to mention that technician mach punch lets it pick off a lot of faster threats, providing enormous utility against the greatly common sr exca as well as things like megados. breloom is a solid offensive mon deserving of a-.
When you say a few offensive mons that counter/hard check Loom, at that point the opponent must have had a sleep fodder to bring that in and actually deal with Loom, so Breloom has already put the opponent at a disadvantage. Latias you're doing craploads to btw; let's say you sleep something, Latias switches into Rock Tomb taking ~37%, Rock Tomb again, it's taken ~74% in total, Breloom is at its sash, and you finish it off. That's not exactly a great matchup for Latias. Mawile still loses around half its HP at the least assuming sleep fodder -> switch-in, of course assuming still that you can't switch anything into Mawile.
all in all loom is still a solid a- in my eyes.
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gar is definitely not a+. it's a good stallbreaker but not /great/ vs offense and has some glaring flaws in that it can hardly switch into anything and has sort of a disappointing pure damage output with black sludge sball. decent in a but no way a-.
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placement of toed is basically where you consider rain offense, and b+ is that place imo. if rain has more of a presence then a- is worth considering.
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ive used krook a bit and honestly c+ or b- is fine. the biggest issue is that it's sorta eclipsed by hippo/mandi/lando-t in various aspects, not quite outclassed but they give it large competition, boasting various aspects that make them stand out as choices. it's pretty neat and has its niches but idk if it needs to move up or not.
You can easily anti-lead Deo with something like Bisharp (think FLCL's team), also on sand offense which Breloom is commonly on (a sample is Dice's team) you have Exca. You can also freely Defog because Breloom easily ends Bisharp's reign of terror. So being vs Deo-D is not all bad.
How exactly does Breloom lose to Deo-S? Down to its sash for a Bullet Seed smack/Spore? Nothing about that is Breloom losing; you are crippling a preeminent hazard setter and revenge killer. There's the lead matchup vs Deo-D which I've already covered, is problematic but far from that _bad_.alexwolf said:
When you say a few offensive mons that counter/hard check Loom, at that point the opponent must have had a sleep fodder to bring that in and actually deal with Loom, so Breloom has already put the opponent at a disadvantage. Latias you're doing craploads to btw; let's say you sleep something, Latias switches into Rock Tomb taking ~37%, Rock Tomb again, it's taken ~74% in total, Breloom is at its sash, and you finish it off. That's not exactly a great matchup for Latias. Mawile still loses around half its HP at the least assuming sleep fodder -> switch-in, of course assuming still that you can't switch anything into Mawile.
all in all loom is still a solid a- in my eyes.
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gar is definitely not a+. it's a good stallbreaker but not /great/ vs offense and has some glaring flaws in that it can hardly switch into anything and has sort of a disappointing pure damage output with black sludge sball. decent in a but no way a-.
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placement of toed is basically where you consider rain offense, and b+ is that place imo. if rain has more of a presence then a- is worth considering.
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ive used krook a bit and honestly c+ or b- is fine. the biggest issue is that it's sorta eclipsed by hippo/mandi/lando-t in various aspects, not quite outclassed but they give it large competition, boasting various aspects that make them stand out as choices. it's pretty neat and has its niches but idk if it needs to move up or not.
What I meant by this is that it doesnt let Bisharp from annihilating your team if you defog.
Very good post overall, but even though Breloom requires prediction, it puts even more pressure on the opponent to go into the right check/counter because its moveset can vary a lot.
Just gonna play devil's advocate here, but Baton Pass is the "best playstyle" in OU but the components of the team are not S rank. So are we alloting Pokemon ranks on their playstyles or not, jwing?
To clarify, i was the one that brought up that standard Baton Pass team members should be pumped up a few ranks because of how potent full Baton Pass teams are as a whole. Then, people argued that all those Pokemon don't deserve high ranks because they have use only on Baton Pass teams, and only with very specific team members, which makes them incredibly niche Pokemon, except from Scolipede of course, and this is the reason that it is ranked the highest out of any other Baton Pass team member.
