I don't know man... This meta isn't really close to good for sub roost kyurem. Right now we are in the age of sand offense, and sand offense just shits all over kyurem. Between gardevoir breloom ttar and drill I don't see how its setting up to easily. Doesn't help that very common pokes don't mind kyurem badly, such as Av mawile and mega scizor. I'm not really a person for seeing mons being needlessly ranked, and personally I don't see things like reuniclus and kyurem doing anything in the meta that's revolutionary
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
- Status
Alrighty then
So i recommend shuckle for B-/B. With deo-d(likely)getting the boot around the next update, shuckle is THE perfect mon to fill in its shoes. it has sticky web, stealth rock, encore, and knock off at its disposal. 20/230/230 defenses are better than 50/160/160.(252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shuckle: 64-75 (26.2 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO, 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D: 86-101 (28.2 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO). on a sticky web team, it enables mons like aegislash, m-heracross, bisharp, kyurem-b, and diggersby to go crazy on the opposing side. the combination of mental herb+sturdy guarantees that it will lay at least sticky web, while its bulk could easily let it lay more. it can allow mons like SD zard x and CM mega garde to completely dismantle opposing teams. it is the perfect replacement for deo-d, and it alone enables an entire team archetype to succeed.
So i recommend shuckle for B-/B. With deo-d(likely)getting the boot around the next update, shuckle is THE perfect mon to fill in its shoes. it has sticky web, stealth rock, encore, and knock off at its disposal. 20/230/230 defenses are better than 50/160/160.(252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shuckle: 64-75 (26.2 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO, 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D: 86-101 (28.2 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO). on a sticky web team, it enables mons like aegislash, m-heracross, bisharp, kyurem-b, and diggersby to go crazy on the opposing side. the combination of mental herb+sturdy guarantees that it will lay at least sticky web, while its bulk could easily let it lay more. it can allow mons like SD zard x and CM mega garde to completely dismantle opposing teams. it is the perfect replacement for deo-d, and it alone enables an entire team archetype to succeed.
I'm not seeing why Dragalge should be added to the rankings. I've built tons of teams this gen and I have not once considered to use Dragalge. What exactly is its niche? A rain abuser? There's already Mega Ampharos, Dragonite, Kabutops, Kingdra, Dragonite, Keldeo, Thundurus-I, Thundurus-T, Tornadus-I, and Tornadus-T. That's a lot of competition to have to beat out to make a team. It's not really beating out many if any of the ones I listed, so why does it deserve being ranked if its main niche is highly contested as it is and doesn't even give any of the others competition?
Like previously mentioned Dragalge has limited utility, there is no reason to use it over the other Pokemon that I've mentioned, and like you mentioned needs a decent amount of support. Why does this deserve being ranked then? You've stated yourself reasons why it shouldn't be ranked yet you are advocating it being ranked. Stall teams nowadays don't utilize hazards barring SR, so Dragalge setting them up is a bit of waste considering they are going to be cleared by either yourself or the opponent.
Dragalge is not going to be ranked. There is little to no reason to use over other Pokemon. Stop discussing it. Move on from this. Thanks.
Like previously mentioned Dragalge has limited utility, there is no reason to use it over the other Pokemon that I've mentioned, and like you mentioned needs a decent amount of support. Why does this deserve being ranked then? You've stated yourself reasons why it shouldn't be ranked yet you are advocating it being ranked. Stall teams nowadays don't utilize hazards barring SR, so Dragalge setting them up is a bit of waste considering they are going to be cleared by either yourself or the opponent.
Dragalge is not going to be ranked. There is little to no reason to use over other Pokemon. Stop discussing it. Move on from this. Thanks.
Incorrect, Mirror Mola is another possibility for Anti-aegi clerics. It's really tough to play, too... You have to decide if you can attack the incoming wish switch in with shadowball or if you're about to get hammered by a mirror coat... Which did roughly 80% iirc.
One of the old adages about clerics is it is really easy to predict that wish switch... With special attackers vs Mola, this isn't so true.
Nominating Noivern as C Class.(Seeing as it is not done so already on the front page)
Noivern with it's access to flamethrower, draco meteor , dark pulse and air slash is a great coverage in a team. Not to mention its really fast speed. There are of course, many limitations to Noivern, such as Sp.D Walls and Ice Shard.
Noivern with it's access to flamethrower, draco meteor , dark pulse and air slash is a great coverage in a team. Not to mention its really fast speed. There are of course, many limitations to Noivern, such as Sp.D Walls and Ice Shard.
