Why is this an argument against moving Espeon up? It only shows that Espeon is even more valuable to its respective team than Politoed.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
- Status
Sorry, I'm a bit confused. If you're forced to run something if you want to play a dominant playstyle, doesn't that mean its effect on the metagame is greater than that of something you aren't forced to run? Rain teams are basically forced to run Politoed, but aren't forced to run Ampharos. Even though Ampharos is a better stand alone Pokemon than Politoed, it's still ranked lower because its support isn't necessary, while Politoed's is. Espeon's support is necessary on BP teams, and BP teams unfortunately are more effective than Rain teams. While they are obviously shameful to use, just going by that isn't right. Compare andEspeon to Politoed; I think they all are very similar.
Merci beaucoup!
That is an argument against Espeon because BP teams could be more unpredictable if there were more Magic Bouncers with access to Baton Pass. Rain teams aren't forced to run Politoed. They can use something such as Damp Rock Azelf to set up Rain Dance and then either explode or maybe set up SR too. Prankster Thundurus can also set up Rain Dance and even abuse rain to some extent with Thunder. Sure, you need to put Rain Dance on one more Pokemon (maybe even two), but I don't think that's enough to render said teams completely inferior to those carrying Politoed.
The same can't be said about BP teams. They are insanely predictable. You KNOW they are gonna carry Deoxys-S, Scolipede, Smeargle and Espeon, and a mini-chain like this is much easier to stop than full BP chains.
The same can't be said about BP teams. They are insanely predictable. You KNOW they are gonna carry Deoxys-S, Scolipede, Smeargle and Espeon, and a mini-chain like this is much easier to stop than full BP chains.
Last edited:
BP is still viable in tournaments. It doesn't matter if they're good if they aren't prepared for it. And the majority aren't. Tour matches have been won with it. It's just that few people actually use it in tours, because it's frowned upon.
No, because Trick Room teams are subpar and only somewhat viable. BP teams are strong, because although they are pretty match-up dependent, most cannot bother to prepare for it. Also, Hail teams aren't even viable. And DragMag sucks too. The others are low, because they aren't good. This isn't the case for BP, so Scolipede and Espeon should be moved up.
P.S. Some of these arguments that people are using are as bad as the following: Deoxys-D is only good on HO and needs Bisharp or Thundurus-i for Defiant users to be effective - Deoxys-D for B.
Last edited:
Espeon and Scolipede belong in the high B or low A range. It doesn't matter whether people think Baton Pass is stupid, cheap, shameful, retarded, etc. The purpose of these viability rankings is to tell people which Pokemon win games and there is no doubt that Baton Passers do that. If there are more changes to BP in the future, the rankings can be adjusted, but for now we have to be unbiased about these rankings and rank Espeon and Scolipede and maybe Smeargle based on how good they are currently in OU.
Only problem with that is that Scolipede is also one of the best QuickPassers out there, with access to Swords Dance and Speed Boost to turn monsters such as Kyurem-B into unimaginable forces. Scolipede can even run a Life Orb set and act as a nice late-game sweeper, something Espeon dreams of doing.
Espeon is only viable when paired with Scolipede on Baton Pass chains, and that's why I think it should stay where it is right now.
It isn't a counter, but it forces the opponent into a 50/50 of Hidden Power or Thunderbolt. If you use HP Ice and Kabutops/Kingdra/other stays in, then you're practically left at <10 HP whereas if you Thunderbolt and the opponent switches into Thundurus-T, which could be a bit weakened from early game, then you've just restored a quarter of your opponent's health. IMO it's kind of like Bisharp vs. Latios because it forces the Latios player to make the riskier play of the two. Thundurus-T, if running Nasty Plot only, is also a stallbreaker whereas if it's running Double Dance and it gets a free turn or two then it will be hard to take down. It's probably just about as viable as something like Zygarde or Haxorus, as if they get a free turn or are able to pivot into an attack, then they could easily be threatening, but otherwise they can only function as stallbreakers.