However, just because the standard Baton Pass team uses exactly the same 5 Pokemon doesn't mean that there is no room for variation, it just means that this is the most effective combination. If Pokemon such as Smeargle, Mr.Mime, or Sylveon were not available, i am sure that Baton Pass teams would still be a force to be reckoned with, just not as much as with the best combination available. And consider for a moment that Baton Pass teams at their strongest form are most probably broken, which is why most people want to nerf them. This means that even if you don't use the best available combination of Pokemon on a Baton Pass team, as long as you use Speed Boost Scolipede + Magic Bounce Espeon the Baton Pass team can still be incredibly effective, just not broken to the extend that Baton Pass teams are now. What does this mean? That each Baton Pass member doesn't need an entire team of 5 specific Pokemon to support it, the only musts are Espeon and Scolipede. This is not that different from Deoxys-D for example, which needs one Defiant user to punish the use of Defog, often Air Balloon Aegislash, and fast Pokemon that are able to pressure the Defog users, which doesn't leave a lot of room for options, and makes Deo-D offense really limited to what it can run, not that far away from Baton Pass teams.
And even if we accept that the less important members of Baton Pass teams need a whole team to support them and thus not deserving more than C rank due to being very niche options, this is not the case with Espeon and Scolipede. Espeon and Scolipede are the support on their own, and don't need anything else to rock your world. You can make a pretty damn good team with just Scolipede, Espeon, and four offensive Pokemon, because that's how good of combo those two are. Easy Defense + Speed boosts + no Taunt / phazing can make every offensive Pokemon a completely machine of destruction that is incredibly hard to stop.
For this reason, both Scolipede and Espeon should be at least A-, if not higher, because even outside of full Baton Pass teams they can make any sweeper capable of sweeping entire teams in a moment's notice, and instead of stuff such as SmashPass with duals screens or other gimmick strategies, the Scolipede + Espeon boosting combo is not hard at all to pull off. Both Espeon's and Scolipede's support is incredibly potent, and when combined together, this support easily reaches the level of Deo-D's and maybe even higher. However, you need two slots and not one to do this, which is why A or A- is more appropriate for those two, but not any lower.
This is not about full Baton Pass anymore, it's about the incredible potency of Scolipede + Espeon on all kinds of different teams, so let's please stop discriminating against those Pokemon just because they are the mvps of one of the most hated playstyles.
EDIT: Forgot to say that Scolipede should be one rank above Espeon due to its ability to function much more independently, as even without Espeon it can successfully use a cleaner set and a SD + Baton Pass + hazards set. So Scolipede for A and Espeon for A-.
However, just because the standard Baton Pass team uses exactly the same 5 Pokemon doesn't mean that there is no room for variation, it just means that this is the most effective combination. If Pokemon such as Smeargle, Mr.Mime, or Sylveon were not available, i am sure that Baton Pass teams would still be a force to be reckoned with, just not as much as with the best combination available. And consider for a moment that Baton Pass teams at their strongest form are most probably broken, which is why most people want to nerf them. This means that even if you don't use the best available combination of Pokemon on a Baton Pass team, as long as you use Speed Boost Scolipede + Magic Bounce Espeon the Baton Pass team can still be incredibly effective, just not broken to the extend that Baton Pass teams are now. What does this mean? That each Baton Pass member doesn't need an entire team of 5 specific Pokemon to support it, the only musts are Espeon and Scolipede. This is not that different from Deoxys-D for example, which needs one Defiant user to punish the use of Defog, often Air Balloon Aegislash, and fast Pokemon that are able to pressure the Defog users, which doesn't leave a lot of room for options, and makes Deo-D offense really limited to what it can run, not that far away from Baton Pass teams.
And even if we accept that the less important members of Baton Pass teams need a whole team to support them and thus not deserving more than C rank due to being very niche options, this is not the case with Espeon and Scolipede. Espeon and Scolipede are the support on their own, and don't need anything else to rock your world. You can make a pretty damn good team with just Scolipede, Espeon, and four offensive Pokemon, because that's how good of combo those two are. Easy Defense + Speed boosts + no Taunt / phazing can make every offensive Pokemon a completely machine of destruction that is incredibly hard to stop.
For this reason, both Scolipede and Espeon should be at least A-, if not higher, because even outside of full Baton Pass teams they can make any sweeper capable of sweeping entire teams in a moment's notice, and instead of stuff such as SmashPass with duals screens or other gimmick strategies, the Scolipede + Espeon boosting combo is not hard at all to pull off. Both Espeon's and Scolipede's support is incredibly potent, and when combined together, this support easily reaches the level of Deo-D's and maybe even higher. However, you need two slots and not one to do this, which is why A or A- is more appropriate for those two, but not any lower.