Dragalge is essentially a poor man's Goodra. Goodra is everything Dragalge is but better. It hits harder, has even more special bulk than Dragalge, and has two useful abilities in Sap Sipper and Gooey. Goodra can also roast Aegislash with Fire Blast which is nice. If you're looking for a Dragon with great special bulk that can check some of OU's top special attackers, just use Goodra or the Latis, they'll give you much more milage; the Latis can also provide Defog support and hit harder, while Latias has Healing Wish which is great.
Noivern serves little to no purpose in OU right now. It is rather weak and is outclassed by almost every Dragon available in OU. It has sick Speed, but that's about it. It doesn't have the raw power of Garchomp or Latios (or the decent but niche Haxorus), the sweeping capabilities of Dragonite or Mega Charizard X, or the bulk of Latias, Dragonite, or Goodra. Noivern does not hit that hard and struggles to find reason to be used over any Dragon-type available. It's also rather easy to deal with, and as a fast special attacker you could very well be using something else, like Latios, Greninja, or Thundurus. There is simply no reason to use Noivern.
I'll post later about something relevant but I wanted to refute some of these posts here.
Noivern serves little to no purpose in OU right now. It is rather weak and is outclassed by almost every Dragon available in OU. It has sick Speed, but that's about it. It doesn't have the raw power of Garchomp or Latios (or the decent but niche Haxorus), the sweeping capabilities of Dragonite or Mega Charizard X, or the bulk of Latias, Dragonite, or Goodra. Noivern does not hit that hard and struggles to find reason to be used over any Dragon-type available. It's also rather easy to deal with, and as a fast special attacker you could very well be using something else, like Latios, Greninja, or Thundurus. There is simply no reason to use Noivern.
I'll post later about something relevant but I wanted to refute some of these posts here.
Well Dragalge has shadow Ball and a neutrality to fairy and deters fairy types which is enough to differentiate it from goodra imo. It also has haze to stop set up sweepers which goodra can't really to an extent. Poison point isn't as good but is decent for spreading status. What is goodra rank anyway again?
I mean, to be honest tho, one of the biggest reasons to even use goodra is because of sap sipper. With this, (and a few evs in defense (max hp is standard)) you can take on more or less anything breloom wants to throw at you. You lose against venu, but you win against basically any other grass type 1v1 in the tier, and that's pretty nice for teams that don't like them, like rain. On the other hand, Dragalge simply gets spored and crippled.
The ability to also take on double genies (without fearing knock off like lati@s has to) is also pretty nice, and dragalge can't handle landorus.
I'd never use gooey considering how easy it is for bisharp to just come in, kill you from 60% (around there) with a clean knock off and just earn an easy +2 from the speed drop.
EDIT: 555th message :o
EDIT 2:
Roserade is the only real offensive spiker in the tier (deoxys is leaving). I don't see how you can really compare it with chesnaught, they work totally differently. Chesnaught sets spikes when it forces switches from its bulk, and Roserade sets spikes right after it has put something to sleep or can kill the current pokemon. Chesnaught doesn't even run Spikes that much anymore, because people want to make room for more important moves like eq, hammer arm, leech seed and spiky shield (<--- most used set right there, eq needed to beat sub toxic aegislash) Roserade is a mon purely for setting spikes, and its the only mon that does it while maintaining some offensive presence (diggersby has better things to do)
Also, mega venusaur doesn't have access to a 90 base power hp fire like roserade does >_>
Roserade combines all the roles that these pokemon separately can't perform, i don't see whats wrong with that.
The ability to also take on double genies (without fearing knock off like lati@s has to) is also pretty nice, and dragalge can't handle landorus.
I'd never use gooey considering how easy it is for bisharp to just come in, kill you from 60% (around there) with a clean knock off and just earn an easy +2 from the speed drop.
EDIT: 555th message :o
EDIT 2:
Roserade is the only real offensive spiker in the tier (deoxys is leaving). I don't see how you can really compare it with chesnaught, they work totally differently. Chesnaught sets spikes when it forces switches from its bulk, and Roserade sets spikes right after it has put something to sleep or can kill the current pokemon. Chesnaught doesn't even run Spikes that much anymore, because people want to make room for more important moves like eq, hammer arm, leech seed and spiky shield (<--- most used set right there, eq needed to beat sub toxic aegislash) Roserade is a mon purely for setting spikes, and its the only mon that does it while maintaining some offensive presence (diggersby has better things to do)
Also, mega venusaur doesn't have access to a 90 base power hp fire like roserade does >_>
Roserade combines all the roles that these pokemon separately can't perform, i don't see whats wrong with that.