Also Mega Manectric and Raikou are 3HKOed by most powerful Electric-type moves (Raikou is 4HKOed by a few of them though) and cannot 2HKO or OHKO back.
Also if anything Scolipede is only viable with Espeon because otherwise its boosts just go to waste and there are other speed and defense passers out there.
Last edited:
No, you need Politoed. Manual Rain Dance is just not as good, at all. Drizzle doesn't waste a turn, and with Drizzle you actually stand a chance against teams that use an opposing weather setter.
I'm going to throw in my hat for Espeon at A. Baton Pass teams, when played by a competent player, are pretty broken, and Espeon is the very reason they are that way. I don't think it's quite Deoxy-D levels of viability, as it also needs Scolipede to work, but it is the center of a very effective playstyle, and as that, should be A rank.
Hmm... Seems it's quite a heated discussion, so I'll be giving my input.
Espeon (C-) -> C+/B- | I'm not TOO optimistic, but since Espeon's still a part of this playstyle and I see all the points for and against moving it up, I'm gonna take a middle ground here and advocate for C+/B-, either of these; doesn't matter which. It's certainly a useful Pokémon in BP chains, but B+ and especially A are extreme exaggerations. It's not good outside of BP teams, but shines in them, so I'm gonna be neutral. Espeon for C+/B-.
Weavile (B-) -> B+ | I completely agree with this move. Weavile poses some major advantages in today's OU metagame in the form of being one of the fastest users of Knock Off in the tier with a great complementary Ice-type STAB and even STAB priority that fucks many things over. 125 Speed is brilliant for an attacker like Weaves and backed up by 120 Attack, that's just bound to hurt. It's even got Poison Jab if Fairies are big trouble to some players. Not all's well for the weasel, as with 70 HP and 65 Defense, it can't take the myriad of physical priority moves in the tier, mainly Aqua Jet, Brave Bird and Quick Attack. That aside, Weavile is an amazingly lethal physical sweeper that should definitely not be underestimated. Weavile for B+.
Scolipede (B+) -> A- | Reiterating a previous post of mine.
Okay, let me reiterate why I'm against Espeon moving up:
It is a terrible pokemon, even in a BP team. Espeon is the Achilles Heel in the 6 man BP Team (at least, after 6BP started running Zapdos over Mr. Mime) and ties with Smeargle as the biggest defensive liability on the BP team. Part of the reason why people said "BP can only make mistakes in the first 5 turns" is because the main goal of BP at the start of a match is to pass resilience to Espeon (via Iron Defense, Speed Boost, and a Sub) and the moment that something disrupts that game plan and Espeon comes in with little-to-no resilience, it's going to die, and then BP's got a massive gaping weakness to Status Moves (including Phazing moves).
Now that it's 3BP, it's even worse. There was a chance before in 6BP that losing Espeon wasn't the end of your game, but under 3BP, losing Espeon is death. Again, this is not a sign that Espeon is good.
Espeon is not a bad mon that becomes amazing on the right kind of team. It is a terrible mon that is run on a good team in spite of it being terrible. If Espeon was even a mediocre pokemon, we wouldn't have had multiple extended debates on whether BP should get nerfed or not - we would've quickly come to a consensus to ban that shit as decisively as possible. There would have been no talk about "collateral damage" and "mindlessness" and "legitimate strategies" if Espeon wasn't such a shitty mon that people actually sorta felt bad for BP teams for being forced to run it.
It is a terrible pokemon, even in a BP team. Espeon is the Achilles Heel in the 6 man BP Team (at least, after 6BP started running Zapdos over Mr. Mime) and ties with Smeargle as the biggest defensive liability on the BP team. Part of the reason why people said "BP can only make mistakes in the first 5 turns" is because the main goal of BP at the start of a match is to pass resilience to Espeon (via Iron Defense, Speed Boost, and a Sub) and the moment that something disrupts that game plan and Espeon comes in with little-to-no resilience, it's going to die, and then BP's got a massive gaping weakness to Status Moves (including Phazing moves).