This is not about full Baton Pass anymore, it's about the incredible potency of Scolipede + Espeon on all kinds of different teams, so let's please stop discriminating against those Pokemon just because they are the mvps of one of the most hated playstyles.
EDIT: Forgot to say that Scolipede should be one rank above Espeon due to its ability to function much more independently, as even without Espeon it can successfully use a cleaner set and a SD + Baton Pass + hazards set. So Scolipede for A and Espeon for A-.
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All right, mega gardevoir in B+
Really.
Mega Gardevoir needs to be A- at the VERY least, if not flat out A.
Her Hyper Voice OHKO's several frail pokemon and 2HKO's many many more. I actually use Will-o-wisp on her along with 3 attacking moves so i can cripple bisharp as it tries to sucker punch, which is really cool, same with breloom. It's hilarious when scizor SD in your face as they get burned XD.
But Mega Gardevoir's great performance against baton pass and overall power, coupled with decent bulk to make it an emergency check to the likes of keldeo, thundurus, greninja, and latios is great. She has no access to priority, and that's a tad frustrating i agree, but her raw power more or less makes up for it imo.
Her STAB combo is great too. Fairy/Psychic covers every type except fire and steel, and focus blast hits steel, so that leaves some frail fire types that barely stomach psyshock (talon, char-y) and an aegislash, which remains your most solid counter. Aegislash is super annoying to deal with, and her speed is a little dissappointing, which is why i'm not nomming mega garde for A+ or anything.
Taunt also screws with stall pretty well :] And trace lets you copy speed boost from scolipede, i've won a few matches against baton pass w/zapdos over mr. mime just because of that extra speed.
She can easily pair with the likes of bisharp or keldeo to remove each other's checks and stuff and form a pretty decent offensive core too.
So, definition of A pokemon:
Mega Gardevoir is indeed fantastic in the current meta, and is more or less unparalleled in its role as a powerful fairy type special attacker, basically only receiving competition from specs sylveon. Gardevoir really only needs aegislash and super bulky shit like chansey gone and its guaranteed to poke big holes in the opposing teams as long as focus blasts hit :P Her flaws, mediocre speed and REALLY low physical bulk (and thus suspectibility to priority) are sorta annoying, but her decent special bulk can make up for that.
Mega Garde is a super powerful special wallbreaker which mainly uses a type with great offensive coverage to start with. When you have the second Stab removing a common type that walls your first, there's a sign of a decent pokemon already, and mega gardevoir is just that. (that's what makes fire/dragon STABs so fantastic)
So yeah, get this lady out of B+
Really.
Mega Gardevoir needs to be A- at the VERY least, if not flat out A.
Her Hyper Voice OHKO's several frail pokemon and 2HKO's many many more. I actually use Will-o-wisp on her along with 3 attacking moves so i can cripple bisharp as it tries to sucker punch, which is really cool, same with breloom. It's hilarious when scizor SD in your face as they get burned XD.
But Mega Gardevoir's great performance against baton pass and overall power, coupled with decent bulk to make it an emergency check to the likes of keldeo, thundurus, greninja, and latios is great. She has no access to priority, and that's a tad frustrating i agree, but her raw power more or less makes up for it imo.
Her STAB combo is great too. Fairy/Psychic covers every type except fire and steel, and focus blast hits steel, so that leaves some frail fire types that barely stomach psyshock (talon, char-y) and an aegislash, which remains your most solid counter. Aegislash is super annoying to deal with, and her speed is a little dissappointing, which is why i'm not nomming mega garde for A+ or anything.
Taunt also screws with stall pretty well :] And trace lets you copy speed boost from scolipede, i've won a few matches against baton pass w/zapdos over mr. mime just because of that extra speed.
She can easily pair with the likes of bisharp or keldeo to remove each other's checks and stuff and form a pretty decent offensive core too.
So, definition of A pokemon:
Mega Gardevoir is indeed fantastic in the current meta, and is more or less unparalleled in its role as a powerful fairy type special attacker, basically only receiving competition from specs sylveon. Gardevoir really only needs aegislash and super bulky shit like chansey gone and its guaranteed to poke big holes in the opposing teams as long as focus blasts hit :P Her flaws, mediocre speed and REALLY low physical bulk (and thus suspectibility to priority) are sorta annoying, but her decent special bulk can make up for that.