Last edited:
I'm going to voice my support to move Roserade to Unranked. Seriously, what does it even do? I don't know if anyone recalls, but I made a post like 70 pages back about why it should move to C- / D, and now it just needs to be removed. It's outclassed w/ Spikes by Chesnaught, as already mentioned, and all it has over it is Sleep Powder, which isn't even that amazing when you have Breloom to abuse Spore. Sure, it has this combination, that's cool, but it's wayyy too niche. Any other offensive set is outclassed entirely by Mega Venusaur, it's just a really bad Grass-type. I definitely think it needs to be removed right away.
Clerics need to have Aromatherapy / Heall Bell, which Mola doesn't have.
IIRC, there was an offensive Technician set with Spikes, and it had better speed then both MVenu or Chesnaught, but other than that it is pretty outclassed unless it is running Spikes+3 Attacks. It also has Toxic Spikes, Aromatherapy and Sleep Powder, so it could put the opponent to sleep and then start setting up Hazards, but yeah, it is pretty outclassed by the other two. But I personally think moving it to unranked is a bit too much, as it can attempt to do a combination of what Chesnaught and Mvenu can do, while suffering from 4MSS, it still has that very small niche.
Mega Tyranitar A+ ----> S Rank
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
I'm suggesting Mega Tyranitar for S rank because it has few counters and it has viable ways to get around them (unless they're scarfed or sashed but the same goes for Charizard X who is also in S rank).
Tyranitar @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
This is the most common Tyranitar set. Most people run jolly nature but adamant is still viable. There are a few options for the last 2 slots in bold to help it get around some checks and counters. Ice Punch is there for Landorus-T and Gliscor while Earthquake is there for Aegislash to avoid King's Shield games.
It's good because of it's great bulk, typing and attack stat. Kind of has 4MSS but can be paired well with Deo-S (so can everything lol) to cover the pokemon that it can't beat itself.
(These are the checks and counters from the Victim Of The Week project in the OU forums)
Diggersby
It isn't guaranteed that Tyranitar will have no boosts when Diggersby is brought in but in case it comes in safely:
If Tyranitar is running jolly nature which is the most common one then it can outspeed and kill adamant Diggersby with Ice Punch if it is weakened slightly or with Aqua Tail with even less prior damage.
252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 242-286 (77.5 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Aqua Tail vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 290-342 (92.9 - 109.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Obviously both of these OHKO at +1
Breloom
Firstly, Breloom can't even OHKO without Life Orb (sash is a bit more common)
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 276-328 (80.9 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If Breloom does have a Life Orb or if Tyranitar is weakened slightly then it can still win if it is behind a substitute.
252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 236-278 (90 - 106.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (if it is Adamant it will always OHKO and if Jolly then it will always OHKO with stealth rock and sandstorm)
32- SpA Mega Tyranitar Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 214-252 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (less reliable and needs a bit of weakening, EVs will be explained a bit later)
Terrakion
Tyranitar either needs a boost or a substitute to deal with Terrakion.
252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 312-368 (96.5 - 113.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Jolly variants still have a 62.5% chance of OHKOing)
252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 282-332 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (needs a bit of weakening with jolly)
Obviously both OHKO at +1
Keldeo
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 318-376 (98.4 - 116.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 214-252 (66.2 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
Keldeo is the only one on this list that is beaten by Thunder Punch but it is still viable because of how common Keldeo is especially on offense where Tyranitar is a problem and because it hits other water types such as Azumarill, Mega Gyarados and Greninja and(assuming Jolly and +1)
Hippowdon
+1 252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 206-244 (49 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 248-292 (59 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
It takes a lot from Earthquake and Whirlwind is annoying too but it can just come back
4 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 168-200 (49.2 - 58.6%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Sand Force Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 218-258 (63.9 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Just because this was the set suggested)
Chesnaught
32- SpA Mega Tyranitar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chesnaught: 180-212 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
Assuming Chesnaught switches in (it should, it's a counter).
It isn't guaranteed that Tyranitar will have no boosts when Diggersby is brought in but in case it comes in safely:
If Tyranitar is running jolly nature which is the most common one then it can outspeed and kill adamant Diggersby with Ice Punch if it is weakened slightly or with Aqua Tail with even less prior damage.
252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 242-286 (77.5 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Aqua Tail vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 290-342 (92.9 - 109.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Obviously both of these OHKO at +1
Breloom
Firstly, Breloom can't even OHKO without Life Orb (sash is a bit more common)
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 276-328 (80.9 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If Breloom does have a Life Orb or if Tyranitar is weakened slightly then it can still win if it is behind a substitute.
