Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Jacks0n]

In a power-oriented metagame, Latios finds itself to be far more useful with its 130 Special Attack, in contrast to Latias's 110. Its only real niche is being a Healing Wish/Defog supporter, but there's nothing else it can do that isn't outperformed by Latios. Keep Latias in A-.

thw fact that latias has more bulk and healing wish is a huge boon for offencive teams. It still hits really hard but checks zard y and keldeo a lot better aswell as clutching games w/ healing wish. It was covered in the reranking thread quite a bit and everyone supported it moving up.

 

[Albacore]

In a power-oriented metagame, Latios finds itself to be far more useful with its 130 Special Attack, in contrast to Latias's 110. Its only real niche is being a Healing Wish/Defog supporter, but there's nothing else it can do that isn't outperformed by Latios. Keep Latias in A-.

IMO the offensiveness of the metagame is actually an argument for Latias going up, not against it. If it's put on an offensive team, Latias provides far more useful support than Latios thanks to Healing Wish, keeping the precious momentum intact while also healing up a win condition. Healing Wish is also a way for it to escape pursuit trappers, which Latios can't really do outside of just raw power and coverage: can't 2HKO TTar unless its running Surf or HP Fighting and TTar is running no bulk, in which case it's almost certainly scarfed and still hits hard with Pursuit, can't touch Aegislash outside of Hidden Power which does nothing anyway, and although it can 2HKO Bisharp with TBolt, unless it's running HP Fighting as a lure, it still has to survive a 50/50 in Bisharp's favor. Latias completely avoids this 50/50 while using Healing Wish in his face. Pesonally, I'd always pick Latias on an offensive team, and Latios on a more bulky one.

As I've said before, I believe Healing Wish to be reason enough to move Latias to A

 

[Clone]

Gonna throw my two cents in on Latias. I fully support her to move to A. In general, having an offensive defogger that has very good bulk is more than enough of a reason to add that poke onto a team. Add in Healing Wish, and you have a role that cannot be covered by any other mon in the tier. Latias is a team Ayer is multiple ways, being able to reliably check Keldeo and Zard Y, as well as many other special attackers is somethig that Latios simy can't do (Latios is 2HKOed by Icy Wind and Fire Blast IIRC). Add on the fact that there's also a Calm Mind sweeper set running around (something Latios wishes he could do), and you have a mon that can fulfill multiple roles depending on the set. Latios is more powerful, sure, but he doesn't outclass his sister that much, if at all.

 

[Ropeburn]

I'm on the same train of thought on Latias. I feel that between better Defenses and the incredible move: Healing Wish, that Latias has a significant enough niche over Latios to justify moving her up into the same area.

252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD LatiOs in Sun: 159-187 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD LatiAs in Sun: 137-162 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO

 

[Nog]

I'll like to say something: think before you post. Also, if you haven't used it, don't comment on it.

Wishful thinking, but never gonna happen babe.

Also so people don't have to flip between pages here are the things being discussed:
- Latias to A (more discussion please)
- Rotom-Wash to A (more discussion please)
- Rotom-Heat to B- (look at bumper cars post, probably going to stay)
- Infernape to B- (probably going to move up)
- Mega Alakazam to B or B+ (more discussion please)
- Gliscor to A- (more discussion please)
- Espeon to B- (more discussion please)

leggo

 

[Kyuzeth]

Time to give this round a spin.

Latias (A-) -> A | Yeah, I'm starting to see why Latias's bulk and its access to Healing Wish prove to be useful, especially after that Megazard Y calc. Saw supporters' points and they're all really good, so at that, I say Latias for A.

Rotom-W (A-) -> Keep in A- | Despite its ability to incessantly spread status and tank hits, which is definitely a useful quality, Rotom-W's bulk is kind of overrated. 50 HP really drags the washing machine down and some dominant Pokémon still shit all over it, good examples being the Mega Charizard and the Eons. Keep it in A-.

Rotom-H (C) -> Keep in C | Overrated as shit, lol. Never worth using over Mega Ampharos or Mega Manectric, its niche is far from enough to justify it moving up. Keep in C.

Infernape (C) -> B- | I'd say Infernape's a pretty useful mixed attacker, but nothing too ground-breaking. Certainly more useful than stuff like Mega Houndoom, however, as Infernape has far less opportunity cost and more versatility. Monkey for B-.