Mega Garde is a super powerful special wallbreaker which mainly uses a type with great offensive coverage to start with. When you have the second Stab removing a common type that walls your first, there's a sign of a decent pokemon already, and mega gardevoir is just that. (that's what makes fire/dragon STABs so fantastic)
So yeah, get this lady out of B+
I prefer my Mega Gardevoir Male :^)
Because Breloom facilitates low-risk defogging, essentially allowing it to pull its weight even if Deo-D wins the lead war. It also isn't as straightforward a match up as you might imagine, since LO Breloom 2HKOs with Bullet Seed, thus making it dangerous for Deo-D to begin the match by coating or taunting. Your opponent, after all, doesn't know what item you're running at the start of the match.
If anything, the opposite is true. Breloom's 'nerfing' was seriously overhyped, to the point where it was being proposed for UU or RU when X and Y were released. Virtually every meta trend since then, however, has been kind to Breloom. Neither of the new grass-ghost 'mons ended up making the OU cut, previous counters such as Celebi have fallen off the map, Mega Venusaur's been on the decline for months, birdspam is declining as well, Bisharp is everywhere, and Megatar and SR Excadrill are on the rise. The meta has become an environment where Breloom's primary threats are under-represented and it's uniquely suited to check some of the most dangerous and powerful threats in the meta.
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Everything gets shut down by something else. You just pair Breloom up with something that leads off well against Deo-D such as Nasty Plot Thundurus or Knock Off Landorus. I think a +4 Thundurus with a 6v5 is quite worth Breloom's Sash being broken anyway, with there still being a posibility of removing the hazards later on. Besides, Deo-D is not exactly everywhere. Pretty sure it's below 15% usage.
i have to disagree on most of those points. 130 base sp. Attack with incredible coverage is not slightly lowered power, and 110 speed is great besides being trolled by thundy T. Gengars typing and ability give it handy resist to grass, poison, bug, fairy, and a whopping 3 immunities, which seems a better than a mediocre typing IMO. Personally the only reason i think its A+ material is because this thing is like a mini thundurus and can run so many different sets it isn't funny. Gengar does have the bulk problem, lack of priority and no boosting moves but i don't really understand where the other problems where coming from because sub gengar can fuck up a lot of offensive and balanced teams and taunt will o wisp can make stall his bitch, in essence
Scolipede + espeon: Hm, I see were alexwolf is coming from but baton pass is about to be nerfed anyway.
Gengar: People have made a few good points about gengar. It can be a pain for stall and balanced with its utility attacker set aswell as being somewhat of a pain for HO with its good speed tier (though not great). But seriously, gengar is not at the level of other A+ pokemon. Yes it has 4 handy immunities (normal isn't too handy lol) which allows it to switch in a lot, a good sp.attack and arguably the most spammable stab in OU but it has a lot of things holding it back. Gengar although fast, isn't too fast. Most HO packs a gren/thund/deo s or even talon which can easily revenge kill gengar. Gengar cant really switch into any offencive moves that it resists, it can only switch in on immunities. Seriously tho, If we compare gengar to other A+ pokemon:
Keldeo, Zard x and Mega mawhile - Three of the biggest threats in the meta game, wallbreakers with insane power and good typing that demand a check/counter on all teams in OU.
Tyranitar/Mega ttar - One of the most versatile pokemon in the meta. It can be sash lead, scarf, band, smooth rock mega ddance ect. This thing is just versatile asf and has a superb typing to check lots of threats such as bird spam/lati's. Ttar also has its great sp.defence becausr it is 1.5x better in ttars summoned sand. Just a great check to lots of pokemon, great typing, good bulk and awesome versatility.
Talonflame - The best revenge killer in OU. This thing can spam brave birds with band, run a bulk up set with wisp of even a mixed set effectively. With priority brave bird nothing can match its revenge killer status.
Azumarill - One of the best offencive typings in OU. This thing just plows through offencive teams and is ridiculously hard to check. An outstanding pokemon that threatens so many teams with its great attack and amazing stabs.
Bisharp - One of the most influential pokemon in the meta. With an insanely powerful sucker punch and great stabs with knock off (knock off is borken nerf plz) and an awesome ability in defiant it is a pain for so many teams. One of the members of the deosharp core, the most used core in OU, just extremely influential and all teams pack a check if not two.