252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 236-278 (90 - 106.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (if it is Adamant it will always OHKO and if Jolly then it will always OHKO with stealth rock and sandstorm)
32- SpA Mega Tyranitar Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 214-252 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (less reliable and needs a bit of weakening, EVs will be explained a bit later)
Terrakion
Tyranitar either needs a boost or a substitute to deal with Terrakion.
252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 312-368 (96.5 - 113.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Jolly variants still have a 62.5% chance of OHKOing)
252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 282-332 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (needs a bit of weakening with jolly)
Obviously both OHKO at +1
Keldeo
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 318-376 (98.4 - 116.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 214-252 (66.2 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
Keldeo is the only one on this list that is beaten by Thunder Punch but it is still viable because of how common Keldeo is especially on offense where Tyranitar is a problem and because it hits other water types such as Azumarill, Mega Gyarados and Greninja and(assuming Jolly and +1)
Hippowdon
+1 252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 206-244 (49 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 248-292 (59 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
It takes a lot from Earthquake and Whirlwind is annoying too but it can just come back
4 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 168-200 (49.2 - 58.6%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Sand Force Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 218-258 (63.9 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Just because this was the set suggested)
Chesnaught
32- SpA Mega Tyranitar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chesnaught: 180-212 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
Assuming Chesnaught switches in (it should, it's a counter).
Other
Fire Blast beats Skarmory and Ferrothorn and Scizor
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Tyranitar @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Punch
- Crunch
- Fire Blast
I have been using this lead set and it's really good. Ice Punch for Lando-T/Gliscor, Fire Blast for Skarmory/Ferrothorn (Not so much Scizor because it can hurt you a lot and setting rocks is more benefitial) and Stealth Rock for Stealth Rock. Taunt could also work to stop others from setting up hazards but the coverage is useful and Sand Rush Excadrill can spin anyway. Ice Beam could be used over Ice Punch but Ice punch is better against other things such as Thundurus.
So that's two roles it can perform extremely effectively
Spikes + 3 Attacks is an interesting niche for Roserade. It has, I believe, hardest hitting Hidden Power in the game; it can use any it wants as a 90 BP move. It has nice Special Attack, so Leaf Storm, Sludge Bomb, and "Flamethrower" will be hurting everything except for Chansey and Heatran. I feel like moving it to unranked when a) it isn't unusable by any means, and b) the metagame is about to switch to its favor isn't a great idea. I don't know, if we rank it this week, I'd probably give it a D as a unique offensive Spiker. It faces competition from Deoxys-S, who obviously boasts Stealth Rock, Taunt, Dual Screens, and immense Speed, but Roserade's sheer power can carve itself a small niche. Plus, it won't be in OU for much longer, so as a Spiker, it will really only face competition with Froslass. Both are D rank worthy now, and will likely fit in the C ranks in about a week.
You forgot about Conkeldurr which completely fucks over M-Tyranitar. I think M-Tyranitar is great, and I love using it, but I've found that it's horrible defensive typing really hurts it's chances of setting up. Also that quad fighting weakness is a bitch. A+ seems good.
Yeah, even with these calcs, it's not enough to push TTar to S. It has one viable set that isn't outclassed by its normal form, which is the DD sweeper set, like you posted. However, TTar needs Jolly to sweep, as otherwise it's outsped by a buttload of things. His great bulk is offset by his mediocre typing, which brings him to seven(?) weaknesses, one of which is fighting. He has severe 4 MSS and only has room for EQ / DD / SE / Ice Punch.S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.Mega Tyranitar A+ ----> S Rank
I'm suggesting Mega Tyranitar for S rank because it has few counters and it has viable ways to get around them (unless they're scarfed or sashed but the same goes for Charizard X who is also in S rank).
Tyranitar @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
This is the most common Tyranitar set. Most people run jolly nature but adamant is still viable. There are a few options for the last 2 slots in bold to help it get around some checks and counters. Ice Punch is there for Landorus-T and Gliscor while Earthquake is there for Aegislash to avoid King's Shield games.
It's good because of it's great bulk, typing and attack stat. Kind of has 4MSS but can be paired well with Deo-S (so can everything lol) to cover the pokemon that it can't beat itself.
(These are the checks and counters from the Victim Of The Week project in the OU forums)
Diggersby
It isn't guaranteed that Tyranitar will have no boosts when Diggersby is brought in but in case it comes in safely:
If Tyranitar is running jolly nature which is the most common one then it can outspeed and kill adamant Diggersby with Ice Punch if it is weakened slightly or with Aqua Tail with even less prior damage.