Mega Alakazam (B-) -> B/B+ | I think I've already said enough about this guy.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-viability-ranking-thread-v2.3502428/page-131#post-5530183
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-viability-ranking-thread-v2.3502428/page-133#post-5533972
Several other posts from fellow supporters of this move support my reasons and those give a lot of good points, too. To B/B+ with Big-Zam, either's good. Seriously, if Mega Heracross is in B, this thing should certainly be there or stand higher.

 

[Andrew]

I support Latias for A, healing wish is excellent on a fast paced team that needs to give a sweeper another lease on life. Her bulk is enough to take anything from keldeo better than latios, as well as stray hp ices. And her power with a life orb isn't even that bad, here are some more calcs:

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 296-348 (98.6 - 116%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 190-226 (52.1 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (venu fully def. just to show she still gets 2hko
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 257-304 (71.5 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (latios has a 43% chance of OHKO)
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 330-393 (102.1 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 218-257 (73.1 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (latios doesn't even OHKO char Y with draco or tbolt)
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 296-348 (92.5 - 108.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 140 SpD Mega Charizard X: 484-569 (134.8 - 158.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

These are some common mons Latias might go up against and she still gets the job done, but honestly healing wish is great when you've got a dangerous sweeper like Mega Pinsir, Gyara, T-Tar, Mawile, CB Azumarill etc who may have got status'd and low on health.

 

[the-bumper-car]

I've used Healing Wish Latias before, and it is fantastic on HO/Offensive teams, especially when your win condition is something that the environment is overprepared for. I remember it being part of the "Kang vs the world" archetype that helped get Mega-Kang banned, and while there hasn't been another sweeper as dominating as Kang was (M-Lucario probably comes closest) I think that Healing Wish Latias would be a great partner to, say, M-Pinsir or ZardX, who really get worn down nowadays in the current OU (even when Roosting, in the case of ZardX!).

As for Mega-Zam, I think the environment is currently more friendly to it now, so I'd support it going up to B, but I don't think it deserves B+. It's still fragile af, and Trace is an ability where the reward for attempting to get the most out of it isn't good enough compared to the potential risks.

 

[Ladder Heroes]

People have been calling Infernape a weak attacker but here are some calcs from the Band set consisting of dual STABs + Grass Knot/U-Turn (which cannot be burned and isn't Stealth Rock weak) :

-2 252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 176-210 (54.3 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 175-207 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 226-267 (52 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 158-188 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Most of OU premier physical walls cannot switch into Infernape and his dual STABs.

What about Quagsire?

4 SpA Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 340-404 (86.2 - 102.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This leaves Slowbro as the only thing on stall that can avoid the 2HKO Infernape's attacks.

But wait, there's more!

Don't forget about Infernape's ability to use its equally powerful special attack stat:

From the mixed attacking set:

76 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 203-239 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The band set can also U-turn out.



Nothing on stall can switch into Infernape and its many sets

Send that motherfucker to B-.

 

[dinotrek27]

People have been calling Infernape a weak attacker but here are some calcs from the Band set consisting of dual STABs + Grass Knot/U-Turn (which cannot be burned and isn't Stealth Rock weak) :

-2 252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 176-210 (54.3 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 175-207 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 226-267 (52 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 158-188 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Most of OU premier physical walls cannot switch into Infernape and his dual STABs.

What about Quagsire?

4 SpA Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 340-404 (86.2 - 102.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This leaves Slowbro as the only thing on stall that can avoid the 2HKO Infernape's attacks.

But wait, there's more!

Don't forget about Infernape's ability to use its equally powerful special attack stat:

From the mixed attacking set:

76 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 203-239 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The band set can also U-turn out.



Nothing on stall can switch into Infernape and its many sets

Send that motherfucker to B-.

How about Mega Zard X or Y lol

 

[QuickBH]

CB is kind of a bad set IMO because Infernape really needs to switch moves. For the mixed set, specially defensive Clefable can give Infernape troubles, and bulky Dragonite, but that's about it. He beats the rest of stall, even being able to 2HKO mega Venusaur after SR with 88 Sp.A EV's and Fire Blast. Send Infernape to B-. He's way better than the Pokemon in C and C+ and his niche is way more clear and notable IMO.

 

[Ladder Heroes]

CB is kind of a bad set IMO because Infernape really needs to switch moves. For the mixed set, specially defensive Clefable can give Infernape troubles, and bulky d-Nite (giving credit to monte cristo) , but that's about it. Send Infernape to B-. He's way better than the Pokemon in C and C+ and his niche is way more clear and notable IMO.