Now that it's 3BP, it's even worse. There was a chance before in 6BP that losing Espeon wasn't the end of your game, but under 3BP, losing Espeon is death. Again, this is not a sign that Espeon is good.
Espeon is not a bad mon that becomes amazing on the right kind of team. It is a terrible mon that is run on a good team in spite of it being terrible. If Espeon was even a mediocre pokemon, we wouldn't have had multiple extended debates on whether BP should get nerfed or not - we would've quickly come to a consensus to ban that shit as decisively as possible. There would have been no talk about "collateral damage" and "mindlessness" and "legitimate strategies" if Espeon wasn't such a shitty mon that people actually sorta felt bad for BP teams for being forced to run it.
Last edited:
Jesus did you get shat on by an Espeon as a child or something? You seem to have a massive hateboner for this thing.
So you're telling me that a pokemon that is so important that losing it in the match means you lose is bad? How is that bad? That just means it's THAT much more important. Now, if Baton Pass was a really shitty playstyle, that would be one thing, but it's one of the most broken playstyles out there when used by a good player.
Yeah, just like how Politoed is a really shitty pokemon that rain teams are forced to run, yet it's B+ because it's effective in it's playstyle. Or like how Deoxy-D is shit outside of hyper offense, yet it's S rank (ok, maybe not as shit as Politoed, but it wouldn't be S rank).
Viability is more than just raw stats, it's about how a pokemon finds it's niche in the metagame, and Espeon right now has a major niche.
That is untrue. Mega Absol can always replace Espeon, since it provides nice resistances to Knock Off and Sucker Punch. Baton Pass teams would give themselves a leg and an arm to use another Magic Bounce user that doesn't have to mega-evolve. Xatu would completely outclass Espeon if Magic Bounce+Baton Pass was legal on the bird. And any playstyle can be broken when used by a good player. Espeon has no reason to be used on anything BUT 3BP playstyles.
I fail to see how is Espeon's niche so big. I mean, maybe, just maybe a push to C would be fine, but honestly by that logic we should move Mega Obamasnow and Slowking up, and please don't bring up this: "BUT BATON PASS IS BETTER THAN HAIL AND TRICK ROOM HURR DURR".
If anything I even think Espeon should stay at C-/C and become a "conclusion reached Pokemon".
Last edited:
Hail and Trick Room didn't warrant a suspect test and didn't continue to be really OP after the nerf that they didn't get.
Actually Espeon is one of my favorite pokemon, but I'm not letting that bias my assessment of how viable it is.
It's actually interesting you bring up a comparison to Politoed, because it is very unfair to GenVI Toed to compare it to Espeon. Losing Politoed doesn't doom the rest of his team to failure, and Toed fills a nice niche as a support mon in GenVI. Espeon previously got a pass because "BP isn't a team of 6 mons, it's actually one mon divided over 6 bodies" but now that that's no longer the case, we have to carefully assess its strengths and weaknesses individually, and Espeon is really really lacking, not just thanks to raw stats, but also because of typing, and by how much support it needs to fill its role.
The best comparison for Espeon is actually Gen V Ninetales - the worst of the weather starters (barring Abomasnow), and easily the worst mon on a Sun Team. It's maddening how much support Ninetales needs to actually function as a support mon in Gen V, and even then I ran Sunny Day as back-up on at least one other mon in case Tales fucked up and got trapped by Tyranitar or something.
So yeah, maybe if 3BP was the best team archetype in OU right now, I'd accept raising Espeon's viability as being the worst mon on the best team still counts as something (see: Mr. Mime). But 3BP's effectiveness is currently being debated on, and Espeon is just too much of a liability in the playstyle right now.
Mega Absol does not get Stored Power and does not get Magic Bounce until it Mega Evolves. That means you can't use an even better Mega on a 3 BP chain team.
Mr Mime was the worst on a 6 man BP team and was able to be replaced because it's niche on the team was small. You could not replace Espeon with Zapdos.