252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 242-286 (77.5 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Aqua Tail vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 290-342 (92.9 - 109.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Obviously both of these OHKO at +1
Breloom
Firstly, Breloom can't even OHKO without Life Orb (sash is a bit more common)
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 276-328 (80.9 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If Breloom does have a Life Orb or if Tyranitar is weakened slightly then it can still win if it is behind a substitute.
252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 236-278 (90 - 106.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (if it is Adamant it will always OHKO and if Jolly then it will always OHKO with stealth rock and sandstorm)
32- SpA Mega Tyranitar Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 214-252 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (less reliable and needs a bit of weakening, EVs will be explained a bit later)
Terrakion
Tyranitar either needs a boost or a substitute to deal with Terrakion.
252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 312-368 (96.5 - 113.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Jolly variants still have a 62.5% chance of OHKOing)
252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 282-332 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (needs a bit of weakening with jolly)
Obviously both OHKO at +1
Keldeo
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 318-376 (98.4 - 116.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 214-252 (66.2 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
Keldeo is the only one on this list that is beaten by Thunder Punch but it is still viable because of how common Keldeo is especially on offense where Tyranitar is a problem and because it hits other water types such as Azumarill, Mega Gyarados and Greninja and(assuming Jolly and +1)
Hippowdon
+1 252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 206-244 (49 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 248-292 (59 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
It takes a lot from Earthquake and Whirlwind is annoying too but it can just come back
4 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 168-200 (49.2 - 58.6%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Sand Force Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 218-258 (63.9 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Just because this was the set suggested)
Chesnaught
32- SpA Mega Tyranitar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chesnaught: 180-212 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
Assuming Chesnaught switches in (it should, it's a counter).
Other
Fire Blast beats Skarmory and Ferrothorn and Scizor
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Tyranitar @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Punch
- Crunch
- Fire Blast
I have been using this lead set and it's really good. Ice Punch for Lando-T/Gliscor, Fire Blast for Skarmory/Ferrothorn (Not so much Scizor because it can hurt you a lot and setting rocks is more benefitial) and Stealth Rock for Stealth Rock. Taunt could also work to stop others from setting up hazards but the coverage is useful and Sand Rush Excadrill can spin anyway. Ice Beam could be used over Ice Punch but Ice punch is better against other things such as Thundurus.
So that's two roles it can perform extremely effectively
He Keldeo calc with thunder punch is laughable. No one uses it because it hits only one thing that isn't even guaranteed to be on the opponents team. If anything, this post should be for Mega TTar dropping to A (which I support and may post on it later), but right now, S does not suit him at all. He doesn't run the meta and he's dead meat when not set up.
To be honest, I'm not sure why you'd run Mega Tyranitar over regular Tyranitar for this role. Sure, it has more bulk and speed, but the speed increase is really unnecessary given that it doesn't help you outspeed anything you're luring (besides Skarm who can't to jack to you anyway), and you're basically wasting a mega slot to do something Regular Tyrantiar can so perfectly well too (not to mention regular Tyranitar can hold a Smooth Rock, which makes it better on and teams).
Mega-Tyrantiar should really only be a DD sweeper, and it's really not S-worthy in that role. Sure, it has amazing bulk which really helps it get a DD or two off, but it can't setup over that many Pokemon due to the fact that its poor typing means that pretty much everything carries a move to hit it super-effectively. Most importantly, it suffers from a lot of competition from Mega Gyarados and Mega Chanrizard X. Neither of these have quite as much bulk, but they're better options in many other ways : MGyara's ability lets it break past the likes of Rotom-W and Quagsire while XZard's gives it a lot more power than its stats suggest. They also both have great defensive typings enabling them to wall and therefore setup on common threats, don't have to rely on an innacurate STAB to sweep, and aren't revenge killed nearly as easily. Yes, MTTar does have Sand to increase its bulk even further in order for it to set up more easily, but pre-MEvo Gyara's Intimidate achieves more or less the same effect. And lastly, unlike XZard, MTTar doesn't have any reliable recovery, which limits its survivability. It will, unlike its competetors, rarely be able to pull of more than one Dragon Dance.
MTtar just suffers from too much competition as a Mega DD sweeper to be worth putting in S. It's still a really bulky DD sweeper and a great win condition, so A+ is fine for it, though I honestly could see it dropping to A at this point, since it seems a bit more on the same level as Dragonite as it does XZard, at least to me.
Last edited:
For the last time, no more Dragalge talk, unless you can make a really convincing case, which none of the guys suggesting for Dragalge to be ranked have done so far.