Infernape often runs Stone Edge for D-nite. Clefable is run mainly on balance and it still doesn't like flare blitzes.

How about Mega Zard X or Y lol

What about the Zards? ZardY can't take a Flare Blitz well, ZardX doesn't like a Close Combat, and Infernape often runs Stone Edge or ThunderPunch

 

[dinotrek27]

What about the Zards? ZardY can't take a Flare Blitz well, ZardX doesn't like a Close Combat, and Infernape often runs Stone Edge or ThunderPunch

True but remember Infernape only has 4 moveslots, 2 if which are Flare Blitz or -insert fire move here-, CC, U-turn and now you have one slot to get rid of Clefable, Hippo, Zards(Zard-X can take a few CC given Napes low power and Y resists even though It shouldn't switch in on the fire move), CBBNite, Talonflame. I support the B- somewhat but not the CB set. Mixed set with rock slide, fire blast, CC, Thunder Punch or Grass Knot would be fine.

 

[the-bumper-car]

Nothing on stall can switch into Infernape and its many sets

Send that motherfucker to B-.

M-Venusaur's calcs, based on the OU analysis:

252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 158-188 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
This means M-venu is perfectly free to Synthesis, Sleep Powder, or Leech Seed, and then take out Infernape via Sludge Bomb.
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Infernape: 153-180 (52.2 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - factoring in recoil from Flare Blitz, CB Infernape is far more likely to drop before M-Venu does, and M-Venu can shrug that damage off.

For Bulky CharX:
252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 229-271 (63.7 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Looks impressive, right? Except this is Close Combat, and Infernape outspeeds CharX... so what happens when CharX counterattacks an Infernape that's had its defenses lowered by Close Combat?
0 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 286-337 (97.6 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Ouch. If Infernape does survive the Dragon Claw, nothing's stopping CharX from switching out to something that can take on CCs - like Clefable.

Clefable Calcs:
252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 110-130 (27.9 - 32.9%) -- 87.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 220-261 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Again, Infernape looks good, except if you factor in Flare Blitz recoil on Infernape (50% of damage done to target, for a minimum of 27.9% damage to Infernape)
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Infernape: 130-154 (44.3 - 52.5%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO
Clefable can Moonlight/Wish/Calm Mind while Infernape dies to recoil, and take off almost 50% of Infernape's life via Moonblast.

Let's not forget Bulk-up Talonflame, a really underrated pokemon:
252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Talonflame: 165-194 (45.9 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Talonflame: 165-194 (45.9 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 288-342 (98.2 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

BU Talonflame uses non-Stone Edge Infernape as set-up bait.

 

[JebusChrist]

M-Venusaur's calcs, based on the OU analysis:

252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 158-188 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
This means M-venu is perfectly free to Synthesis, Sleep Powder, or Leech Seed, and then take out Infernape via Sludge Bomb.
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Infernape: 153-180 (52.2 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - factoring in recoil from Flare Blitz, CB Infernape is far more likely to drop before M-Venu does, and M-Venu can shrug that damage off.

For Bulky CharX:
252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 229-271 (63.7 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Looks impressive, right? Except this is Close Combat, and Infernape outspeeds CharX... so what happens when CharX counterattacks an Infernape that's had its defenses lowered by Close Combat?
0 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 286-337 (97.6 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Ouch. If Infernape does survive the Dragon Claw, nothing's stopping CharX from switching out to something that can take on CCs - like Clefable.

Clefable Calcs:
252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 110-130 (27.9 - 32.9%) -- 87.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 220-261 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Again, Infernape looks good, except if you factor in Flare Blitz recoil on Infernape (50% of damage done to target, for a minimum of 27.9% damage to Infernape)
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Infernape: 130-154 (44.3 - 52.5%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO
Clefable can Moonlight/Wish/Calm Mind while Infernape dies to recoil, and take off almost 50% of Infernape's life via Moonblast.

Let's not forget Bulk-up Talonflame, a really underrated pokemon:
252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Talonflame: 165-194 (45.9 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Talonflame: 165-194 (45.9 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 288-342 (98.2 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

BU Talonflame uses non-Stone Edge Infernape as set-up bait.

All of these things are going to die in two hits, and ape outspeeds. The point isn't that it has no checks, the point is stall can't reliably counter it with rocks up if ape chooses the right move. And of course Talonflame is gonna beat Infernape lol.