Greninja - Frail, but an insanely good speed tier and an amazing ability and coveredge that allows it to check/revenge kill a huge portion of the meta, and be a nightmare for offencive teams.
Those were just some of the A+ pokemon and gengar doesn't compare to any of them. Gengar is good, yes, but it isn't at the level of other A+ pokemon and is fine where it is.
Breloom: This thing just wreacks havoc and always leaves the user in a good position if played well, easily A- IMO.
Mega voir: I used to want to see this thing move up, and i still could, but the fact that it is countered by one of the most used pokemon in the meta, aegi, can be easily revenge killed because of its speed tier and crap defence holds it back. Very good IMO, but needs support to function well.
Gengar: People have made a few good points about gengar. It can be a pain for stall and balanced with its utility attacker set aswell as being somewhat of a pain for HO with its good speed tier (though not great). But seriously, gengar is not at the level of other A+ pokemon. Yes it has 4 handy immunities (normal isn't too handy lol) which allows it to switch in a lot, a good sp.attack and arguably the most spammable stab in OU but it has a lot of things holding it back. Gengar although fast, isn't too fast. Most HO packs a gren/thund/deo s or even talon which can easily revenge kill gengar. Gengar cant really switch into any offencive moves that it resists, it can only switch in on immunities. Seriously tho, If we compare gengar to other A+ pokemon:
Keldeo, Zard x and Mega mawhile - Three of the biggest threats in the meta game, wallbreakers with insane power and good typing that demand a check/counter on all teams in OU.
Tyranitar/Mega ttar - One of the most versatile pokemon in the meta. It can be sash lead, scarf, band, smooth rock mega ddance ect. This thing is just versatile asf and has a superb typing to check lots of threats such as bird spam/lati's. Ttar also has its great sp.defence becausr it is 1.5x better in ttars summoned sand. Just a great check to lots of pokemon, great typing, good bulk and awesome versatility.
Talonflame - The best revenge killer in OU. This thing can spam brave birds with band, run a bulk up set with wisp of even a mixed set effectively. With priority brave bird nothing can match its revenge killer status.
Azumarill - One of the best offencive typings in OU. This thing just plows through offencive teams and is ridiculously hard to check. An outstanding pokemon that threatens so many teams with its great attack and amazing stabs.
Bisharp - One of the most influential pokemon in the meta. With an insanely powerful sucker punch and great stabs with knock off (knock off is borken nerf plz) and an awesome ability in defiant it is a pain for so many teams. One of the members of the deosharp core, the most used core in OU, just extremely influential and all teams pack a check if not two.
Greninja - Frail, but an insanely good speed tier and an amazing ability and coveredge that allows it to check/revenge kill a huge portion of the meta, and be a nightmare for offencive teams.
Those were just some of the A+ pokemon and gengar doesn't compare to any of them. Gengar is good, yes, but it isn't at the level of other A+ pokemon and is fine where it is.
Breloom: This thing just wreacks havoc and always leaves the user in a good position if played well, easily A- IMO.
Mega voir: I used to want to see this thing move up, and i still could, but the fact that it is countered by one of the most used pokemon in the meta, aegi, can be easily revenge killed because of its speed tier and crap defence holds it back. Very good IMO, but needs support to function well.
Gengar is good, but as earlier users have posted it's not as good in the current HO vs BP oriented meta of OU. Being both fragile (esp. on the physical side!) AND lacking priority is not a good combination right now. The fact that it gets murdered by Knock-off (which, based on the arguments against Chansey, is apparently being run by everyon mon on every team in OU) is another negative against it.
Breloom is, admittedly, a great mon that's underrated. Again, as mentioned by others, it is an asset when played perfectly. However Breloom is such an incredibly tricky pokemon to use who requires not only really good prediction, but also extremely tactical decisionmaking. People who just dump Breloom into their team will complain that he sucks, because he isn't the kind of mon that you add just because you have a slot free - you pick Breloom because you precisely need him. He isn't a build-a-team around mon, nor is he a niche mon, but he's a specialist, and you've already misplayed Breloom if you treat him as a generic Sleep-Inducer/Physical Attacker. Breloom's player has so many variables to consider when using him, such as when to use Spore, how to work around Sleep Clause, is it worth switching Breloom into hazards or is it better to switch him in with an intact Sash, etc. AND THAT'S ON TOP OF PREDICTING WHAT YOUR OPPONENT WOULD DO. For all of you who can use Breloom, more power to you, but I think the extreme technical difficulty of using him should take at least one rank off his viability.