I have seen enough arguments about Mega Mawile, but not about Tornadus-T, Mega Aggron, and Clefable. I would like to see the focus of the discussion to those Pokemon atm, because i will be making an update tomorrow or after tomorrow, and i want to see the community's opinion about them.
My opinion:
Tornadus-T should be B+. Regenerator + Flying-STAB + U-turn + awesome Speed + Knock Off is a superb combo. Torn-T can Knock Off the item from its checks and counters, and then slowly wear them down with U-turn, while being impossible to wear down in return. The fact that most MEvos don't want to switch into it makes it all the more effective, as there are almost zero Pokemon able to absorb Torn-T's Knock Offs. Hurricane + Heat Wave OHKO/2HKO most MEvos with SR up, namely Mega Mawile, Mega Charizard X (even SpD sets), Mega Gyarados, Mega Pinsir, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Scizor, Mega Venusaur, Mega Garchomp, Mega Medicham, Mega Heracross, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Absol, Mega Aggron, and Mega Alakazam. Mega Tyranitar is taken care of by U-turn + SR as it lacks recovery, leaving only Roost Mega Aero, RestTalk Ampharos, and Mega Manectric as Pokemon able to block Torn-T's Knock Off. Furthermore, Torn-T has really good special bulk with an Assault Vest equipped and is able to check a lot of top-tier threats, such as Landorus, Aegislash, Keldeo, Mega Venusaur, Gengar, Latios, and Latias. Talking about the Pokemon that Torn-T checks, it is one of the best checks to Landorus that stall teams can carry. Finally, its great Speed tier and decent power allows it to act as a revenge killer against weakened offensive Pokemon, a trait appreciated a lot by defensive teams. And all this is about the AV set.
LO Torn-T is another great set on rain offense, and between 100% accurate Hurricane, Fighting coverage, Knock Off, and Taunt, is really difficult to wall. However, it's not a must on rain teams, and thus i believe is fine one rank below Politoed. The AV set however is definitely a B+ Pokemon in my eyes, as it is very effective at stalling out its checks and counters during the game.
It biggest flaws are reliance on a 70% accurate move for STAB and SR weakness, but it doesn't need a lot of support to make those problems insignificant.
Clefable: It's a nightmare to deal with for teams without a hard check or counter, but on the other hand some of its checks and counters are pretty amazing (Excadrill, Mega Scizor, Iron Head / Flash Cannon Aegislash, Bisharp, Iron Head Mega Mawile, CB and Taunt BU Talonflame, Flash Cannon or Roar Heatran, offensive tank Mega Venusaur). I could see it fitting to either rank, so i will wait and see what you guys have to say about it.
I have seen enough arguments about Mega Mawile, but not about Tornadus-T, Mega Aggron, and Clefable. I would like to see the focus of the discussion to those Pokemon atm, because i will be making an update tomorrow or after tomorrow, and i want to see the community's opinion about them.
My opinion:
Tornadus-T should be B+. Regenerator + Flying-STAB + U-turn + awesome Speed + Knock Off is a superb combo. Torn-T can Knock Off the item from its checks and counters, and then slowly wear them down with U-turn, while being impossible to wear down in return. The fact that most MEvos don't want to switch into it makes it all the more effective, as there are almost zero Pokemon able to absorb Torn-T's Knock Offs. Hurricane + Heat Wave OHKO/2HKO most MEvos with SR up, namely Mega Mawile, Mega Charizard X (even SpD sets), Mega Gyarados, Mega Pinsir, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Scizor, Mega Venusaur, Mega Garchomp, Mega Medicham, Mega Heracross, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Absol, Mega Aggron, and Mega Alakazam. Mega Tyranitar is taken care of by U-turn + SR as it lacks recovery, leaving only Roost Mega Aero, RestTalk Ampharos, and Mega Manectric as Pokemon able to block Torn-T's Knock Off. Furthermore, Torn-T has really good special bulk with an Assault Vest equipped and is able to check a lot of top-tier threats, such as Landorus, Aegislash, Keldeo, Mega Venusaur, Gengar, Latios, and Latias. Talking about the Pokemon that Torn-T checks, it is one of the best checks to Landorus that stall teams can carry. Finally, its great Speed tier and decent power allows it to act as a revenge killer against weakened offensive Pokemon, a trait appreciated a lot by defensive teams. And all this is about the AV set.
LO Torn-T is another great set on rain offense, and between 100% accurate Hurricane, Fighting coverage, Knock Off, and Taunt, is really difficult to wall. However, it's not a must on rain teams, and thus i believe is fine one rank below Politoed. The AV set however is definitely a B+ Pokemon in my eyes, as it is very effective at stalling out its checks and counters during the game.