 

[Ladder Heroes]

True but remember Infernape only has 4 moveslots, 2 if which are Flare Blitz or -insert fire move here-, CC, U-turn and now you have one slot to get rid of Clefable, Hippo, Zards(Zard-X can take a few CC given Napes low power and Y resists even though It shouldn't switch in on the fire move), CBBNite, Talonflame. I support the B- somewhat but not the CB set. Mixed set with rock slide, fire blast, CC, Thunder Punch or Grass Knot would be fine.

U-Turn is nice but not necessary. Now tell me what can come in in a band set with Dual STABs plus grass knot and stone edge?

 

[QuickBH]

U-Turn is nice but not necessary. Now tell me what can come in in a band set with Dual STABs plus grass knot and stone edge?

The point they're trying to make is that with CB, it's also extremely risky FOR YOU especially with the recoil from Flare Blitz and the fact that you are locked in to the move that you choose, making it not the most reliable choice.

Please make this a worthwhile discussion, mixed LO Infernape and the stallbreaker set are the sets that make Infernape a good pick, please use those to prove your point.

 

[alexwolf]

Stop talking about the power of DeoSharp teams in the meta guys, it's irrelevant to the thread.

About Mega Zam, it's good but not that good, it should stay in B-. It is fast and powerful yeah, but it is easy to check and easy to revenge kill, with notable checks being Mega Mawile, Mega Scizor, Aegislash, Mandibuzz, and Chansey, and revenge killers Bisharp, Talonflame, CBNite, Scarf Excadrill, Deo-S, Azumarill, and most other priority users and Scarfers. Also, of course the fact that it's a MEvo gives it more competition because the opportunity cost of Mega Zam gets bigger. Not only do you need to support Zam to cover its weaknesses, but you also have to make sure that this support wouldn't be enough to make the other MEvos even more effective than Mega Zam. Mega Zam's biggest draw is as a fast hard hitter for offensive teams with the ability to revenge kill Sand Rush Exca and Swift Swim users, both huge probs to many offensive teams.

Also, i don't agree with Nape moving to B-. It's stallbreaking set is in general an inferior Mew with the ability to counter Bisharp, similarly to how Raikou is in general outclassed by Thundurus and Mega Manectric outside of the ability to counter Thundurus. The same goes for mixed Nape, it's simply an inferior Keldeo or Landorus in terms of wallbreaking, but Nape can beat Mega Venu and Mandibuzz easier than Keldeo and Landorus can respectively. Not that Keldeo and Lando can't get past those pokes on their own, just not as easy as Infernape can. Also, Inferanpe has Mach Punch over those two, which is nice but not that nice to warrant a promotion to B-. All in all, Infernape is a viable pick in OU, but faces huge compeition from better Pokemon that do its job better in most cases, so C+ is way more fitting for such a niche Pokemon than anywhere in B.

I agree with Rotom-W and Latias for A btw.

 

[alexwolf]

Double post because it's time for an update:

Rotom-W: A- ---> A
Shuckle: Stays in C+
Toxicroak: C ---> C-
Heatran: Stays in A
Latias: A- ---> A
Volcarona: B- ---> C+
Infernape: Stays in C+

Rotom-W gets a promotion because it's a great Sand Rush Excadrill check, something every offensive team needs. This alone is a good enough reason to promote it as offensive teams don't have many ways to check Sand Rush EDxca, and Rotom-W is one of the best, while being a great glue Pokemon and pivot in general.

Shuckle stays in C+ because Sticky Web is just not that impactfull in OU and is very match-up reliant, not to mention that Shuckle's hazards are not that hard to get rid of, and Sand Rush Excadrill still outspeeds everything unscarfed outside of Deo-S even after the Webs Speed drop. It has a niche, but that niche isn't that good and in some games useless.

Toxicroak drops in C- because it's 100% hard walled by Aegislash and has a ton of competition with any priority-wielding physical sweeper, such as Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Talonflame, Bisharp, and even Lucario. Toxicroak has very few saving graces, namely ability to check a few dangerous threats (Keldeo, Terrakion, Clefable) and Drain Punch's healing + Toxic immunity + ability to beat Clefable, which makes it a decent stallbreaker.

Heatran stays in A because there have been good arguments about it both staying and rising, so i want to see more discussion about it.

Latias rises to A because Healing Wish and extra bulk matter.

Volcarona drops to C+ because it's a pretty bad and situational sweeper in OU, with checks and revenge killers being everywhere, namely Talonflame, Mega Zard X, Azumarill, Gyarados, Keldeo, Dragonite, Garchomp, Terrakion, Heatran, and Chansey, and most priority users with strong neutral STAB priority moves. Dat 4x SR weakness too.