If Espeon is going to sit at a ranking so close to being unranked just because people consider it the "weakest member on the team" on such a strong playstyle then some pokemon currently ranked not only need their ranks dropped but some need to be outright removed from the ranks period.
Mr Mime was the worst on a 6 man BP team and was able to be replaced because it's niche on the team was small. You could not replace Espeon with Zapdos.
If Espeon is going to sit at a ranking so close to being unranked just because people consider it the "weakest member on the team" on such a strong playstyle then some pokemon currently ranked not only need their ranks dropped but some need to be outright removed from the ranks period.
When C05ta had 3 out of the top 5 spots on the BW2 ladder did we raise all the Pokemon on his team to S rank? No that would have been retarded. I get that people have this huge raging hard on for Denis but honestly he's just a dude who really likes annoying people.
Baton Pass isn't "still viable despite the nerf," it just didn't actually get nerfed. People (myself included for most of the suspect test), didn't even consider the fact that the Baton Pass team didn't need most of its team members and that they could be replaced by just about any Pokemon that could deal with the threats to BP. Right now, what you guys are hailing as "the best playstyle in OU" is legit just dual screens smash pass. It's really funny actually how people get so caught up in the fact that Denis is sweeping teams with a shit Pokemon that they believe that Pokemon or the playstyle is "good." But the truth is that it's simply more of the same bullshit matchup garbage (that and the real broken threat in his team is Deoxys-S but whatever). Seriously, play any dual screens team and it'll beat you just as easily as Denis's team could. Just because he happens to use a BP core instead of a more common setup sweeper doesn't mean that his team or it's members are top tier. And if you don't believe me, I invite you BP enthusiasts to battle any of the people in the Battle of the Week nominations list to prove it n_n
Baton Pass isn't "still viable despite the nerf," it just didn't actually get nerfed. People (myself included for most of the suspect test), didn't even consider the fact that the Baton Pass team didn't need most of its team members and that they could be replaced by just about any Pokemon that could deal with the threats to BP. Right now, what you guys are hailing as "the best playstyle in OU" is legit just dual screens smash pass. It's really funny actually how people get so caught up in the fact that Denis is sweeping teams with a shit Pokemon that they believe that Pokemon or the playstyle is "good." But the truth is that it's simply more of the same bullshit matchup garbage (that and the real broken threat in his team is Deoxys-S but whatever). Seriously, play any dual screens team and it'll beat you just as easily as Denis's team could. Just because he happens to use a BP core instead of a more common setup sweeper doesn't mean that his team or it's members are top tier. And if you don't believe me, I invite you BP enthusiasts to battle any of the people in the Battle of the Week nominations list to prove it n_n
I'm probably not the best person to debate this so excuse me if my point doesn't get across.
if we are hailing baton pass as the best playstyle in Ou and its actually just dual screens smash pass, I don't see how that makes any difference what we call it tbh. Its one of the most succesfull albeit broken playstyles and it should be ranked accordingly smash pass or baton pass. I don't have a "raging boner" for Dennis nor espeon but I feel that if I'm getting dominated by a playstyle even with counters on it on my team it should be ranked accordingly so.
Because it has nothing to do with the BP core, that's my point. That team is successful because of Screens, not Espeon, not Scolipede, it's all Deoxys (and Klefki if Deo were to get banned). So no I will not support raising Espeon based on the brokenness of a playstyle that it doesn't even have to be a part of to be "broken."
I nominate Politoed for C- rank:
-Politoed sucks outside of his rain playstyle and would be a NU mon if he had no Drizzle or a BL mon if something decent (like even lolMilotic) had got the ability.
-Politoed is the weak link of rain and if it didn't had to run this crappy frog it would be much better.
-You have to use (Mega) Abomasnow and Ninetales to have both hail and sun but it still doesn't mean they should be ranked high because they are bad mons themselves just like Politoed, and don't come here and say "HURR DURR rain is better than sun/hail" because it doesn't change the fact that Politoed sucks.
-I have a personal bias against this toad because it made the gen V meta very bad.