It biggest flaws are reliance on a 70% accurate move for STAB and SR weakness, but it doesn't need a lot of support to make those problems insignificant.
Clefable: It's a nightmare to deal with for teams without a hard check or counter, but on the other hand some of its checks and counters are pretty amazing (Excadrill, Mega Scizor, Iron Head / Flash Cannon Aegislash, Bisharp, Iron Head Mega Mawile, CB and Taunt BU Talonflame, Flash Cannon or Roar Heatran, offensive tank Mega Venusaur). I could see it fitting to either rank, so i will wait and see what you guys have to say about it.
Last edited:
Can we talk about Pokemon that should reach a conclusive ranking? For example, Landorus is clearly an S-Rank Pokemon, and 99.9% of people will probably agree with that, so I would think that he's reached a conclusive ranking. This way, we can avoid arguments about some Pokemon moving up/down when most people will shoot the idea down anyways.
Even if Mola did have Heal Bell/Aromatheropy it has a poor match-up against Aegislash, takes a big chunk of damage from a Shadow Ball and can only hurt it with Mirror Coat off a predicted Shadow Ball. Loses to SD and SubToxic.
Of course it's not a 100% solid Aegislash counter, nothing is. Point still stands that it can handle Aegislash better than the other clerics. Chansey can't touch it, Cleric Clefable can't do much either and flat out loses if it has Steel coverage. Umbreon can at least take on the most common KS + 3 Attacks.
I believe I didn't see alot of discussion on them cause it seemed as if alot of people didn't disagree bout the placings. Or I at least hope instead of getting caught in Mega Maw chaos.
I still think Meggron should stay in C+ as it isn't capable of fitting in with fellow megas Amph and Alakazam in B- rank as it is crippled of being a physical absorber through not having recovery and no real compensation. Rhyperior resides in B- and can be an apt comparison except Rhyperior makes up for it through its ability to compensate for low sp bulk and excellent STAB combination. Agrron is just not capable of moving into the same rank as it doesn't do enough to help compensate for its lack of recovery outside of gargantuan physical bulk.
Clefable is a pain and always has been with Fairy typing just making it sillier. One of my more hated sets was Cosmic Power, Charge Beam, Stored Power and Moonlight just because it gets a little retarded fighting but is overwhelmed. Clefable is able to be a great many things and arguably can be one of stalls best additions this Gen and I can see it in both rank but the versatility of what it can do is made it A+ ranking in my eyes but it can go either way.
Torn T should have been B+ rank months ago (cries for it being so in the original VR thread) as the meta is still in same state I believe for him to abuse. So what if his greatest STAB is still 70% accuracy, its still a powerful option and with appropriate support (Damp Rock Deo-S with and or Poli) and see it blow hellish winds upon your enemies team. It matches very well alongside Mega Garchomp in B+ ranking as they both function magnificently in their appropriate weathers and are lesser outside of them but still impactful.
so yah, Meggron to stay in C+ due to not enough resources it can abuse to allow it to be better than just superb physical stallwart, Clefable can go either way but A+ still seems fine, and get Torn-T to B+ already.
I still think Meggron should stay in C+ as it isn't capable of fitting in with fellow megas Amph and Alakazam in B- rank as it is crippled of being a physical absorber through not having recovery and no real compensation. Rhyperior resides in B- and can be an apt comparison except Rhyperior makes up for it through its ability to compensate for low sp bulk and excellent STAB combination. Agrron is just not capable of moving into the same rank as it doesn't do enough to help compensate for its lack of recovery outside of gargantuan physical bulk.
Clefable is a pain and always has been with Fairy typing just making it sillier. One of my more hated sets was Cosmic Power, Charge Beam, Stored Power and Moonlight just because it gets a little retarded fighting but is overwhelmed. Clefable is able to be a great many things and arguably can be one of stalls best additions this Gen and I can see it in both rank but the versatility of what it can do is made it A+ ranking in my eyes but it can go either way.
Torn T should have been B+ rank months ago (cries for it being so in the original VR thread) as the meta is still in same state I believe for him to abuse. So what if his greatest STAB is still 70% accuracy, its still a powerful option and with appropriate support (Damp Rock Deo-S with and or Poli) and see it blow hellish winds upon your enemies team. It matches very well alongside Mega Garchomp in B+ ranking as they both function magnificently in their appropriate weathers and are lesser outside of them but still impactful.
so yah, Meggron to stay in C+ due to not enough resources it can abuse to allow it to be better than just superb physical stallwart, Clefable can go either way but A+ still seems fine, and get Torn-T to B+ already.