Infernape in C+ because check the post above.

 

[Jukain]

Hippowdon is really good and could be worth putting in A+ now. Hippowdon can be used on so many playstyles. It's solid on balance, it's solid on stall, and it's even good on certain offensive teams, especially in conjunction with Sand Rush Exca. It just provides so much for a team as a reliable SR setter and handling a multitude of common threats, including Mega Charizard X, Aegislash, and SR Excadrill with just sheer bulk. You can customize it EV spread-wise, too, like you can run the standard 252/116+/140 for a nice balance of Aegi and physical mons check (espec Pinsir, this is the min bulk you need to be able to survive it), or 252/72+/184 which more solidly tanks Aegi while still having enough bulk to tank many physical attackers, 252/252+/0 if you really need the physical bulk for stuff, WW lets you phaze and you can run Rock Slide if you're Pinsir weak or Toxic so many other switch-ins, all of which are really strong options that don't detract from Hippowdon's abilities on the whole. It's worth noting that Hippo has a few issues; it can be worn down and it's rather passive because it can't really do much in terms of damage, especially to things not weak to EQ. Whether these are enough to drop it from A+ is debatable, but they are definitely issues that exist.

alexwolf get Azu (at least non-CB), Keldeo, and Terrakion off that list. QD / Fire Blast / Bug Buzz / Giga Drain is by far the best set, if you're talking about bulky QD variants they're total ass. In any case I don't really agree with dropping Volc out of B-, it's still a threat and a hell of a lot better than everything in C+. That's the same rank as Smeargle, Sharpedo, Mega Aggron, Starmie, Thund-T, and Mega Blastoise...lol. I can go through all of these things and analyze but I really think it's obvious that Volcarona is a hell of a lot more viable than these garbage Pokemon. Shouldn't have moved down in the first place.

 

[Jaiho]

CB is kind of a bad set IMO because Infernape really needs to switch moves. For the mixed set, specially defensive Clefable can give Infernape troubles, and bulky d-Nite (giving credit to Monte Cristo) but that's about it. He beats the rest of stall, even being able to 2HKO mega Venusaur after SR with 88 Sp.A EV's and Fire Blast. Send Infernape to B-. He's way better than the Pokemon in C and C+ and his niche is way more clear and notable IMO.

Just saying, he is not the one who came up with it. It is called CBBnite for a reason ._.

 

[QuickBH]

Just saying, he is not the one who came up with it. It is called CBBnite for a reason ._.

mb sir, I will change that. He was simply the only person who I've seen use Dragonite in a stall team as of yet. I apologize.

 

[Tyrant laharl]

if being

Double post because it's time for an update:

Rotom-W: A- ---> A
Shuckle: Stays in C+
Toxicroak: C ---> C-
Heatran: Stays in A
Latias: A- ---> A
Volcarona: B- ---> C+
Infernape: Stays in C+

Rotom-W gets a promotion because it's a great Sand Rush Excadrill check, something every offensive team needs. This alone is a good enough reason to promote it as offensive teams don't have many ways to check Sand Rush EDxca, and Rotom-W is one of the best, while being a great glue Pokemon and pivot in general.

Shuckle stays in C+ because Sticky Web is just not that impactfull in OU and is very match-up reliant, not to mention that Shuckle's hazards are not that hard to get rid of, and Sand Rush Excadrill still outspeeds everything unscarfed outside of Deo-S even after the Webs Speed drop. It has a niche, but that niche isn't that good and in some games useless.

Toxicroak drops in C- because it's 100% hard walled by Aegislash and has a ton of competition with any priority-wielding physical sweeper, such as Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Talonflame, Bisharp, and even Lucario. Toxicroak has very few saving graces, namely ability to check a few dangerous threats (Keldeo, Terrakion, Clefable) and Drain Punch's healing + Toxic immunity + ability to beat Clefable, which makes it a decent stallbreaker.

Heatran stays in A because there have been good arguments about it both staying and rising, so i want to see more discussion about it.

Latias rises to A because Healing Wish and extra bulk matter.

Volcarona drops to C+ because it's a pretty bad and situational sweeper in OU, with checks and revenge killers being everywhere, namely Talonflame, Mega Zard X, Azumarill, Gyarados, Keldeo, Dragonite, Garchomp, Terrakion, Heatran, and Chansey, and most priority users with strong neutral STAB priority moves. Dat 4x SR weakness too.