Politoed - Is it fair to compare Toed to Hippowdon or to Tyranitar or Char-Y, the other good weather inducers in OU? I mean, both Don and Tar are OU, but Char-Y's presence banished Ninetails to Limbo. (Let's not talk about Abomasnow now). I don't know how to evaluate Toed because I don't know how diverse Rain Teams are right now - is Rain Stall and Rain Balance still a thing? Or is it now just Toed+Keldeo+Swift Swimmer?
Breloom is, admittedly, a great mon that's underrated. Again, as mentioned by others, it is an asset when played perfectly. However Breloom is such an incredibly tricky pokemon to use who requires not only really good prediction, but also extremely tactical decisionmaking. People who just dump Breloom into their team will complain that he sucks, because he isn't the kind of mon that you add just because you have a slot free - you pick Breloom because you precisely need him. He isn't a build-a-team around mon, nor is he a niche mon, but he's a specialist, and you've already misplayed Breloom if you treat him as a generic Sleep-Inducer/Physical Attacker. Breloom's player has so many variables to consider when using him, such as when to use Spore, how to work around Sleep Clause, is it worth switching Breloom into hazards or is it better to switch him in with an intact Sash, etc. AND THAT'S ON TOP OF PREDICTING WHAT YOUR OPPONENT WOULD DO. For all of you who can use Breloom, more power to you, but I think the extreme technical difficulty of using him should take at least one rank off his viability.
Politoed - Is it fair to compare Toed to Hippowdon or to Tyranitar or Char-Y, the other good weather inducers in OU? I mean, both Don and Tar are OU, but Char-Y's presence banished Ninetails to Limbo. (Let's not talk about Abomasnow now). I don't know how to evaluate Toed because I don't know how diverse Rain Teams are right now - is Rain Stall and Rain Balance still a thing? Or is it now just Toed+Keldeo+Swift Swimmer?
Just saying the viability of a pokemon shouldn't be based on the player using it. The fact that breloom forces you're oponent to make 50/50 plays, revenge kills top threats like azum, bisharp, mega ttar, mega gyara ect, and is a great last minute sporer aswell as leaving you in a good position if played well means it is definately an A- poke.
I'd like to see Mega voir move up as well. I really would but right now, the meta is complete ass for it with priority rape bird (brave ohkos) and scizor every which direction. Idk, maybe we're just going about this wrong. Once Aegislash and Scizor are gone, it gets free reign to just scream everyone into all oblivion. Maybe this qualifies for A- but this seems like a bit much support. But then again, everything has its own counters and that's why we have teams of 6. Idk, I'm indecisive but not opposed to either decision.
TFL http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/4387/42855664.jpg
I am also completely for MegaVoir moving up to A- (which would be its absolute peak). As alexwolf has said, WoW is so good on this thing to maim a good number of its would-be counters and checks on the switch. Scizor, Bisharp, Excadrill, MMawile, and to some extent Aegi are all much more manageable after they are burned. Hyper Voice absolutely wrecks a ton of balance teams, a lot of HO teams, and most BP chain teams that don't carry Mime.
Gardy's main problem is that usually, it really needs to pair with Bisharp to do its job well and take out things such as Chansey and Aegi (still a HUGE risk if it runs sacred sword). It also finds itself having to switch out often because of lack of priority or lack of speed (TrollFreak really should have put those extra 10 points into speed instead of Atk....) but she still makes a great revenge killer who can come in and threaten a large part of the meta. All in all, I really think MegaVoir has as much niche right now as every other mon in A-.
MegaVoir for A- all the way.
Gardy's main problem is that usually, it really needs to pair with Bisharp to do its job well and take out things such as Chansey and Aegi (still a HUGE risk if it runs sacred sword). It also finds itself having to switch out often because of lack of priority or lack of speed (TrollFreak really should have put those extra 10 points into speed instead of Atk....) but she still makes a great revenge killer who can come in and threaten a large part of the meta. All in all, I really think MegaVoir has as much niche right now as every other mon in A-.
MegaVoir for A- all the way.
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