Last edited:
I don't really see at the moment any reason to change Clefables rank at the moment although it is closer to S- than A. It is a very effective mon in the metagame, able to fit on a variety of teams with a variety of roles and can easily sweep unprepared teams but with SR Exca on the rise and Offensive Venu getting some love, Clefable seems to have a hard time doing much of anything, especially with Tran existing. It might sound from what I've said that it should drop because of the many common and viable checks and counters it has but in practice Clefable still does a fuckload of work despite counters being on the opposing team because of the amazing resilience it has. I played a match a few days ago using CM Clefable against a SO team with Both SR Exca and SD MegaZor. I was able to bring it in multiple times throughout the match and cripple half the opponents team, his Excadrill died trying to stop it (Clefable Lives Adamant Iron Head at max hp) and I was able to bring it back in on his Hippowdon many times to bring it back up to full health, eventually sweeping his team with it after repeating the process. I think its an amazing mon that can sweep many teams and support many more but it has limited moveslots to choose what it wants to do and it doesn't have the best bulk, meaning it get 2HKO'ed by many offensive mons even with invested Defense, A+ is fine.
While I disagree with Mega Tyranitar alone for S, I do think Tyranitar as a whole might be S-rank worthy, I actually brought this up a lot of pages ago but no one talked about it (since someone brought up Charizard Y afterwards). It can run many effective sets from Band, Mega, Stealth Rock, AV to Scarf and coupled with it's huge movepool it leaves your opponent guessing what it's going to do. From my experience Tyranitar is one of the easiest Pokemon to fit in a team as it has an amazing ability and can counter and trap stuff like Talonflame, Latios, Latias, etc, makes for a deadly combo with Excadrill and it's ability also helps against Drizzle Swift Swim teams or you can go Mega if you want and sweep teams. Not to mention Tyranitar has ridiculous bulk, even defensively it can take hits. I think Tyranitar tops the usage list every month for a reason only behind Aegislash and Thundurus-I. I really think it fits the S-rank criteria. It's flaws are overcomed by everything it brings to the table imo.
Last edited:
I'm really against Mega Tyranitar, and tyranitar as a whole in S rank. It just has too many weaknesses and is too slow, and is thus easily exploited and checked. It's too simple to just smack on an azu or any mach puncher on a team and basically be set against tyranitar, b/c 90% of the time, you are! Sure, it has a lot of sets which can catch you by surprise, like band, scarf, chople, etc, but it just doesn't seem to me to be S rank quality. I wouldn't really call it versatile either because no matter what items you're holding, you still use similar moves, and thus, you have pretty much the same checks and counters.
As far as mega tyranitar goes, I think you can easily just put any mach puncher on ur team and call it a day. It's a little too easy to check for an S rank sweeper, it has a little bit too many solid switch-ins to deserve such a high rank. Imo its at home in A+
However, while i'm not advocating it for S rank, there's something I want to clear up about mega tyranitar.
Some people seem to think that mega tyranitar's weaknesses hold it back from setting up or something. They seem to be using that as a defense, as their main argument to make mega tyranitar look frail or something. I think mega tyranitar's natural bulk is being underestimated a little too much here.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 229-273 (66.9 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Yeah, that's one of the tier's strongest water attacks, and mega tyranitar can quite easily just take the hit and set up. That's right, forget strong neutral moves or whatever, mega tyranitar can set up while taking STAB SE moves! I mean come on, that's pretty darn fantastic.
Its natural bulk may cover its large amount of weaknesses a little, but I still can't let it slide, and thus it should stay in A+.
As far as mega tyranitar goes, I think you can easily just put any mach puncher on ur team and call it a day. It's a little too easy to check for an S rank sweeper, it has a little bit too many solid switch-ins to deserve such a high rank. Imo its at home in A+
However, while i'm not advocating it for S rank, there's something I want to clear up about mega tyranitar.
Some people seem to think that mega tyranitar's weaknesses hold it back from setting up or something. They seem to be using that as a defense, as their main argument to make mega tyranitar look frail or something. I think mega tyranitar's natural bulk is being underestimated a little too much here.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 229-273 (66.9 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Yeah, that's one of the tier's strongest water attacks, and mega tyranitar can quite easily just take the hit and set up. That's right, forget strong neutral moves or whatever, mega tyranitar can set up while taking STAB SE moves! I mean come on, that's pretty darn fantastic.
Its natural bulk may cover its large amount of weaknesses a little, but I still can't let it slide, and thus it should stay in A+.
- Status