Infernape in C+ because check the post above.

if being a sand rush check is enough to get a promotion in its own for rotom do you think breloom is deserving of promotion to a rank as well?

 

[alexwolf]

Hippowdon is really good and is probably worth putting in A+ now. Hippowdon can be used on so many playstyles. It's solid on balance, it's solid on stall, and it's even good on certain offensive teams, especially in conjunction with Sand Rush Exca. It just provides so much for a team as a reliable SR setter and handling a multitude of common threats, including Mega Charizard X, Aegislash, and SR Excadrill with just sheer bulk. You can customize it EV spread-wise, too, like you can run the standard 252/116+/140 for a nice balance of Aegi and physical mons check (espec Pinsir, this is the min bulk you need to be able to survive it), or 252/72+/184 which more solidly tanks Aegi while still having enough bulk to tank many physical attackers, 252/252+/0 if you really need the physical bulk for stuff, WW lets you phaze and you can run Rock Slide if you're Pinsir weak or Toxic so many other switch-ins, all of which are really strong options that don't detract from Hippowdon's abilities on the whole. Hippo is a bulky stalwart worthy of an A+ ranking.

alexwolf get Azu (at least non-CB), Keldeo, and Terrakion off that list. QD / Fire Blast / Bug Buzz / Giga Drain is by far the best set, if you're talking about bulky QD variants they're total ass. In any case I don't really agree with dropping Volc out of B-, it's still a threat and a hell of a lot better than everything in C+. That's the same rank as Smeargle, Sharpedo, Mega Aggron, Starmie, Thund-T, and Mega Blastoise...lol. I can go through all of these things and analyze but I really think it's obvious that Volcarona is a hell of a lot more viable than these garbage Pokemon. Shouldn't have moved down in the first place.

CB and AV Azumarill can both easily take any attack from Volcarona and OHKO with Aqua Jet and Waterfall respectively even against Giga Drain variants. BD sets can still revenge kill Volcarona easily, doing 73% damage minimum to offensive sets with Adamant Aqua Jet and easily switching into Volcarona's STABs if the need arises. So every single set can check Volcarona no matter what.

Scarf Terrakion also checks any Volcarona set, which is one of Terrakion's best sets, or with sand support which enables it to tank even +1 Giga Drain.

You are right about Keldeo though.

Anyway, Volcarona is definitely in the same level of ''shityness'' as the other Pokemon you mentioned, or just not that good as other legit Pokemon such as Mega Amphy, Mega Zam, and Staraptor. Mega Aggron can serve as a great physical tank to check almost every single physical threat, which is great if your team can keep up a fast pace so that Mega Aggron doesn't get overwhelmed, or just with Wish support. Starmie is a very viable alternative on offensive teams that like SR off but want their hazards to stay up too, such as Deo-D teams with SR weak Pokemon, and is very reliable at spinning, especially when paired with Pursuit Bisharp, a staple on any kind of Deo-D offense team. I could go on about most ''good'' Pokemon in C+ rank but you get the point, Volcarona is definitely closer to those Pokemon in terms of viability, than to the Pokemon in B-. 4x SR weakness and needing a fuckton of Pokemon removed in order to even attempt a sweep is huge support for such a situational sweeper, at this point you could just be using a better sweeper altogether.

if being
if being a sand rush check is enough to get a promotion in its own for rotom do you think breloom is deserving of promotion to a rank as well?

Breloom, unlike Rotom-W, gets 2HKOed by any of LO Exca's STABs, meaning it can only check Excadrill once. You are better off keeping Breloom safe and sac something in order to revenge kill it or just force it out and make sure you don't let it come in for free again.

 

[Valmanway]

I'm still learning about competitive and I saw here, http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-current-smogon-tier-lists.3504634/, that Politoed isn't OU...
So why is politoed in this list?

Hi there, welcome to Smogon! The reason why Politoed is ranked here is because he has a role to play in Overused. Just because a Pokemon is in a lower tier doesn't necessarily mean that they have no use in upper tiers. A great example would be Hippowdon, who's Underused, and yet is A rank. That's because his physical bulk is still an extremely valuable asset to teams. So in Politoed's case, he's B+ because of his access to Drizzle merits usage in OU, as it powers up Pokemon such as Keldeo and Mega Gyarados, and also allows Swift Swim sweepers such as Kabutops and Kingdra to outrun pretty much everything in the game and utilize powered up Water-type STAB. He's not exactly a top tier threat, but he more than certainly has a use in OU.