So those are my reasons what do you guys think, should we drop him?
-Politoed sucks outside of his rain playstyle and would be a NU mon if he had no Drizzle or a BL mon if something decent (like even lolMilotic) had got the ability.
-Politoed is the weak link of rain and if it didn't had to run this crappy frog it would be much better.
-You have to use (Mega) Abomasnow and Ninetales to have both hail and sun but it still doesn't mean they should be ranked high because they are bad mons themselves just like Politoed, and don't come here and say "HURR DURR rain is better than sun/hail" because it doesn't change the fact that Politoed sucks.
-I have a personal bias against this toad because it made the gen V meta very bad.
So those are my reasons what do you guys think, should we drop him?
Well,I feel he is perfect in B,as it does support rain quite well
Actually, yeah, it kind of does. Politoed is pretty much necessary to run rain, a very viable strategy. Hail, on the other hand, is actually completely unviable, and thus should never be discussed as a reason to rank Mega Abomasnow. Sun teams also prefer Mega Charizard Y to Ninetales, despite the loss of 3 turns of sun, and are less viable than rain. The fact that Politoed is required on a very viable type of team is a reason to rank it higher.
- This argument is bullshit. Aegislash wouldn't be good without Stance Change, Azumarill wouldn't be good without Huge Power, Diggersby wouldn't be good without Huge Power, does this make these Pokemon any worse? No it doesn't. Saying a Pokemon isn't good without this or that isn't really an argument against it.
- I can agree with this point Politoed is most likely the weaker link of the team. However the team wouldn't function as well without Politoed because of the fantastic support it brings. Ninetales was also awful last generation but the support it gave to the team made it viable.
- But rain is better than hail and sun and you can't deny it. Again Politoed on itself isn't the greatest but it is the support it gives that makes him viable.
- Gen 5 > gen 6
Honestly I think Politoed should stay B because the support it gives is crazy good and rain teams wouldn't be as good without him (Although I have seen some rain teams without Politoed).
EDIT: Lol I can't understand sarcasm.
Last edited:
Halcyon. , we get it; you don't like Baton Pass. Like I said before, that doesn't matter for these viability rankings. I don't like Deo-Sharp teams, but Deoxys-D sure as hell deserves to be S rank as long as it is in OU.
Dual Screens Smash Pass is not as good as what Denis has going because it is easier to disrupt. Smash Pass is more vulnerable to phazing, Unaware, and priority than Denis's team. Also, the idea that Dual Screens makes Denis's team broken is nonsense. There are probably a ton of Dual Screeners which Denis could use if we banned the screeners. Klefki, Lati@s, and Cresselia are lined up in case Deoxys-S goes down. Espeon's role is irreplaceable on a Baton Pass team because it would otherwise be vulnerable to Taunt, Encore, Leech Seed, and phazing before Ingrain can be set up.
Oh, and guys, the Politoed post by Mikasa was a joke to show how dumb some of the arguments against raising Espeon are. Politoed is absolutely vital to rain which is a good playstyle just like Espeon is absolutely vital to Baton Pass which is a good playstyle. They both deserve to be B+ or A- rank.
Dual Screens Smash Pass is not as good as what Denis has going because it is easier to disrupt. Smash Pass is more vulnerable to phazing, Unaware, and priority than Denis's team. Also, the idea that Dual Screens makes Denis's team broken is nonsense. There are probably a ton of Dual Screeners which Denis could use if we banned the screeners. Klefki, Lati@s, and Cresselia are lined up in case Deoxys-S goes down. Espeon's role is irreplaceable on a Baton Pass team because it would otherwise be vulnerable to Taunt, Encore, Leech Seed, and phazing before Ingrain can be set up.
Oh, and guys, the Politoed post by Mikasa was a joke to show how dumb some of the arguments against raising Espeon are. Politoed is absolutely vital to rain which is a good playstyle just like Espeon is absolutely vital to Baton Pass which is a good playstyle. They both deserve to be B+ or A- rank.
- Status